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View Full Version : The KI 84c does a snap roll in 1.7sec.????



Blackdog5555
04-24-2004, 12:45 PM
I did several snap roll test on the KI84c with a stopwatch at 300 mph at various altitudes. I found that it performs a snap roll at all altitudes in 1.7 second. Can that be right? I've tried to do web searches for data on the KI84c but to no avail. I'm sure there is data out there so can anyone help me. I just cant believe that such a large and heavy plane can do a snap roll in 1.7 sec. its rolls the same as a 153. To compare NACA stats, the P40 and Spit V do a snap roll at 300mph in 3.1 sec and FW190A4 will do on in 2.7sec. very good. but 1.7 is unbelievable. does anyone have a good source of data and specs for japanese planes...thanks

Blackdog5555
04-24-2004, 12:45 PM
I did several snap roll test on the KI84c with a stopwatch at 300 mph at various altitudes. I found that it performs a snap roll at all altitudes in 1.7 second. Can that be right? I've tried to do web searches for data on the KI84c but to no avail. I'm sure there is data out there so can anyone help me. I just cant believe that such a large and heavy plane can do a snap roll in 1.7 sec. its rolls the same as a 153. To compare NACA stats, the P40 and Spit V do a snap roll at 300mph in 3.1 sec and FW190A4 will do on in 2.7sec. very good. but 1.7 is unbelievable. does anyone have a good source of data and specs for japanese planes...thanks

WUAF_Badsight
04-24-2004, 02:58 PM
yea i wouldnt mind it rolling slower too

so off-puting

was it really that good at rolling ?!?!?!

Steaky_361st
04-24-2004, 03:06 PM
Too bad that snap rolling isnt the only thing thats wrong with the KI right now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Steaky

BlitzPig_DDT
04-24-2004, 03:17 PM
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Willey
04-24-2004, 03:46 PM
I bet ya the FW SNAP rolls far quicker than 2,7secs. And at 300mph the Frank doesn't roll that good anymore. Did you roll at 470km/h IAS? That's approx. 300mph.

I'd like to see roll rates fixed anyway. The Zeroes for one roll too slowly. There's a roll chart with P-39, P-47, P-51, Spit and Spit CW, Focke, Zero and maybe some others around here. The FW is at some 160-170deg/sec ot so at a certain speed, and at lower speeds the clip wing Spit is even better. The Zero is at some 60deg/sec here. First, the Clip Spit is hardly better than the normal one in FB, second, the Zero rolled far better - this chart is for 30 (THIRTY) lb stick force (there should also one with 50lb) - third, the P-39 rolls far better in FB (the N-1 and Q-1, the Q-10 will probably roll better without wing guns). The La-7 also is very quick in roll. Somehow, the FW lacks it's advantage in FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. I bet there's a huge load of errors here, because it's a perfomance which is hard to get precisely, where even may be a lack of data for some planes.

WhiskeyRiver
04-25-2004, 04:19 AM
Willey the 190's roll doesnt drop off at higher speeds like it does in the chart in AHT.

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robban75
04-25-2004, 04:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
Willey the 190's roll doesnt drop off at higher speeds like it does in the chart in AHT.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That appears to be the only chart portaying the Fw 190's roll performance, I for one would like to see more. In FB the Fw 190 rollrate does drop of at higher speeds now.
However at dogfight speeds the Fw 190 lacks any kind of roll advantage in FB.

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VW-IceFire
04-25-2004, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
I did several snap roll test on the KI84c with a stopwatch at 300 mph at various altitudes. I found that it performs a snap roll at all altitudes in 1.7 second. Can that be right? I've tried to do web searches for data on the KI84c but to no avail. I'm sure there is data out there so can anyone help me. I just cant believe that such a large and heavy plane can do a snap roll in 1.7 sec. its rolls the same as a 153. To compare NACA stats, the P40 and Spit V do a snap roll at 300mph in 3.1 sec and FW190A4 will do on in 2.7sec. very good. but 1.7 is unbelievable. does anyone have a good source of data and specs for japanese planes...thanks<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did you try different speeds? I.e. Timed it at 300 kph, 400 kph, and 500 kph? This is where the main difference should be.

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ZG77_Nagual
04-25-2004, 11:01 AM
Willy, roll in the zero was one if it's historical weaknesses - it lost roll very quickly above 250mph or so - and was nothing to write home about below that.

Willey
04-25-2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
Willey the 190's roll doesnt drop off at higher speeds like it does in the chart in AHT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know an AHT roll chart, where the 190 is in. It's for 30lb stick force. So it's probably rolling quicker at higher speeds with 50lb.

And the Zero rolls like a bomber right now. That can't be right. For sure those huge ailerons are hard to deflect at higher speeds, but at lower speeds like 200-300kph they should grant quite a good roll rate.

p1ngu666
04-25-2004, 05:49 PM
doesnt the 190 roll too fast anyways?
or it did i think

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VW-IceFire
04-25-2004, 06:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Willey:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WhiskeyRiver:
Willey the 190's roll doesnt drop off at higher speeds like it does in the chart in AHT.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know an AHT roll chart, where the 190 is in. It's for 30lb stick force. So it's probably rolling quicker at higher speeds with 50lb.

And the Zero rolls like a bomber right now. That can't be right. For sure those huge ailerons are hard to deflect at higher speeds, but at lower speeds like 200-300kph they should grant quite a good roll rate.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
If you look at a comparative roll chart, you have P-40's, P-47's, P-51's, FW190 and Spitfire all close to the top (the FW190 and Spitfire clipped trade places about halfway through the speed spectrum). Then you have the Zero and the Typhoon at the very very bottom...who's roll performance is very low at both low and high speeds. So if its off in FB, its not by very much.

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Blackdog5555
04-26-2004, 02:53 AM
The NACA is the the national advisory commission on aeonautics. The agency before NASA. It was ended in (around 53-54or ?). The agency kept real data on evrything that had to do with planes. But Data on Japanes planes is tough to get. Data on the KI84 shows the KI84 goes to takeoff to 5000 meters in 6.0 minutes. the FB KI84 does it in 4.20 minutes. Just a bad FM. 300mph is the best speed for snap rolls according to NACA for nearly all WWII planes. The inertia and weight algorithms are just off. Just watching it free flight , it flies like a kite, with no inertia. Its just wrong but, im looking for verified data. does anyone have a real chart. FB KI84 roll fast at all speeds which means what??? If it weighed only 1000 kilos I understand. it doesnt. It had a takeoff weight of over 8000lbs.

Blackdog5555
04-26-2004, 12:23 PM
unless the KI84 actually did climb to 5000 meters in 4 min. 20 sec., and do a 360 in 1.7, I dont know. It just doesnt look right. Its flight isnt natural. Thats why I want to see if anyone has real "credible" source of info. Its only a game.

VW-IceFire
04-26-2004, 01:09 PM
In the meantime...we can do some tests to illustrate how it behaves in the game.

For instance, take a Ki-84, on the Crimea QMB map, at 1000 meters, and test its roll rate at 300 kph. Take three or four readings to establish an average. Then do it at 400 kph...and 500 kph.

Are there differences between the three models as well?

We can all also time from 0 on a landing strip to 5000 meters or whatever the test is and establish an average of times. That way when we goto compair real test data from the game data we already have a scientifically tested set of data.

I'm willing to partake in the test (and really its much better if a bunch of people did it) instead of complaining till the sun explodes and not actually doing any work.

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VW-IceFire
04-27-2004, 12:04 PM
I did a test comparison between FW190 and Ki-84. If you can, please conduct your own tests and compair results...

See the test here:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=153104873

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BigKahuna_GS
04-28-2004, 04:30 AM
S!



Here are links providing information concerning the Ki84, notice how it says the roll rate drops off above 300mph--something that does not happen in FB/AEP. Basically the Ki84 roll rate tends to remain the same no matter the speed.

It also list climb rates and speed.


"A few service trials machines were handed over to the Tachikawa Army Air Arsenal. JAAF pilots commented favorably on the machine, although its maximum speed was below the requirement. The aircraft had a maximum speed was 388mph, could climb to 16,405 feet in 6 minutes 26 seconds, and had a service ceiling of 40,680. This made the Ki-84 the best-performing Japanese fighter aircraft then available for immediate production.

However, the aircraft did have certain poor control characteristics to which a veteran pilot could easily become become accustomed but which could be deadly in the hands of an inexperienced pilot.

In flight, the controls were sluggish in comparison with those of the Hayabusa, and the elevators tended to be heavy at all speeds. The ailerons were excellent up to about 300 mph, after which they became rather heavy. The rudder was mushy at low speeds for angles near neutral. "

Most often quoted speeds for the Ki84 were below 400mph.

http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-84.html

http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/ki84performanceaj_2.htm


___________________________________

By VW-IceFire

Right...roll rate comparison.

Testing criteria:
- Crimea (12:00)
- 1000 meters alt
- Clear weather
- 100% fuel load
- Timex Ironman Chronometer (started at beginning of 360 degree roll and stopped as soon as the plane had completed completed the roll)

Ki-84a
300 kph
- Roll times: 2.24 seconds, 2.52 seconds, 2.30 seconds
400 kph
- Roll times: 2.04, 2.02. 2.13
500 kph
- Roll times: 2.30, 2.32, 2.50

FW190A-5
300 kph
- Roll times: 2.13, 2.02, 2.16
400 kph
- Roll times: 2.33, 2.22, 2.20
500 kph
- Roll times: 2.68, 2.84, 2.65
_______________________________________



CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________



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DGC763
04-28-2004, 04:44 PM
Can please check your terminology? Do you actually know what a snap roll is? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Just a tip...... it is not performed with ailerons. (elevator and rudder)I don't think there is any published information on the rates of rotation for WWII aircraft snap rolls.

Roll rates on the other hand are a well covered issue. Almost every aircraft in the game is overmodelled somewhat in roll rate. This has been discussed before.

To post something on a technical characteristic using language of something completely different only serves to show a lack of knowledge that undermines your theories from the outset. e.g The Ki-84c barrel roll test. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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