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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:18 AM
I just watched the History Channel's Hitler's Arsenal: The Luftwaffe. EXCELLENT show IMO. I was amazed at some of the guncam footage. The cannonfire smoke looked just like it does in FB... The one thing that I missed was the 190... I dont know if they showed it..I didnt see it. I did have to leave the room for about 5 minutes. If they didnt show it then that was a MAJOR blunder on thier part. I thought the guncam footage was great and the interviews with the pilots was very nice.. One in particular was very moving to me. He was a 109 pilot in 44 over Berlin. He said that he was flying a 109 in battle weeks after he turned 16. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif 16!!! Man o man. He said that they knew it was hopeless. Often you would have 20 or so 109s going up against a couple hundred planes. This is why we cant lump the combatants into one mold and look at them all as evil people. This guy was a kid!! I am sure he wasnt the only one. Anyway I enjoyed the program. i found the BoB footage interesting too. The way the tracers arched to the target is just like in FB. It helped me to see how good this sim is..although I already think it is the top dog of simdom. The had the FW200,the Me323 I think it was, nice IL2 footage, a few burned up I16s, and a shot of fresh Laggs coming off the assembly line. One thing that struck me was the fact that most of the planes used in the beginning of the war were older designs from the 30s (Ju-87,88s,109s). I enjoyed it though. It really showed how Germany's poor leadership saved the world from Naziism.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:18 AM
I just watched the History Channel's Hitler's Arsenal: The Luftwaffe. EXCELLENT show IMO. I was amazed at some of the guncam footage. The cannonfire smoke looked just like it does in FB... The one thing that I missed was the 190... I dont know if they showed it..I didnt see it. I did have to leave the room for about 5 minutes. If they didnt show it then that was a MAJOR blunder on thier part. I thought the guncam footage was great and the interviews with the pilots was very nice.. One in particular was very moving to me. He was a 109 pilot in 44 over Berlin. He said that he was flying a 109 in battle weeks after he turned 16. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif 16!!! Man o man. He said that they knew it was hopeless. Often you would have 20 or so 109s going up against a couple hundred planes. This is why we cant lump the combatants into one mold and look at them all as evil people. This guy was a kid!! I am sure he wasnt the only one. Anyway I enjoyed the program. i found the BoB footage interesting too. The way the tracers arched to the target is just like in FB. It helped me to see how good this sim is..although I already think it is the top dog of simdom. The had the FW200,the Me323 I think it was, nice IL2 footage, a few burned up I16s, and a shot of fresh Laggs coming off the assembly line. One thing that struck me was the fact that most of the planes used in the beginning of the war were older designs from the 30s (Ju-87,88s,109s). I enjoyed it though. It really showed how Germany's poor leadership saved the world from Naziism.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:22 AM
It was a good show, the interviews were good as well.

Probably left out the Fw190 because they knew that even they couldn't bad mouth it /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:26 AM
That was the one drawback... that made the whole thing a little weak in my mind. You cant say Luftwaffe and not mention the 190 IMO. It was better than the 109 yet if you watched that show you would think the only German fighter was the 109. I was kind of hoping they might have played it even briefly for the few minutes I was gone. It was still good but the lack of the 190 is a definite minus....

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:28 AM
Why do i always miss these things..../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:06 AM
I missed it...I playing FB /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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Message Edited on 10/22/03 09:07PM by CowboyTodd41

Message Edited on 10/22/0309:07PM by CowboyTodd41

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:10 AM
Just finished watching it myself. It was a pretty good show. It's not ofen you get to see the German pilots view. I was amazed at the gun camera footage of a Hurrican getting flamed. It looked like the German pilot was only about 10ft. behind the Hurrican. The B-17 getting nailed. Most of the gunners must have been dead, because it didn't seem like the German pilot was getting any return fire, and he was practically sitting on top of the bomber. Scary when you think about it.

The one thing that irks me about some historical documentaries such as this, is that some of the film footage they use is out of place. Being somewhat of a perfectionist as well as a history nut, I tend to notice any inaccuracies, which kind of ruins it for me. Like when they talk about certain battles, and you see footage of equipment that hadn't even made it into the field yet. I didn't notice it too much in the Luftwaffe documentary, but there were a bunch in the previous show about the Panzers. My wife hates to watch any war movie with me because I tend to rip it apart for inaccuracies. Anyway, it was still enjoyable to watch.

Oh, and by the way, the one Me 109 pilot was said to have had 3 1/2 victories. Germans never claimed half victories.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:24 AM
>>>Most of the gunners must have been dead, because it didn't seem like the German pilot was getting any return fire<<<

Or out of ammo. They only had about 2 minutes of trigger down time for an 8-10 hour flight.

Zeke

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:57 AM
I watched it, and no 190. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I was going to post about the 30mm hits on that B-17. HOLY CRAP! It was tearing massive holes in the bomber like it was made of dry, brittle paper. Amazing stuff. It had to be a 30mm as the tracers were very big, the trajectory was low, and the damage was massive (and they were talking about the 262 at the time). One round hit the back edge of the right wing and the explosion from the round was awesome, tearing away a large portion. Then a round hit the left wing and simply tore a huge hole in the wing. Great stuff. The 30mm was an amazing weapon, though I still question it's usability. as a fighter vs. fighter weapon.

Oh, I wanted to also mention how the 20mm seemed fairly ineffective against the B-17's despite numerous hits. The Fortress was indeed tough, but the Mk.108 was devastating.

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Message Edited on 10/23/0304:59AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:18 AM
Both programs were very good. The interviews with the veterans gives a much deeper understanding. Talk about facing hell. I thought the first Panther battle against the Russian salient was almost unreal. In 50 days just for the Germans 500,000 men and 7 Panther divisions lost. That's 10,000 Germans a day!

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:42 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Then a round hit the left wing and simply tore a huge hole in the wing. Great stuff.



Um, not if you were one of the young men inside the B17.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 09:24 AM
I watched and one thing that struck me was the admission that the Luft were vulchers. Hard to imagine that they didn't get booted for taking out enemy aircraft and bases while still on the ground. What happened to "honor"? It wasn't mentioned if any planes were shoot at while landing though.

Caliber25th
10-23-2003, 09:38 AM
I tuned in about 2 minutes right before it ended. Sheesh, I got all excited and ready to watch it and it ended. Great timing I have.

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Message Edited on 10/22/0310:40PM by Caliber25th

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:05 PM
The Luftwaffe shot at anything that was not a man hanging from parachute straps. So did the Allies, and even shot quite a few Germans even if they were in the straps. Guess all the pilots needed to be on a forum to be "Educated" agaist Vulching, which we all know is most dishonorable, and beneath contempt.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 12:56 PM
Be sure. Allied squads were just as bad. Vulching was the standard way to get 262s. What NoObs! LOL

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 01:45 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- I just watched the History Channel's Hitler's
- Arsenal: The Luftwaffe. EXCELLENT show IMO. I was
[snip]

That episode was originally part of the Brute Force: The History of Weapons at War series that was aired a few years ago. A&E/History Channel re-edited it (cutting out a minute or two of the introductory/epilogue scenes featuring the host/narrator), and then they repackaged it--hence, they were able to show more commercials during prime time!

Still, a good/interesting program with lots of vintage footage, and I am happy that History Channel is bringing it back in one form or another.

[EDIT: Sometime after the first season, the "Brute Force" was dropped from the title. By the time Robert Conrad (Black Sheep Squadron) was hosting it on History Channel, the series was just known as The History of Weapons at War.]

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Message Edited on 10/23/0306:03PM by rbstr44

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 01:54 PM
Yes it was a great show. Excellent footage. Did you catch the tank show prior to that one? A Panzer commander made the comment that, it was the fact that they were outnumbered in tanks, but he also mentioned that their wonder tanks broke down after 100km but the Sherman would keep on going. Shermans were just too skin thinned though.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 02:47 PM
I like watching them shows but... they always have negatives to say about every Germany weapon, after 42 they where high tailing it getting shot up and down etc... they talked about kursked in the panzer show and t34 show and how germany lost so much, which they did and it wipped out alot of the panzer divisions, but they failed to tell you that the russians lost nearly twice as many as the germanys, the Tigers and Panthers D(when running) easily outclassed the T34, but they failed to say that..

they didnt mention the 190 because with a decently trained pilot in any 190 is a tough cookie, even the venerable 51 and 47 pilots had troubles with them, you really expect a show airing on american TV to diss the us military that much? naw... i sure they only picked the bomber shot of not shooting because it wasnt shooting, making it look helpless etc...

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:16 PM
I am pretty sure i remember a comment about the " pilot with decent training" was a formidable oppent in a 190" i enjoyed watching that show , makes me wish they would bring back "wings of the luftwaffe" I wish they would do indepth interviews with these guys...maybe that would dispell some of the hollywood hype, I can only IMAGINE the sheer terror of being 16 and going to war, The one thing that struck me was the last 30 seconds of the show when they asked the german pilot " is there anyhting else u would like to add"
With his eyes welling up he said " I have seen terriable things..I wish to see no more wars".

S!

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 03:33 PM
JG26_Red wrote:
.. they always have
- negatives to say about every Germany weapon, after
- 42 they where high tailing it getting shot up and
- down etc... they talked about kursked in the panzer
- show and t34 show and how germany lost so much,
- which they did and it wipped out alot of the panzer
- divisions, but they failed to tell you that the
- russians lost nearly twice as many as the germanys,
- the Tigers and Panthers D(when running) easily
- outclassed the T34, but they failed to say that..
-
- they didnt mention the 190 because with a decently
- trained pilot in any 190 is a tough cookie, even the
- venerable 51 and 47 pilots had troubles with them,
- you really expect a show airing on american TV to
- diss the us military that much? naw... i sure they
- only picked the bomber shot of not shooting because
- it wasnt shooting, making it look helpless etc...


OHHHH there's that damned conspiracy again......

Get a F&*%ing life!! The German did lose, believe it or not
To win a war you must be the total package industrial and military like the ALLIES. So dont give me the "we were outnumbered" bulls&*t. Maybe you were outnumbered because everyone was dead?

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

Message Edited on 10/23/0302:34PM by rhett69

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:05 PM
Yawn..... have a nice day... p.s. i do have a life.. doh

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:12 PM
Rhett69- Let me send you some prozac. Man, you need help.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:19 PM
i dont understand why people cant have a nice discussion, always have to type something rude about the person... geeez.. i was just stating my opinnion, if you dont like it iam sorry, everyone has their own opinnion of why germany lost the war, mine just tends to be there where just outnumbered, in weapons and people.. not because they where lousy weapons or soldiers like many TV shows and movies let the uneducated public think... just my opinnion, yours may be different, but no reason to take jabs at me is it?

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:27 PM
Red nevermind, that doesn't worth a thought. You haven't to apology because of your own thinking./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:38 PM
JG26_Red wrote:
-
i was just stating my
- opinnion, if you dont like it iam sorry, everyone
- has their own opinnion of why germany lost the war,
- mine just tends to be there where just outnumbered,
- in weapons and people.. not because they where lousy
- weapons or soldiers like many TV shows and movies
- let the uneducated public think... just my opinnion,
- yours may be different, but no reason to take jabs
- at me is it?

Well I was stating my opinion also.I think Germany is a great nation but it lost the war no matter how many excuses the fanboys make. The Allies defeated Germany and you should not belittle the acomplishments of so many by making excuses for Germany. I have read the same BS for the last 2 years on this forumn and its starting to grate my nerves. Maybe I do need some Prozak after all.



"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 04:57 PM
Its far from BS, many historians say the same thing, Germany was simply overrun....

Message Edited on 10/23/0304:09PM by JG26_Red

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:06 PM
JG26_Red wrote:
.. they always have
- negatives to say about every Germany weapon, after
- 42 they where high tailing it getting shot up and
- down etc... they talked about kursked in the panzer
- show and t34 show and how germany lost so much,
- which they did and it wipped out alot of the panzer
- divisions, but they failed to tell you that the
- russians lost nearly twice as many as the germanys,
- the Tigers and Panthers D(when running) easily
- outclassed the T34, but they failed to say that..
-
- they didnt mention the 190 because with a decently
- trained pilot in any 190 is a tough cookie, even the
- venerable 51 and 47 pilots had troubles with them,
- you really expect a show airing on american TV to
- diss the us military that much? naw... i sure they
- only picked the bomber shot of not shooting because
- it wasnt shooting, making it look helpless etc...

Hmmmm......

Sounds like a vast right-wing conspiracy.
:/

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:12 PM
Hey,

bearcat doesn ´t deserve it again, hi-jacking his thread.



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Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 05:36 PM
any chance it will show again?

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:34 PM
Sincere appologies to everyone I offended but I stand by my statements...... I will no longer argue EVER AGAIN.

"We make war that we may live in peace."

Aristotle

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 06:53 PM
One thing I did notice on that program is the showed the cockpit of the Me-323..

adlabs6
10-23-2003, 06:55 PM
dragonhart38 wrote:
- any chance it will show again?
-
-

I'm going to check...

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adlabs6
10-23-2003, 06:58 PM
No, I don't see a repeat on my listings.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 07:46 PM
SuspectSquirrel wrote:
- Yes it was a great show. Excellent footage. Did
- you catch the tank show prior to that one? A Panzer
- commander made the comment that, it was the fact
- that they were outnumbered in tanks, but he also
- mentioned that their wonder tanks broke down after
- 100km but the Sherman would keep on going. Shermans
- were just too skin thinned though.

Yeah that was interesting.....100km... then when you think about the American tank crews that had to face those Panzers...I mean...it wasnt like they didnt know about the Panzers when they sent the Shermans out....expendibility../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

JG26_Red wrote:

they didnt mention the 190 because with a decently trained pilot in any 190 is a tough cookie, even the venerable 51 and 47 pilots had troubles with them, you really expect a show airing on american TV to diss the us military that much? naw... i sure they only picked the bomber shot of not shooting because it wasnt shooting, making it look helpless etc...

Although I disagree with your assessment as to why the 190 was left out to me it was a MAJOR oversight. You cant say Luftwaffe and not mention the 190. It was hands down the most potent overral fighter wiekded by the Germans in WW2.

The guncam footage wss great. You notice the curling trails from the cannon? Just like in this sim...man Oleg did a nioce job on this thing, all in all.



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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:06 PM
Ky,

The apparent ineffectiveness of 20mm versus 30mm lies in the fact that a 30mm round was about three time heavier and quite possibly/probably had a better fuse design (slight delay versus instantaneous - big difference in effect).


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:37 PM
german panzers broke down after 100 km ? thats new for me.
sherman rules /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 08:47 PM
JG26_Red wrote:
-
- they didnt mention the 190 because with a decently
- trained pilot in any 190 is a tough cookie,

Like a decent pilot in a 109 wasn't also tough??? (Hartmann, Barkhorn, all the really high scoring aces flew 109s)

I sympathize slightly with what you're saying, but there isn't any History channel conspiracy. All television is simplistic. If you've ever seen any programme, news item, even a highly regarded documentary, about a subject on which you know the 'inside story,' then you'll know TV doesn't give the whole picture. Then you start to question the other subjects you see on television, because you know there are flaws. I'm not saying they lie or distort the truth deliberately, but the time constraints, even in a 1 hour programme, make it inevitable that things get glossed over or inadequately dealt with.

Watch and enjoy these shows for what they are; they are not the final word on any subject. You can watch with a critical eye and you don't have to get upset because you disagree with some opinions or 'conclusions.'

Kernow
249 IAP

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 09:17 PM
there is a TV channel, called N24 here in germany . they send some US made docus , and in 1 of the docus about WW1 planes , a so called historian told about manfred von richthofen. he said, the death of lothar von richthofen hurt him so hard. my wife asked me : why you smile now?
i said, that was a funny comment , cos lothar von richthofen died after the war ( 1922 ) .
so much for truth from an TV channel

but it was still good entertainment.

http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 09:47 PM
i just remember another docu about Tanks.
there was a pretty nice scene , a tank with an stars and stripes flag drove over the screen .
yes ,such docus are made for american people , but i like it too./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 09:50 PM
Tigers and panther broke down a bit, due to be so heavy and having engines and trannys too weak for th weight, the Panzer Mark IV easily outclassed the Sherman on its own alone...

history channel had a show about weapons etc... Tiger Vs. Sherman, which was the better tank... guess who said was the betteR?

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:40 PM
JG26_Red wrote:
- Tigers and panther broke down a bit, due to be so
- heavy and having engines and trannys too weak for th
- weight, the Panzer Mark IV easily outclassed the
- Sherman on its own alone...
-
- history channel had a show about weapons etc...
- Tiger Vs. Sherman, which was the better tank...
- guess who said was the betteR?



I watched it. And they said that one on one the sherman was alot inferior.

But as a whole weapon system, which inludes support of troops, logistics, maintainablity, quanitiy, and ablity to to takes losses in numbers it was better tank. Lose a tiger and there were not many to replace it. Lose a sherman an 10 more came up from behind some of them fixed in the field of battle damge and sent out again.

It was mentioned that for every tiger built 4 Panzer IV's could have been built. The support for a broken tiger tank was barely there as stated by a tiger vet himself. If Germany had built PanzerIV's in quanitity like shermans and passed on Tigers then the allies might have been really been in trouble.

I believe it was Churchill said "quantity has a quaility all it own"


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:02 AM
Astro, when I said "good stuff" I was referring to the guncam footage and how clear it was.

Blutarski, yeah the 108 had a projectile weight of around 11oz., ehile the 151's projectile weight was around 3.5 oz. I know how powerful the 30mm is, it was just cool to see footage of something that I am 90% sure was a 30mm cannon and just how devastating it was. It was really an eye-opener seeing that B-17 disintegrate like that. As an anti-bomber weapon it really was incredible. As an anti-fighter weapon, well that may be another story due to its low muzzle velocity and slower ROF.


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:59 AM
It said on a prog that the Allies allowed 5 Shermans for every Tiger, and they could afford the odds.

The Allies didnt do this out of laziness tho, it is very hard to get a massive tank across the channel and to the battle area and thats why they went for a medium tank in the shape of the SHerman, because it was easy to transport.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:00 AM
JG26_Red wrote:
- the Panzer Mark IV easily outclassed the
- Sherman on its own alone...
-
- history channel had a show about weapons etc...
- Tiger Vs. Sherman, which was the better tank...
- guess who said was the betteR?
-
-

Not true at all. With only 50mm armor front and 30mm sides, it was not a hard kill even for a 75mm Shermie and it was dead meat facing a 76mm or Firefly with its 17lber. It did have a lower profile, but without having sloping armor anywhere on the superstructure, punctures were not hard to come by.

Re: Sherman vs Tiger, roughly 55,000 shermies were built vs 1,500 tigers. Sherman was ideally suited to mass production and it was as reliable as.....well, a Sherman Tank.

Tigers had numerous design flaws, including:

Roadwheel design that allowed mud and rock to build up to a point of immobilization

Slow, slow, slow turret traverse

Delicate driveline, final drives. Goose the throttle too hard or bind it up in a ditch and it's goodnight.

I won't even discuss the old wooden European bridges.

Cumbersom track system: Too wide for European rail system. To travel by rail, the wide battle tracks had to be removed and the narrow sets put on (including removing all the outer roadwheels and fenders). Lengthy proceedure just to get it on the rail car. The Germans shipped by rail whenever possible to avoid taxing the Tiger's poor "automotive" performance.

With the Shermie, the crew just jumped in and said, "Drive 100 miles?" "No problem."

I'll take the Sherm.


Now back to Wingie-Thingies.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:36 AM
prozac70 wrote:
- The Luftwaffe shot at anything that was not a man
- hanging from parachute straps. So did the Allies,
- and even shot quite a few Germans even if they were
- in the straps. Guess all the pilots needed to be on
- a forum to be "Educated" agaist Vulching, which we
- all know is most dishonorable, and beneath contempt.
-



I assume you are joking of course. The object is to remove as many hostile weapons as quickly and easily as possible. Doesn't get any easier than shooting them on the ground..

The whole 'vulching' thing is just a game condition... hardly sporting in a game, but a requirement in war...



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:39 AM
Sniper762x51 wrote:
- I believe it was Churchill said "quantity has a
- quaility all it own"

I might be wrong, but I believe that quotation was attributed to Stalin.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:42 AM
kyrule2 wrote:
- Astro, when I said "good stuff" I was referring to
- the guncam footage and how clear it was.
-
- Blutarski, yeah the 108 had a projectile weight of
- around 11oz., ehile the 151's projectile weight was
- around 3.5 oz. I know how powerful the 30mm is, it
- was just cool to see footage of something that I am
- 90% sure was a 30mm cannon and just how devastating
- it was. It was really an eye-opener seeing that B-17
- disintegrate like that. As an anti-bomber weapon it
- really was incredible. As an anti-fighter weapon,
- well that may be another story due to its low muzzle
- velocity and slower ROF.
-
-


..... it also put me in a completely different frame of mind when thinking about the effect of a 40mm M79 grenade launcher round.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:42 AM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- Sniper762x51 wrote:
-- I believe it was Churchill said "quantity has a
-- quaility all it own"
-
- I might be wrong, but I believe that quotation was
- attributed to Stalin.
-
-
- Blutarski


you might be correct . I heard it on the T-34 tank show.



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Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:46 AM
Spinnetti wrote:

snip
-
- The whole 'vulching' thing is just a game
- condition... hardly sporting in a game, but a
- requirement in war...
-
I would agree there. In a this game the fun is flying and testing ur skill. In war it is simply winning at any means and surviving.

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Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:55 AM
I found the show disappointing in a couple ways. First, it seemed that the commercials came often and were long breaks. Second, while there was some cool footage and interviews I hadn't seen before, it was pretty shallow compared to the old 'Wings of the Luftwaffe' episodes. I think they should have called it, 'Some Random Bits of History about the Luftwaffe' /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Dennis

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:55 AM
GR142_Astro wrote:
-
- JG26_Red wrote:
-- the Panzer Mark IV easily outclassed the
-- Sherman on its own alone...
--
-- history channel had a show about weapons etc...
-- Tiger Vs. Sherman, which was the better tank...
-- guess who said was the betteR?
--
--
-
- Not true at all. With only 50mm armor front and 30mm
- sides, it was not a hard kill even for a 75mm
- Shermie and it was dead meat facing a 76mm or
- Firefly with its 17lber. It did have a lower
- profile, but without having sloping armor anywhere
- on the superstructure, punctures were not hard to
- come by.


..... True, but the reverse was also true. The Sherman was vulnerable to a German 75/42 or 75/48 at all NWE battle ranges. Even match up.

-
- Re: Sherman vs Tiger, roughly 55,000 shermies were
- built vs 1,500 tigers. Sherman was ideally suited to
- mass production and it was as reliable as.....well,
- a Sherman Tank.
-
- Tigers had numerous design flaws, including:
-
- Roadwheel design that allowed mud and rock to build
- up to a point of immobilization
-
- Slow, slow, slow turret traverse
-
- Delicate driveline, final drives. Goose the throttle
- too hard or bind it up in a ditch and it's
- goodnight.
-
- I won't even discuss the old wooden European
- bridges.
-
- Cumbersom track system: Too wide for European rail
- system. To travel by rail, the wide battle tracks
- had to be removed and the narrow sets put on
- (including removing all the outer roadwheels and
- fenders). Lengthy proceedure just to get it on the
- rail car. The Germans shipped by rail whenever
- possible to avoid taxing the Tiger's poor
- "automotive" performance.
-
- With the Shermie, the crew just jumped in and said,
- "Drive 100 miles?" "No problem."
-
- I'll take the Sherm.


..... IIRC, just shy of half the German tanks in NWE were Panthers or Tigers (would have to go back and check the divisional o/b's). The 75mm Sherman was unable to penetrate either German model frontally from any range, and not much better against the sides of a Tiger. The 76mm Shermans were not much better. The Germans indeed had slower turret traverse rates (big guns), but were able to slew or pivot in place on their tracks, which the Sherman were not able to do. The P's and T's had lower ground pressure than the Shermans, which gave them better mobility in bad going. And German tanks had much better optics and sights. The loss rates among American tank crews were so high that, by the time of the Bulge, there was a severe shortage of trained tank crews; tanks were going into action with shorthanded crews and/or hastily trained infantrymen inside. American tankers in NWE would have happily traded in their Shermans for Panthers.


Blutarski

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:34 AM
I am just sure that the producers of the German Tank episode simply bludgeoned those poor old Wehrmacht tanker vets into trashing their own equipment's poor reliabilty and heavy weight.

On balance, the German tankers were very fair. The first appearance of the T-34 was a huge problem according to them and there is nothing about the earlier Panzers to indicate that wouldn't be the truth.

The Tiger was most welcomed but had logisitcal problems and was too heavy for the terrain.

The Panther, they said, was their best answer to the T-34, but it had poor reliability. all of the tales included seemingly fantastically bad odds where units of Panthers/Tigers wiped out or degraded enemy units three to ten times their size and inflicted huge losses through superior range, hitting ability, optics, and radio coordination. Problem was there were always more of the allied enemy coming from the east or west and they had to get lucky a lot less per tank. It sounded rather like the attrition that the Luftwaffe endured.


They also said the Sherman was dangerous because there were so many of them, and they had radios, which the Germans held as an advantage over the Russians, but not the Anglo-American forces. While head to head, the Sherman was little match for more than a Panzer III, more were always around, were fairly manueverable, and could employ team tactics via radio to outflank problem positions.

Throughout the later part of the war, loss of air superiority was cited as a huge problem, as aircraft seemed fairly up to taking out tanks. The IL-2 was specifically cited as a terror by the Kursk survivors.

The Germans also lost much of their mechanized ability aside from tanks, reduced from driving German rigs, to captured allied ones, and eventually relying on horses.

There wasn't much to quibble with there, especially since it was ALL from the German tanker perspective. Some conspiracy to make German weaponry come off as crap. . . .

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 05:38 AM
Just a correction for Astro:

The Panzer IV Versions H and J (which were the two standard versions in Europe) had a front armor of 80mm. The engineers tried to equip it with 100mm but that brought it out of balance.

And when comparing Tigers to Shermans in the category of mobility you always have to remember that the Tiger was never meant to be a "standard tank" but always a weapon to use to either stop the enemy by pure firepower (a moveable bunker) or push a hole through enemy defenses ... After that the "normal" tanks take over.

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Historical Skins for Luftwaffe-Fighters

Message Edited on 10/24/0305:39AM by csThor

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:10 AM
OMG not another Sherman is better controversy. Just read "Death Traps" by Belton Y. Cooper and let it sink in - the Sherman was no match for anything the Germans had later in the war. Sure it was easy to repair as Mr. Cooper was witness to how many times all they had to do was to replace the turret or tracks and "clean out the remains" and repaint the tank after it was knocked out and send out another crew to the slaughter. Sure we won the war but not because of the Sherman but in spite of it. The Pershing tank would have been available in larger numbers if Patton had not nixed the idea, which is a huge and not well known blunder.

A german tank commander once said - our tanks are ten times better than the Shermans. The only trouble is for every one of ours they have eleven. This may explain some of the "Stubborn" German resistance even when they were at times outnumbered on the western front.

Little known is that the T-34 actually used an American designed suspension system (Christy) that was rejected by the American Army and not used in the Sherman, but was implemented in the later Pershing which allowed improved mobility and speed in rough terrain. The Sherman was OK when it came out but was outclassed later in war.

I hate to say it but life was cheap back then. Hopefully the world will not have to go through something like that again.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:08 AM
"I am just sure that the producers of the German Tank episode simply bludgeoned those poor old Wehrmacht tanker vets into trashing their own equipment's poor reliabilty and heavy weight."

I have seen a few shows with German tankers saying tigers and panthers where unrealiable compared to 34s and shermans, but the germans along with even american\british tankers, when asked at the end, if you had to do it over again and could choose a sherman or a tiger... they all said 1... tiger..

Also the shermans best 75mm was still a POS gun..
The fireflys 76mm was a good gun, but still had to get rather close, a bit closer than the Mark IVs with their 75mm to get a good hit.. the firefly had a good punch, but still had a glass jaw.

Germanys biggest problem was they couldnt make their mind up on what to make, they made so many models of planes, tanks... just pick one and mass produce and KABOOM there ya go... mass produe the IVs, update armor some and put the Panther 75kwk70 and you have a great battle tank... but with the hideous monsters the soviets where making that tank would have had issues on east side against anything other than the 34.

same with planes, so wrapped up in the 109 didnt produce 190 and later 190 models until too late, or even the 262, could have had that sooner.. etc etc etc...

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:15 PM
I also watched the tank bit, one of the allies they interviewed when asked about the tiger said " If we saw a tiger we found an excuse to get out of there...and we did"

couldnt stopp laughing at that one, here is some interesting reading for you tank fans
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/panzer.htm

S!

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http://jg6.net

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:37 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- Ky,
-
- The apparent ineffectiveness of 20mm versus 30mm
- lies in the fact that a 30mm round was about three
- time heavier and quite possibly/probably had a
- better fuse design (slight delay versus
- instantaneous - big difference in effect).
-
-
- Blutarski
-
-


It was also thin walled and packed full of explosives. It was designed for killing aircraft, not tanks, so it exploded with relatively little penetration = big explosions on thin skinned aircraft.

I watched a show on Wings a while back where the historian said that the German 30mm ammunition design was of great interest to the US after the war, and (In his opinion) one of the best conceived pieces of technology by German gunnery engineers.

They made a big boom for sure! Incidently, the big gun on the A-10 was designed after the guns on the Ju-87 "Tankbuster", but it included depleated uranium (A very dense material) for penetration on modern armor pieces. They also make a big boom! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:42 PM
BLUTARSKI wrote:
- Sniper762x51 wrote:
-- I believe it was Churchill said "quantity has a
-- quaility all it own"
-
- I might be wrong, but I believe that quotation was
- attributed to Stalin.
-
-
- Blutarski
-
Getting closer /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif First time I saw this quotation it was attributed to Lenin talking of the Red Army.

Kernow
249 IAP


Message Edited on 10/24/0303:44PM by Kernow

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 06:48 PM
There is a Modern Marvels show about the Luftwaffe on at 3pm PDT this Sat. (Oct. 25). Don't know if its the same one that Bearcat posted about but just wanted to give you guys the heads up....

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.

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:26 AM
JG26_Red wrote:
- Germanys biggest problem was they couldnt make their
- mind up on what to make, they made so many models of
- planes, tanks... just pick one and mass produce and
- KABOOM there ya go... mass produe the IVs, update
- armor some and put the Panther 75kwk70 and you have
- a great battle tank... but with the hideous monsters
- the soviets where making that tank would have had
- issues on east side against anything other than the
- 34.
-
- same with planes, so wrapped up in the 109 didnt
- produce 190 and later 190 models until too late, or
- even the 262, could have had that sooner.. etc etc
- etc...

Unfortunatly easier said then done. It's doubtful the Panther's gun could have fit into the turret of the MkIV because of it's smaller turret ring size. The MkIII was the main battle tank for the first half of the war, but because of the size of it's turret ring, it couldn't accommodate anything larger than the 50mm gun. Ironically Hitler forsaw this problem and ordered that the MkIII should be designed so that it could be upgunned from it's original 37mm.

The Germans did have many different models of AFV, but so did the allies. By 1944 the main battle tanks were the Panthers and MkIV's supplemented by the heavy Tigers. Another problem however was the production of Assault Guns for infantry support. They actually produced a larger number of Assault Guns than Tanks. Both have their advantages and disadvantages. AG's had thick armor and a much lower profile, but limited gun traverse without moving the whole vehicle. But the infantry liked these guns very much and were always clammering for more.

It wasn't that the German's were so wrapped up in the Bf109, it was that they couldn't afford to produce a new aircraft without curtailing existing production. For Messerschmidt to produce a new design would mean stopping existing production and retooling factories, which would cause delays in getting the planes into the field. They had a good, proven, reliable design albeit outdated by the middle of the war, but kept modifying it to try keep it up to par with opposing fighters. They also simplified production to produce more planes (35K). Notice the "F" series had a new semi-retractable tail wheel, but the later "G" series went back to a fixed one. Easier to produce, repair, and replace. The 190's didn't become fully opperational until "42" or about the time the Bf109 was becoming obsolete. They still managed to produce over 20 thousand. Never enough to overcome the allies numerical superiority. Even with enough planes however, you still need the pilots to fly them, and there weren't enough at the end of the war.

By the way, I find it very amusing on how this thread started out talking about the History channels show on the Luftwaffe, but ended up with more posts about the previous show on the Panzers/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

================================================== ========================================




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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:38 AM
Just to put German fighter production in perspective, the 4 engined B-24 was produced in numbers that were 18,190 units.

American factories produced 99,465 fighter a/c out of a total of 295,959 a/c total. That was from July. '40 to Aug. '45.

More detailed info here http://www.au.af.mil/au/afhra/wwwroot/aafsd/aafsd_list_of_tables.html


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"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 04:43 AM
I seen some of it & the main thing I noticed from the gun footage is how the enemy ac that were being blasted werent doing amazing acrobatical manuverings to evade gunfire.
Go figure..... /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 05:14 AM
Hmmm... lets see...

perhaps they were paralysed with fear?

their control column was stuck?

-or-

maybe just, maybe, they were caught completely by surprise http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 07:44 AM
The Luftwaffe were all idiots & cowards who flew crappy aircraft. 60% of all the kills claimed by The Luftwaffe are all bogus. We should have droped a nuke on them just like the Japanese. 109's were obsolete before they even rolled off the line, tiger tanks were scrap heaps on tracks.
Just stating MY opinion.

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Message Edited on 10/25/0301:57AM by Copperhead310th

XyZspineZyX
10-25-2003, 10:49 AM
where is your smile , copperhead ?


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0