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View Full Version : Attn Luthier: I can advise on B29 Matters.



Droopsnoot
05-09-2004, 10:11 PM
Oleg,Luthier, ( or whoever heads up the Pacific Fighters team.) I flew 22 missions as a bombardier in B29's based both in Tinian Mariannas and in India. I have flown in every position on the B29; was a Remote Control Gunnery Instructor,(B-29 Central Fire Control System) Celestial Navigator, Radar Navigator, Flight Engineer, co-pilot and Aircraft Commander. I have some pictures of West Field, Tinian from the air, and our organization's Official photo Album, which was published right after the war.
(which contains some target "strike" photos.)

I was Military Advisor for B17II, and helped in other areas although I am not a programmer.

Contact me here if I can help,to alert me. My Email address has not changed from the one I registered on the forums site when I joined, if you wish to contact me privately..

( This was first posted on Oleg's Forum, but Icefire over there advised me to contact Luthier over here.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[This message was edited by crazyivan1970 on Mon May 10 2004 at 03:42 PM.]

Droopsnoot
05-09-2004, 10:11 PM
Oleg,Luthier, ( or whoever heads up the Pacific Fighters team.) I flew 22 missions as a bombardier in B29's based both in Tinian Mariannas and in India. I have flown in every position on the B29; was a Remote Control Gunnery Instructor,(B-29 Central Fire Control System) Celestial Navigator, Radar Navigator, Flight Engineer, co-pilot and Aircraft Commander. I have some pictures of West Field, Tinian from the air, and our organization's Official photo Album, which was published right after the war.
(which contains some target "strike" photos.)

I was Military Advisor for B17II, and helped in other areas although I am not a programmer.

Contact me here if I can help,to alert me. My Email address has not changed from the one I registered on the forums site when I joined, if you wish to contact me privately..

( This was first posted on Oleg's Forum, but Icefire over there advised me to contact Luthier over here.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

[This message was edited by crazyivan1970 on Mon May 10 2004 at 03:42 PM.]

TAGERT.
05-09-2004, 10:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Droopsnoot:
Oleg,Luthier, ( or whoever heads up the Pacific Fighters team.) I flew 22 missions as a bombardier in B29's based both in Tinian Mariannas and in India. I have flown in every position on the B29; was a Remote Control Gunnery Instructor,(B-29 Central Fire Control System) Celestial Navigator, Radar Navigator, Flight Engineer, co-pilot and Aircraft Commander. I have some pictures of West Field, Tinian from the air, and our organization's Official photo Album, which was published right after the war.
(which contains some target "strike" photos.)

I was Military Advisor for B17II, and helped in other areas although I am not a programmer.

Contact me here if I can help,to alert me. My Email address has not changed from the one I registered on the forums site when I joined, if you wish to contact me privately..

( This was first posted on Oleg's Forum, but Icefire over there advised me to contact Luthier over here.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Hey... were you out at March AFB about 3 weeks ago? I met a gentalman out there next to the B29 with his son and wife... We talked for some time about the B29... Just wondering if that was you.. I know it is a fat chance.. but had to ask! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

Droopsnoot
05-09-2004, 11:06 PM
No, Tagert, that wasn't me, but there are still aFEW of us old ducks around.

I used to live in Riverside, where in CA are you? (I'm in San Diego, Now)

RAC_Pips
05-09-2004, 11:29 PM
Great to see you here DroopSnoot. It's very rare for us to have a perosn from WWII grace these sites.

I sure hope that Luthier takes up your offer. He would be mad to pass up the opportunity. Mind you, you may not hear from him until after E3. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

huggy87
05-10-2004, 12:47 AM
Hi Droopsnoot,
I am sure you will be an invaluable resource. I am fortunate enough to have an actual B-29 operator's manual. It belonged to my great-grandfather's brother who was a flight engineer. He didn't make it through the war. I guess they were returning home from a raid pretty shot up and crashed into a cliff as they were trying to land. Looking through the book, I am amazed by the complexity and brilliance of the plane, even by today's standards.

Cheers,
Huggy

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 01:35 AM
Was he stationed on Guam or Saipan? It could have been either, depending on the approach. Both of those islands had high cliffs on one end of their runway. Taking off over the cliffs was great, but landing toward them could be hazardous if there were downdrafts.

Do you have a scanner? The PF team may very well need asome of the material from your manual.

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 01:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAC_Pips:
Great to see you here DroopSnoot. It's very rare for us to have a perosn from WWII grace these sites.

I sure hope that Luthier takes up your offer. He would be mad to pass up the opportunity. Mind you, you may not hear from him until after E3. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glad you reminded me about E3...I might have figured that they weren't interested.Thanks Much!

PlaneEater
05-10-2004, 01:47 AM
Nice to have someone amongst us who actually knows firsthand what he's talking about. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Glad to have you with us, Droop. Maybe you can helps us set the programming crew straight about some misconceptions here and there. I'm sure Oleg will listen to "I flew one" a lot more than he'll listen to "I read somewhere it worked like this". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"To put it another way, a one second burst of fire from a single .50 cal M2 rigidly mounted aircraft gun shooting at you from 100 yards will put about 10 bullets through the computer screen you are looking at right now."
--Blutarski

There aren't many of them left. They flew these things. They stepped off the earth, into the sky, in a pair of metal wings and a howling, living, fire-breathing beast of war, and they fought.

And they died.

And the least we can do is remember they were heroes.

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 02:01 AM
posted 10-05-04 00:47
Nice to have someone amongst us who actually knows firsthand what he's talking about.

"Glad to have you with us, Droop. Maybe you can helps us set the programming crew straight about some misconceptions here and there. I'm sure Oleg will listen to 'I flew one' a lot more than he'll listen to "I read somewhere it worked like this".

Thanks Planeeater, To survive, we had to know our jobs pretty well, so those of us still around still remember how things were and worked.

Eddie_W
05-10-2004, 02:42 AM
Good to see you here Joe! Your discussions of bombing technique at Bombs-Away.net were always fascinating.

Spectre-63
05-10-2004, 02:43 AM
Droopsnoot -

I'm a little surprised that it hasn't happened so far but I want to take the opportunity to say THANK YOU for your service and sacrifice. We truly wouldn't be here today if it had not been for the actions of yourself and young men like you. S!

Also, I'd like to warn you to brace yourself - now that you've identified yourself as "one who's been there" you're likely to be inundated by some of my fellow forum members pestering you for answers to various and assorted questions about your past. I'll admit, I'm having a helluva time avoiding the temptation myself. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nice to have you with us sir. God bless you and your fellow fliers. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~mjmcmahon672/images/Sig_Small.gif

necrobaron
05-10-2004, 03:04 AM
Spectre said it best. I know you probably hear it all the time, but we really do mean thank-you for your sacrifice and service. This forum is lucky to have someone of your caliber. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Snyde-Dastardly
05-10-2004, 06:22 AM
Welcome Droopsnoot!
As Spectre the rest of the boys are sayin,thanks and Id love to shake your hand. Great to have ya aboard
S!
CARPE DIEM
Snyde

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/GRDN.bmp

Gunner_361st
05-10-2004, 07:44 AM
It is not every day we get the genuine article in here. ~S~ and welcome aboard. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Major Gunner of the 361st vFG

http://home.comcast.net/~smconlon/wsb/media/245357/site1087.jpg

GT182
05-10-2004, 08:09 AM
Glad to see you over here Droopsnoot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif All I can say is , "It's about time" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And not to make you mad at me but... Droopsnoot is one of our most distinguished members over at bomb-away.net. He is the one responsible for getting the Norden working for B17 Flying Fortress "The Mighty 8th".

BTW, he goes by A.C. over there and has loads of info on the Norden and why it's programed the way it is. If it's possible, his "Norden" would be great in PF, BoB and FB for the B17s, B24s, B25s, B29s and any US bomber that used it in WWII and is put into a sim/game. It takes some work to learn to operate but once you can you won't like any other so called "bombsite". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hats off to ya Droopsnoot/A.C. Salute!

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net (http://www.bombs-away.net)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 09:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Eddie_W:
Good to see you here Joe! Your discussions of bombing technique at Bombs-Away.net were always fascinating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Eddie!

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 10:07 AM
To Necrobaron,Spectre 63 Snyde-Dastardly, et al....

Rather than tell boastful
War stories I would prefer to help the developers of PF to SHOW you guys what it was like to fight the War in the Pacific.

Please be aware though that I only saw the Very Heavy Bombardment part, and know little more than you do about Navy tactics or Island Hopping battles.

Let me also say, that we were not heroes, we were just guys like you.

Guys who beieved in what we were doing, and reallized that someone had to do it... and that we were "stuck" with the job.

Few , if any of us cared much for the situation we found oursaelves in,and earning medals or additional rank was the furthest thing from our minds.

heywooood
05-10-2004, 11:07 AM
Droopsnoot -

Always nice to find another San Diegan on this board..

Sounds like you sat in almost every seat on the B29..I too would like to say thank-you for your service to your country.

You would I'm sure, be considered a valuable resource to the developers with all that experience...

A quick question if I may,.. what was the average duration of a strike mission from Tinian
for instance - or the longest flight you made overall?.. I only ask because it was brought up in an earlier thread here concerning the possibility of having 'flyable' B29's.

Thanks again Droopsnoot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GT182:
Glad to see you over here Droopsnoot. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif All I can say is , "It's about time" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

And not to make you mad at me but... Droopsnoot is one of our most distinguished members over at bomb-away.net. He is the one responsible for getting the Norden working for B17 Flying Fortress "The Mighty 8th".

BTW, he goes by A.C. over there and has loads of info on the Norden and why it's programed the way it is. If it's possible, his "Norden" would be great in PF, BoB and FB for the B17s, B24s, B25s, B29s and any US bomber that used it in WWII and is put into a sim/game. It takes some work to learn to operate but once you can you won't like any other so called "bombsite". http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Hats off to ya Droopsnoot/A.C. Salute!

"GT182" / "vonSpinmeister"
http://www.bombs-away.net
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Those are kind words GT, Thanks!

About the Bombsight...Any tachometric Bombsight programmed after receiving advice from me will be programmed to simulate the bombsight(s) properly, but will not be programmed by me, for I am not a programmer.

How each programmer writes his program to carry out the solution to the bombing problem will be his efforts, not mine, and most likely will differ from the way any other programmer would do it. For examople, I have no idea how the Norden in the B17II program was coded, only what physical inputs were required to solve the bombing problem, which actually deals only with physical laws in the common domain, thus are not trade secrets.

As a hobbyist I will be pleased to beta test and critique the efforts of programmers to simulate a bombsight however. My knowledge of the procedures used by visual bombardiers is also in the common domain.

For those of you who might wonder why GT winked when he used the term "Bombsite", it is because one of my greatest annoyances are tyros who refer to a BombSIGHT as a bombSITE.

A SITE is a location ... A SIGHT is something you "sight" through to aim.

That is the first thing bombardiers need to learn. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Snuffy_Hadden
05-10-2004, 11:56 AM
Welcome Major! :salute:

As I said before, WOOT!! thanks for steppin in and offering your wisdom to the betterment of this, and all other sims.

As GT said and I echo, because of your technical prowress, we have a "workable" Norden Bombsight in the B-17 from Hasbro/Wayward/etc. I can hardly wait to see the results of your advice and input regarding the Norden for use in the U.S. heavys that will be reproduced here for the Pacific and hopefully Bob and all future sims produced by 1c/Maddox Games/Ubisoft/Etc.

Welcome aboard. :salute:

huggy87
05-10-2004, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Droopsnoot:
Was he stationed on Guam or Saipan? It could have been either, depending on the approach. Both of those islands had high cliffs on one end of their runway. Taking off over the cliffs was great, but landing toward them could be hazardous if there were downdrafts.

Do you have a scanner? The PF team may very well need asome of the material from your manual.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not sure which island he died on. My great-grandfather died when I was still young and not very interested in WW2. I could ask my great-grandmother, but she is a little demented with age and probably wouldn't even know where the pacific is.

As for scanning pages, I would be more than happy to.

KAMI_1
05-10-2004, 12:59 PM
@ Droopsnoot

can u contact me @


webmaster@174th-shap.de

it´s really important http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-----------------------------
=BUMP=

IV_JG51_Razor
05-10-2004, 01:59 PM
Hey, don't forget that the Norden isn't just for the heavies. The PBY and the TBF had Nordens in them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot. Welcome aboard Droopsnoot! I'll add my thanks for your service too. My dad was a Naval Aviator back during "the big hate". He flew TBFs, and if he were alive today, I'm sure he'd love to contribute to this great sim.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

IronIan
05-10-2004, 02:59 PM
B-17 The Mighty Eighth was an excellent sim. My personal favourite before IL2 changed the world. The Norden Bombsight in it was awesome and worked really well. I am sure that if the Pacific Fighters version comes from the same source it will be amazingly realistic.

It may sound odd in a gaming forum context but personally one of the biggest reasons I fly WW1 & WW2 flight sims and fight in infantry combat simulators is to honour the memory of all those that fought and died to preserve the free world that we are now able to game in internationally, without political or national boundaries.

I was born a year after WW2 ended but anyone who flew or fought through those dark years has my unquestioning respect. My own father fought the Japanese in Burma.

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."

tenmmike
05-10-2004, 03:21 PM
Droopsnoot i would like to welcome you here and to thank you for your service to our country..SALUTE!!..i am certain luthier will want to talk with you as well, but like was said E3.......once again welcome and hope you enjoy your visit here.......mike

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif 84-91

Ronbo1931
05-10-2004, 04:26 PM
Droopsnoot aka A.C. Good to see your offer. Hope the design team takes you up on it. It would be a big help to the Sim development effort.
Ronbo

crazyivan1970
05-10-2004, 04:40 PM
Welcome aboard Sir! I`ll make it sticky until Luthier sees it.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Droopsnoot -

Always nice to find another San Diegan on this board..

Sounds like you sat in almost every seat on the B29..I too would like to say thank-you for your service to your country.

You would I'm sure, be considered a valuable resource to the developers with all that experience...

A quick question if I may,.. what was the average duration of a strike mission from Tinian
for instance - or the longest flight you made overall?.. I only ask because it was brought up in an earlier thread here concerning the possibility of having 'flyable' B29's.

Thanks again Droopsnoot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It just occurred to me that I never flew in the Tail Gunner's position, though I flew several times as cfc gunner and as a side gunner (Scanner)

I never flew in the B29 as a radio man either, though I did have radio man duties when I first flew in the B47. Fortunately I didn't have to do CW for I could only take a shaky 12 words per minute.

I didn't fly the longest mission of the war, but I flew several missions that approached 20 hours in length. It took at least seven hours each way from Tinian to the Home islands of Japan, plus the time it took to reach each target. One long mission I made was a low level night fire raid on Aomori, far up on the northern tip of Honshu, but I don't recall how many hours it took. Singapore was a long way from India too!

The main reason we moved from India to the Mariannas was because our missions were too long out of India, and we had to stage out of China.

Do you know of many other San Diegans who are simmers?

Capt._Tenneal
05-10-2004, 05:49 PM
Let me add my thanks for your service to the country, Droopsnoot. It's rare we get folks from what Brokaw calls "the greatest generation" in our midst. You must have been a teenager when you enlisted. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and I hope you are successful in contacting Luthier about adding your input to PF. Especially on the Superfort, one of the planes I'm waiting to see.

TAGERT.
05-10-2004, 08:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Droopsnoot:
No, Tagert, that wasn't me, but there are still aFEW of us old ducks around.

I used to live in Riverside, where in CA are you? (I'm in San Diego, Now)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I live in NORCO (ie North CORONA).

San Diego huh? Say, the CHINO Air musiem is having it's anual AIR SHOW this month on the 15-16th

http://www.planesoffame.com/airshow04.html

A bunch of us from here are going to meet up... Gibb is one of them (the 3D model guy).

Anyway, let me know if you can make it.. and Ill get you the details

PS Thanks for all you did while in service! SALUTE!

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 10:05 PM
Because of rather poor health I can never, with any surety predict in advance when I will feel up to doing any specific social engagement or meeting any firm deadline. That's why I didn't go to March Field for their show.

So, regretfully I can't plan on getting there, though Chino, as you know,puts on one of the best shows and their museum is great!

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 10:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt._Tenneal:
Let me add my thanks for your service to the country, Droopsnoot. It's rare we get folks from what Brokaw calls "the greatest generation" in our midst. You must have been a teenager when you enlisted. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, and I hope you are successful in contacting Luthier about adding your input to PF. Especially on the Superfort, one of the planes I'm waiting to see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but you are close...I was 20 and enlisted soon after Pearl Harbor.

The Superfort was an easy airplane to fly, and carried a huge bomb load (40 five hundred pound bombs.)

No simulation of the air war in the Pacific is complete without it, for it played a major role in defeating the Japanese before the A-bombs gave the Japanese an excuse to quit.

Droopsnoot
05-10-2004, 10:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Welcome aboard Sir! I`ll make it sticky until Luthier sees it.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks crazyivan.

I also was trained in the B17 and B25 and have pilot time in the C47,and B50, as well as the B47,T-33 and F80

WWMaxGunz
05-10-2004, 10:55 PM
Hi Joe!

I thought bombsite was just a longer way to spell target.

Do ya think you can get Luthier to only have Nordens in the lead and alternate planes? And how many of you guys were actually trained on the Nordens?


Neal

TAGERT.
05-10-2004, 11:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Droopsnoot:
Because of rather poor health I can never, with any surety predict in advance when I will feel up to doing any specific social engagement or meeting any firm deadline. That's why I didn't go to March Field for their show.

So, regretfully I can't plan on getting there, though Chino, as you know,puts on one of the best shows and their museum is great!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Well... if you need a ride... it doesnt start untill 11:00 or so.. I could run down early and pick you up and drive you up and back... if it is the drive that is a factor... let me know! I got a new truck and need to put some miles on it anyways! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.geocities.com/grantsenn/kickme.jpg
TAGERT

heywooood
05-10-2004, 11:46 PM
I didn't fly the longest mission of the war, but I flew several missions that approached 20 hours in length. It took at least seven hours

Do you know of many other San Diegans who are simmers?[/QUOTE] Droopsnoot

______________________________________________

Droopsnoot - there are a few of us here in San Diego.. Gates123 and Chris455 both post on these boards and live in S.D.
There are others too .

Thanks for replying to my question. I know that you must fromm time to time be overwhelmed by us warbird enthusiasts and wannabe aviation historians..

wow - 20 hrs in the air on a mission.. tense most of the time?.. anxious to be on the way, and then anxious to be headed back to base?.

If you ever want to go to the Air and Space museum here in town - send me a PT.. I go there with another ex-pilot from the AVG.. a C46 driver.. a good guy to talk flying with, he was rated in about 10 other types also http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

[This message was edited by heywooood on Mon May 10 2004 at 10:58 PM.]

Spectre-63
05-11-2004, 01:07 AM
heywooood -

I envy you living as closely to this man as you do - mostly for the opportunity it affords you to shake his hand. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Droopsnoot -

forgive me, but I just can't hold off any longer, I gotta ask: what's your experience with the accuracy of bomber defensive fire? What was "average" for a number of kills for a crew per mission? I also don't understand how the '29's remote gun positions functioned. Could you provide some insight? How easy was targeting from a remote gunstation?

Thx!

http://home.comcast.net/~mjmcmahon672/images/Sig_Small.gif

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 03:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KAMI_1:
@ Droopsnoot

can u contact me @


webmaster@174th-shap.de

it´s really important http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

-----------------------------
=BUMP=<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sent you two scanned images. If they are not good enough I will check at the San Diego Aerospace museum. As a member I can use their library for research.

Blackdog5555
05-11-2004, 03:22 AM
My father was stationed in San Diego during the war.(Coronado) Navy of course. He was an aviation fire control ordinanceman. he had to learn to repair the Norden. I bought the Mighty Eigth just because of the Norden Bombsight. Congrats on contributing to the best bombing sim ever made. I also lived in San Diego until 1994. MB PB and Clairemont. My dads friends had stories of the pacific from Tarawa to Iwa Jima. Its an honor to hear your stories.You guys are all heroes to me.

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 04:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spectre-63:

Droopsnoot -

forgive me, but I just can't hold off any longer, I gotta ask: what's your experience with the accuracy of bomber defensive fire? What was "average" for a number of kills for a crew per mission? I also don't understand how the '29's remote gun positions functioned. Could you provide some insight? How easy was targeting from a remote gunstation?

Thx!

It was extremely accurate when operated correctly for it was a computing sighting system.

My plane never shot down any fighters but we scared them away from coming in on us by firing a burst at the extreme range as they tilted their wings to begin their attack.

It changed their mind every time! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Targeting using a remote gun station was easy for the parallaxs between the sighting statuion and the turret was computed in at the same time lead, bulklet drop etc was computed . Input of data by the gunner was easy. After setting in the wingspread for the fighter, all the gunner had to do was keep the center dot of his reticle on the fighter and spin his retical control knob to keep the wingspread framed within the reticle circle and the computing system did the rest.

How the turret/sighting stations were synchronised is quite lengthy but the quick answer is that it was done by feeding the computer data into the Turret drive system by means of repeating selsyn circuits.

Turret allocation between the gunners since there were more gunners than there were turrets is another lengthy lecture in itsrelf, that can be summed up by saying it was done by training, practice, and team work sorta like a football team with the Bombardier as quarterback, unless he was busy bombing, in which case it was the CFC gunner(Top Gunner)with the co-pilot calling the plays from the sidelines if he spotted a threat before the gunmner called it in. (There was absolutely NO unnecessary chit chat on interphone at any time in a B29 while in the comnbat area.)
'
For the lead programmer's information:.... , I can write up a detailed description of how the CFC system worked, for purposes of simulating it. I don't believe you will have much of a problem programming in a workable Remote Control Gunney System.

http://home.comcast.net/~mjmcmahon672/images/Sig_Small.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 04:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Blackdog5555:
My father was stationed in San Diego during the war.(Coronado) Navy of course. He was an aviation fire control ordinanceman. he had to learn to repair the Norden. I bought the Mighty Eigth just because of the Norden Bombsight. Congrats on contributing to the best bombing sim ever made. I also lived in San Diego until 1994. MB PB and Clairemont. My dads friends had stories of the pacific from Tarawa to Iwa Jima. Its an honor to hear your stories.You guys are all heroes to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Blackdog, B17II was a true aerial combat simulator designed to show what it was like to fly B17,s in combsat. It was not jusut a first person shooter. Glad you liked it!

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 05:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IV_JG51_Razor:
Hey, don't forget that the Norden isn't just for the heavies. The PBY and the TBF had Nordens in them. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

EDIT: Oh, I almost forgot. Welcome aboard Droopsnoot! I'll add my thanks for your service too. My dad was a Naval Aviator back during "the big hate". He flew TBFs, and if he were alive today, I'm sure he'd love to contribute to this great sim.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
http://www.jg51.net

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Indeed they did! In fact originally the Navy had priority for use of the Norden. The USAAF was forced to use Sperrys, which were a little more awkward to use. Also, the Sperry couldn't be mass produced in the numbers needed while the Norden could.

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 05:59 AM
@ Tagert.

No way, Jose'. If I feel up to it I'll drive up to your place in Norco, cause driving helps my bad back.

Tell me how to find your place in Norco and when you intend to depart for Chino, and anything else I need to know about it and if I get there before you depart you can give me a ride in that new truck to the show.

But go without me if I'm not at your place by 10:00.(or do you need to leave for the show before then?)

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
Hi Joe!

I thought bombsite was just a longer way to spell target.

Do ya think you can get Luthier to only have Nordens in the lead and alternate planes? And how many of you guys were actually trained on the Nordens?


Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You could be right about that there Bombsite thing! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

In '29's we were all bombardiiers for many times, on the night raids, we didn't go in in formation but as single shipsin a bomber stream.... Told ya' the tactics and SOP's were different thamn in Europe.

Got some ides abnout using Droopsnoots with only one bombardier and the rest of the formation standard Lightnings with the pilots acting as their own toggleer. Also, Droopsnoots as pathfinders for the night fire raids for the '29's.

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tenmmike:
Droopsnoot i would like to welcome you here and to thank you for your service to our country..SALUTE!!..i am certain luthier will want to talk with you as well, but like was said E3.......once again welcome and hope you enjoy your visit here.......mike

http://www.2-60inf.com/2-60_crest.gif 84-91<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks, Tenmike Hope I can help.

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 06:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IronIan:
B-17 The Mighty Eighth was an excellent sim. My personal favourite before IL2 changed the world. The Norden Bombsight in it was awesome and worked really well. I am sure that if the Pacific Fighters version comes from the same source it will be amazingly realistic.

It may sound odd in a gaming forum context but personally one of the biggest reasons I fly WW1 & WW2 flight sims and fight in infantry combat simulators is to honour the memory of all those that fought and died to preserve the free world that we are now able to game in internationally, without political or national boundaries.

I was born a year after WW2 ended but anyone who flew or fought through those dark years has my unquestioning respect. My own father fought the Japanese in Burma.

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyone who fought in Burma has MY respect! That was really rough country!

IronIan
05-11-2004, 08:05 AM
Droopsnoot,
My father is almost an exact contemporary of yours being born in 1920 and being a fit fellow, still alive and well and living in Bournemouth on the south coast of England. He was with The Royal Artillery's 191 AA regiment in Burma using bofors guns against Japanese aircraft.

IMHO I agree with another poster's comment that B-17 The Mighty Eighth was the best bomber simulator ever so far. It also remains one of the most "immersive" flight simulators ever. Especially with surround sound maxed out and a decent FF stick.

Before IL2 arrived I loved flying B-17 II so much that I once made the mistake of renaming all the crew with the names of my best friends and then flew a real-time mission to Keil. "We" got badly shot up by the flak, coming limping home at low altitude with two engines out, one smoking, two men dead, two badly wounded and the remaining crew fighting off German fighters three times. Sadly we didn't quite make it across the channel and were too low to bail out, so we ditched in the drink within sight of the coast but I lost the whole crew. I was strangely upset for days and felt personally responsible. I even dreamed about it.

That virtual experience left me with an overwhelming respect for the B-17 crews who flew a great many repeat sorties as chronicled by Joseph Heller in Catch 22. No wonder many of them cracked up, the stress must have been overwhelming, especially for young men with everything to live for. (Hence my online motto at the foot of my posts.)

I was too young for the Korean war and too old for the Falklands war and mercifully have never had to experience war at first hand. My wife and I however have a profound respect for all those who fought and still fight "so that we may all sleep easy in our beds".

I spent an 18 year career in the North Sea working as a deep saturation diver on mixed gas (over 500 days "in the tank") and lost a few friends and colleagues over those years. I have not been in combat against a human enemy but having survived one of man's most implacable natural enemies, the ocean depths, I have total respect for all warriors in the air and on sea and land. So a personal thank you from a Brit for your WW2 service on behalf of us all.

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."

heywooood
05-11-2004, 11:27 AM
Droopsnoot -

Your post about the B29 turret guns and the teamwork involved is riveting.. I think I might have to get a copy of the B17 sim now!.. And I sincerely hope your help will be sought and utilized by 1c for their US bombers going forward!.. I hope the crew teamwork can be included with multiple crew positions in the B29 if it is made flyable..

I guess since you are a member at the S.D. Air and Space museum I'll probably run into you there at some point.. I'll wear my heywooood hat. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif..

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 12:12 PM
EIGHTEEN years a deep sea Diver? You've certainly faced stress as much as any man! ... with time to think about it in between!... and make yourself do it again.

No wonder you recogtnised the point that the developers of B17 II were trying to get across, and which was made in so humourous a fashion in Catch 22....and in the lyrics of the Bar Song ..."I wanted Wings, 'til I got the G.D. Things...And now I don't want them anymore!

It does something to and for a man...Ever after that you can look any man in the eye,

...Including yourself when you shave every morning...for you know who you are.

Hello IronIan!

IronIan
05-11-2004, 02:38 PM
Given your own experiences I am embarrassed to have my own meagre adventures referred to in the same breath but thanks anyway, your words mean a lot to me. There are plenty of technical books about commercial diving, but there isn't one so far by anyone else "from the inside frontline perspective" so I am in the very slow process of writing an autobiography focussing largely on my adventures as a deep saturation diver. I'll be sure and mail you a copy if I ever get it published.

I went to Zeno's Video Drive-In and watched the training film for the B29 today. What an incredible airplane, that thing is VAST! I see what you mean about the guns too.

I doubt that Oleg will ever be able to approach the internal realism and crew interaction inside a B17 that B-17 II achieved, but we can hope. If anyone who reads this forum hasn't flown that sim I highly recommend it. Just don't rename the crew after your friends or family or you'll regret it.

The incredible thing about that sim is how intensely it recreates the combat stress of being in a B17 while it is being fired at by flak and fighters a long long way from home, with the prospect of nursing it back all the way if the damage is too great. I seldom ever got focussed enough in action to be the bombadier although that Norden bombsight was modelled really well.

Man that must have been a real systems overload experience on every level. I also think that sim had a really exceptionally inutitive control system that could handle a huge number of functions without overloading the memory. Flying with the book open on my lap was often required however as there were so many controls.

I used a Saitek P1800 USB control pad add-on with the colour control sheet that came with the game (or the pad) to run a few dozen of the extra controls. I also had a 2/3 life size colour fold out picture of the whole B-17 cockpit panel from a Pilot's Veteran Aircraft magazine on the wall over my PC as an "aide memoire"! from cross checking that aginst the onscreen cockpit I can tell you that it was accurate down to the last rivet and almost everything worked too. A real work of art.

Even since IL2 and IL2FB AEP I still fly it occaisionally. Check it out guys, you won't be sorry. You can fly the axis and allied fighters in it too and switch been cockpits during live action, then back to your host B-17 whenever you feel like it. Modern sims have higher resolution graphics but the game play was exceptional.

Live long and prosper Droopsnoot.

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."

[This message was edited by IronIan on Tue May 11 2004 at 01:48 PM.]

[This message was edited by IronIan on Tue May 11 2004 at 01:50 PM.]

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 04:54 PM
Quote IronIan"
"Given your own experiences I am embarrassed to have my own meagre adventures referred to in the same breath but thanks anyway, your words mean a lot to me. There are plenty of technical books about commercial diving, but there isn't one so far by anyone else "from the inside frontline perspective" so I am in the very slow process of writing an autobiography focussing largely on my adventures as a deep saturation diver. I'll be sure and mail you a copy if I ever get it published."

I will certainly treasure that! Particularly if you autograpgh it.

If the British version of B17II has it, there is a loading sequence for you to watch while the disk is first loading the game onto your hard drive.

It shows you pictures pasted in a photo album with remarks written under each picture.

It constitutes all the autobiography that I will ever write, for I was asked to "Tell it like it was" by the development team and they selected the pictures to illustrate it.

So I told it like it was....so those coming after us would know.

So tell it like it was IronIan, at crush depth beneath the cold North Sea.

IronIan
05-11-2004, 06:04 PM
I sure will Droopsnoot (70,000 words done so far provisional title "In The Fist of The Titan.".)

I de-installed B-17 II and re-installed it just to see that intro again, now that I know who wrote it. I am honoured to know you sir. Were those your own personal WW2 photographs or generic ones? Your short "autobiography" was very moving and I am sure spoke for many airmen from those terrible days.

The thought of 25 missions in a B17 is almost too horrifying to imagine. I too know that "grey" feeling before "facing it" and the smiles that cover everyone's faces after a safe return to the once more brightly coloured world of safety. For you it was coming back to earth, for us it was returning to the surface world.

My email is ianmunro@homechoice.co.uk and if you contact me directly I will send you some pictures from the collection of over 2000 that I made while in that industry if that would be of interest. I will say no more in this public context as you are the one who has done in reality what we have all been so stirred by merely emulating in the total safety of our homes.

I think Micropose originally intended a multiplay online option, but the lack of generally available bandwidth and the problems of such a demanding sim working in MMP at that time caused them to cancel the idea. If Oleg manages to create a multi-crew B-17 my virtual WW2 squadron will certainly be crewing one in Co-op as soon as it comes out! If only we could have animated avatars of all the crew members inside the fuselage the way they did in B-17 II! I believe they used real actors and "Motion capture" in a real B-17 fuselage to create those amazing animated figures.

B-17 The MIghty Eight can be downloaded from here. (http://www.bombs-away.net/)

My first though whenever I see the waist gunners in a B-17 is how COLD it must have been at high altitude. At least in the B29 you had the (relative) luxury of being pressurised and "inside". Question - did you guys ever wear flak jackets and helmets in the B-17s too, or was that a later development?

History is so odd. Now a generation later my best online virtual pilot friend is a former tank commander from the German Army who loves to fly bombers (He 111) and fighter bombers (Il2 & Me 110)in IL2, FB & AEP. Thank goodness, thanks to you guys, we can all be friends now and those nightmarish times when the whole world was nearly engulfed in chaos are gone. At least for now.

regards

IronIan (only in this Forum because Lionman was taken already.)
AKA
BBB_Lionman (Il2,IL2FB,IL2FAB+AEP)
RAC_Lionman (Red Baron 3D)

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."

[This message was edited by IronIan on Tue May 11 2004 at 05:22 PM.]

[This message was edited by IronIan on Tue May 11 2004 at 06:02 PM.]

Droopsnoot
05-11-2004, 08:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IronIan:
Were those your own personal WW2 photographs or generic ones? Your short "autobiography" was very moving and I am sure spoke for many airmen from those terrible days.

DROOP&gt;The pictures were chosen by the developers to illustrate the bio.

The thought of 25 missions in a B17 is almost too horrifying to imagine. I too know that "grey" feeling before "facing it" and the smiles that cover everyone's faces after a safe return to the once more brightly coloured world of safety. For you it was coming back to earth, for us it was returning to the surface world.

Droop&gt;The only way to get through it was to accept that you wouldn't. We were surprised and pleased when it ended.

My email is ianmunro@homechoice.co.uk and if you contact me directly I will send you some pictures from the collection of over 2000 that I made while in that industry if that would be of interest. merely emulating in the total safety of our homes.

Droop&gt; You'll be hearing from me.

I think Micropose originally intended a multiplay online option,

DROOP&gt; Yes, as so often happens , the publisher decided to market it "early".


If Oleg manages to create a multi-crew B-17 my virtual WW2 squadron will certainly be crewing one in Co-op as soon as it comes out! If only we could have animated avatars of all the crew members inside the fuselage the way they did in B-17 II! I believe they used real actors and "Motion capture" in a real B-17 fuselage to create those amazing animated figures.

Droop&gt;You are correct about the "Motion Capture"


My first though whenever I see the waist gunners in a B-17 is how COLD it must have been at high altitude. At least in the B29 you had the (relative) luxury of being pressurised and "inside". Question - did you guys ever wear flak jackets and helmets in the B-17s too, or was that a later development?

Droop&gt; Frostbite was common, B-29 was a shirtslweeve environment. Flak vests were required by regulations but it was pretty much left up to the men whether they were actally worn.Many just sat on them,(including me.) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

History is so odd. Now a generation later my best online virtual pilot friend is a former tank commander from the German Army who loves to fly bombers (He 111) and fighter bombers (Il2 & Me 110)in IL2, FB & AEP. Thank goodness, thanks to you guys, we can all be friends now and those nightmarish times when the whole world was nearly engulfed in chaos are gone. At least for now.

Droop&gt;Did you ever consider how long the war was for the Luftwaffe pilot? Particularly those on the eastern front

regards

IronIan (only in this Forum because Lionman was taken already.)
AKA
BBB_Lionman (Il2,IL2FB,IL2FAB+AEP)
RAC_Lionman (Red Baron 3D)

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."

[This message was edited by IronIan on Tue May 11 2004 at 05:22 PM.]

[This message was edited by IronIan on Tue May 11 2004 at 06:02 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

RAC_Pips
05-13-2004, 03:17 AM
Well it's plain from all the warm posts here Droop that you, and your generation, are still held in very high regard. And rightly so.

Not sure if you have much contact with other guys who were also in WWII. So you may be interested in this link.

http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/portal.htm

It's a crowd of around 160 or so ex-WWII aircrew who get together and basically have a good time. I came across it via the sim forum 'European Air War' at http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/ultimatebb.php?ubb=forum;f=41

We model/skin many of thwe actual aircraft that these great guys flew in. Maybe we can do one of your B-29. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Droopsnoot
05-13-2004, 03:39 AM
Making a skin for my old "HELLBIRD" outfit would be very generous of you and you would enjoy it, RAC_Pips for we were unique in the theater...We had our rudders painted red, and since that wasn't authorized, our Commandiing General ordered our commander to remove the red paint.

He refused.

So we were the only planes in over a thousand B29s that had a unique marking in addition to the authorized one.

We called ourselves the HELLBIRDS because Tokyo Rose called us "the birds from hell" when she broadcast a greeting to our group as it made its first landing in India.

We had thought our arrival in India was a big secret! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif We painted our rudders so that she would know whenever we were living up to the nane she gave us.

Did you do the skin on the B29 we have seen this week?

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Thu May 13 2004 at 02:48 AM.]

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Thu May 13 2004 at 02:51 AM.]

xenios
05-13-2004, 12:45 PM
Somebody mentioned in this thread that the Norden was used on a lot of other bombers, e.g. the PBY and others. I've just been re-reading Catch-22, and Heller mentions that the B-25s operating in the Med also used the Norden. I would imagine these were C or D models, but I'm not sure. Since this is most likely the first flyable U.S. bomber we'll see, I hope they can get the bombsight right.

The A-20 will probably be flyable somewhere down the line too, but I don't believe that used the Norden bombsight. Anyone know?

Droopsnoot
05-13-2004, 04:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xenios:
Somebody mentioned in this thread that the Norden was used on a lot of other bombers, e.g. the PBY and others. I've just been re-reading Catch-22, and Heller mentions that the B-25s operating in the Med also used the Norden. I would imagine these were C or D models, but I'm not sure. Since this is most likely the first flyable U.S. bomber we'll see, I hope they can get the bombsight right.

The A-20 will probably be flyable somewhere down the line too, but I don't believe that used the Norden bombsight. Anyone know?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Probably Cs in Africa,where I think Catch 22 was written about. But all models with plexiglass nose could have them installed. They took them out of the ones Doolittle used for his Tokyo raid so that none would be captured if they went down over Japan.

Also, at extreme low level the Norden drive wasn't fast enough to synchronize with, so it was preset and used as a fixed angle sight (officially), but most of us "toggled over our toe" for low level release... It was just as accurate and easier to do. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bombing with a preset Norden was much like what you do with CFS3 "sight"except the Norden had what was called an "Extended Vision Knob" that enabled you to see farther ahead and then quickly reset the computed fixed dropping angle when you got closer.

The so called "two bit" bombsight in the Tokyo Raiders planes actually cost several hundred dollars and wasn't any better for low level than just "eyeballing" when to release.

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Thu May 13 2004 at 03:28 PM.]

|CoB|_Spectre
05-14-2004, 02:23 PM
Still no response from Luthier on Droopsnoot's offer? I read that Luthier had been ill and Burnin's E3 PF shots mean he's tied up there now. I'm guessing the B-29 isn't going to be flyable, at least initially (maybe never), so he may not be able to use Droopsnoot's expertise. The FB forums had a thread wherein Oleg explained the tremendous increase in complexity required to construct bomber interior models, so it would be a major undertaking and maybe too much to expect for this sim series. Still, we can hope. Btw, Droopsnoot, I too want to express my generation's gratitude for what your generation did. I am still in awe of it.

Droopsnoot
05-14-2004, 07:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Spectre:
Still no response from Luthier on Droopsnoot's offer? I read that Luthier had been ill and Burnin's E3 PF shots mean he's tied up there now. I'm guessing the B-29 isn't going to be flyable, at least initially (maybe never), so he may not be able to use Droopsnoot's expertise. The FB forums had a thread wherein Oleg explained the tremendous increase in complexity required to construct bomber interior models, so it would be a major undertaking and maybe too much to expect for this sim series. Still, we can hope. Btw, Droopsnoot, I too want to express my generation's gratitude for what your generation did. I am still in awe of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you Spectre.

I believe the thread you referred to was more a matter of priorities rather than difficulty.

While an interior of any work station requires the skills of talented graphics arts people, the intricacy of the cockpits and pilot stations of most of the planes that Oleg's group have provided is far more detailed than the work stations of a bomber.

The problem is that a fighter has only one work station while a bomber has many. Thus, to add a fighter to the inventory takes much less time, and if the talent to produce it is from a volunteer, Oleg must bow to the desires of the fellow adding it for free, rather than being able to tell a paid employee what to make.

It may also be that the hobbyist volunteering is not up to making an interior, while he can make the exterior view: or that the research demanded is more stringent than just "what the plane looks like" externally.

Also, for every interior station modelled, the input by the player must be programmed to give the correct output for that station.

Additionally,the program must be written to evenallow the player to occupy that station, if players are allowed to move about from station to station on the plane..

So adding one bomber to the game can add a lot more of a development load than adding a single fighter plane.

Another major consideration is that of lag and frame rate... For every bomber carrying even one player, the computation load on the computer is a factor of the number of work stations operating simulataneously on the plane.

Comparing a sngle seater plane to one with several work stations; the single seater must have computations made for a player or an AI, while a multiplace craft must have computations for evey player aboard, plus AI to man each station not manned AT THAT TIME by a player.

Now put up a formation of multiplace aircraft, and watch the frame/lag rate go to pot!

Now you know why it may be that if a multiengine bomber type plane is required in the scenario, it is more advantageous from both an economical standpoint and a development time consideration, as well as the smooth game play factor, to make it simply AI controlled, and continue to make simpler games that are the same old, SAME OLD same old,furball and low level, single seater fighter scenarios.so far as player participation is concerned !

This is why there are so few multi-station planes and bomber scenarios on the market and why those that exiat at present have fixed angle bombsights that are arcade or toy substitutes for actually simulating the real life operation of a tachometric bombsight....

You see, publishers presently want a game, not a true combat simulation: and limit the amount they will pay a developer to produce it.

B17II, even with all its flaws was a Miracle and will always be considered a classic.

You should have seen what it would have been if the "Bean Counters" hadn't decided to quit paying for the development, and market it "AS IS" for the Christnmas season!

But perhaps you will, for publishers are beginning to wise up. I predict that there will be at least one Level Bomber combat flight simulation on the market for this Christmas or shortly thereafter, and another will sson follow after that.

So if PACIFIC FIGHTERS is going to be anything but a more modern rendition of CFS2 it had best include not only the fighter combat scenarios that softened up the Japanesse war making capability, but also include the Very Heavy Bombardment Scenasrio that ENDED the war in the Pacific.

Which wasn't accomplished by AI.

I hope the Bean Counters are listening...Furballs and low level strafing missions by fighters are no longer a novelty.

Instead, they are very nearly Arcade games, not combat flight simulations, and the "Game Box"market is polluted with that sort of thing.

Don't let Pacific Fighters as well as the Forgotten Battles series become Forgotten Games.

Give Pacific Fighters a true Bomber scenario, complete with bombers manned by PEOPLE, both in Single Player and Multiplayer configurations.

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Fri May 14 2004 at 06:42 PM.]

|CoB|_Spectre
05-14-2004, 08:35 PM
I can't tell you how disappointed I was when Hasbro bought Microprose and announced they would release B-17 II without multiplayer capability. I used to read the forums at bombs-away.net and marveled at how the members of the development communicated with their tentative customers. I'm sure the guys from Wayward experienced the ups and downs Oleg has gone through with the forums. I never bought a copy of The Mighty Eighth and now I can only find it on the internet. When the He-111 was made flyable, I spent a fair amount of time trying to build accuracy with the bombsight. I found I had a better of hitting the target if I did manual releases as opposed to letting the sight do it automatically. Graphically and in flight modeling, Oleg and crew have certainly established the benchmark for WWII era air combat sims. I agree with you that, to truly differentiate PF (and BoB) from air combat sims that have come before, the full breadth of airpower needs to be available (dive bombers, level bombers, torpedo bombers as well as fighters and patrol planes). Otherwise it's just a better CFS2 mousetrap. Thinking back, not long after the hayday of WWII prop sims hit the market (Janes WWII Fighters, European Air War and Combat Flight Simulator), the gaming press predicted the demise of pc-based flight sims. They reasoned that software developers would turn to console-based games because they didn't have to deal with hardware compatibility issues and tech support. Thank goodness Oleg Maddox came along when he did. Between hardware advancements and the increased capabilities it gives such wonderfully creative people, I can't imagine how good it's going to get in the next 5 years.

Droopsnoot
05-14-2004, 08:50 PM
Depends on how much latitude the bean counters give Oleg to keep up with what has to be done to stay current and competitive in the Flight Simulation market.

He is soon liable to be left behind and "Forgotten" if the Bean Counters "Miscount".

[This message was edited by Droopsnoot on Fri May 14 2004 at 11:46 PM.]

WWMaxGunz
05-14-2004, 08:56 PM
There may be another factor in having the heavies in PF and that is politics. B-17's over Germany is possible because postwar the Germans were pretty much conditioned (I have an Aunt from Regensburg, there are words you don't mention because she will cry.) and still so about the roles. Britain? Part of the culture, pride in having stood up to it all. But Japan I am not so sure of being able to stand of a sim where heavy bombers once again firebomb their cities. The closest I've seen to that from them is Godzilla which I am sure is an allegory to the war and their postwar relation to the US (yes, Godzilla becomes loved after he quits smashing and starts defending japan from other Monsters).

Or I could just be wrong. But somehow I see strong objections from Japan.


Neal

Eagle_34
05-14-2004, 10:12 PM
Hey mr droopsnoot just wanted to thank you for your service , i'm from the Netherlands and born in 1978 so third generation from your generation, and i just wanted to thank you for the fact that i can enjoy sims like this today in freedom and without tiranny.

I know that you considerd it as just a job that you and your generation felt had to be done, but i just wanted to say thank you either way.
It's not everyday i get to thank someone who
actually helped make sure that we as a people could live in freedom.

[This message was edited by Eagle_34 on Fri May 14 2004 at 09:54 PM.]

Droopsnoot
05-15-2004, 12:44 AM
Thank you Eagle_34, On behalf of both myself and my generation.

Droopsnoot
05-15-2004, 12:54 AM
Quote Neal:
"Or I could just be wrong. But somehow I see strong objections from Japan."

Na-a! Neal, This gives them another chance to shoot us down! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

|CoB|_Spectre
05-15-2004, 04:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WWMaxGunz:
There may be another factor in having the heavies in PF and that is politics...Or I could just be wrong. But somehow I see strong objections from Japan.

Neal<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you're describing is less "political" (involving politicians)and more "political correctness" (involving heaven knows what)and we all know how truth and accuracy suffer in the wake of revisionist history. The Enola Gay controversy surrounding the NASM is a good example. Considering there were more casualties from conventional bombing (including firebombing), you'd think the controversy would go far beyond that one plane. Maybe it's symbolic and viewed as the embodiment of the entire strategic bombing campaign that is behind it all. Your aunt's experience would indicate that even with the "conditioning" of post-war Germany there would be lingering memories of places like Dresden. Yet, we hear no outcry from our German friends when games like this sim feature B-17s. There are very real differences in how Germany views its war years and how Japan views theirs even today. I agree with Droopsnoot, like the Germans, it gives our Japanese friends another go at it and this time nobody gets hurt.

IronIan
05-15-2004, 04:24 AM
Well and comprehensively said Droopsnoot. I certainly hope that your predictions about bomber sims prove correct. Hopefully ever increasing CPU speeds, RAM sizes, Bandwidth and the falling prices of all these will eventually enable even the bean counters to not just permit but encourage and finance the development necessary to make a modern equivalent to multiplayer B-17 II online a reality at last. I suspect the firist software group to get such a sim into the market place will have a run away success beyond their wildest expectations.

Surely any semi-attentive observer whose priorities are marketing & investment, seeing the volume of traffic and the intelligence of most of the input to these forums, must conclude that the general simulator public WANT as much realism as possible? Ergo those who want arcade simulators buy Crimson Skies or any of the plethora of "space combat" sims out there.

There is also a clear reflection of a global demographic trend at work here. "Computer Games" are indeed perhaps largely the province of kids and adults with short attention spans, but true "simulations" cater to an increasingly exclusively adult market. This demographic group wants historical accuracy, realism and immersion in a vicarious version of experiences that reproduce those of their immediate ancestors as accurately as possible. This is a market with totally different demands and psychology from the "gamer's only" market. It also has a demonstrably higher level of average intelligence, articulateness and age. Online sims are bought in ever-larger numbers by "silver surfers" many of whom are also former fliers.

A great many of us are certainly sincere aviation enthusiasts who are also frustrated real world pilots, unable for reasons of income, domestic circumstance, medical condition or eye sight to pursue a private pilot's license. Microsoft's civilian Flight Simulator series revealed that this was a huge global group and continues to service it with FS2004 ACOF. However it is actually a minority of that group who remain content to spend hours going through accurate Boeing check-lists and then flying dummy airline schedules with phantom passengers who are never modelled properly even as AI figures. On the contrary, most of us want that elusive combination of realisim available in commercial simulators plus ACTION!

The developers just need to grasp this basic idea. Action does NOT = "Arcade".

I suspect that what we ALL want in the virtual air, on the virtual land, sea and beneath the virtual waves, are complex and immersively convincing ACTION within a "grown up" real world simulation that is a real as they can possibly make it! Add only the capacity for the software to expand and accelerate to accommodate the ever increasing capacities of our PCs and you have a "Mission statement" for all action simulator developers.

Perhaps the simple "starting" solution is just to restart and complete the B-17 II online game, with graphics that reflect todays available quality? Maybe Oleg should start a new game with ONLY that objective? I fully grasp his reasons for finding the inclusion of detailed dynamic bomber inberiors too heavy on band width demand. (Thank you Droopsnoot for such a clear explanation of that factor.)

regards to all

"The battlefield may be virtual but the experience is always real."

[This message was edited by IronIan on Sat May 15 2004 at 03:32 AM.]

|CoB|_Spectre
05-15-2004, 06:47 AM
I can think of no better design group than 1C:Maddox to tackle such a project. While flight simulators have always had a large following, when compared to the biggest FPS games like Half-Life, air combat simulator sales pale in comparison. To be sure, we are a dedicated and vocal lot, but the large software publishing companies have all but abandoned the genre. With this came the opportunity for small companies with lower operating costs to cater to that group deemed unprofitable by the big houses (many of whom are now defunct). Ubi's partnering with 1C:Maddox was a fortuitous event for us all. Had it been Electronic Arts or Hasbro, I think the results would have been vastly different. Certainly there probably would not have been the continued support by the developer. Just look at giant Microsoft and you see a company with incredible resources, yet they release a flight sim and seldom go beyond one patch. It is to Oleg's credit that he turned-down offers from MS. Their open source code is a two-edged sword which allows tampering by the unscrupulous, but also allows 3rd party support far beyond anything the publisher is willing to provide. I am not privy to Oleg's contractual agreement with Ubi, but so far it seems to have been farsighted and in the best interest of all parties...certainly for the buying public. I'm sure his embedded coding is a pain to deal with in regards to making changes, but it has made the game unprecedently cheatproof and safeguards the developer's intellectual property. Oleg has set a standard unheard of in gaming software business. Unlike the "big boys", he does not cater to the lowest common denominator, but he does provide scalability for the novice without sacrificing the experience favored by the hardcore simmer. I applaud his unwillingness to "sell out". It shows a strength of character seldom seen in the business world.

I don't think bandwidth is an issue in modeling the interiors of multi-crewed aircraft since most of what you see is static. The textures don't seem to consume heavy resources, but high poly counts do. Oleg has a requirement for accuracy that borders on the fanatical. That's why some Russian multi-crew planes have not been made flyable due to lack of usable technical drawings and surviving aircraft. I'm sure what Wayward sought to do with B-17 II could be surpassed. As you suggested, it may have to be a standalone program particularly if capable of online multiplay. Frankly, if it wasn't, I think it would suffer the same fate of The Mighty Eighth.

[This message was edited by ZG77_Spectre on Sat May 15 2004 at 06:01 AM.]

gombal40
05-16-2004, 08:29 AM
Hellbirds B-29 U15 (http://www.mrprophead.com/b29nose3.htm)

Droopsnoop u know these guys?

Droopsnoot
05-16-2004, 11:25 AM
They were in the 768th Squadron, but I didn't know them. For some reason, they were not photographed when the rest of the pictures were taken for the official "HELLBIRD" book, published after the war,for they are listed under those not photographed. Perhaps they were a replacement crew into the squadron.

We were all pretty much segregated in "Hootches" in India, and by Squad tents until the last,on Tinian, when the quonset huts were built and we tended to just hang out with our tentmates, who weren't necessarily crewmates.,

I don't even know if my old crew mewmbers, or tentmates are still alive, for we all went our separate ways after the war, and I don't attend the reunions..

Since we had no O. Club till toward the last, we didn't run into others in the outfit except during briefings, but we didn't mingle there.

luthier1
05-17-2004, 02:10 AM
Droopsnoot,

Sorry I didn't reply here earlier, I was at E3 when this was posted with no internet access, just now have a chance to go through the forums.

Unfortunately I have no way of seeing the email address you've used when you registered here. I'd certainly love to have your help with the project though. Please email me at Luthier@il2center.com and we'll take it from there.

Always great to have a veteran helping with our sims!!!!

http://www.il2center.com/PF.jpg

Snyde-Dastardly
05-17-2004, 06:21 AM
Hot DAMN!!!
Go get em Droopsnoot!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://img21.photobucket.com/albums/v62/Vic-Whiplash/DN_4.bmp

Snuffy_Hadden
05-18-2004, 08:39 AM
Luthier,

If you guys really listen to this guy and work with him, you won't be disappointed. The B-17II community greatly appreciates his donation to that game. And if the Major's knowledge is put to proper use here, FB/AEP/PF/BoB/Etc., might just exceed what it's capable of now. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

:salute: Major.

heywooood
05-18-2004, 08:16 PM
Very encouraging reply from Luthier.

"I wish I was leadin' it, you guys are gonna LOVE this one!" : COBB

" Gentlemen - Todays target is -" : Savage

" GERMANY!" : Gately

" You guessed IT!... Wilhelmshaven !" :Savage

I know - wrong theater - I just couldn't help myself.... I love that film. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

FooFTR
05-19-2004, 08:54 AM
Guess i'll have to did out my old copy of B-17II
& give it a whirl. IMHO microproses dropping of multi-player support is what doomed that sim
to the lack of recognition that it now has.

I still have EAW & Falcon 4 on my HD & still play them. At least we don't have to worry about lack of support from 1C Maddox games. What we end up getting in the long term is much more than we thought we'd get in the beginning.

It would be very cool to get an ai B-29 & have intercept mission with the K-84 & Ki-46III-Kai.
Of course you'd have to get through the jugs & stang on escort duty. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif