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Da777ath
02-24-2016, 10:19 PM
Why does a Tom Clancy title, especially one that is clearly built off of the most recent Ghost Recon mechanics not have the ability for the player to crouch or at the least go Prone. These are very common and useful combat firing position and I think the addition to the player having this ability would make for better gameplay and, at least for me personally, will keep players longterm with this new IP. Also I'd like to add the idea of being able to slide into Prone after sprinting.

THAWK A33
02-25-2016, 02:38 AM
Not to mention
Melee weapons such as knives, axes and machetes would be cool.. (maybe DZ only??) Dogs attacking everyone would add another element of surprise. More animals period (tigers, wolves, deers..etc). Not a big fan of the red marker when you throw a grenade (unrealistic) not to mention player markers so people can track you where ever you go...you should use a device for that. Rainbow 6 seige doesn't have enemy indicators (realism). Last but not least the option to booby-trappe your loot so when you get killed by a rogue agent you can have the last laugh BOOM!!....another element to the DZ to spice things up...will slow down all the wannabe rogue agents.

DaBadger489
02-25-2016, 01:18 PM
Basic MIL/LE tactics require the use of crouching and prone. Especially when in a situation (like in the game) where you can't get that right angle for a shot, so you need to reposition and maintain cover/concealment. So if your looking to make this game as life-like as possible, I would highly recommend adding Crouch and Prone.

SocklessOne
02-25-2016, 08:19 PM
I found myself debating the effectiveness of prone in several sniping situations in the recent beta. I don't believe it will be best or added to the game. The game is cover based. Coming from hours of playing Fallout4 I have to say that crouching in this game will not be as effective as the cover based system. It will take a bit to readjust your thinking to click A on the Xbox One controller to drop down and then aim and fire. The difference is when you let go of aim and reload you drop back down to cover....yes to cover. Making you a harder target to hit so quickly.
I have controller issues so I can value the cover based system once I applied the technique and practiced. Note: your scope will remain near your last target when reloading ammo, a better scope changes recoil and horizontal aiming.

Skridger
02-25-2016, 08:30 PM
You also can't jump I don't think.

I think it would retract from the RPG element of the game. People use crouching, prone and jumping as "Twitch" maneuvers to avoid gunfire in most FPS games.

I noticed this as well, but welcomed the change. It just means you have to take some different strategies when playing the division. Cover will be our best friends.

SocklessOne
02-25-2016, 08:33 PM
Wait, didn't you learn in the tutorial to Double-Tap B? Works when your sprinting too. I felt like I was jumping hurdles in the Dark Zone.

Da777ath
02-26-2016, 07:46 PM
I found myself debating the effectiveness of prone in several sniping situations in the recent beta. I don't believe it will be best or added to the game. The game is cover based. Coming from hours of playing Fallout4 I have to say that crouching in this game will not be as effective as the cover based system. It will take a bit to readjust your thinking to click A on the Xbox One controller to drop down and then aim and fire. The difference is when you let go of aim and reload you drop back down to cover....yes to cover. Making you a harder target to hit so quickly.
I have controller issues so I can value the cover based system once I applied the technique and practiced. Note: your scope will remain near your last target when reloading ammo, a better scope changes recoil and horizontal aiming.


You also can't jump I don't think.

I think it would retract from the RPG element of the game. People use crouching, prone and jumping as "Twitch" maneuvers to avoid gunfire in most FPS games.

I noticed this as well, but welcomed the change. It just means you have to take some different strategies when playing the division. Cover will be our best friends.

Twitch manuvers and the idea that I can only use the cover system in this game and not jump, crouch, or prone won't detract from the game necessarily. It is a Tom Clancy title, they are and have always been about tactical realism. I understand people spamming buttons in order to avoid gunfire from enemies especially PvP, but a game based on realism should have realistic human movement. If you read my earlier post my example for the ability to crouch explains what I'm about to share. In a firefight you will not Army of Two style hug your cover. You will disposition your self from enemy gunfire with cover, but why turn your back to your enemy even if you were hiding behind a car? You would have your muzzle and face in the direction of the enemy. There is a thing called fire superiority and it is a deciding factor in a firefight. Not hiding behind something and not pointing your muzzle downrange. But I suppose I'm trying to get coders and game artist to understand the mechanics of modern combat. Like virgins studying sex they are, no matter how much paintball they play.

Da777ath
02-26-2016, 07:50 PM
Oh and another thing, bullets travel down walls. That's another reason you don't press yourself against a wall during a firefight.

Da777ath
02-27-2016, 12:49 AM
That example I mentioned, here it is from another thread:


Scenario, you are offset from a low wall or a car 5 to 10 meters. Your enemy is just beyond the obstacle. If you turn and run to the nearest cover behind you, you then risk getting shot in the back and not gaining fire superiority. However with your ability to assume a kneeling position and lessen your silhouette you are now utilizing cover without hugging it, such as the cover system does. The cover system isn't bad but the ability to at least assume lower posture while firing will bridge that gap and make you the slightest bit more accurate. This is a Tom Clancy title, and if realism is the goal then the solution is obvious. Not to overstate my claim but there are a lot of aspects of the player movement in cover based games especially in a Tom Clancy that if you were in a real-life situation you just wouldn't do.

Hitman5858mc.
02-27-2016, 04:00 AM
I agree with you all,it would be better if you could shot from the crouch and prone. The aim is wild, one gun i had i was shooting from cover the aim was going to the left. It took to many shoots to kill them that was crazy

LS-Saurlok
02-27-2016, 11:16 AM
That example I mentioned, here it is from another thread:


Scenario, you are offset from a low wall or a car 5 to 10 meters. Your enemy is just beyond the obstacle. If you turn and run to the nearest cover behind you, you then risk getting shot in the back and not gaining fire superiority. However with your ability to assume a kneeling position and lessen your silhouette you are now utilizing cover without hugging it, such as the cover system does. The cover system isn't bad but the ability to at least assume lower posture while firing will bridge that gap and make you the slightest bit more accurate. This is a Tom Clancy title, and if realism is the goal then the solution is obvious. Not to overstate my claim but there are a lot of aspects of the player movement in cover based games especially in a Tom Clancy that if you were in a real-life situation you just wouldn't do.

So i think we are misjudging this a bit. First and foremost this game is and has always said to have been developed as an RPG, that means that realism is thrown out when it doesn't feel right or work well within the confines of the RPG system, yes bullets penetrate most walls, grenades would blow a hole in most of the buildings we are fighting in, and going into different positions for firing would give you a lot of new angles to attack from and Balance for......

Therefor crouch and prone are not in the game, if you leave cover to move, it is a risk you are taking to get into a better position if you are being over run and it has the risk of you being shot because you stand up. RPG's are all about risk/reward, there are tons of perks to help cover to cover moves, that no one seems to take advantage of yet, probably because we didn't have access to the talents that would enable that.

So yes it is a Clancy title, because the setting makes sense, because its a great looking game in the same vein as their others, the guns are all very realistic looking and combat feels great, But it is an RPG at heart, not a realism simulator.

DamYoDead
02-27-2016, 07:58 PM
That example I mentioned, here it is from another thread:


Scenario, you are offset from a low wall or a car 5 to 10 meters. Your enemy is just beyond the obstacle. If you turn and run to the nearest cover behind you, you then risk getting shot in the back and not gaining fire superiority. However with your ability to assume a kneeling position and lessen your silhouette you are now utilizing cover without hugging it, such as the cover system does. The cover system isn't bad but the ability to at least assume lower posture while firing will bridge that gap and make you the slightest bit more accurate. This is a Tom Clancy title, and if realism is the goal then the solution is obvious. Not to overstate my claim but there are a lot of aspects of the player movement in cover based games especially in a Tom Clancy that if you were in a real-life situation you just wouldn't do.

when you mark a cover and hold i think x for ps4 . you sprint in a lower form to that cover and stick. i understand the crouch and kneel options though

Fisher_KingNY
02-27-2016, 11:35 PM
This beta was good but for those situations where an enemy can sneak up behind you or if you need to get through an area without using bullets you would need a melee attack or two no? For me at least it would help...hopefully something like that would be in the final product

Da777ath
02-29-2016, 12:29 AM
when you mark a cover and hold i think x for ps4 . you sprint in a lower form to that cover and stick. i understand the crouch and kneel options though


This beta was good but for those situations where an enemy can sneak up behind you or if you need to get through an area without using bullets you would need a melee attack or two no? For me at least it would help...hopefully something like that would be in the final product

I didn't know that about the movement to cover, thanks I will try it when the game comes out.

Also you can melee in the beta, it was clicking in the right thumbstick on ps4 when you aren't highlighting another player who isn't rogue or aiming, but the melee was a simple pistol whipping or buttstroking.

Anarchos404
03-02-2016, 05:26 PM
Regardless of the cover system being ever so automated.. I can already say after playing the open beta, I will miss the freedom to fwck up and jump/fall off tall ledges and buildings in general (freedom of movement) and to be able to crouch like every other shooter that has been released the last 10 years can.

The restricted movement and clunkiness of shooting over objects while not in cover/blindfire mode is a breaking point for me... but I am still looking forward to the game either way.

xFore
03-04-2016, 12:29 AM
So i think we are misjudging this a bit. First and foremost this game is and has always said to have been developed as an RPG, that means that realism is thrown out when it doesn't feel right or work well within the confines of the RPG system, yes bullets penetrate most walls, grenades would blow a hole in most of the buildings we are fighting in, and going into different positions for firing would give you a lot of new angles to attack from and Balance for......

Therefor crouch and prone are not in the game, if you leave cover to move, it is a risk you are taking to get into a better position if you are being over run and it has the risk of you being shot because you stand up. RPG's are all about risk/reward, there are tons of perks to help cover to cover moves, that no one seems to take advantage of yet, probably because we didn't have access to the talents that would enable that.

So yes it is a Clancy title, because the setting makes sense, because its a great looking game in the same vein as their others, the guns are all very realistic looking and combat feels great, But it is an RPG at heart, not a realism simulator.

^ This. The Division is not Arma 4.

Realism and RPG don't mix in current gaming culture.

Prone:
The mechanics in this game does not contain gamer's taboo. There is nothing new about the cover system and the lack of ability to go prone in video games, remember that little game called Gears of War? Also, I think I saw someone mention the cover system is similar to Mass Effect (2 and 3). That was even an rpg/shooter, just like The Division is tagged as, and it didn't have the ability to go prone. So there are all these AAA games without prone, it's not a new concept, and now I assume whoever thinks it's new needs to be caught up about other old news. Sorry to tell you but the Titanic sank in 1912.

Crouch:
The only thing they need to add to the cover system is the ability to crouch/stand while in cover. Whether or not you should be able to crouch out of cover is not clear. The ability to crouch out of cover means that there will be many new angles you can shoot from. It also means a lot more work for development to determine whether or not it is a game breaking mechanic that fits in with the rpg philosophy, and if adding such a mechanic would satisfy a cost-to-benefit analysis. I personally cannot decide whether such a mechanic should be implemented. Whatever the case is though it will not affect my pleasure I get from this great game.

Ozonezerosix
03-05-2016, 10:06 PM
Why does a Tom Clancy title, especially one that is clearly built off of the most recent Ghost Recon mechanics not have the ability for the player to crouch or at the least go Prone. These are very common and useful combat firing position and I think the addition to the player having this ability would make for better gameplay and, at least for me personally, will keep players longterm with this new IP. Also I'd like to add the idea of being able to slide into Prone after sprinting.

You should be going from cover to cover. If you highlight the cover you're moving too and hold the X button or space you do crouch and run. Its like that to force the cover mechanic. Prone will be useless with all the detrius in the way. I understand why you want it but you're not getting it.

Betrael
03-10-2016, 03:09 PM
What no one is mentioning is that if you had crouch and prone as movements in this game it would be very easy to glitch out of walls.
It was way too easy to push someone out of the map by using a shield, pretty sure with crouch and prone implemented it would be just that much easier.

nate4657
03-11-2016, 03:29 PM
It sounds like if you are wishing you had crouch and prone you are only fighting on easy mode. If you fight anything over your level they will take your head off if you're not in cover, and even in cover if they have a higher position. Plus there are tons of cover related perks you can use. The cover system in this game is super advanced and intuitive so maybe give it a try before you get too angry about it.

Turis8
03-11-2016, 07:40 PM
LevelCap kiddies who don't understand any other game than Battlefield? Go prone somewhere else and please return your copies of Division to your retailer. We don't need you. Thank you.

TG24915193
03-13-2016, 01:35 AM
Crouch and prone would be nice, a couple of missions i've been without cover so standing in the open is just ******ed.

As for Xbox and PS4 controls. Suck it up. Games have been dumbed down enough to accomodate you folks.

Yokopocket
03-13-2016, 07:53 AM
And having a flashlight would be a great addition !

DrExtrem
03-13-2016, 05:17 PM
No crouch, no prone.

The cover system already covers it. Adapt or be assimilated.

Gymbo3959
03-14-2016, 12:54 AM
I feel a bit exposed w/o crouch & prone, but the cover system works well enough.

Kirst2000a
03-14-2016, 07:13 AM
The system that is used in this game occasionally has very amusing (or not) consequences like jumping over a car into enemy fire when you are trying to hide behind the car.

CrazyCleatus
03-14-2016, 11:11 PM
The cover system already covers it.

No it doesn't. The cover system is far from perfect, as I've encountered a number of situations where it hindered me, situations where crouch or prone would've been better options.

It's become clear that the majority of players in this game want more freedom of movement, and Ubi should really start listening to these suggestions because there's no reason to not have core features that have been in shooters since forever.

Burningbear42o
03-15-2016, 04:48 AM
Play the game as intended, using the cover to cover system. Adjust to it or play something else. A game comes out that isn't another fps and the first thing you ask for is to make it play like one. I find it refreshing to not see people bouncing around. Another pleasant side effect of no crouching is no rage posts about getting teabagged.

Kimahn_Jahad
03-15-2016, 09:22 AM
crouching an proning would reates an extreme amount of exploiting, mostly vs npc's.

the cover offers you a relative security while still giving a chance to the npc to shoot at you. if you prone behind a barricade and shoot under the metal plate, you'll obliterate them without any chance of getting harmed nor any need to switch cover. same in pvp.

i played CoD 3, i never want to see proning in a game again.

plus, this is not a war simulation, if arma missed that kind of move, i would understand the complaint, but not the division.

DrExtrem
03-15-2016, 10:15 AM
No it doesn't. The cover system is far from perfect, as I've encountered a number of situations where it hindered me, situations where crouch or prone would've been better options.

It's become clear that the majority of players in this game want more freedom of movement, and Ubi should really start listening to these suggestions because there's no reason to not have core features that have been in shooters since forever.

Again adapt or die. If you found yourself in a situation where you really relied on glitchy tactics, your positioning was bad.

This is what you get and they will nit change the cire mechanic (and the entire game) to add a funktion, that is not even needed.

CrazyCleatus
03-16-2016, 01:17 AM
Again adapt or die. If you found yourself in a situation where you really relied on glitchy tactics, your positioning was bad.

This is what you get and they will nit change the cire mechanic (and the entire game) to add a funktion, that is not even needed.

Whatever dude.

Can't believe there's people out there who actually want less features in their video games (especially features that shooter games have had since forever). Boggles my mind.

Doctor-Atomic
03-16-2016, 06:21 AM
Crouching is needed, I want to be able to get down between cars and out of sight if I need to. I don't think we need to be able to go prone.

Binoculars, because people get nervous when you look at them through a rifle scope.

Flashlight.

Jumping.

GermanDevilDog
03-16-2016, 06:42 AM
Please Ubisoft: Add the Central Park as a huge Darkzone. Really dark with flickering street lights and ground fog and give us flashlights! The atmosphere would be insane!

DrExtrem
03-16-2016, 08:57 AM
Whatever dude.

Can't believe there's people out there who actually want less features in their video games (especially features that shooter games have had since forever). Boggles my mind.

First. Why add a feature, that it not needed, because there is already an equivalent in the game?

Second. Its not a shooter.

Third. Adding useless stuff takes away resources needed in other products.

Fourth. The entire game balancing is centred around the cover system. By adding a second system, the whole game would need to be remade.

DrExtrem
03-16-2016, 08:59 AM
Please Ubisoft: Add the Central Park as a huge Darkzone. Really dark with flickering street lights and ground fog and give us flashlights! The atmosphere would be insane!

Wrong thread?

The central park is a mass grave. What do you want to find there? Bodies, bulldozers and ??

DownBeachDynasty
03-16-2016, 01:16 PM
Crouching is needed, I want to be able to get down between cars and out of sight if I need to. I don't think we need to be able to go prone.

Binoculars, because people get nervous when you look at them through a rifle scope.

Flashlight.

Jumping.

The cover system is your friend. X to duck behind cars. O to jump over them. Flashlights, meh.

Rastello573
03-17-2016, 11:53 AM
I also has sort of getting tired of getting "glued" to cover...I am only level 9 but I still am tired of it...I used run and gun alot last night with great success. used cars and walls as cover..but not glue cover..i was strafing left and right behind them standing up...BUT..it would be good IF I could crouch..then i would NEVER have to use the normal cover anymore...

Roy_McDunno
03-17-2016, 12:07 PM
The cover system in this game is super advanced and intuitive so maybe give it a try before you get too angry about it.
Not so much, I beg to differ here ;)

I often keep sticking to the cover, though I wanted to quickly sprint/roll away, or sometimes he goes in cover around the corner!
So I go into cover *around the corner*, and then my character sits there for 0.5-1s and I can't move him, and I eat shi* and damage and have to stand up again, go around the corner and go into cover properly.

Yes, the cover-system is intuitive.
Yes, the cover-system is easy to understand and use.
But it's somewhat too fiddly-diddly-advanced and does things automatically on its own that I don't want to do.


IMHO, Crouch and Prone were always one of the "core"-elements of playing tactically and thoughtful in Tom Clancy-games.
And in the Division, crouch&prone could be very useful, because the "oh-so-good"-coversystem is not as allmighty and all-providing as some think it is (in my opinion).

There are things, that a Cover-system is good for, but a cover-system can't do everything. And for that purpose, we need crouch&prone.

Rastello573
03-17-2016, 12:11 PM
Not so much, I beg to differ here ;)

I often keep sticking to the cover, though I wanted to quickly sprint/roll away, or sometimes he goes in cover around the corner!
So I go into cover *around the corner*, and then my character sits there for 0.5-1s and I can't move him, and I eat shi* and damage and have to stand up again, go around the corner and go into cover properly.

Yes, the cover-system is intuitive.
Yes, the cover-system is easy to understand and use.
But it's somewhat too fiddly-diddly-advanced and does things automatically on its own that I don't want to do.

totally agree....ITs deadly to get "stuck" to cover in a hectic fight....is there anything we can disable to loose up on the stickiness?

DownBeachDynasty
03-17-2016, 01:46 PM
I've rarely gotten stuck to cover. However, the way the game works when crouching you would lose LOS on your target due to all the obstacles. It happens sometimes with the cover system when you're peaking out the side of cover instead of over. It would happen much more with crouch and prone and it's harder to distinguish given the 3rd person view.

I like this cover system a lot and don't see a need for crouch or prone. If I could still get hit behind cover, then sure, prone, but you don't so I don't really see a need.

Roy_McDunno
03-17-2016, 02:15 PM
I like this cover system a lot and don't see a need for crouch or prone. If I could still get hit behind cover, then sure, prone, but you don't so I don't really see a need.

https://picload.org/image/wpciraw/8934ee2606c7e9ea35c32a09595210.jpg
First of all, crouch&prone offer much more mobility and freedom of movement all along.

For example when you want to sneak past enemies (for whatever reason), but you can't stick to a cover and walk along that cover? Then you have to walk upright and straight in front of the enemies.

'If you could crouch, you could crouch-walk in a distance of 3-5m to the cover.

for example there's GRP, a relatively bad and pay2win-game.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/hZOQ-34o0s8/maxresdefault.jpg

In order to be on the point, but not seen, you go prone.

When you're going across the bridge, you crouch, so people can't see/shoot from the sides (in this map noone could shoot from the side, but if someone *could* shoot from the side, you would have to crouch across the bridge).



---

Now I don't know about you, but since I've writte the former post, I had 3 ocasions where I got stuck in a cover I did not want to get stuck xD
+ 1x where I went in cover and couldn't shoot, i.e. I *could* shoot, but no bullets were flying
+ 2x where I was in cover and could not shoot, no matter how often I pressed LMB. I had to get out of cover and in again to be able to shoot.
Going in and out of cover during a firefight on challenging-mode with 2x fatties coming towards you, while a Grenadier is spamming nades *might* not be such a bright thing to do xD

DownBeachDynasty
03-17-2016, 02:30 PM
Again, I haven't had that problem while I am not doubting it exists for people.

"First of all, crouch&prone offer much more mobility and freedom of movement all along.

For example when you want to sneak past enemies (for whatever reason), but you can't stick to a cover and walk along that cover? Then you have to walk upright and straight in front of the enemies.

'If you could crouch, you could crouch-walk in a distance of 3-5m to the cover.

for example there's GRP, a relatively bad and pay2win-game."

Crouch and prone do offer more mobility and freedom, but it's not needed for your following points. When you want to sneak past enemies, get against cover prior to their position then use the cover to cover mechanic to sneak by them. The reach of this is far and you can easily navigate around enemies. In the example pic you used there is no cover therefore prone and crouch is necessary. If this was the division you would have multiple places to "cover to cover" to get across unseen. I've run past NPC's by keeping a minimal distance without being seen. I believe the game accounts for LOS when dealing with NPC's and a certain distance.