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View Full Version : I'm amazed by what Trim can do!!!



rick_475
01-14-2004, 09:24 AM
I have read numerous posts about trim, and because I'm not very curious by nature I never gave it a try. I thought I could be a good pilot without it ... A week ago I read some stuff about Trim on Mudmovers and slowly I started to think about it. Yesterday I finally decided to configure easier controls for Elevator Trim and give it a try in the quick mission builder.

First of all I didn't know what good Trim could do (well, I had an idea!) and I didn't know when and where to use it. So I started to play with it, checking the effects on the plane and after a few minutes I started to understand the whole principle of trim. I was flying with a La-5, cruising at fast speed and low altitude and the nose kept going up, so I put some positive Trim to level the plane. After calibrating the Trim properly I noticed how Stable the plane was. I was flying very close to the ground with the hands off the joystick and the plane remained at the same altitude. Without Trim I would have to keep correcting my trajectory all the time. Then I made some more testing with Negative Elevator Trim in order to test the climbing. Once again I was amazed, the plane was so stable and I could climb a lot faster! It will be a lot easier piloting bombers and bombing targets from now on. With the fighters I pretty sure I'll be more precise than ever when I'll target bombers from behind because I won't have to shoot and correct my trajectory all the time. To the people who are reticent to use trim I say : Give it a try in the quick mission builder and you'll be amazed just like me. I configured the Elevator Trim on my 1st Hat Switch. Up = Positive (the nose will go down) Down = Negative trim (nose will go up) and left-right = Neutral Elevator Trim... My second Hat switch has the pan view on it. That setting works really great for me.

rick_475
01-14-2004, 09:24 AM
I have read numerous posts about trim, and because I'm not very curious by nature I never gave it a try. I thought I could be a good pilot without it ... A week ago I read some stuff about Trim on Mudmovers and slowly I started to think about it. Yesterday I finally decided to configure easier controls for Elevator Trim and give it a try in the quick mission builder.

First of all I didn't know what good Trim could do (well, I had an idea!) and I didn't know when and where to use it. So I started to play with it, checking the effects on the plane and after a few minutes I started to understand the whole principle of trim. I was flying with a La-5, cruising at fast speed and low altitude and the nose kept going up, so I put some positive Trim to level the plane. After calibrating the Trim properly I noticed how Stable the plane was. I was flying very close to the ground with the hands off the joystick and the plane remained at the same altitude. Without Trim I would have to keep correcting my trajectory all the time. Then I made some more testing with Negative Elevator Trim in order to test the climbing. Once again I was amazed, the plane was so stable and I could climb a lot faster! It will be a lot easier piloting bombers and bombing targets from now on. With the fighters I pretty sure I'll be more precise than ever when I'll target bombers from behind because I won't have to shoot and correct my trajectory all the time. To the people who are reticent to use trim I say : Give it a try in the quick mission builder and you'll be amazed just like me. I configured the Elevator Trim on my 1st Hat Switch. Up = Positive (the nose will go down) Down = Negative trim (nose will go up) and left-right = Neutral Elevator Trim... My second Hat switch has the pan view on it. That setting works really great for me.

TheGozr
01-14-2004, 10:08 AM
The prob is that i don't know where my % is and should..

Trim is cool but there is no indication of the trim angle..

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

BaldieJr
01-14-2004, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
The prob is that i don't know where my % is and should..

Trim is cool but there is no indication of the trim angle..

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/ <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Use your inclinometer, altimeter, or artificial horizon.

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flyingskid2
01-14-2004, 10:43 AM
i think if you put trim on a slider then you will know the trim position by the physical position of your slider.

i've just mapped my elevator trim on a slider control but haven't played with it yet. i used to have it on buttons.

Alexi_Alx_Anova
01-14-2004, 10:54 AM
Flyingskid2, I'm just waiting for the trolls to lunch on you! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Trim is great. I've been using elevator trim for ages but have only recently started aileron trim. Works a treat on the Jug.

The problem is, I don't know what planes (variants) have what types of trim. Does anyone have a table of planes and their trim options? If not, it would be a useful reference.

i.e.,

Plane Elevator Aileron Rudder
---------------------------------
Blah X - X
Blah X X X
.
.
.
etc.


Alexi
[Edit: Nuts, proportional fonts!]
-----------------------------
Drug of choice....coffee

http://web.onetel.net.uk/~alx_747/coffee.jpg
-----------------------------

rick_475
01-14-2004, 11:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TheGozr:
The prob is that i don't know where my % is and should..

Trim is cool but there is no indication of the trim angle..
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with you it's a little bit hard to set the trim correctly. In my case, with a little bit of practice I managed to make it work pretty good by clicking on my hat switch. Per exemple : 5 Positive Elevator Trim clicks (check the result), then 1 Negative click if necessary. I found this method to be easier than "holding" the click.

TX-EcoDragon
01-14-2004, 11:19 AM
In the sim your aircraft starts out at takeoff position, that is the only position that any piston pilot uses any indicator for. Why? Because the aircraft is on the ground at that point! Once airbrone you don't need any indication other than aircraft attitude. (in addition to control pressures in the real world)

If you have to hold forward stick to keep the nose level, dial in some nose up trim, and vice versa. Thats the way its done in the sim and in the real world.

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

Member-Team Raven
http://www.waynehandley.com

(Former)Reserve Pilot Aircraft #2 of Gruppo 313
Pattuglia Acrobatica Virtuale
http://www.vhvt.com/

http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

http://www.calaggieflyers.com

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg

TheGozr
01-14-2004, 11:24 AM
Thats cool THX i'll try that..

Great idea with the hat since i have no use for them http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

SKULLS Virga
01-14-2004, 12:47 PM
I too have my trim at the hat switch and love it there. Trim is one of the most important flight controls you have at your disposal. I try to fly all phases of flight, except hard manuevering, with trim almost alone,at least to the extent that it is possible. Your aircraft will fly cleaner, be much more stable and once you get the hang of it, it will greatly reduce your work load.

RayBanJockey
01-14-2004, 12:56 PM
Just wait till you are going fast and pull your trim all the way back and turn! OMG You will own anybody who leaves their alone. Good for deflection shots and getting around fast after the first pass.

Trim has done more for me than you can possibly imagine (smileyface.rbj)

I recommend that you even go so far as to recalibrate your joystick so the center is a little furthur back, and set all your joystick sliders to 100. If you have a FFB joystick even re-do the spring file so it sits a little forward as well. This is the RBJ Shift(tm).

Trim won't make you climb any better though (numberswise). It will only make it so you don't have to hold the stick in place while climbing. And for speeds below 300km/h, it won't make you turn better, but it will make things alot more comfortable.

Definitely put that puppy on the slider so you know where it is. Your primary hatswitch is best served as a viewing device, not as a trim controller.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/testsig.gif
To anyone who wants to take away my trim on a slider, "From My Cold Dead HANDS (http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf)."

TheGozr
01-14-2004, 01:21 PM
But how does it go? how do you know that you R at max?

1 2 3 4 5 etc.. and the middle..?

-GOZR
"TheMotorheads" All for One and One for All (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/)

[This message was edited by TheGozr on Wed January 14 2004 at 12:31 PM.]

westcoastphil
01-14-2004, 02:21 PM
This is for those few who use CH flightsticks, or even you experts out there.

I have CH Flightstick pro, the USB model, and use what I think to be two centering sliders as adjustments for trim. Is this correct? Or am I fooling myself and just throwing the stick calibration off?

http://members.cox.net/riknbkr330/109g6small.jpg

RayBanJockey
01-14-2004, 03:08 PM
Centering sliders are of limited use. Might as well just be a hat switch that goes in 2 directions.

Good sliders are ones that stay where they are put.

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/testsig.gif
To anyone who wants to take away my trim on a slider, "From My Cold Dead HANDS (http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf)."

Arnie_OT
01-14-2004, 04:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Virga:
I too have my trim at the hat switch and love it there. Trim is one of the most important flight controls you have at your disposal. I try to fly all phases of flight, except hard manuevering, with trim almost alone,at least to the extent that it is possible. Your aircraft will fly cleaner, be much more stable and once you get the hang of it, it will greatly reduce your work load.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmm, makes one wonder why there is actually a stick in a plane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

rick_475
01-14-2004, 05:05 PM
Oh yeah, definitely the slider! I just made some more experiments with the controls and I decided to switch the Trim from my hat switch to the slider. The "roulette" is now taking care of increase-decrease power. Because of that move I changed my 1st hat switch with pan view and 2nd with flaps management. A brand new feeling! Now I wonder if I should set the Aileron trim on my 2nd hat switch instead of flaps!? Is aileron as useful as elevator trim? I didn't experiment with that...

thanks for your feedback!

BfHeFwMe
01-14-2004, 05:41 PM
I placed mine on a mouse axis, than switch my trackir into mouse mode, now I've got Lind Blair giving me some trim. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CantabCommie
01-14-2004, 07:02 PM
Umm...forgive my ignorance comrades, but did all the FB flyable planes actually have trim controls? I just looked through Nijboer's book COCKPIT (which I am sure is hardly the last word on such things) and I noticed them on very few planes (for example the FW190 has trim controls, but the Hurricane and Aircobra appear not to have them). Are the controls just out of sight, or did some planes have them and some planes not? If only some planes had them isn't it unrealistic to make use of them in the sim on those planes that did not?

horseback
01-14-2004, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by westcoastphil:
This is for those few who use CH flightsticks, or even you experts out there.

I have CH Flightstick pro, the USB model, and use what I think to be two centering sliders as adjustments for trim. Is this correct? Or am I fooling myself and just throwing the stick calibration off?

http://members.cox.net/riknbkr330/109g6small.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I use a USB Combatstick myself, and the two centering wheels are offsets to the X and Y axes on it. To test if these are independent potentiometers, go to your Control Inputs for your joystick and watch if the red/green squares move as you move the wheels. If they don't move, you have independent trim pots. If they do, they're offsets for your stick's X and Y axes.

If you're using the Fighterstick, I assume you're using the rudders and throttle as well. If so, you have two POV hats, and one is not used for POV. Using the CH Manager, you can map the second POV hat to be used as a series of buttons, and then in Il-2 or FB Inputs, you can map those buttons for your elevator and rudder trim, and possibly aileron trim as well, although it might start getting sloppy at some point.

Admittedly, the button option may be less accurate than the slider option, but I don't have the sliders to spare after mapping throttle, rudder, toebrakes, and flaps (stick's throttle axis) on my available potentiometers.

The button option is close enough in most cases, and since I have short thumbs, I use the Throttle POV for view, and the stick's POV hat for trim, and I don't inadvertently stall myself out looking around while maneauvering.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

CantabCommie
01-15-2004, 03:35 AM
OK, I've just checked the 'Pilots Notes' for the Bf109. Trim controls were located to the pilots left as two wheels, one for adjusting the tailplane, one for adjusting the flaps. Notes say they can thus be easily adjusted by one hand. Does anyone have information as to how these were placed, or worked, on other aircraft, and whether or not all aircraft had them?

pinche_bolillo
01-15-2004, 03:40 AM
hum, I thought that all the american fighters had trim control for all surfaces. one thing about the game I dislike is how all the planes have combat flaps, when in reality most ww 2 a/c did not have such a feature.

p1ngu666
01-15-2004, 03:50 AM
on the p51 they where seporate wires to the normal ones. according to a cutaway in a book
not all planes have aliron trim, eg 109 i think

not got on well with aliron/rudder trim, any tips?
doesnt seem to work for me :|
oh and i use the kb, i have no slider apart from throttle :\

SpinSpinSugar
01-15-2004, 03:51 AM
I have an analogue CH Flightstick Pro. The two trim wheels are not self-centering and stay where they are put. I've not tried this in combat, but I assumed they were for on-the-fly centering calibration for the joystick. I've not tried to see if I can get more than 100% deflection using these, but will experiment later on.

Hey, I'm just getting used to combat flaps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers,

SSS

Arnie_OT
01-15-2004, 04:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pinche_bolillo:
hum, I thought that all the american fighters had trim control for all surfaces. one thing about the game I dislike is how all the planes have combat flaps, when in reality most ww 2 a/c did not have such a feature.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know the Hurri doesnt have them.


And as for trim, from what I know now and have read. IMO it should only be used as it is intended to be used: stabilizing the airplane.

westcoastphil
01-15-2004, 08:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by horseback:

I use a USB Combatstick myself, and the two centering wheels are offsets to the X and Y axes on it. To test if these are independent potentiometers, go to your Control Inputs for your joystick and watch if the red/green squares move as you move the wheels. If they don't move, you have independent trim pots. If they do, they're offsets for your stick's X and Y axes.

If you're using the Fighterstick, I assume you're using the rudders and throttle as well. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for the suggestion. Looks like I've got X and Y offsets. I'm using the Flightstick Pro and have CH rudders as well.

I've got my mouse wheel set up as elevator trim, but now will have to resort to using the keyboard as aileron trim.

Phil

http://members.cox.net/riknbkr330/109g6small.jpg

horseback
01-15-2004, 09:13 AM
The expression 'combat flaps' appears to have come into use after a few enterprising souls found that applying just a little bit of flaps in a turn allowed them to tighten the turn (remember that flaps were a relatively new development in the forties). The keyboard button allows it as a waypoint to takeoff setting on a/c that had a control wheel, but it doesn't for those that don't, like the Hurricane, which had only two flap settings, I believe. Expect a similar setup for the early Spits, at least.

Most flaps were controlled by a wheel located near the pilot's left thigh. In the case of the 109, there was also another wheel mounted side by side with the flap wheeel for the trim of the elevator which actually adjusted the angle of the whole stabilizer, if I understand it correctly. Looking at my prizeworthy collection of 1/48th scale 109 & 190 models, I see no inflight adjustable trim surfaces on the elevators, but there is a decal marking stabilizer angle just forward of its leading edge, which kind of tells me that it could be adjusted.

German aircraft designers largely ignored adjustable trim controls; they had tabs installed on the rudder and ailerons that were set on the ground for normal cruise speed. As the pilot moved the aircraft faster or slower, he had to adjust his pressure on the rudder and stick to compensate.

This made tests of German aircraft unpopular for American pilots, because they weren't used to constantly working the rudder or maintaining constant pressure with one leg for long periods. They were used to trim controls which looked like little ailerons on the larger control surfaces. These trim controls were usually round control knob type thingies (like the round volume controls on your radio, only about 6-10cm in diameter), usually located somewhere between the throttle and above the flap wheel.

A pilot would be constantly 'dialing in' his trim on his rudder and elevator (and sometimes one or both ailerons)as his speed or throttle setting changed. There was a recent thread about a passage from "To Fly and Fight" by Bud Anderson, in which Anderson mentions making constant trim adjustment in combat. I have the distinct impression that trim is more aerodynamicly efficient than small gross adjustments of the main control surfaces.

As earlier stated, you could trim your aircraft for a certain speed, and it would continue to fly straight in the climb or descent or level, allowing the pilot to rest his legs and arms & move around a little on long flights (a must for escort flights or bomber/transport missions of any length).

I could only imagine the reaction of German fighter pilots upon learning that Mustangs were equipped with relief tubes, something impossible to use on a plane without trim controls, and unnecessary on a plane with only 90 minutes' endurance...

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

horseback
01-15-2004, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by westcoastphil:


I've got my mouse wheel set up as elevator trim, but now will have to resort to using the keyboard as aileron trim.

Phil

http://members.cox.net/riknbkr330/109g6small.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Phil

Judging from your sig, you're in the vicinity of a Frys'. In my experience, they usually have the lowest price for the Pro Throttle you can find at a walk in store (got mine for $105 18 months ago). If you have the cash, it's a good investment.

If you don't, I'd recommend changing the default keyboard trim commands to single keys to reduce potential 'pilot error.'

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Im-Luvin-Pies
01-15-2004, 09:49 AM
It is pretty good, Ive started to use it recently.

As the RBJ guy says, if im head on at someone and were about to enter a dogfight, for the initial flip over, ill whack positive trim to full on my wheel on my x45. Do this a 2km away coz it takes time to wind up then whack the stick back and watch my la7 flip over like a bat on speed! I can nearly always be pointing the other way b4 the other guy does.

But I only use trim on the initial flip over turn as keeping it right up messes with my other turns, and if the fight becomes a stall fight, as many 1v1's do with turny burn style pilots, no trim whatsoever coz at slow speeds itll just mess your stalls up when your trying to ride them and float.

Flaps ive never really got the hang of though, I always use them and they end up jamming coz im going too fast, and in turns they bleed energy at too low sppeds. hmm more practise.

Cheers and happy shootin,

Pies. (jon)

I_LUV_PIES!!

SpremeCommander
01-15-2004, 02:39 PM
luvnpies,

A good idea is use no flaps at over 300kph or so. Then think of them as gears in a car: "combat"=3rd gear, "takeoff"=2nd gear, "raised"=4th gear, and so on.

Im-Luvin-Pies
01-16-2004, 04:47 PM
no thats too simplistic because lots of flaps at slower speeds bleed energy. its such a fine balance that i cant get right.

I_LUV_PIES!!