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Bipolar Matt
01-16-2016, 10:29 PM
Violet wonders about this in the AC Rogue database entries. No official reason is ever given.

So...let's come up with a canonical reason of our own. Why didn't Shay (for story consistency purposes) get a mention by Haytham in his journal?

ze_topazio
01-16-2016, 10:44 PM
Because Haytham was writing the journal with the intention of letting Connor read it, Haytham was incapable of killing his own son but he was still loyal to the Templars and their ideals so he avoid mentioning too much information about the Templar order.

LucidReveries
01-16-2016, 10:47 PM
Cause Shay's voice was atrocious. :rolleyes:

I-Like-Pie45
01-16-2016, 10:51 PM
because the writers hadn't created shay yet

Bipolar Matt
01-16-2016, 11:21 PM
because the writers hadn't created shay yet

lol. I know. Story reasons, man. Story reason! :)

Bipolar Matt
01-16-2016, 11:23 PM
Cause Shay's voice was atrocious. :rolleyes:

I didn't think Steve Piovesan did a bad job at all.

Mr.Black24
01-16-2016, 11:32 PM
Because Haytham was writing the journal with the intention of letting Connor read it, Haytham was incapable of killing his own son but he was still loyal to the Templars and their ideals so he avoid mentioning too much information about the Templar order.
Yeah I figured that Shay would be Haytham's ace card. But now we can't see the result of this huh, Ubisoft?

VoldR
01-16-2016, 11:50 PM
lol. I know. Story reasons, man. Story reason! :)

Feels like i'm back in a Star Trek forum, lol

let's see...

In order for Shay's mission to be successful he needs him to be totally anonymous???

If Connor knew about him, through his journals. He might warn other Assassin groups especially in Paris about it. Since not, Arno's father fell victim to an unknown assailant.

This is also like asking why Achilles said nothing either, a living book.
must have slipped his mind or don't want to burden the kid further with something that he might not be able to do anything about, since he's long gone.

ze_topazio
01-17-2016, 12:01 AM
Nothing indicates Achilles didn't told Connor about Shay during those skipped conversations and years of training, Shay simply wasn't a concern for Connor.

But Shay was Achilles greatest failure, it would make sense for him to not want to talk about such thing.

VoldR
01-17-2016, 12:23 AM
Nothing indicates Achilles didn't told Connor about Shay during those skipped conversations and years of training, Shay simply wasn't a concern for Connor.

But Shay was Achilles greatest failure, it would make sense for him to not want to talk about such thing.
Connor had strong notions about Achilles failures and blab about it when they were quarreling.

If he don't know the details, that's a big thing to say with such little knowledge on the matter.

"U failed, I don't know why but u did. So there!"

Not saying this is why he 'should know' what happened. Just saying he may be that dense... :)

Ureh
01-17-2016, 12:37 AM
It's there in invisible ink. Such a thing existed back in day you know (I saw it in National Treasure). If you use eagle vision (or wear Ben Franklin's glasses) you'll see it hidden in the pages.

Bipolar Matt
01-17-2016, 12:57 AM
I would tend to agree. If his journal should happen to fall into someone else's hands, Assassin especially, revealing information about Shay and what he was doing looking for the box, would have been bad. And I'm betting that the journal, even when Haytham willed it to Connor, didn't divulge any big Templar secrets or plans (in observance of the Templar Oath).

Bipolar Matt
01-17-2016, 02:14 AM
It's there in invisible ink. Such a thing existed back in day you know (I saw it in National Treasure). If you use eagle vision (or wear Ben Franklin's glasses) you'll see it hidden in the pages.

I kind of like that idea. It was there on the wall in the Kenway mansion, what notes to play. Altair's Codex. Nostradamus Enigmas. Mayan stallae. Why not in Haytham's journal too?

VestigialLlama4
01-17-2016, 05:37 AM
Haytham is an English Londoner Snob. He saw Shay as Irish trash who finally lived up to the shifty, disloyal nature of the Irish (in his British eyes) and became a true collaborator of the Empire. So why the hell should he, Haytham the Great, mention a lowlife in his private journal?

I-Like-Pie45
01-17-2016, 05:46 AM
thats racist llama

SixKeys
01-17-2016, 07:11 AM
This is why:

http://orig06.deviantart.net/774a/f/2014/286/1/5/bonfire_of_the_creed_by_sunsetagain-d82oj4y.jpg
Sunsetagain (http://fav.me/d82oj4y)

Civona
01-17-2016, 07:25 AM
because Haytham realized that Shay was a badly-written character and everything about him sucks.

VestigialLlama4
01-17-2016, 08:01 AM
because Haytham realized that Shay was a badly-written character and everything about him sucks.

Shay wasn't even invented yet when Haytham wrote that journal.

But okay, here's one reason: Haytham's journal is entirely personal. He talks only about his family. The only reason he mentions the events of AC3 is that Connor is his son. For him the journal is private and personal and in that book he skims most of his professional work. Doesn't mention kickstarting the Boston Massacre, his plans for the Revolution, doesn't mention the purge of the Brotherhood. To Haytham, that's just work and he doesn't feel like thinking too much about it. In ROGUE, Haytham is not too close to Shay, he basically treats him as an underling. It's clear in AC3 that Charles Lee was his only close friend among the Templars and the rest of the inner circle were mere grunts.

There's also the class issues. Haytham is a London Snob and he relates mainly to people of his own class, chiefly Charles Lee. In AC3 he refuses to shake the hands of the sailor on board the ship of the Aquila. Shay is, from his perspective, an Irish collaborator and informant. So Haytham would see Shay and think, "Okay, he's living up to the stereotype we have made of his people" so there's not any reason for Haytham to know that guy too well.

SpiritOfNevaeh
01-17-2016, 03:32 PM
Yeah, I've always wondered why he wasn't mentioned. And some of the reasons you guys stated here could make sense.

Maybe Shay asked not to be mentioned in the journal? Maybe Haytham chose not to mention him because he didn't want anyone to know who brought down the brotherhood? Maybe he wanted to keep Shay as secretive as possible since he WAS an assassin-turned-Templar so the assassins couldnt hunt him down?

I always thought that Arno would find out that Shay was in France, informed by Connor and try to locate him, but Shay comes back to America so he didn't have the chance to investigate him.

But he would eventually find out that it was him that got to Charles Dorian, travel to America, and ask for help from Connor and team up with him, maybe even Aveline as well, to track him down.

Just thinking out loud :)

But of course, all this remains to be seen.

ERICATHERINE
01-17-2016, 05:23 PM
I kind of like that idea. It was there on the wall in the Kenway mansion, what notes to play. Altair's Codex. Nostradamus Enigmas. Mayan stallae. Why not in Haytham's journal too?

You forgot the enigmas conserning the sword of Suger. ^-^

Bipolar Matt
01-17-2016, 05:25 PM
Shay wasn't even invented yet when Haytham wrote that journal.

Maybe Shay was story boarded as a character this point? I don't know. Perhaps they did conceive of the entire North American saga as an arc and had plans for Shay.


But okay, here's one reason: Haytham's journal is entirely personal. He talks only about his family. The only reason he mentions the events of AC3 is that Connor is his son. For him the journal is private and personal and in that book he skims most of his professional work. Doesn't mention kickstarting the Boston Massacre, his plans for the Revolution, doesn't mention the purge of the Brotherhood. To Haytham, that's just work and he doesn't feel like thinking too much about it. In ROGUE, Haytham is not too close to Shay, he basically treats him as an underling. It's clear in AC3 that Charles Lee was his only close friend among the Templars and the rest of the inner circle were mere grunts.

This is actually the most practical answer yet. His personal journal being about personal matters only. Do we know this is canon, no Templar business matters being discussed in the journal?

Haytham viewed the Colonial Templar inner circle as mere grunts?

Well, yes and no.

If not friends, it seems that Haytham had at least a high respect for William Johnson and Col. George Monro, being a landowner/businessman and a highly decorated career military man, respectively. Jack Weeks, Christopher Gist, Benjamin Church and John Pitcairn perhaps to a little lesser degree and Thomas Hickey having the least respect from Haytham, as Hickey hailed from very common lower class Irish origins and was little more than a mercenary thug. Hickey admitted as such in his death monologue.

We never saw Haytham interact with Lawrence Washington, Samuel Smith, James Wardrop or Nicholas Biddle, so we don't know what those relationships were like.

Charles Lee was his closest friend among the Templars, definitely. I think he regarded Benjamin Church as more of a friend as well, with how personally he took it after Church betrayed the order and Haytham was berating him while beating the sh*t out of Church. He seemed personally betrayed by a friend to me, there. Had it just been a nobody Templar turncoat, Haytham would have just killed him without any theatrics.


There's also the class issues. Haytham is a London Snob and he relates mainly to people of his own class, chiefly Charles Lee. In AC3 he refuses to shake the hands of the sailor on board the ship of the Aquila. Shay is, from his perspective, an Irish collaborator and informant. So Haytham would see Shay and think, "Okay, he's living up to the stereotype we have made of his people" so there's not any reason for Haytham to know that guy too well.

If not a close friend, Haytham at least had a very healthy respect for Shay and his abilities. He had a one-on-one conversation with Shay about the PoEs, which we had no indication he ever had with others. He recognized and acknowledged Shay's potential and the admiration Monro had for him. He entrusted Shay with what Haytham viewed as an incredibly important mission, recovery of the Precursor Box. I also think it spoke volumes that Haytham was swayed by Shay's argument to spare Achilles at the end of Rogue; Haytham respected his opinion.

While I agree they may not have been friends, in my estimation Haytham did not view Shay as a common Irish Templar thug, but a very special asset to the Templars.

I also admit I have never read any of the AC novels, so perhaps I missed some details that can be found in those.

VestigialLlama4
01-17-2016, 06:33 PM
Maybe Shay was story boarded as a character this point?

Well as per interviews with writers, they fully admit that "they make it as they go along". Shay was invented at the end of Black Flag and concieved for a quick late console release.


This is actually the most practical answer yet. His personal journal being about personal matters only. Do we know this is canon, no Templar business matters being discussed in the journal?

Stuff like this isn't so much about "canon" as basic inferences you can draw from Haytham's persona and the setting. It's basically subjective. The truth is the writers of AC never came up with a decent answer to this question since they never planned the world building properly. Shay was never concieved at the start of the Kenway/New World saga. So in a real sense, we fans are doing the writers job for them in coming up with explanations.


Haytham viewed the Colonial Templar inner circle as mere grunts?

Based on his interactions at the start of AC3 and Rogue cutscenes, and also the Templar philosophy ("People need order for guidance"), Haytham would behave that way as Templar Grandmaster. There is strict discipline and no room for sentiment, since everyone is expendable.


If not a close friend, Haytham at least had a very healthy respect for Shay and his abilities.

That is something fans seem to project on to the game, aided by misleading and lying developers, but it's not what we see in the game. Haytham is very brief and curt with Shay and never shares anything personal with him. To him, it's all business.


He had a one-on-one conversation with Shay about the PoEs, which we had no indication he ever had with others.

That's because he was an eyewitness and Haytham doesn't discuss the First Civilization Temple with Shay at all.


While I agree they may not have been friends, in my estimation Haytham did not view Shay as a common Irish Templar thug, but a very special asset to the Templars.

To Haytham a "common Irish thug" and "Asset to the Templars" would be the same thing. To the Templars, all people who are not part of the elite (i.e Grand Master and his select apprentices) are pawns, puppets and tools. Within Rogue, the Templars see Shay as a puppet, with Monro manipulating Shay into the fold and Christopher Gist reminding Shay that the minute he thinks of repenting his allegiance he would be killed either by Haytham or Gist himself. Shay is basically Haytham's b--ch and contrary to what he keeps spouting, he never makes his own luck.

Assassin_M
01-17-2016, 07:57 PM
Well, why didn't Haytham mention the Boston Massacre? Taking down the Assassins? The journal is very personal, Haytham only mentions his childhood, the search for his sister, investigating his father's death and anything pertaining to Ziio and Connor. Due to this, it's natural that he doesn't mention Shay. Why would he? Really, Shay is nothing to Haytham but another soldier. That comic is very exaggerated. Haytham cared none for Shay and Shay cared none for Haytham, their relationship was very cold towards one another. Just the boss and his underling.

Fatal-Feit
01-17-2016, 08:11 PM
Well, why didn't Haytham mention the Boston Massacre? Taking down the Assassins? The journal is very personal, Haytham only mentions his childhood, the search for his sister, investigating his father's death and anything pertaining to Ziio and Connor. Due to this, it's natural that he doesn't mention Shay. Why would he? Really, Shay is nothing to Haytham but another soldier. That comic is very exaggerated. Haytham cared none for Shay and Shay cared none for Haytham, their relationship was very cold towards one another. Just the boss and his underling.

i cri evertim

I-Like-Pie45
01-17-2016, 08:28 PM
its funny how everyones favorite chareesessematic and weety AC3 character suddenly loses all of that when hes not surrounded by someone to debate intellectual with or someone to sass with

ze_topazio
01-17-2016, 08:40 PM
Well, why didn't Haytham mention the Boston Massacre? Taking down the Assassins? The journal is very personal, Haytham only mentions his childhood, the search for his sister, investigating his father's death and anything pertaining to Ziio and Connor. Due to this, it's natural that he doesn't mention Shay. Why would he? Really, Shay is nothing to Haytham but another soldier. That comic is very exaggerated. Haytham cared none for Shay and Shay cared none for Haytham, their relationship was very cold towards one another. Just the boss and his underling.

Hey, you're ruining the dreams of all shippers out there.

Assassin_M
01-17-2016, 08:51 PM
its funny how everyones favorite chareesessematic and weety AC3 character suddenly loses all of that when hes not surrounded by someone to debate intellectual with or someone to sass with


i cri evertim

I think I made a thread about it a few months ago. Haytham is really not interesting on his own. Rogue actually made me realize that I only liked Haytham because of his interaction with Ziio and Connor. There's nothing else to him but a conceited charm and a British accent.


Hey, you're ruining the dreams of all shippers out there.
Too late, I already did.

VestigialLlama4
01-17-2016, 09:14 PM
There's nothing else to him but a conceited charm and a British accent.

I actually think that's all it needs for some characters to be popular: conceited charm and British accent. Put those qualities and audiences project all sorts of crap on to characters that aren't really there in the game. This isn't so bad as long as developers know their character but then ubisoft listening to the online projections and out of that incestuous cannibalism, you get Rogue where Gist and all the Templars fangirl over Haytham before his appearance in the game, when it makes zero sense for Haytham to be held in that regard since 1) He just recently arrived in the New World, 2) Others were there longer. 3) Hasn't really done much to be held this way.

In AC3, it's only Charles Lee who crushes on Haytham and that's largely because he's an aspiring novice and sees Haytham as his Patron/Sponsor, but the other Templars are all business like and snarky with Haytham, with Thomas Hickey making fun of "the big man" in his monologue.

In any case, the real question this poster should be asking is...why didn't Achilles mention Shay and the other Assassins he trained to Connor in AC3? Achilles and Shay are the crucial relationship in ROGUE and Achilles is in many ways the true hero of that story, since it's entirely about his tragedy and fall from grace, as seen from Shay's point of view. Now of course, the reasons why Achilles didn't mention Shay is more sensible, 1) Bad Memories (which he's reluctant to discuss) 2) Guilt and 3) He probably did mention Connor at some point in their 10+ year friendship, and obviously you can imagine it taking place during the lengthy time skips in the game.

Mr.Black24
01-18-2016, 04:25 AM
That comic is very exaggerated. Haytham cared none for Shay and Shay cared none for Haytham, their relationship was very cold towards one another. Just the boss and his underling. That is because sunsetagain is very big on HaythamXShay, not to mention a huge Shay fan. Poor lass had a breakdown when people kept asking her for a Shay vs Connor or Arno.





In any case, the real question this poster should be asking is...why didn't Achilles mention Shay and the other Assassins he trained to Connor in AC3? Achilles and Shay are the crucial relationship in ROGUE and Achilles is in many ways the true hero of that story, since it's entirely about his tragedy and fall from grace, as seen from Shay's point of view. Now of course, the reasons why Achilles didn't mention Shay is more sensible, 1) Bad Memories (which he's reluctant to discuss) 2) Guilt and 3) He probably did mention Connor at some point in their 10+ year friendship, and obviously you can imagine it taking place during the lengthy time skips in the game.

I believe more so on the latter. Achilles did swallow his pride and acknowledge Connor that he failed the true mission of the Assassin cause and failure to stop the Templars from acquiring power. It would make sense that he did tell him.

My question is that now with Shay aware of Connor, what will he do with that knowledge?

VestigialLlama4
01-18-2016, 05:29 AM
My question is that now with Shay aware of Connor, what will he do with that knowledge?

He will do what he has always done...dance to whatever pivot the writers puppet him through, since he isn't a character. He's just a fanfiction persona cooked up by internet forums and Haytham fanboys, and converted into the illusion of character by the writers.

Basically, if the writers want Shay to whack Connor, they'll have him do it. If they want Arno to whack Shay to avenge his father and Connor's deaths, they will do it...Shay will dance through whatever transmedia hellhole he exists in all the while spouting "Make my own luck" when in fact he has never made his own luck at all.

SixKeys
01-18-2016, 07:22 AM
I think I made a thread about it a few months ago. Haytham is really not interesting on his own. Rogue actually made me realize that I only liked Haytham because of his interaction with Ziio and Connor. There's nothing else to him but a conceited charm and a British accent.

You have a point, but I think he was just poorly written in Rogue. In AC3 Haytham had charm in his scenes with Charles or when he got into that bar fight ("now, I'm going to feed you your teeth"). In Rogue he had no real purpose, so he came across as very bland.
Judging by all the Shaytham shipping I saw before playing the game, I expected them to actually have some sort of relationship in the story (not like that, just ANY kind of relationship) but when I played it, I don't even know why Haytham bothered to meet Shay so many times. Shay was nothing more than just another agent, there was nothing special about him and Haytham didn't seem to think so either. It was very much a general vs. private relationship. They were entirely neutral towards each other the entire time. The stuff Haytham did do was sometimes out of character with how we saw him at the beginning of AC3. At the start of AC3, he was still somewhat idealistic, sociable and would occasionally show mercy. In Rogue he acts like a snob and just kills people in cold blood and it feels off.

Mr.Black24
01-18-2016, 11:58 PM
You have a point, but I think he was just poorly written in Rogue. In AC3 Haytham had charm in his scenes with Charles or when he got into that bar fight ("now, I'm going to feed you your teeth"). In Rogue he had no real purpose, so he came across as very bland.
Judging by all the Shaytham shipping I saw before playing the game, I expected them to actually have some sort of relationship in the story (not like that, just ANY kind of relationship) but when I played it, I don't even know why Haytham bothered to meet Shay so many times. Shay was nothing more than just another agent, there was nothing special about him and Haytham didn't seem to think so either. It was very much a general vs. private relationship. They were entirely neutral towards each other the entire time. The stuff Haytham did do was sometimes out of character with how we saw him at the beginning of AC3. At the start of AC3, he was still somewhat idealistic, sociable and would occasionally show mercy. In Rogue he acts like a snob and just kills people in cold blood and it feels off.

I fully expected a mentor-pupil relationship, but got none of what I was expecting. Like we had always seen the Assassin and Templar philosophy, but from the eyes of the Assassins. We had always gotten the full experience and breakdown of the Creed and their view on the world. We see Templar's motives and visions for the world, but only in snippets, granted very strong snippets but still snippets.

I was hoping that we can even indulge much more deeper with Haytham. Explaining why the Templar's views are right for the world. How they see themselves, and how they view the Assassins. We know Templars have been known to say misguided and all, but I was hoping for more talk. Not to mention that it was the perfect opportunity to learn about their infamous phrase, "The Father of Understanding" None of that at all, instead we just get "those darn gangs and rouges!"

cawatrooper9
01-19-2016, 03:50 PM
If you'd notice, POEs aren't really that big of a part of the storyline in ACIII. In fact, it may be the least First Civ-centered game in the series. Perhaps Haytham saw something in Connor that reinkindled some doubts that he had about the political side of the Templars vs Assassin conflict- nothing too strong, but enough to make him reevaluate what really was for the greater good. Since he and Connor did periodically work together, it's clear that Haytham was considerably less "anti-Assassin" than most other Templars we've seen (barring, perhaps, the deLassere sect). Outside of the POEs and precursor related items, Haytham really didn't have a ton of beef with the Assassins.

However, echoing the tone of Rogue, Haytham saw a lot if truth in Shay's quest to keep the Assassins away from the Trees of Eden, as well as his quest for the box. Both of these things- both precursor related- were of the upmost importance to Haytham, and he truly believed that the Templars were working from a justified position on them.

So, because of this, Haytham wanted to keep Shay a secret. No one was to know who he was, or even necessarily that he existed. Consider, for instance, that Templars and Assassins can usually recognize each others' faces pretty easily upon meeting each other- for example, no Templar ever had to be told who Ezio was upon their death, Starrick knew what Evie and Jacob looked like enough to recognize them at a party even without their robes, etc. Charles Dorian does not recognize Shay from his appearance, but from his actions- when Shay kills him, Dorian says "You're the traitor!" or "TR-8R!" or something along those lines. He didn't necessarily know who Shay was or what he looked like- only that there was indeed a traitor among the Assassins- and that is exactly how Haytham and Shay wanted it.

Hans684
01-19-2016, 04:07 PM
If you'd notice, POEs aren't really that big of a part of the storyline in ACIII. In fact, it may be the least First Civ-centered game in the series. Perhaps Haytham saw something in Connor that reinkindled some doubts that he had about the political side of the Templars vs Assassin conflict- nothing too strong, but enough to make him reevaluate what really was for the greater good. Since he and Connor did periodically work together, it's clear that Haytham was considerably less "anti-Assassin" than most other Templars we've seen (barring, perhaps, the deLassere sect). Outside of the POEs and precursor related items, Haytham really didn't have a ton of beef with the Assassins.

However, echoing the tone of Rogue, Haytham saw a lot if truth in Shay's quest to keep the Assassins away from the Trees of Eden, as well as his quest for the box. Both of these things- both precursor related- were of the upmost importance to Haytham, and he truly believed that the Templars were working from a justified position on them.

So, because of this, Haytham wanted to keep Shay a secret. No one was to know who he was, or even necessarily that he existed. Consider, for instance, that Templars and Assassins can usually recognize each others' faces pretty easily upon meeting each other- for example, no Templar ever had to be told who Ezio was upon their death, Starrick knew what Evie and Jacob looked like enough to recognize them at a party even without their robes, etc. Charles Dorian does not recognize Shay from his appearance, but from his actions- when Shay kills him, Dorian says "You're the traitor!" or "TR-8R!" or something along those lines. He didn't necessarily know who Shay was or what he looked like- only that there was indeed a traitor among the Assassins- and that is exactly how Haytham and Shay wanted it.

Add the fact that Shay is a Master Templar as well, meaning he's above every other Colonial Templar as they are just Templars and that there is a model of the Morrigan in the Kenway Mansion shows he values him a lot. He said something along the "I have no doubt you will become the best among us", if anything. Shay isn't exactly Haytham's favorite(Lee is more close), however he values him to the point where he's kept a secret because of his potential and a has a ship model on the Morrigan in the Kenway Mansion. I don't think Lee has anything in the Mansion, so their relationship is more subtle and secret. Respect for each other and simply a leader who value one of his colleges,

cawatrooper9
01-19-2016, 04:14 PM
Shay isn't exactly Haytham's favorite(Lee is more close), however he values him to the point where he's kept a secret because of his potential and a has a ship model on the Morrigan in the Kenway Mansion. I don't think Lee has anything in the Mansion, so their relationship is more subtle and secret. Respect for each other and simply a leader who value one of his colleges,
To break the immersion for a moment, I'd assume this is more of a case of each game trying to make the playable character the "chosen one" trope... however, this is a thread about apologetic storytelling, so I could certainly see that being the case.

Additionally, I'd note that Lee was Haytham's longtime protegee, with Haytham from the first moment he set foot on Continental soil. Shay is more of an outsider to Haytham- an incredibly gifted fighter (far more than Lee stands a chance of being), has connections to POEs (unlike Lee's failure to find the Great Temple), and knows the inner working of the Colonial Assassins like no other Templar ever could. Shay is everything Lee ever wanted to be, and like Hans said, even Haytham recognized that Shay could "be the best".

Therefore, I think it really speaks to how much faith Haytham has in Lee's ability to lead that their relationship remains the strongest. After sending Shay for the box Haytham had well over a decade to help Lee rise to power. Sure, Haytham had a trinket in his mansion commemorating his workings with Shay, but for Lee he actually gave his life.

Bipolar Matt
01-19-2016, 04:38 PM
Add the fact that Shay is a Master Templar as well, meaning he's above every other Colonial Templar as they are just Templars and that there is a model of the Morrigan in the Kenway Mansion shows he values him a lot. He said something along the "I have no doubt you will become the best among us", if anything. Shay isn't exactly Haytham's favorite(Lee is more close), however he values him to the point where he's kept a secret because of his potential and a has a ship model on the Morrigan in the Kenway Mansion. I don't think Lee has anything in the Mansion, so their relationship is more subtle and secret. Respect for each other and simply a leader who value one of his colleges,

I guess I didn't look that closely. Being Edward Kenway's memorabilia, wouldn't it make more sense for the ship model to be the Jackdaw instead of the Morrigan?

VestigialLlama4
01-19-2016, 04:45 PM
I guess I didn't look that closely. Being Edward Kenway's memorabilia, wouldn't it make more sense for the ship model to be the Jackdaw instead of the Morrigan?

Yeah, it was classic ubisoft incompetence. The indicators say Jackdaw clearly.

cawatrooper9
01-19-2016, 04:49 PM
I guess I didn't look that closely. Being Edward Kenway's memorabilia, wouldn't it make more sense for the ship model to be the Jackdaw instead of the Morrigan?


Yeah, it was classic ubisoft incompetence. The indicators say Jackdaw clearly.
I also thought it was a Jackdaw- I was just assuming I missed something, based on what others said. It would make more sense that the Kenway mansion would have Jackdaw memorabilia, since Edward spent several years there- not really sure Haytham would've spent much (if any) time there after meeting Shay.

Hans684
01-19-2016, 04:56 PM
To break the immersion for a moment, I'd assume this is more of a case of each game trying to make the playable character the "chosen one" trope... however, this is a thread about apologetic storytelling, so I could certainly see that being the case.


Additionally, I'd note that Lee was Haytham's longtime protegee, with Haytham from the first moment he set foot on Continental soil.

True but one he got his initiation he got the title Templar, Shay got Master Templar. A rank higher than Lee and every other Templar of the Colonial Rite.


Shay is more of an outsider to Haytham- an incredibly gifted fighter (far more than Lee stands a chance of being), has connections to POEs (unlike Lee's failure to find the Great Temple), and knows the inner working of the Colonial Assassins like no other Templar ever could. Shay is everything Lee ever wanted to be, and like Hans said, even Haytham recognized that Shay could "be the best".

And that's why he value and respect him.


Therefore, I think it really speaks to how much faith Haytham has in Lee's ability to lead that their relationship remains the strongest. After sending Shay for the box Haytham had well over a decade to help Lee rise to power. Sure, Haytham had a trinket in his mansion commemorating his workings with Shay, but for Lee he actually gave his life.

It certainly does. Had Shay been there then Shay would have gotten the title Grand Master since he's a Master Templar, a rank above everyone else. Over that decade with the second best member of his Rite gone, it being Lee instead as he personally trained him makes sense. Sure he has less potential that Shay but not much of a choice when the "best among us" is working on getting the box back.


I guess I didn't look that closely. Being Edward Kenway's memorabilia, wouldn't it make more sense for the ship model to be the Jackdaw instead of the Morrigan?

There are two ship models in the Kenway Mansion.

cawatrooper9
01-19-2016, 05:04 PM
True but one he got his initiation he got the title Templar, Shay got Master Templar. A rank higher than Lee and every other Templar of the Colonial Rite.


I could be wrong (I'm terrible with titles and such) but wasn't Haytham a Grand Master? Or did that come later?

Mr.Black24
01-19-2016, 05:15 PM
I guess I didn't look that closely. Being Edward Kenway's memorabilia, wouldn't it make more sense for the ship model to be the Jackdaw instead of the Morrigan?

Yeah, it was classic ubisoft incompetence. The indicators say Jackdaw clearly.

I also thought it was a Jackdaw- I was just assuming I missed something, based on what others said. It would make more sense that the Kenway mansion would have Jackdaw memorabilia, since Edward spent several years there- not really sure Haytham would've spent much (if any) time there after meeting Shay.


Yup here is the Jackdaw

https://56.media.tumblr.com/37747e922fe04a687bb6a787f51218cf/tumblr_inline_o0msnxuKg71qmpdv3_540.jpg

And here is the Morrigan

https://41.media.tumblr.com/117e5573cf9c205a5d47811e461efde8/tumblr_nwr11oWplU1r1ed0mo2_540.jpg

I have said it once and I will say it again: Give props to Shay, who really isn't a Kenway, but show none for Connor, who is a Kenway.....

Now excuse me while I hate on the fact that Connor gets no respect by Ubisoft.

Bipolar Matt
01-19-2016, 05:23 PM
Yup here is the Jackdaw

https://56.media.tumblr.com/37747e922fe04a687bb6a787f51218cf/tumblr_inline_o0msnxuKg71qmpdv3_540.jpg

And here is the Morrigan

https://41.media.tumblr.com/117e5573cf9c205a5d47811e461efde8/tumblr_nwr11oWplU1r1ed0mo2_540.jpg

I have said it once and I will say it again: Give props to Shay, who really isn't a Kenway, but show none for Connor, who is a Kenway.....

Now excuse me while I hate on the fact that Connor gets no respect by Ubisoft.Z

Nice catch. Thanks.

Connor did deserve better. A full-fledged what happened to him beyond the little snippet we got in Rogue would be a good start. Also, what else did he accomplish after AC3, as an Assassin? Did any of his children go onto be Assassins? Stuff like that.

cawatrooper9
01-19-2016, 05:25 PM
I have said it once and I will say it again: Give props to Shay, who really isn't a Kenway, but show none for Connor, who is a Kenway.....

Now excuse me while I hate on the fact that Connor gets no respect by Ubisoft.

Yeah, from a meta viewpoint I can see how Connor really got snubbed there. However, with the lore (which is what this thread is about), it might kinda make sense. Again, I'm not sure Haytham spent much time in Kenway mansion after meeting Shay and the Morrigan, so its inclusion is a little questionable. However, I find it extremely unlikely- borderline impossible- that Haytham spent any time in London after meeting Connor. I don't think he'd have left the front lines in the midst of the Revolution, and even if so I don't think his participation in the storyline would even allow him the time he'd need to make the voyage.

Correction: According to the AC wiki timeline, Connor and Haytham's alliance began on January 7th, 1778. It ended on June 17th of that same year, when Connor lashed out at Haytham and Washington when he learned of the attack on his village. It wasn't until September 16th of 1781 that Connor attacked Fort George and ended up killing Haytham- over three and a half years after their brief alliance ended.

To sail from the American colonies to Britain would've taken about 3 months round trip, assuming no other stops were made. So, I guess it's very possible that Haytham stopped in London during some time, and maybe it's detailed more in that pesky novel.

Mr.Black24
01-19-2016, 06:22 PM
Yeah, from a meta viewpoint I can see how Connor really got snubbed there. However, with the lore (which is what this thread is about), it might kinda make sense. Again, I'm not sure Haytham spent much time in Kenway mansion after meeting Shay and the Morrigan, so its inclusion is a little questionable. However, I find it extremely unlikely- borderline impossible- that Haytham spent any time in London after meeting Connor. I don't think he'd have left the front lines in the midst of the Revolution, and even if so I don't think his participation in the storyline would even allow him the time he'd need to make the voyage.

Correction: According to the AC wiki timeline, Connor and Haytham's alliance began on January 7th, 1778. It ended on June 17th of that same year, when Connor lashed out at Haytham and Washington when he learned of the attack on his village. It wasn't until September 16th of 1781 that Connor attacked Fort George and ended up killing Haytham- over three and a half years after their brief alliance ended.

To sail from the American colonies to Britain would've taken about 3 months round trip, assuming no other stops were made. So, I guess it's very possible that Haytham stopped in London during some time, and maybe it's detailed more in that pesky novel.
Nice catch! At least there is some substance to this.

But even then it still doesn't excuse the entirety of being snubbed. We could have had some indication that Connor traveled there out of family respect after the war. Or some dialogue from the Kenway Mansion sequence that he had done more after Haytham's passing. But nope, gotta ignore him cuz ezio fanboys, or some other bollocks.

Hans684
01-19-2016, 07:02 PM
I could be wrong (I'm terrible with titles and such) but wasn't Haytham a Grand Master? Or did that come later?

Haytham founded the Colonial Rite and become Grand Master then. Some time afterwards Shay gets his initiation and becomes a Master Templar. The rest of the Colonial Rite are just Templars. The only title before the MD Templars that is above and independent from Grand Masters are Black Crosses, which are bestowed upon the members of a branch within the Templar Order tasked with keeping the Grand Masters of the various Rites in line with the Templar Code. Deadly enforcers acting as an independent morality police force of one man, very few individuals bore the title of Black Cross across the centuries.

cawatrooper9
01-19-2016, 07:43 PM
Nice catch! At least there is some substance to this.

But even then it still doesn't excuse the entirety of being snubbed. We could have had some indication that Connor traveled there out of family respect. Or some dialogue from the Kenway Mansion sequence that he had done more after Haytham's passing. But nope, gotta ignore him cuz ezio fanboys, or some other bollocks.
Yeah, that's a good point. I'm certainly not trying to argue that Connor isn't being snubbed, because he constantly is and it's an absolute shame. I'm just trying to come up with a headcanon reason for why that would happen in the lore. :rolleyes:


Haytham founded the Colonial Rite and become Grand Master then. Some time afterwards Shay gets his initiation and becomes a Master Templar. The rest of the Colonial Rite are just Templars. The only title before the MD Templars that is above and independent from Grand Masters are Black Crosses, which are bestowed upon the members of a branch within the Templar Order tasked with keeping the Grand Masters of the various Rites in line with the Templar Code. Deadly enforcers acting as an independent morality police force of one man, very few individuals bore the title of Black Cross across the centuries.
Interesting, thanks for the clarification!

VoldR
01-20-2016, 12:47 AM
Yup here is the Jackdaw

https://56.media.tumblr.com/37747e922fe04a687bb6a787f51218cf/tumblr_inline_o0msnxuKg71qmpdv3_540.jpg

And here is the Morrigan

https://41.media.tumblr.com/117e5573cf9c205a5d47811e461efde8/tumblr_nwr11oWplU1r1ed0mo2_540.jpg

I have said it once and I will say it again: Give props to Shay, who really isn't a Kenway, but show none for Connor, who is a Kenway.....

Now excuse me while I hate on the fact that Connor gets no respect by Ubisoft.

Let's see, when Edward lives Connor wasn't born. Can't put anything in the mansion that doesn't exist.

Haytham got time for Shay's stuff as clearly he went back before going to America and setting roots there.

So no chance to put anything there of his son Connor.

Lucy Thorne took over the mansion and collect stuff too, but i doubt she's interested in Connor's stuff.

So i think it'll be more insult to the timeline if we did see Connor stuff there.

Mr.Black24
01-20-2016, 01:04 AM
Haytham got time for Shay's stuff as clearly he went back before going to America and setting roots there.

So no chance to put anything there of his son Connor.

Lucy Thorne took over the mansion and collect stuff too, but i doubt she's interested in Connor's stuff.

So i think it'll be more insult to the timeline if we did see Connor stuff there.

I'll let you read my last post before this one you are reading right here. I don't want to repeat myself.

VoldR
01-20-2016, 02:51 AM
I'll let you read my last post before this one you are reading right here. I don't want to repeat myself.
I have read it, was talking about items in the mansion.

As for mentions, still think there's not much to know for them to say.

Connor's lineage, was it public knowledge? As far as anyone might know, he's born from a native mother, father unknown. Known witnesses are all dead (Achilles, his mom & Haytham)

Few simple templars heard him claim he is son to grant entry, doesn't mean the assassins would know. All main templars are killed not that they know about it either.

If no one asks him, Connor wouldn't tell. Nor is there a reason to spread across over seas.

In Paris all we heard is "Connor's assassins" and not "son of ... " like some cultures do.

Other then young ezio i never see anyone talk about their families to those who aren't close or already know about them like Arno's father.

Mr Green is isolated in London, i don't see any reason for anyone to be talking about it for him to hear about.
The twins are young and one is too thick to bother about history and another only knows public knowledge. First thing came to her mind of a kenway is the pirate.

Then there's Desmond's people. They too was unaware about Haythem in their lineage or maybe that he's a Templar. So it may be kept off the records or word of mouth. Connor himself is not the type to talk of such things even with friends unless asked.

If anyone got any details from the books, feel free to add.

JustPlainQuirky
01-20-2016, 02:58 AM
My headcanon is that Shay modified the journal to continue pursuing his objectives while remaining unknown.

Or alternatively, Haytham wrote about his lewd moments with Shay and Connor decided to ignore it.

ERICATHERINE
01-20-2016, 03:19 AM
My headcanon is that Shay modified the journal to continue pursuing his objectives while remaining unknown.

Or alternatively, Haytham wrote about his lewd moments with Shay and Connor decided to ignore it.

I prefer the hypothesis that the story of Shay has been wrote in the book with invisible ink. ^-^

VoldR
01-20-2016, 07:14 AM
I prefer the hypothesis that the story of Shay has been wrote in the book with invisible ink. ^-^

Ya, but that means he need to write from the back of the journal or it'll be apparent of blank pages or draw pics on that page :)

Rioz22222
01-20-2016, 11:08 PM
BECAUSE writers had no plans for future shay character was made after ACIII probably in 2013