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ajafoofoo
03-06-2004, 10:59 PM
I flew the fw190d9 all day today and I must say I never had my gunsight shot out so much as in AEP.

Every time it gets shot out it is an attack from my 6. About 80% of the time I take damage from my 6 the gunsight gets knocked out.

This is silly when comparing how often gunsights get knocked out in other planes.

In fact, I have not lost my gunsight in any of the other AEP planes yet. I've flown the p38, spit, and p51 a lot online since I got AEP. Not once have I lost a gunsight in any of these planes. Yet the fw190 loses the gunsight the second you take hits.

There is definitely a damage model bug causing the fw190 gunsight to be knocked out more often than it should.

ajafoofoo
03-06-2004, 10:59 PM
I flew the fw190d9 all day today and I must say I never had my gunsight shot out so much as in AEP.

Every time it gets shot out it is an attack from my 6. About 80% of the time I take damage from my 6 the gunsight gets knocked out.

This is silly when comparing how often gunsights get knocked out in other planes.

In fact, I have not lost my gunsight in any of the other AEP planes yet. I've flown the p38, spit, and p51 a lot online since I got AEP. Not once have I lost a gunsight in any of these planes. Yet the fw190 loses the gunsight the second you take hits.

There is definitely a damage model bug causing the fw190 gunsight to be knocked out more often than it should.

Hunde_3.JG51
03-06-2004, 11:26 PM
ajafoofoo, I posted this once already and it dropped off quickly. Hopefully someone will see this as others have mentioned it also. Out of curiousity, which 190 were you flying? I noticed my gunsight being shot out ALOT in the A-4 and I assume it carries over to the other models.

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Zen--
03-07-2004, 12:31 AM
The gunsight getting knocked out is the scourge of the Ta152 and the D9, in both models it happens with alarming frequency.

-Zen-

CARBONFREEZE
03-07-2004, 02:08 AM
Today I was hit by two 20mm cannon shells in my horizontal stabalizer in the fw190a5, it knocked my gunsight out. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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CARBONFREEZE
03-07-2004, 02:09 AM
Might I add that I like one thing you have done with the Fw190 Oleg..

Very little as far as flight model changes.

Finially! Something I can get used to..

Russian aircraft require skill to fly.
German aircraft require ten times that skill, and one hundred times the patience!

If guns are responsible for crime, my keyboard must be responsible for my spelling!

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Gryphonne
03-07-2004, 04:11 AM
Being an FW only pilot i must agree with the above, it doesn't matter what model i'm flying, the second it gets hit there is a 80-90% chance my gunsight gets knocked out.

Also, it _seems_ to me overheating has increased to a no more realistic level and the MG151/20 decreased in power again.

I tested the MG151/20 with a couple of people online (although, as it was not documented by us, i have no results to post, sadly), the La5 pre-V2 was tough, but with a well aimed burst the tail was full of holes, now i can barely scratch it.

Regards,

Gryph

EDIT: spellingghh

Bewolf
03-07-2004, 04:20 AM
Yeah, i have the "feeling" the MG151/20 lacks punch now. Nothing to prove though.
The gunsight issue is serious though.

Bewolf

Never discuss with stupid people.
They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.

Tvrdi
03-07-2004, 07:32 AM
well, i posted that gunsight knocking issue before and oil spreding in me109 (and that goes for all LW planes in FB)...and what happened I was accused Im a luftwhiner and I fly for VVS squad lol

VW-IceFire
03-07-2004, 07:38 AM
Sounds very much like a bug...definately an annoying one. I imagine the rest of the DM is now MUCH improved however...

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ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 09:38 AM
I flew the d9 mostly. I do remember the ta losing the gunsight the 2 times I flew it (from AAA fire too).

plumps_
03-07-2004, 10:43 AM
Has anybody recorded some offline tracks (.trk format) and watched them in Arcade mode (Arcade=1 in conf.ini)? Will the gunsight be knocked out without one of the arrows touching it? If that's the case I recommend that you send the zipped track to il2beta@1c.ru.

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Tvrdi
03-07-2004, 11:08 AM
plumps..and where are those arrows in vvs damage model... impacting the gunsight..no there is no arrows impacting the gunsight there..only partially in la5 series....

ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 11:09 AM
I don't have a clue how to do that. I haven't flown it offline yet.

crazyivan1970
03-07-2004, 11:11 AM
It`s a pretty cool feature i think.. but if you really think about it... if something knocked down gunsight... in 50% of situations it will knock down pilots head too. Just a thought http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 11:14 AM
I haven't flown any yaks or las yet, so I can't say if they lose gunsight less or more.

But I'm sure as hell that the p51, p47, spit, and p38 do not lose gunsight as much if at all (I haven't lost one yet online in any of these planes).

Do you have to be in arcade mode to view tracks recorded in that mode? I'd like to see this if anyone can show what is really happening.

ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 11:16 AM
Ivan, the problem is the gunsight getting knocked out even if the damage was no where near the gunsight.

I've had people spray me with 50's and I hear a couple hits with a few holes appearing in one wing. But guess what, the gunsight almost always ends up knocked out too.

It's silly.

crazyivan1970
03-07-2004, 11:21 AM
aja, to really tell where you`v been hit you have to turn on arcade in config, On line play is bad example for everything due to many things. Just saying.

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Gunner_361st
03-07-2004, 11:25 AM
I was attacking bombers in a FW190-A4 and I got my gunsight shot out by their gunners as well. I am just glad it was the gunsight and not my head. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was still able to shoot down the bombers though. I agree, if the FW190 sight is bugged in the regard that it breaks every time the plane is hit, it should be fixed.

As for the effectiveness of cannons... You guys must have noticed the damage modeling in general has been changed. Aircraft are now much less likely to go down due to structural failure (wing or tail coming off) and more likely to be shot down due to engine failure/fire, fuel tank fires, control surfaces destroyed, or pilot death.

This would seem more realistic to me, because anyone who has watched WW2 guncam footage has seen that the big plane destroyer was fire. ~S~

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ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 11:30 AM
Ivan, take up the fw190d9 offline or online.

You'll soon realise the gunsight is getting killed almost everytime you take any damage.

I'm going to try and get a track in arcade mode. Maybe the new complex damage model has some goofy bullet funnel pointing at the gunsight.

crazyivan1970
03-07-2004, 11:36 AM
Now ya talking http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif tracks in the best way to prove ppl wrong!

I did fly A8 and D9 and got gunsight shot off..patially with my head lol. But you know what my problem is..being a full time 109 jockey for over 2 years i got use to knocked down gunsight and oil all over lol...maybe that`s why it doesn`t apear to me so shocking hehe. Also i do agree that sight shouldn`t come off when tail was hit lol...we just have to prove it and i`m sure it will be fixed, right?

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

plumps_
03-07-2004, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Do you have to be in arcade mode to view tracks recorded in that mode? I'd like to see this if anyone can show what is really happening.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You need to be in that mode to watch them, but not to record them. With Arcade=1 you can see the arrows in any .trk you have previously recorded.

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ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 11:58 AM
Ok, I made two tracks.

One with p51 were I let another p51 fill my cockpit with 50s. My pilot never died, and the gunsight never got knocked out despite numerous arrows passing through it.

But when I use fw190d9, the second an arrow passes anywhere near the gunsight (regardless of how much metal it passed through before getting there) it knocks the gunsight out.

These arrows passed right through my pilot, didn't kill my pilot but for some damn reason still register on the gunsight. This is an obvious bug.

There is a HUGE and I mean HUGE disparity between the fw series damage modeling and other planes when it comes to gunsight getting knocked out. The 5 times I let the p51 take bullets to it's cockpit, it never lost the gunsight. The fw190 lost it every time and quickly.

Something is very wrong.

crazyivan1970
03-07-2004, 12:19 PM
zip it and send it to Oleg.

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 12:57 PM
I sent it to Oleg. I'd like to hear him respond to this.

The track shows an arrow pass through rear of cockpit and over gunsight in fw, the arrow is probably 3 or 4 inches above gunsight but knocks it out anyways.

The second track I sent him shows a p51 take numerous arrows near and right through the p51 gunsight, but it never gets knocked out.

These aren't the only two tracks I made. I made about 8. And every one shows the same thing, the fw190 lose the gunsight ever time an arrow gets near it.

The p51 tracks show the p51 gunsight taking numerous arrows and not one time have I gotten the p51 gunsight knocked out. I can't get it knocked out as hard as I try.

The fw190 sight is being knocked constantly. You could have an arrow enter the tail and if it's path lines up with gunsight, it still knocks out the gunsight without injuring the pilot.

This obviuosly bugged. I'm sure Oleg will see that.

Hunde_3.JG51
03-07-2004, 04:51 PM
Just to put my 2 cents in again. This is obviously a bug, I fly the 190 almost exclusively and today I played on arcade mode to see what was going on. I have arrows going through cockpit that are nowhere near my gunsight and it is being knocked out. It is very rare that you get damage in cockpit and retain your gunsight. Trust me, this is wrong, not something we are making up.

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Recon_609IAP
03-07-2004, 05:05 PM
flew for an hour - lost my gunsight all the time.


Is it me, or does the '41 spit outclimb a '42 190a4 ??

S!
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Recon_609IAP
03-07-2004, 05:07 PM
this DM gets worse to me as we go.

Continually we are back to DM's that are easy to destroy the Germans fighters - but the Allied fighters just eat 20mm's.

Is this going to always be this way in il2? I read books of Lufftwaffe pilots destroying aircraft in one pass.

In FB, it happens, but more often than not - all you get a leaking oil !!! C'mon! That is ridiculous.

S!
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HQ1
03-07-2004, 05:17 PM
so i think maybe the problem happened on the DM of allied ac and german ac not on MG151/MK108.

ajafoofoo
03-07-2004, 05:54 PM
The most simple concise way to explain the bug is this.

The arrows in arcade mode only indicate the trajectory of the hits. It doesn't mean the bullets register damage along the entire path of the arrow.

But there is a bug in the fw190's that if the trajectory of the arrow lines up with the gunsight, the gunsight always gets knocked out.

This means arrows that pass through the pilot that dont injure the pilot will still register as a hit on the gunsight and knock it out.

So, the bullet registered as not even entering the cockpit (probably stopped in metal in rear of fuselage) but still registered on the gunsight simply because the arrow intersects it.

Anyone can try this, go in arcade mode and let a p51 fill the fw190 with 50's. Slow down time or pause it in playback of track and you'll see arrows that pass right through the head, stomach, and chest of pilot that don't injure but still knock the gunsight.

Hunde_3.JG51
03-07-2004, 06:04 PM
Recon, I hate to say this but I have also been having a hard time downing many allied (mainly VVS) planes. I thought weapons and DM's in 1.22 were pretty good but in AEP I notice a change. So much so that I have been playing on arcade mode to see what is going on. What I have found is that USAAF planes like P-47, P-38, and P-51 seem pretty accurate, while some VVS planes like Lagg-3, Yaks, and others seem to bee too tough. Yet planes like Migs and La-s DM seems the same. P-40 and P-39 seem the same. Spitfire engine is very vulnerable but body and wings sustain alot of punishment. I think if flown by human the Spit would be crippled as external damage is present, just rare to get structural failures. The Lagg-3 '43 annoyed me so much I flew against it about 40 times in a row and the results were discouraging. So I took up a Lagg-3 myself and proceeded to eat alot of mg and 20mm rounds with little effect on plane and FM. I also hit some planes like the P-63 with 30mm rounds (I know they were because I used Ta-152 and just the Mk.108) in places that should have caused massive damage and it did very little.

To be honest I have no idea how the Allied weapons are fairing against German planes (input is welcomed and encouraged), have't tested that out yet. To me it seems some things have certainly changed in weapon/DM effects, just not sure what.

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Hunde_3.JG51
03-07-2004, 08:56 PM
Dp.

[This message was edited by Hunde_3.JG51 on Sun March 07 2004 at 08:12 PM.]

WWMaxGunz
03-07-2004, 09:26 PM
We can hope these things are addressed in the upcoming AEP patch!

I like how Kyrule tested by leeting himself get hits and saw how it flew. I think that is a very good way because there's no guessing as to the effects, or lack of in this case. I wonder if this would be a way... check rollrate and climb, take a pile of hits, recheck rollrate and climb for differences, repeat as necessary. Time for posting then beer.


Neal

Gunner_361st
03-07-2004, 09:53 PM
There have been a lot of damage modeling changes, for sure.

Overall it seems more realistic, but there are most certainly some bugs.

The FW190 gunsight seems to be one of them.

Another one (at least it seems so to me) is the FW190's rear fuselage... I hit with 5 37mm cannon shell from the P39-N1, and it just made big holes. o.o That really surprised me. Then, I opened up with the machine guns, and I disabled his engine in only a few seconds!

This is just a one-time incident though... Bugs are bugs. Overall it seems to me all AC are less likely to suffer structural failure now and more prone to fires in the engine, fuel tanks, etc.

And recon, I'd look around for that one Spitfire climb rate thread.. I did play with that, and the Spitfire MKVB sure did climb with the FW190A4 :| Doesn't seem right, but I am not going to say I know it is wrong because thats rude and presumptious, and I know for sure Oleg+Team know better.

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VW-IceFire
03-07-2004, 10:08 PM
So perhaps the weapons haven't been touched but some global variables for DM's have had something changed.

I'm sure the fact that the patch that was supposed to come out right at release time will probably be held back just long enough to figure out some of the bigs that user testing exposes and then fix them up.

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fartdivinewind
03-08-2004, 11:26 AM
Bump

Oleg has to know bout this gunsight bug.

fartdivinewind
03-08-2004, 07:03 PM
Wish oleg would respond to this.

I think everyone agrees this needs to be adressed.

Oleg_Maddox
03-09-2004, 05:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ajafoofoo:
I flew the fw190d9 all day today and I must say I never had my gunsight shot out so much as in AEP.

Every time it gets shot out it is an attack from my 6. About 80% of the time I take damage from my 6 the gunsight gets knocked out.

This is silly when comparing how often gunsights get knocked out in other planes.

In fact, I have not lost my gunsight in any of the other AEP planes yet. I've flown the p38, spit, and p51 a lot online since I got AEP. Not once have I lost a gunsight in any of these planes. Yet the fw190 loses the gunsight the second you take hits.

There is definitely a damage model bug causing the fw190 gunsight to be knocked out more often than it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Confirmed here with the test in our office.
Will be fixed.

You all should understand why so much time take modeling of Complex damage model..... its hundreds of new pices that need to be integrated in a code for each aircraft or each type of aircraft.

Say its why was missed selfprotected fuel tanks in MiGs and Yaks ..... Also will be fixed soon with add-on/patch.

Hunde_3.JG51
03-09-2004, 06:15 AM
Thanks Oleg, great to hear bug has been rooted out and I understand how hard it must be with such a huge amount of programming. And thanks again for the complex DM, its great.

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269GA-Veltro
03-09-2004, 08:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ajafoofoo:
I flew the fw190d9 all day today and I must say I never had my gunsight shot out so much as in AEP.

Every time it gets shot out it is an attack from my 6. About 80% of the time I take damage from my 6 the gunsight gets knocked out.

This is silly when comparing how often gunsights get knocked out in other planes.

In fact, I have not lost my gunsight in any of the other AEP planes yet. I've flown the p38, spit, and p51 a lot online since I got AEP. Not once have I lost a gunsight in any of these planes. Yet the fw190 loses the gunsight the second you take hits.

There is definitely a damage model bug causing the fw190 gunsight to be knocked out more often than it should.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Confirmed here with the test in our office.
Will be fixed.

You all should understand why so much time take modeling of Complex damage model..... its hundreds of new pices that need to be integrated in a code for each aircraft or each type of aircraft.

Say its why was missed selfprotected fuel tanks in MiGs and Yaks ..... Also will be fixed soon with add-on/patch.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Oleg.

Best Regards.

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crazyivan1970
03-09-2004, 09:06 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Zen--
03-09-2004, 09:20 AM
What? Just when I was getting good at no gunsight deflection shooting? Sigh.



Thanks Oleg for looking into this and most importantly, thanks for a complex DM that allows glitches to exist in the first place. May sound weird, but I enjoy having my cannons jammed, and the engine shot out. I've also realized that a lot of the pieces that fly off the 190 when hit are actually important.

Imagine that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Zen-

ajafoofoo
03-09-2004, 09:26 AM
Thank you Oleg.

A.K.Davis
03-09-2004, 10:12 AM
Thanks Oleg.

--AKD

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Hunde_3.JG51
03-09-2004, 01:46 PM
The funny thing is that I posted this bug the day after AEP was released. If you dig it up you will find exactly "zero" responses to it. Just thought it was funny that I noticed this one day into AEP. Here we have beautiful new Spitfire, P-38, Ta-152, He-162, P-63, etc, and what do I do? Spend hours flying around in the A-4 and A-5 to look for changes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I'm sick, I need help.

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faustnik
03-09-2004, 02:49 PM
It's a real problem Hunde. I'll try a new a/c for 5 minutes and then hop back into the old 190A. I only think of new a/c in terms of how to shoot them down.


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