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Maj_Death
04-04-2004, 11:58 AM
I say this because over the past 2 days I have tried to get a decent Pacific battle going for the 1941-42 time period. I can usually find 2 or 3 people willing to play but they don't stay long. It seems people think the P-40E is totally defenseless against the A6M2. When advertising for the server on HL I recieved numerous comments on how the P-40 doesn't stand a chance against the zeke. And what I found in running my server sort of confirms it. When I flew the A6M2, the P-40E's flew low and attempted to outturn me every single time I engaged them, regardless of who the pilot flying them was. Needless to say I shot them down within seconds. When I flew the P-40E, I flew it with the same simple hit and run tactics I use against Yak's while flying Fw-190's. It worked every time. I shot down 4 zeroes without loss using this tactic. Now for a question, why the f*ck are people trying to outturn a zero with a P-40E? I just don't get this. Yes the P-40E is more agile than the Bf-109F or Fw-190A4 but come on, the zero is a whole hell of alot more manueverable than those birds. The Zero also isn't nearly as fast as the Bf-109 and Fw-190A. This is just a rough estimite but I found the P-40E to be around 100km/h IAS faster than the A6M2 below 3000m. This speed difference makes fighting the A6M2 in a P-40E similer to fighting a Yak-3 in a Me-262. For those who think the P-40E doesn't stand a chance, give me a f*cking break. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

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Maj_Death
04-04-2004, 11:58 AM
I say this because over the past 2 days I have tried to get a decent Pacific battle going for the 1941-42 time period. I can usually find 2 or 3 people willing to play but they don't stay long. It seems people think the P-40E is totally defenseless against the A6M2. When advertising for the server on HL I recieved numerous comments on how the P-40 doesn't stand a chance against the zeke. And what I found in running my server sort of confirms it. When I flew the A6M2, the P-40E's flew low and attempted to outturn me every single time I engaged them, regardless of who the pilot flying them was. Needless to say I shot them down within seconds. When I flew the P-40E, I flew it with the same simple hit and run tactics I use against Yak's while flying Fw-190's. It worked every time. I shot down 4 zeroes without loss using this tactic. Now for a question, why the f*ck are people trying to outturn a zero with a P-40E? I just don't get this. Yes the P-40E is more agile than the Bf-109F or Fw-190A4 but come on, the zero is a whole hell of alot more manueverable than those birds. The Zero also isn't nearly as fast as the Bf-109 and Fw-190A. This is just a rough estimite but I found the P-40E to be around 100km/h IAS faster than the A6M2 below 3000m. This speed difference makes fighting the A6M2 in a P-40E similer to fighting a Yak-3 in a Me-262. For those who think the P-40E doesn't stand a chance, give me a f*cking break. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

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JG7_Rall
04-04-2004, 12:04 PM
Great post, and I totally agree. But are you sure all those pilots were American? No need to assume so if you don't know for sure.

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Maj_Death
04-04-2004, 12:06 PM
I meant ameriwhiner as in luftwhiner or redwhiner. I have often been called a luftwhiner and I'm American (who flies axis almost exclusively).

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Heavy_Weather
04-04-2004, 12:17 PM
yep the P-40 is about 10mph faster than the Zeros, according a veteran and the material he wrote about, he also mentioned that the Zero had a crappy roll rate, which also appears to be modeled correctly.

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

mike_espo
04-04-2004, 12:20 PM
Good Post. If people are foolish enough to turn with a zero, their dead...but hit and run tactics which were historical, are used, then the zero is gonna lose, depending on numbers.

Maj, I think the problem is most onliners are too impatient to use proper tactics vs the zero. It is not as exiting as the high g T&B fight. They get bored and try to turnfight which leads to their death.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

heywooood
04-04-2004, 12:29 PM
Only co-op groups practice correct tactics (or try to) from what I've read here.

fordfan25
04-04-2004, 12:37 PM
how about leting them fly the p38

VW-IceFire
04-04-2004, 12:47 PM
Let me know when the server is running...I'll join and fly the P-40E as long as I can. Its a deadly fighter with an excelent roll rate, excellent firepower, and its quite capable of dominating Zero's left right and center.

Anyone who complained about the P-40E VS Zero matchup obviously is falling for the same tricks that U.S. and other pilots ran into while fighting the Zero. Amazing...60 years and people haven't learned a thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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JG27_BLACKHART
04-04-2004, 12:49 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm American and fly luft Planes but just as well I like to mix up the planes.

P-40 was a great plane and if I have a chance to fly your server I will for sure.

Zero's would fly a tactic called the circle of death. five or so planes would fly in a circle one after the other and was named to be deadly.

If any enemy was to enguage the one trailing would have a shot on the agressor.

Any whoot I have a feeling that the 51, 38 and corsair and 47 are not going to be added any time soon as well as the avenger and other torpedo and bomber planes. Sigh just once I would like to by a game that had all the main planes in it at the begining... ya know what I mean? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

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jensenpark
04-04-2004, 12:55 PM
It's just the people used to the uber tnb Soviet planes probably...

I'll look for your server...I love the p40.

The few US/Japan battles I've seen on HL the Zero pilots all mull around together on the deck...just waiting to be picked off...or it seems for some dumb jock to try to turn with them.

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mike_espo
04-04-2004, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VW-IceFire:
Let me know when the server is running...I'll join and fly the P-40E as long as I can. Its a deadly fighter with an excelent roll rate, excellent firepower, and its quite capable of dominating Zero's left right and center.

Anyone who complained about the P-40E VS Zero matchup obviously is falling for the same tricks that U.S. and other pilots ran into while fighting the Zero. Amazing...60 years and people haven't learned a thing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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Excellent Post. If properly flown the P-40 can hold its own vs the zero.

BTW, I would love to fly on this server...would love to fly against someone who knows proper American tactics. Many times I get killed in the Zero while chasing someone and get whacked from behind.......

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2004, 01:08 PM
and imagine when after the patch the A6M2 got ist slower max dive speed and its correct amount of 20mm ammo (now 125rpg , correct would be 60rpg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CHDT
04-04-2004, 01:11 PM
I agree with you, Maj_Death.

I too like very much this kind of server with P-40 against the Zero.

Well flown, a P-40 is quite a capable aircraft againt the A6M.

But, yes, it's a pitty, this kind of server is almost impossible to find on Hypperlobby.

Cheers,

mike_espo
04-04-2004, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
and imagine when after the patch the A6M2 got ist slower max dive speed and its correct amount of 20mm ammo (now 125rpg , correct would be 60rpg http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, but did you know the zero is 40km/hr too slow in max level speed at alt? It only does 490km/hr at 4500m. It should do 530km/hr at that alt.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

JG53Frankyboy
04-04-2004, 01:32 PM
than you have to have an eye on it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

because the A6M2 will sure loose its highblower stage - because the Sakae12 was only a single gear supercharger engine

mike_espo
04-04-2004, 02:09 PM
True too. Oleg said he would correct in the upcoming patch...hope he fixes max speed too.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

crazyivan1970
04-04-2004, 02:09 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Great post... and this applies not ONLY to Pacific scenario.. it applies to every teather. Know what your plane can and cannot do... and you will be fine.

V!
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necrobaron
04-04-2004, 02:11 PM
I have a sneaking feeling there will be a lot of whining about one of my favs,the Corsair. It wasn't called the Ensign Eliminator for nothin'. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Bull_dog_
04-04-2004, 02:17 PM
I can't wait for PF! I have flown the P-40 in an A6M2 server and had no problem with the zekes. Just stay fast and with enough altitude to exchange it for speed and your ok.

I learned most of my tactics from flying the Jug online. That plane will teach a person patience and perseverance.

Any person that tries to turn with a Zero or a spitfire etc... deserves to get shot down and any subsequent whining will fall on deaf ears mostly http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

xenios
04-04-2004, 02:27 PM
This is surprising because I would think people would complain that the Zero would have no chance, not the other way around. The P-40 and P-39 are the ultimate Zero killers, since they're faster and have better roll rates, not to mention their type of armament is ideal for hitting light fighters. Zero against Brewster is a little more interesting.

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-04-2004, 02:30 PM
I own Zeros while flying the P-40 and I know alot more who have no problem destroying Zeros while flying P-40s as well.
Zero stands no chance against the P-38J either.
Those who you think will whine about american planes or planesets will be the ones most likely trying to turn in continuous circles with the Zero.

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mike_espo
04-04-2004, 02:36 PM
Online, usually have no problem with P-40s or P-39s or for that matter, the P-38J while flying the zero 21. Most pilots want to turn fight and they are easy kills, unless they use teamwork, then I get the "black screen" when Im chasing someone and get whacked from behind. Never encountered a true expert who uses proper tactics against a better turning adversary.

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

[This message was edited by mike_espo on Sun April 04 2004 at 03:15 PM.]

VF-3Thunderboy
04-04-2004, 03:09 PM
Actually the Zero has an exellent roll rate under 180 KTS, around 4.5 seconds. This is from an actual video of both inside and outside cockpit veiws of the only real zero flying, an A6M5.
From the "Roaring Glory"(google/amazon) set.
This is modeled well in CFS2 1% airplanes, the only thing missing is Engine torque, then the #'s would be right there.

SkyChimp
04-04-2004, 03:17 PM
There were a lot of Ameriwhiners in real life, too. Those guys flying P-39s and P-40s felt their planes were simply outclassed by the Zero. Once they learned how to fight the Zero, their attitudes changed.

Seems this sim may be historically correct in more ways than one.

The advantage with the sim is, if you do it wrong the first time, you're still alive.

Regards,
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MPortus
04-04-2004, 03:23 PM
Since I saw people trying to out turn me in a spit while I was in a gladiator, I'm no longer surprised.

carguy_
04-04-2004, 03:58 PM
Since most Yanks fly red planes(P39,P63) they will have to learn B&Z.We`ll see how many of`em are willing to fly for USAAF in exchange for change of flying style.

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RedDeth
04-05-2004, 03:13 AM
all experienced gamers know to fly the p40 fast and straight while fighting zeroes.

the p40 could by far and away outdive the zero to so a single p40 could slash through a formation of many zeroes and escape unscathed.

chennaults flying tigers used this tactic on all japanese planes to devastating affect.

zeroes cant touch a well flown p40. but the reverse isnt true.

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T_O_A_D
04-05-2004, 04:14 AM
The problem is ingnorance of the past. Do some research fly most to all the aircraft modeled in this sim historicly and you will do nicely with them. Unless your in a mixed bag server that is non historic plane set. The you had better watch yourself for sure no matter the aircraft your in.

I got dupped into a nasty struggle with Pf coastie the other day in a zero p-40 match. I had cleared Gozr tail of another PF don't remember which one but I turned to see if Gozr would follw me and wam thee was Coastie moving in on me on and I was slowing E like a dumb A$$ If we'd of been on comms I would of never turned but I can't type Hey Gozr let go your clear fast enough to be effective in a match.

Oh by the way Gozr never new I was in trouble and coastie eventually got me. I tried the clouds, diving and everything avaialable at the present location and situation I could think of till I ran out of fuel and was forced down. He had managed to hit me enough times to be credited with the kill. And so deserving he did a real good job staying near enough I couldn't escape.
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MornJW
04-05-2004, 05:26 AM
Well in a Zeke, surely if you are being boom and zoomed, and you see the enemy coming at you, you can just out turn him as he approaches right? I read of Spitfire pilots doing this against 109E's in battle of britain. 109E's would use their climb and dive advantage in boom and zoom to tackle the spitfires manverablity advantage.

Tully__
04-05-2004, 07:56 AM
I love the P-40 v. the Zero. Get altitude, Boom & Zoom. They don't stand a chance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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VW-IceFire
04-05-2004, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
There were a lot of Ameriwhiners in real life, too. Those guys flying P-39s and P-40s felt their planes were simply outclassed by the Zero. Once they learned how to fight the Zero, their attitudes changed.

Seems this sim may be historically correct in more ways than one.

The advantage with the sim is, if you do it wrong the first time, you're still alive.

_Regards,_
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/wildsig.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thing is we'll have many who will continue to turn fight despite warnings and continue to complain, not having read, nor caring to read any of the documentation that has been written about dealing with the Zero.

Back in I think it was 1991 when Aces of the Pacific came out, that game had a fantastic manual where they had an entire section about how U.S. pilots had troubles with the Zero and believed it and the Oscar invulernable (I've since read that RAF pilots experienced the same problems initially). Finally the concept of BNZ started coming into play and things started working out - but what do I see on most dogfight servers? I see people in FW190's trying to turn with La's, failing, and wondering why they are fighting "Russian uber planes".

We seriously need to have a "experten dogfight server" where we have some realistic matchups and conditions, where the crowd is friendly, your team is compelled to work together, and we can have some interesting matchups (minus some features like no player map icon, no speedbar, or huge giant distances that take 10 minutes to reach).

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mike_espo
04-05-2004, 08:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MornJW:
Well in a Zeke, surely if you are being boom and zoomed, and you see the enemy coming at you, you can just out turn him as he approaches right? I read of Spitfire pilots doing this against 109E's in battle of britain. 109E's would use their climb and dive advantage in boom and zoom to tackle the spitfires manverablity advantage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the A6M2, I do that all the time....

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Gunner_361st
04-05-2004, 10:02 AM
All the Zero and Oscar can do against a properly flown American fighter like the P-40 Warhawk or P-39 Cobra is evade. Can't shoot at something you can't catch.

Boom and zoom all the way, baby. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Tully__
04-05-2004, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gunner_361st:
All the Zero and Oscar can do against a _properly_ flown American fighter like the P-40 Warhawk or P-39 Cobra is evade. Can't shoot at something you can't catch.

Boom and zoom all the way, baby. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Aztek_Eagle
04-05-2004, 10:27 AM
acusating some one of whinning before he evens whines, is the lowest kind of whinning, your parents must be very disapointed

Aztek_Eagle
04-05-2004, 10:32 AM
ZEROS ARE GOOD PLANES, P40S CAN TURN WIHT THE LATE ZERO At mediums speeds, and the p39 can turn wiht it at high speeds, so the zeros, the slower the better, and if some one is zoom booming u, u just stay klevel wiht high speed, and as the enemy get closer, u just go into climbing head on wiht them, and kill them, not big deal wiht zoom and booming, ppl is just dummy to stall their planes when they are been zoom booming

TAGERT.
04-05-2004, 10:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj_Death:
I say this because over the past 2 days I have tried to get a decent Pacific battle going for the 1941-42 time period. I can usually find 2 or 3 people willing to play but they don't stay long. It seems people think the P-40E is totally defenseless against the A6M2. When advertising for the server on HL I recieved numerous comments on how the P-40 doesn't stand a chance against the zeke. And what I found in running my server sort of confirms it. When I flew the A6M2, the P-40E's flew low and attempted to outturn me every single time I engaged them, regardless of who the pilot flying them was. Needless to say I shot them down within seconds. When I flew the P-40E, I flew it with the same simple hit and run tactics I use against Yak's while flying Fw-190's. It worked every time. I shot down 4 zeroes without loss using this tactic. Now for a question, why the f*ck are people trying to outturn a zero with a P-40E? I just don't get this. Yes the P-40E is more agile than the Bf-109F or Fw-190A4 but come on, the zero is a whole hell of alot more manueverable than those birds. The Zero also isn't nearly as fast as the Bf-109 and Fw-190A. This is just a rough estimite but I found the P-40E to be around 100km/h IAS faster than the A6M2 below 3000m. This speed difference makes fighting the A6M2 in a P-40E similer to fighting a Yak-3 in a Me-262. For those who think the P-40E doesn't stand a chance, give me a f*cking break. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>YAWN

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TAGERT

Maj_Death
04-05-2004, 01:23 PM
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Giganoni
04-05-2004, 02:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
all experienced gamers know to fly the p40 fast and straight while fighting zeroes.

the p40 could by far and away outdive the zero to so a single p40 could slash through a formation of many zeroes and escape unscathed.

chennaults flying tigers used this tactic on all japanese planes to devastating affect.

zeroes cant touch a well flown p40. but the reverse isnt true.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too bad he was too stupid to listen to warnings about defending his airfields as they got bombed and overrun by Japanese land forces. Stilwell warned him the Japanese could take over his airfields anytime they wanted and did so. In the end he accomplished little.

As for the Zero, so if someone does bnz against a zero, and the Zero keeps evading..it just becomes a question of who makes the first mistake.

Maj_Death
04-05-2004, 09:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:

As for the Zero, so if someone does bnz against a zero, and the Zero keeps evading..it just becomes a question of who makes the first mistake.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Basically yes. When I fly the zero (BTW I finally got a decent server going) I simply fly higher than the P-40's. That fixes the lack of speed http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif. Of course when I fly a P-40 I do the same.

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FZG_Immel
04-05-2004, 09:57 PM
Mike espo.

YOu can basically evade a boom zoomer, when you see him..

now, its a matter of time. Soon or later he will hit you.. and even if he cant, he will never be endangered while you have been that close to death of all the fight-.

I guess you didnt go in server with good boom zoomers. I can assure you that top OKL squads of VEF are really used to those tactic, see they have to due to both side planes characteristics.

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Tully__
04-06-2004, 04:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TAGERT.:
YAWN

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__TAGERT__
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, 7 day ban for disruptive spam long enough....

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Blackdog5555
04-23-2004, 03:20 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JG27_BLACKHART:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Zero's would fly a tactic called the circle of death. five or so planes would fly in a circle one after the other and was named to be deadly.
Yes its true. In the Marianas the Japanese used that tactic. It was later called the Marianas Turkey Shoot. Thank you stupid "Circle of Death". BTW The AVG flying the F40B trained the USAAC and Navy pilots. The training primarily informed pilots to never turn with a Zeke. Never. dumb pilots who forgot that training suffered loses. The AVG was very very successful using the P40 against Zekes/vals in boom and zoom tactics. In FB online you are not flying against a squadron of aces of the pacific. Your flying against alot of impetuious solo "sky quakers." Not that "sky quaking" is bad. When I go online i dont want to spent 5 minutes getting altitude and stalk for another 5 minutes to get some B&Z hits on a Zeke. I want some quick, fun action.

tHeBaLrOgRoCkS
04-23-2004, 05:12 AM
I prefer the altitude solution in just about any aircraft I fly. As to it not being fun well hell I enjoy the whole experiance and while I am climbing I get to watch all you low level barnstomers getting the crap blown outta yah by enemy low level barnstormers. Me ? I am happy with the leftovers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif

BigBoy01
04-23-2004, 05:16 AM
They say it's not the plane, it's the pilot. The one who can fly his plane on the edge of the envelop generally prevails. And if your hopelessly outclassed in speed, turning ability, and fire power your gonna' need a good wingy and the right tactics. Failing that, in RL, I would expect a good pilot to get the he!! out of there and live to fight again another day on his own terms and conditions. I guess it's a question of are you simulating or game playing?

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Zyzbot
04-23-2004, 08:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by JG27_BLACKHART:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Zero's would fly a tactic called the circle of death. five or so planes would fly in a circle one after the other and was named to be deadly.
Yes its true. In the Marianas the Japanese used that tactic. It was later called the Marianas Turkey Shoot. Thank you stupid "Circle of Death". BTW The AVG flying the F40B trained the USAAC and Navy pilots. The training primarily informed pilots to never turn with a Zeke. Never. dumb pilots who forgot that training suffered loses. The AVG was very very successful using the P40 against Zekes/vals in boom and zoom tactics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


According to Erik Schilling and others...the AVG nevr fought against Zekes or Zeros which were naval aircraft.

From his site:

"The AVG encountered 4 types of Japanese aircraft in their fight over Burma and southeast China. Two were fighters, the Hayabusa we called the I-97 and the Mitsubishi*, an obsolete fixed geared fighter, the I-96. The only Japanese bomber was the I-97, which I think was called the Sally, and an occasional Japanese photo-recon plane.

The P-40s was 50 mph faster than the Hayabusa we called the I-97.

The P-40's top speed was 70 mph faster than the I-96, an early fixed geared Mitsubishi.

The P-40 was 130 mph faster than the Japanese bomber, and 130 mph faster in a dive than any fighter the Japanese had.

The P-40's pilot protection was in the form of self-sealing fuel tanks. Almost two - inch thick bullet proof armor plate windshields, and 9 mm and 7 mm armor plate protecting the pilot from behind. Also the P-40's armor plate could stop the bullets from any military aircraft the Japanese had in the China - Burma theater."

GK.
04-23-2004, 10:22 AM
Contrary to popular belief and the current modeling in il2:fb, the p40 could NOT outrun the zero, according to Ben Affleck, a credible source.

http://data.photodump.com/gk/shidensig.jpg
*Proud Chute Shooter*
"P40's can't out run the zero, so we'll have to outfly them." -Ben Affleck

Korolov
04-23-2004, 11:06 AM
Ben Affleck encountered special sprint variants of the Zeke, not the actual combat capable variants that others faced.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

Mr_Nakajima
04-23-2004, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GK.:
Contrary to popular belief and the current modeling in il2:fb, the p40 could NOT outrun the zero, according to Ben Affleck, a credible source.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

sugaki
04-23-2004, 11:30 AM
Ben Affleck was right, cus' he was facing an A6M5 Zero with a Prat and Whitney engine. Not to mention an incorrectly painted Zero http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P40 a Zero killer? Not really, with those two planes it comes down to pilot skill. However, a P40 with an altittude advantage can pummel a Zero unscathed.

When a P40's doing a BnZ on me, I climb, forcing him to climb to bleed off his speed (Zero climbs better). Turn ahead of time, get in a quick burst before he gradually outruns me.

Go into a high speed dive with the P40 and the Zeke handles like a dog, another exploitable aspect of the zero.

-Aki

lbhskier37
04-23-2004, 11:31 AM
I was just thinking about that scene the other night on Warclouds TOH. We all kept trying to get our crates off the ground while a swarm of zekes were zipping in and out pounding us on takeoff. Eventually some of us did get through, and those zekes paid for their vulchinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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ZG77_Nagual
04-23-2004, 11:59 AM
Big oft-quoted p40 thread (http://www.yarchive.net/mil/p40.html)

BSS_Vidar
04-23-2004, 12:23 PM
I enjoy flying the P-40 against Zekes. I find it a good contest and have no problems bumping a Zeke. Next time I see your server set up, I'll certainly join in.

~S~

BSS_Vidar
Red-Blooded American

Bearcat99
04-23-2004, 03:07 PM
P-40s vs Zeros is a great mix. I was reading an account of a P-40 squad.... may have been Chennault's guys... but they used the hit and run... I distintly remember him saying.. try to turn with aZeke and you are done. I love it. You know what else is a hoot? La5ns Vs Zeros..... THAT is great too..even ifit may not be "historically" accurate. The planes are very evenly matched..... It's a blast.

Man.. this sim is frickin great aint it... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Blackdog5555
04-24-2004, 03:10 PM
Hey Zyzbot, according to Richard Rossi of the AVG, the Flying Tiger met the Zeros all the time. The fact that Zeros are Naval doesnt mean that they werent fighting around Burma with the AVGs. Google AVG and read Richard Rossi account and tell me im wrong. The Tigers flew the P40b, the E or M model. the old P40b which is not (I repeat not) in FB. And yes in 1939-1940-1 most planes in the Burma theatre were obsolete but so was the P40b.

Blackdog5555
04-24-2004, 03:12 PM
I tried to say/type "not" the "E" or "M" model. They (the AVG)
only flew the P40b model. sorry about that

Zyzbot
04-24-2004, 04:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
Hey Zyzbot, according to Richard Rossi of the AVG, the Flying Tiger met the Zeros all the time. The fact that Zeros are Naval doesnt mean that they werent fighting around Burma with the AVGs. Google AVG and read Richard Rossi account and tell me im wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Check this link for a differing opinion:


http://www.danford.net/neumann.htm

Blackdog5555
04-25-2004, 04:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
Hey Zyzbot, according to Richard Rossi of the AVG, the Flying Tiger met the Zeros all the time. The fact that Zeros are Naval doesnt mean that they werent fighting around Burma with the AVGs. Google AVG and read Richard Rossi account and tell me im wrong. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Check this link for a differing opinion:


http://www.danford.net/neumann.htm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

interesting reading. zyzbot. It raises some legimate issues. But, that site presents a view of an individual about the possibility of zero activity in parts of China. To quote "the zero wasnt very active here in the early part of the war" doesnt state that the wasnt active, just "not very." additionally the 3rd AVG did most of their fighting in burma, thialand and indochina.
Here is a biblio from Fritz Wolf of the the 1st AVGs

"Wolf sailed in the first contingent of AVG pilots from San Francisco on July 6, 1941 aboard the Jaegersfontein. Fritz's passport read "agriculture student." The first month after Fritz's arrival was spent learning Chennault's tactics to fight Japanese pilots. On December 20, 1941, Fritz took part in the first Flying Tiger action near Kunming China, during which time he shot down two Mitsubishi bombers. On April 8, 1942, near Loiwing, China, Fritz took part in another action in which he shot down two zero fighters. On April 17, 1942 near Magwe, Burma, Fritz was caught on the ground when the Japanese bombed the airfield. R.T. Smith recorded in his diary that even Fritz Wolf was scared. During this raid, Fritz witnessed first-hand the tragic death of AVG Crew Chief John Fauth. Fritz was honorably discharged from the Flying Tigers when the AVG was officially disbanded on July 4, 1942. He had logged 220 hours of combat flying in the skies over Burma and China fighting the Japanese."

I would take the word of a 100 AVG pilots over your inconclusive research article. Im sure mistakes were made but there were about 400 to 500 Japanes planes in the Burmese / indo china theatre. I bet a few were early zeros.
I'm also sure they (the AVGs) mistook some of the planes they saw for zeros too. Chennault nonetheless still trained pilots to never turn with a Zeke an never leave your wingman. Was an interesting article though. The AVG story in reality is more ineresting than its folklore.

F19_Olli72
04-25-2004, 06:00 AM
I dont know.....this is from the official flying tigers site:

http://www.flyingtigersavg.com/tiger2.htm

"I didn't have much to fear in a head-on meeting because the Zeros don't have our firepower and my engine gave me plenty of protection. I never saw a Curtiss Tomahawk go down in flames."

One might believe with "Zeros" hes actually talking about Nates or Oscars, cos the "Zeros dont have our firepower" seems kinda odd statement? Two 20 mm cannons and two 7,7 mm's isnt equal or greater than six .50's? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

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Zyzbot
04-25-2004, 08:01 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
[

I would take the word of a 100 AVG pilots over your inconclusive research article. QUOTE]


Opinions certainly differ..Erik Schilling...an AVG pilot, says they never fought against Zeros and listed the planes they did fight against (see my post above).

Obviously Others say they did fight Zeros. Would be nice to get it from the Japanese side...they would know if what they flew and where.

Blackdog5555
04-26-2004, 03:09 AM
True , but there was the 1stAVG, 2ndavg and the 3rdAVG squad, they fought all over indochina and with the ABDAs (the Dutch Brewsters in indochina) they where over water. I can believe that in the inland China theatre that there very few Zekes. And I dont see how one guy can speak for the whole AVGs. And yes, It would be nice to get to get whole story now. I saw that about 10-12 AVG died in the last several months. It wont belong till they are all gone.

Mr_Nakajima
04-26-2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
[Obviously Others say they did fight Zeros. Would be nice to get it from the Japanese side...they would know if what they flew and where.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They certainly do.

'Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War 2' by Hata and Izawa, translated by Gorham, ISBN 1-85310-138-9, and 'Japanese Army Air Forece Fighter Units and their Aces 1931-1945' by Hata, Izawa and Shores, ISBN 1-902304-89-6 give full histories of the actions of JAAF and JNAF fighter units in the Second World War.

If you want a non-American history of the AVG,it is covered in 'Bloody Shambles' Volume 2, by Shores, Cull and Izawa, ISBN 0-948817-67-4. This gives equal prominence to the often overlooked RAF contribution to the war in Burma.

None of these sources say the AVG fought against A6Ms.

That AVG pilots thought they did is hardly surprising, given the limited amount of information known about Japanese aircraft and the confused nature of real air combat. The principle JAAF fighter the AVG fought was the Ki-27 'Nate', but the recently introduced Ki-43 'Oscar' was very poorly known in the west and looks very similar to the A6M.

Overclaiming by AVG, RAF and JAAF was rife, and this was realised at the time at least by the allies. RAF Air Vice-Marshal Stevenson gained agreement that the RAF's standards of assessment for claims should be used, so at least Allied claims after late February 1942 were made on a common basis.

Blackdog5555
04-26-2004, 01:11 PM
Famous quotehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gifforgot who) "The first thing that is lost in war is the truth. As an attorney who has interviewed 1000s of witnesses, including "expert" I can tell the last place you will find the truth is from an "eye witness". You really need to do your own research. If you go to Japanese history you will find that the Japanese downed 450 AVG pilots. Japanese history would be last place to find "truth." My father served in the US Navy as an Aviation Fire Control Ordinanceman in "42-45. His close friends and close friends of the family are are guys who fought in Iwo Jima, Coral Sea, Okinawa, My step father fought in the battle of the Coral Sea. He was there for Mariana turkey shoot. etc. I could go on. I have talked to these gentleman about the war. I have read countless account/ books/ articles on the subject.
The Truth What I have read and heard from several sources is that the early US fighter jocks refered to all Japanese fighters as "Zeros," or "Zekes." My personal research from several sources shows that most Japanese planes in the China/Burma Theatre in 40-41 were in fact KI27, Oscars KI43, A5M Caludes, plus various medium and large bombers. A6M2s were there but there are issues as to when they were pulled out and put back in. Where and when.
So, what is the truth? I think its probable that the AVG refered to all enemy fighters as Zekes. That was the custom of reference at the time. The AVG did encounter Zekes (in their definition). Most likely the "Zekes" were in fact Oscars Claudes and KI27s, Nates (to modern hitorians). So, did they encounter A6M's? I would think it highly improbable that they didnt encounter A6M. A6M were all over the place. The Navy loaned fighters to the Army and vice versa. record seem to be lacking. I will concede that my early interpretation of eyewitness reports that the AVG met A6Ms is probbaly incorrect.
But I will not concede that the AVG didnt encounter A6Ms.
So what: The Oscars, Nates and Claudes were just as dangerous as the A6m2 in the right hands/ or even the wrong hand. Anway, do yourown research and check with several, I mean several sources. The "Truth" is elusive.

geetarman
04-26-2004, 01:30 PM
I love both planes - I also fly on these "P-40 vs. Zero (A6M2)" servers. The P-40 can handle itself as long as the Zero pilot doesn't scan the sky. Most don't. As someone said earlier, they all seem to mill around at low alt., chasing one or two P-40's that dived on them. All I do is dive on them at high speed, get on their six and start blasting.

As to the zero, I think it's one of the best planes in the game. It out turns most planes. Sooo many jocks just start turning with you in Spits, La's etc. It's a piece of cake sometimes.

I really love to get a bit of altitude with it. Yesterday a guy came charging up at me in his LA-7, intent on getting a quick kill. As he closed from my 10:00 low, I manuevered out of his way causing him to pass behind me. He pulled into a sharp left turn to get back on my tail. I simply executed a loop while he was mid-way through his turn and landed squarely on his six. It was such a tight loop!
Then I opened up with the cannons and it was lights out.

Great plane!