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ElAurens
12-20-2003, 09:47 AM
I am involved in the repair/restoration of a Lockheed T33 that has been on display at my local airport since 1965. It was recently damaged in a storm, so we are going to bring her back...

In doing research on the type I have discovered, much to my suprise, that the P/F80-T33 series aircraft were the "stealth fighters" of their day. Apparently they had quite small radar signatures for their day, and the radar sets of the time had real trouble "seeing" them. If there was any kind of precipitation at all, (rain or snow) they were totally unseen on radar! Areas of heavy ground clutter also obscured them as well.

Really surprising, considering the time frame they were developed in.


I wonder how the "radar" flak gunners in FB will treat them?

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BlitzPig_EL

ElAurens
12-20-2003, 09:47 AM
I am involved in the repair/restoration of a Lockheed T33 that has been on display at my local airport since 1965. It was recently damaged in a storm, so we are going to bring her back...

In doing research on the type I have discovered, much to my suprise, that the P/F80-T33 series aircraft were the "stealth fighters" of their day. Apparently they had quite small radar signatures for their day, and the radar sets of the time had real trouble "seeing" them. If there was any kind of precipitation at all, (rain or snow) they were totally unseen on radar! Areas of heavy ground clutter also obscured them as well.

Really surprising, considering the time frame they were developed in.


I wonder how the "radar" flak gunners in FB will treat them?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.flightjacket.com/images/AVGlogoBlue.jpg

BlitzPig_EL

SlickStick
12-20-2003, 10:24 AM
Interesting, El.

I've recently been reading about the P-80 a bit and since I've only been a WWII history buff for a short time, I did not know that Richard Bong was killed in a P-80 that malfunctioned shortly after takeoff. Sad end for America's Top WWII Ace.

I'm looking forward to flying it, though. Speaking about radar, I wonder if FB will ever implement radar.

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SlickStick
12-20-2003, 10:31 AM
Not to detract from the P-80, but I just wanted to add this little thing about the day Bong died and edit doesn't seem to work for me.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

THE DAY THEY DROPPED THE BOMB ON HIROSHIMA

A Recollection by Robert Lampe

August 6,1945 was the 2nd day of a 3 day pass I had from Camp Roberts, California where I was stationed at the time. My custom had been to visit a friend who had been wounded on Okinawa and was recuperating at Birmingham General Hospital, just outside of Van Nuys, California

I had visited some friends at the mouth of Wildwood Canyon in Burbank earlier in the day and learned that a terrific bomb had been dropped on Japan. Not attaching much significance to this I finished my visit and started for Van Nuys. About 5:00PM, I was heading west on Victory Boulevard about 1 mile past the Lockheed Air Terminal,trying to thumb a ride. At that time I saw the 2nd jet plane of my life, which happened to be one of this country's first, a Lockheed P-80 "Shooting Star".

The plane flew practically over the top of me, very low, to the south and banking east in a big loop and back to the terminal. At this time I continued to walk west hoping to catch a ride but not having much luck.

As I headed west I could hear the jet coming back toward me from the north having finished a big loop. The sound of the engine made me sense that something was wrong, and as I looked up at the very low-flying plane I could see the pilot trying to pull back the canopy. It seemed he was struggling to keep the craft airborne against a tremendous pull that was bringing the plane to earth on the left wing and nose. The impact bounced the plane at least 50 feet into the air at which time it exploded into a black cloud of smoke. The impact of the crash was among a lot of houses that I estimated at no more than 1/2 mile south of Victory Boulevard.

I climbed a wire fence and headed for the crash site. Coming to a swamp I skirted to the left but did not run out of the swamp. The crash shocked me to the point that I did not want to believe that a man was flying the plane but I knew better because I had seen his face.

On reaching Victory Boulevard once again, within moments, a car stopped and picked me up. The driver happened to be an engineer from Lockheed and we discussed the crash as he drove me to the hospital to see my pal, Steve Matosich. Naturally the first thing I did was brief Steve on the crash and very little was said about the bomb.

Later in the evening, perhaps 7:00PM we heard on the radio that the test pilot was none other than Major Richard (Joe) Bong, ace-of-aces of the United States having destoyed 40 enemy aircraft.

Even today, after all these years, this tragedy which I witnessed as a 20 year old Army Buck Sergeant is the 1st thing I think of on THE DAY THEY DROPPED THE BOMB ON HIROSHIMA.

In all probability I am one of the last, if not THE last, person to see (Joe) Bong alive as he attempted to pull back the canopy but not making an attempt to exit the plane. He made sure the plane would miss the houses "ON THE DAY THEY DROPPED THE BOMB ON HIROSHIMA," a true American hero.

Robert Lampe
Anaconda, Montana

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ElAurens
12-21-2003, 02:46 PM
Thanks for the story...

There is still confusion over the cause of that crash. the widely known theory is that a fuel door was not latched, but who knows really.

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BlitzPig_EL

adlabs_6
12-21-2003, 04:21 PM
Thanks for both of these posts. I've enjoyed them.

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p1ngu666
12-21-2003, 05:27 PM
good read, bit sad tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
i woulda thought a mossie would be good agaist radar, not much metal http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cajun76
12-22-2003, 01:25 AM
yeah, but most anything with spinning blades just light radar up like a Christmas tree. They've been trying to minimize it for years, using cabon composites and such, but it's still a lot noisier than a/c without exposed blades.

Think about the shape of the P-80. It's small, and the intakes don't allow radar a line of sight shot at the compressor, which is a big factor for stealth properties.

Good hunting,
Cajun76

"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."
-Aristotle


Meanwhile, in the 13th century:

BOOM! Yeah, Alright you primitive screwheads, listen up. See this? This is my BOOMSTICK!! It's a 12 gauge, double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about $109.95. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right, shop smart, shop S-Mart. YOU GOT THAT!? Now I swear, the next one of you primates, E-ven TOUCHES me..... - Ash

olaleier
12-22-2003, 07:09 AM
I don't know that much about Bong's crash, but
those early jets were very moody engine-wise.

Those typical 50s nose intake jets killed alot of young aviators.

Gibbage1
12-22-2003, 09:46 AM
Bongs crash was the result of a loose fuel cap, not engine problems. The fuel cap just behind the canopy came off and spilled fuel all over the back of the engine resulting in an explosion shortly after takeoff.

Gib

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by olaleier:
I don't know that much about Bong's crash, but
those early jets were very moody engine-wise.

Those typical 50s nose intake jets killed alot of young aviators.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VW-IceFire
12-22-2003, 03:37 PM
The Mosquito was also known for being a sort of stealthy aircraft for the day...I guess the almost all wood construction had a lot to do with absorbing radar and reducing the signature significantly. I guess some of the Yak models would also benefit.

- IceFire
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olaleier
12-22-2003, 04:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Bongs crash was the result of a loose fuel cap, not engine problems. The fuel cap just behind the canopy came off and spilled fuel all over the back of the engine resulting in an explosion shortly after takeoff.

Gib <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I've heard so many stories where a tiny little mistake made a big jet go down. Dangerous beasts to both friend and foe.

horseback
12-23-2003, 09:29 AM
As a longtime radar maintenance/repair?test guy I have to respond to the comment about wood being radar absorbent. Wood is transparent to radar, RAM (radar absorbent material) is a whole other animal.

Given the relatively weak transmitters / receivers used in German radars during the war, the engines, weaponry and piping coupled with the all wood airframe of the Mossie made it hard to detect. Shape & size of the reflecting target is also a factor, smooth blended surfaces (like the P-80 at most angles) reflecting less energy back than square angles. or large flat(ish) surfaces.

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944