PDA

View Full Version : Oleg, about radar...



x__CRASH__x
03-05-2004, 05:43 AM
Are there any night fighters being planed for future additions of IL2FB, or maybe BoB? If so, do you need any help in coming up with an operable radar scope?

I work with radar for a living. I fly with it, find, know it, love it. Flying in the radar operator seat of a night fighter would be very fun for me, and I would hope for your fans.

If I can be any help in this aspect, as far as equipment on specific planes, how that equipment was operated, what the operator saw for a target indication, etc... please let me know.


Granted, I would have to do a great deal of research for the antiquated equipment, but I know of some sources, and I think my experience would make the research easier, and the results easier to apply to the sim. It would be my pleasure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


For a small fee of $300 per hour. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Kidding! I'm just kidding! Please let me know if I can help out.

<S>

www.ghostskies.com (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

x__CRASH__x
03-05-2004, 05:43 AM
Are there any night fighters being planed for future additions of IL2FB, or maybe BoB? If so, do you need any help in coming up with an operable radar scope?

I work with radar for a living. I fly with it, find, know it, love it. Flying in the radar operator seat of a night fighter would be very fun for me, and I would hope for your fans.

If I can be any help in this aspect, as far as equipment on specific planes, how that equipment was operated, what the operator saw for a target indication, etc... please let me know.


Granted, I would have to do a great deal of research for the antiquated equipment, but I know of some sources, and I think my experience would make the research easier, and the results easier to apply to the sim. It would be my pleasure. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


For a small fee of $300 per hour. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


Kidding! I'm just kidding! Please let me know if I can help out.

&lt;S&gt;

www.ghostskies.com (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

Luftwaffe_109
03-05-2004, 04:09 PM
Bump for flyable nightfighter Ju-88s and De Havilland Mosquitos... I could not imagine being any happier then if they (especially Ju 88) where included in IL2-FB.

Regards

x__CRASH__x
03-06-2004, 09:08 AM
bump for Oleg

www.ghostskies.com (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)

LEXX_Luthor
03-06-2004, 09:16 AM
Wierd this keeps popping up. For FB the AI see perfect at night...and the FB tail gunners too. (remember the tail gunners? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

BoB radar maybe. Just have to mod the Brit radars. Small well defined theater. I would like to see Oleg mod the Brit visual ground observers. The Chinese observers were as good as radar for Russians and Flying Tigers.



__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"I don't have the V2 or B25s, so I'm going to reinstall" ~Bearcat99
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood? Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
03-06-2004, 09:21 AM
Also for BoB I hope they mod group intercept orders from the ground. Radar was more useful in daytime than at night (Battle of Kursk...carrier defense).



__________________
"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
"I don't have the V2 or B25s, so I'm going to reinstall" ~Bearcat99
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood? Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

x__CRASH__x
03-06-2004, 09:42 AM
Well, I was speaking of flyable radars. Not being totally versed on when flying radars were actually introduced during the war, I'd have to guess in the later years.

But my intention was to help any projects that were in the works, if any.

So... any?

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

Bobsqueek
03-06-2004, 10:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
I'd have to guess in the later years<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

round about 1940 time, on blenhiems and defiants during the blitz

Click the link for my skins
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Bobsqueek-template.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=bobs&comefrom=top5&ts=1076359444)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)[/quote]

x__CRASH__x
03-06-2004, 10:07 AM
I sit corrected. Thank you.

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

rbstr44
03-06-2004, 07:56 PM
My recollection is that Oleg commented here that early radar sets are an order of magnitude more complex than a simulated feature such as complex engine management.

http://www.nald.ca/CLR/faraway/stories/s2/images/23-2.jpg

Displacement through a Slab of Glass
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/displacementcolorthreebeams.jpg
Entering and exiting rays are displaced
from each other, but parallel.
Refraction of Light (http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/refraction.html)

x__CRASH__x
03-07-2004, 12:14 AM
Thats possible. But I figured it could be broken down and made easier. I mean the game knows where the other aircraft are. If that can be incorporated into a radar display, taking into account the limitations of that radar for distance and resolution. Then an operator could extrapolate the bearing and altitude.

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

x__CRASH__x
03-07-2004, 09:24 PM
Bump for Oleg

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

Aaron_GT
03-08-2004, 08:27 AM
Ideally you'd need to model the navigational
aids for bombers used too if you have
nightfighters with radar. Later you'd also
need the radar warning receptors.

I think BoB first needs to concentrate on
day fighters, ground control, and ground
radar.

owlwatcher
03-08-2004, 05:36 PM
Having ground & air controlers with radar with inter-linked visual sighting would add alot to the game.
The electronic war as a whole would be very interesting to see.
Radio's should also be done,
It would be nice to fly a Stuka & have a Foward observer direct you to target.
Would love to be a ground control player and
Tell you all where to go.
How else could you play BoB without it?
In the PTO in the southwest radar & coast watchers played key roles in the fighting.
Night Fighters & window being available.
Found this today on the toilet.
"It was only in April 45 that they were only beaten in a series of fierce encounters with MTBs that to a large extent were only made possible by the very effective airbrone radar developed by the RAF. Air patrols could now detect them as soon as they left harbor and track them all the way across the north sea."
PTboats by Bryan Cooper
Used to counter Sboats. Might be something to look into?!?!
As long as the Radar, radio were done with the detail of the planes. Would be interesting following the developments threw the war.

rbstr44
03-08-2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by x__CRASH__x:
Thats possible. But I figured it could be broken down and made easier. I mean the game knows where the other aircraft are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How very true. What I recall of that thread (the one that I can remember, but cannot find with the forum search engine! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif ), Oleg seemed to be commenting more on the complexity for the operator (simmer) to use and interpret an accurately modeled, early 1940's, airborne radar screen [my interpretation, anyway]. For example, this early CRT set below would require some training and experience to be used effectively:
http://www.nald.ca/CLR/faraway/stories/s2/images/23-2.jpg

Still, I think I know what you mean. Here's my idea, then. In some respects, the current mini-map could serve as a simple radar display. Right now, it shows all planes (if you have that option turned on) and terrain, but it could be substantially limited to only show aircraft in the players line of sight, or at a pre-determined radius from the plane. Even better (harder to model), would be a simulation that showed only those radar contacts (blips) based on relative bearing/azimuth, elevation angle, also, slant range (as well as LOS + ground returns/ cluttering + blind spots), and even simple IFF. Furthermore, the strength of the returns could use be based on the following radar formula:

The amount of power Pr returning to the receiving antenna is given by the radar equation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/math/8f0f9673acbdcc47846101dfc5c9ee22.png

where
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
<LI>Pt = transmitter power,
<LI>Gt = gain of transmitting antenna,
<LI>Ar = area of receiving antenna,
<LI>sigma = scattering coefficient of target,
<LI>Rt = distance from transmitter to target,
<LI>Rr = distance from target to receiver.
[/list]
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar

Anyway, I think "sigma" value was a factor studied much after the war when it was discovered that Northrop flying wings were almost invisible to radar; so, that might be a value that is hard to come by for many AEP planes. Maybe the other values are better known for specific radar types? Nevertheless, I think Gibbage's Horten flying wing will have the most advantage in the scattering coefficient department.

The simulation of radio electronics used during the war could easily be incorporated into a complete separate sim: IFF, active jammers, "Window", radio signal detection, radar detection, radio direction finding, etc., etc. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Oh, and if you selected a plane with simulated radar, your top speed would have to take a hit because those external radar aerials induce a lot of drag. Well, I better stop before I make a simple concept too complicated to implement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Displacement through a Slab of Glass
http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/displacementcolorthreebeams.jpg
Entering and exiting rays are displaced
from each other, but parallel.
Refraction of Light (http://sol.sci.uop.edu/~jfalward/refraction/refraction.html)

[This message was edited by rbstr44 on Mon March 08 2004 at 07:50 PM.]

x__CRASH__x
03-09-2004, 03:54 AM
Too late! LOL You've already made it complicated. But precise. The problem I see is that tackeling this job trying to emulate the exact radar parameters of the systems that were used would be very difficult at best, and more likely impossible.

The reason that I say this is because we would have to get ahold of the specific data of each and every radar that Oleg would want modeled, and provide the answers for it's transmitter power, the gain of transmitting antenna, and the area of receiving antenna. In my limited research into this I have not found that data on the internet.

I suppose if this was given a green light by Oleg I could really dig and start looking, provided he tells me what systems he wants to model. But HOW he would model the way a radar acts is a little beyond me.

Two more variables that you mention, distance from transmitter to target, and distance from target to receiver are the easy part. As far as the sigma, the scattering coefficient of target, you've got me on that one. There are some other parameters you did not mention, which are the specific parameters of the radar itself. Like What RF, PRF, and Pulse Duration would it have. But those values aren't as important as what those provide to the operator, which is detection and resolution. But in order to provide the latter, I would need the former.

Anyway, we could really nuke this out. But I would be willing to bet that IF Oleg wanted my help in tackeling such a project, that it would probably be scaled back a bit. Make it more generic so that it would be easier to incorporate into the game. Possibly modeling one generic airborne radar, and just change the display.

Oleg, I would like to hear your thoughts on if this is something you would like to look into.

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

WWMaxGunz
03-09-2004, 04:25 AM
The Black Box War.

But with the AI having radar eyes there's little use.

Having the radar/detector/ecm on the plane could be easier simulated if the players were not to run the gear and only take info from a simulated specialist on board. We don't exactly set radio dials no either, do we?


Neal

x__CRASH__x
03-09-2004, 04:40 AM
hmmm. I didn't think about how to incorporate the AI into all this. I don't usually think of the AI, since I only ever play online against other people.


hmmmm

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

Bobsqueek
03-09-2004, 10:08 AM
well

couldnt you have a radar operator calling out bearings and heights

like the AI radio chatter, they tell you heights and stuff

that could be a comprimise, the player couldnt operate the radar, but the AI would and do the same job

does that make sense?

Click the link for my skins
http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Bobsqueek-template.jpg (http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=bobs&comefrom=top5&ts=1076359444)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)[/quote]

WWMaxGunz
03-09-2004, 01:03 PM
It doesn't have to be an AI like AI pilot. As the last poster said, just messages. I said AI because it's a computer function to simulate having a radar crewman the way that radio to ground simulates an HQ and radio operator that I doubt there's an AI entity for.

It could be something to toggle on and off for planes with radars.

In bombers there were also the radio guys who ran the triangulation equipment to know when they were on target. I've seen the basic layouts of the German systems used to night bomb England and I wonder if it was possible to do for the Brits except that Germany was so far that accurate triangulation was probably impossible even if signal strength could have been high enough.

I wonder if the Germans did that over Russian cities? Poor Leningrad! The things that they went through were only outdone and redeemed at all by the fact that they survived unconquered.


Neal

x__CRASH__x
03-10-2004, 05:37 AM
Those are good thoughts. My AI thought was that they would be so good that there was no way you could sneak up on them. Like if you were trying to go after the night fighters. They would always have the advantage. But I guess if you were the pilot on a night fighter, having the RO (Radar Operator) calling bearing, distance and alt difference to you would be very useful.

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

WWMaxGunz
03-10-2004, 08:19 AM
You know those radars were pretty directional and... the scope films I've seen remind me of a what a ground radar unit would show if it didn't have a range window and you aimed it up at something. Hehe... I used to work with radar units too, my MOS was 17B2T back in the mid-late 70's.


Neal

x__CRASH__x
03-10-2004, 03:27 PM
scope film? Something you found on the internet? Know where I could see some?

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

WWMaxGunz
03-10-2004, 04:37 PM
No... about 15 years or so ago on one of those Wings shows. Or maybe it was in 93. Showed a round scope tube with trace line and squiggles they pointed to showing returns from a target. I think it was the same kind of display used for antisub. How many makes of oscilliscope were there for the military in the 40's? Maybe even the same for Brits and US, and no I didn't see film of German gear. But round tubes then make a whole lot of sense for practical reasons.

I'll have to look again but there might be a replica on Tora, Tora, Tora... still that's Holly weird so the grain of salt plus the rest of the shaker applies.

You think air to air radar is good, try listening to a ground target radar sometime. You can hear things move and it is sooooo neat. Heavy vehicles vibrate lower pitch than light, wheels sound different than tracks, copter blades come and go at the same time and men entrenching... you can listen to clods of dirt tumble as they are thrown. Waves in water, trees in the wind, it's all good.


Neal

x__CRASH__x
03-11-2004, 03:49 AM
Oleg? What are your thoughts?

- Are night fighters something Maddox 1C is looking to add?

- Is a workable radar something Maddox 1C is interested in exploring?

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)

x__CRASH__x
03-11-2004, 10:13 PM
aaaaahhhh choooooo!!



oh, excuse me

Ghost Skies. A Premier IL2FB Dogfight League. (http://www.ghostskies.com)
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/crash2.gif (http://www.ghostskies.com/)
CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum)