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dartrav2
02-19-2016, 04:40 AM
Regarding balance changes:

Balancing:

[Improved] Reduced the resurrection rate of the "Eternal Servitude" ability to 25%.
[Improved] Gnoll Hunter's "Opportunity Attack" is only triggered once per combat round.
[Implemented] Diminishing returns - When the "Incapacitated" de-buff wears off, it applies the "Immune to Incapacitation" buff for two combat rounds.
[Implemented] A cap to the number of raised creatures for the Necromancy skill and the "Ghost Ride" ability.

I'm good with 1 and 3 but 2 REALLY nerfs the barbaians abilities. First you can't defend or hold your position without losing rage, now you can't get your melee bonus for attacking with everyone either. This weakens the class substantially and I don't see it as the most powerful class anyway, I think it's third.

I suggest you put it back but If you're going to stick with this two suggestions: 1. let me decide when I use the extra attack by asking me with each melee hit each round, as it is now, it's almost useless as it goes on my first melee attack and if I delay that attack until I want to use it, I lose bloodrage bonuses AND 2. make the gnoll hunter a full ranged unit not half ranged.

As it is now, the Barbarian forces are WAY less effective and I'd now say are the least effective in the game.

On #4, I have a question, can you expand what you've done here? How are they limited? by encounter, by hero, by time elapsed, by level, by map; what exactly are the limits you've placed and where did you place them?

Meyer_Dodi
02-19-2016, 03:27 PM
Gnoll Hunter's "Opportunity Attack"

This ability was too powerful. If you have about 200 gnoll in your army, you can split them simply to two stacks, and put them into the corners. You have also only 5 pieces of fury than split them on 5 different stacks, and use they ability. Cause they can strike and return , you have 5*2=10 plus shoots from gnolls. It is too powerful my friend....

dartrav2
02-19-2016, 10:16 PM
Gnoll Hunter's "Opportunity Attack"

This ability was too powerful. If you have about 200 gnoll in your army, you can split them simply to two stacks, and put them into the corners. You have also only 5 pieces of fury than split them on 5 different stacks, and use they ability. Cause they can strike and return , you have 5*2=10 plus shoots from gnolls. It is too powerful my friend....

I see your point, I never split them before but that is easily solvable by making only the first stack of gnolls in the time sequence get an extra attack, it shouldn't be all gnoll stacks. This solves that issue.

As for the attack and return, yes the harpies can do that but they are also frail with not many hit points, so that only works really for one round before the opposition troops are in position to attack you melee, so I don't see that as a big difference. You get one round of attack and return before the other guys destroy your frail harpies and elliminate this threat further.

Sounds like they should limit the extra attack to only the first stack of gnolls then. They way it is now, it's essentially useless.

The barbarian troops have to move or they lose attack bonus to further hinder them by giving a useless attack on the wyverns turn (whos it also a bit frail) is no real benefit in the grand scheme of a battle.

So how about, limit it to the first stack of gnolls only as well then. At least it still has utility then.

Wacky_Wizard
02-20-2016, 04:20 AM
Agreed the Gnoll Hunter’s “Opportunity Attack” was powerful. But in my small experience with the race, it’s the main thing they had going for them. I haven’t played them enough to explore deep into blood rage and other units. So there are probably more tactics that could be used.

For fun of randomness when we play, we always chose random kingdoms so there is some kind of variance to the map and tactics can change. Every time were stronghold it’s always “ah not them, oh well, at least we have Gnolls and Furry’s”. That may not be the case now, although it may now make us find the other tactics to give them a try or just becomes the “ah bugga not them”.

Our favorite tactic was as said split Gnolls so 1 fog of shroud or wolf didn’t stop both. And then split furry’s. Then put ice strike on gnolls and have furry’s*Gnolls attacks plus Furry*Gnoll ice stikes. But even though it was powerful it was not a quarantined victory. You just had to get someone near the gnolls or use spell to stop them. And of cause they were one of the first targets to get rid of as they are week.

If you want to weekend them I would not eliminate the ability so much but make it more dedicated. E.g. only works while Blood rage is active or dose less damage with each use in round or does % damage depending on state of blood rag/level of hero/mastery in blood rage etc. and although I would hate to see it go, possibly remove activation of magics on “Opportunity Attack”.

As Meyer_Dodi said if you only allow 1 return (or restrict to number of times in any way) then it should to be a choice of when to use (although you don’t have that choice on normal retaliation either). So if you have a unit that still can do “Opportunity Attack” then each unit should get a choice like other units get some options, whether to use it this time or not. Problem then comes from having multiple stacks, maybe when you right click on Gnolls for info you have option in them to turn on/off their “Opportunity Attack”. It just gets messier and messier this way.

But I would not do as Meyer_Dodi said and limit it to just one stack as there is no difference from having 1 stack of 100 “Opportunity Attack” and 2 groups of 50 “Opportunity Attack”. Multi stack only affects being able to stop them or having two ice strikes active and what do you do when it’s the stack that only has 5 left that returns instead of the undamaged 50 one (although instead of first stack it could be biggest stack). And once again can get messy.

As said I would have gone more for diminished effect of the “Opportunity Attack” and not limiting number of use much easier to aply and can link with class/leader abilities.

dartrav2
02-20-2016, 04:58 AM
I see wacky wizard agrees with me, nerfing the gnoll attack like this takes away the only thing the barbarian troops have going for them and makes them easily the least effect troops in the game.

UBI, please consider some of these suggestions to putting the gnolls back in play and giving the barbarians some hope.


I still think the best one and (wizard it's not messy) is leave the extra attack in play but only the first gnoll stack to go each round.

This solves all the issues and isn't unbalanced. UBI, you've just gone too far here and removed the only benefit the barbarian troops had.

Wacky_Wizard
02-20-2016, 07:20 AM
Of cause the method of just apply on only first stack is not messy….”NOW”. it’s not messy the way they did it either…”NOW”. But as with most things there will be people that have different input of why/when/How to apply that one attack per round or it should not have been done etc. Like for example how they did it. They thought it was quick and simple, didn’t look like a bad solution to balance and along came someone to point out it may not be a good way. So although not messy yet, it may become messy the more it’s debated (or ignored and stays not messy).
What if with your limited one stack Attack you fog shroud or get put into melee that stack, can the other one go instead? If not why not? Why not make it the first stack able too? Then you have issue of trying to block both again etc. the more things people point out THEN it gets messy.

But it’s not just the number of Gnoll stacks that is the only issue anyway. As I said the number of stacks just makes it harder to block them all, and is a fair tactic. But in doing so you limit the number of other units you can have making them die easy if the opponent can get to them. Having 1 stack of 200 or 2 stacks of 100 does the same amount of damage and just goes from full advantage-no advantage once blocked to full advantage-half advantage if ones blocked no advantage if both blocked . If you only allow it on the first stack then people will just use one stack again and have extra stack of furry to give that extra 200 hit again, which is what patch 1.7 tried to prevent.
I haven’t tried the patch yet as its too big for me to down load. I’m lucky though and my eldest daughter is going to Brisbane today looking for stuff for her wedding, so I asked her to visit her sister and bring me back the game patched. But I assume
[Improved] Gnoll Hunter's "Opportunity Attack" is only triggered once per combat round. means once per round per stack. And I don’t know if “Improved” is the right word for making weaker word is more “balanced”.

This is why I said
I would have gone more for diminished effect of the “Opportunity Attack” and not limiting number of use much easier to aply
Then you can balance the damage done single/multi stack lots of furry stacks or not, without limiting the options to the players set up (do I split gnolls for more damage or keep them together and bring in bigger units to take damage). Limiting options in a strategy game is always the worst method of doing something. Although the actual option is still there, If there is no big advantage of splitting my gnolls why risk having less damage soaking units being able to join the combat and therefore limiting options by proxy instead of allowing the adding of tactics even before the actual battle.

I personally like the way the gnolls were in 1.6 but can see why people think their too strong, but feel 1.7 has now made them too week. I would still like to see the solution tied to the hero somehow. Even if it’s as it is and have it one attack per combat round but make it 1 attack per blood rage mastery per round so it can improve again as the hero gets bigger but not big for all heroes. Or tied to the damage e.g. “Opportunity Attack” does 5% + 5% damage per blood rage mastery with each attack but has unlimited amount.