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View Full Version : put in fully functional first person view!!!



Akabaka47
01-15-2016, 10:53 AM
I played all the ghost recon games.Absolutely loved the original, GRAW was fun and didn't enjoy GRFS for its 3rd/1st person weird system.
Believe me there are thousands of us who want-
1.a first person camera(not a floating one, with full body)
2.Manual leaning(don't get me started on the 3rd person cover system. In a tactical shooter how you can see your enemies when you are hiding behind a wall??? *FACEPALM*)
If you don't want to cater to the real fans & don't want us to buy the game that's your business ubisoft.

Lolssi
01-15-2016, 12:07 PM
I feel you but unfortunately they pretty much confirmed that first person is when aiming only :(

SuperBiscotCOT
01-15-2016, 04:30 PM
Sorry for you but I have to confirm what Lolssi said. If you want you can still debate on it and ask an option to be only in FPV.

Cortexian
01-15-2016, 07:42 PM
Yeah the developers talked about the camera system and seemed to indicate that they're sticking with the third person view + first person when aiming down sight system.

Personally I'm glad, it seems like the superior system in games where getting shot actually matters. It lets you know your body positioning relative to cover that you're trying to hide behind while still giving you the accuracy and precision of a first person ADS (Aim Down Sights) view.

I'd love to see manual leaning in the game though, that would be nice. Just need to make sure that animation replication is solid for networked play if they implement it. If not we'll have endless complaints about people apparently shooting through walls and around corners without showing themselves from behind cover.

Ghost Sniper33
01-15-2016, 08:50 PM
Yeah the developers talked about the camera system and seemed to indicate that they're sticking with the third person view + first person when aiming down sight system.

Personally I'm glad, it seems like the superior system in games where getting shot actually matters. It lets you know your body positioning relative to cover that you're trying to hide behind while still giving you the accuracy and precision of a first person ADS (Aim Down Sights) view.

I'd love to see manual leaning in the game though, that would be nice. Just need to make sure that animation replication is solid for networked play if they implement it. If not we'll have endless complaints about people apparently shooting through walls and around corners without showing themselves from behind cover.
Well its not like they haven't had it before....

StealthTallyFox
01-16-2016, 06:05 AM
it seems that GRWildlands doesn't have any "go to cover by pressing whatever button" system, and it's growing on me cuz it works on R6:Siege, why not GRWildlands?

ES-Ulukai
01-16-2016, 03:50 PM
Can't talk about cover system for the moment.

GiveMeTactical
01-16-2016, 06:03 PM
Yeah, a moot point really, more so because they have spoiled us to this new fictitious system since Vegas. Knowing UBI and their " We are all about the Benjamins" motto, I doubt if we will ever see it again.

I would not mind if one of their implementations would be that on Hardcore mode... this way all those who wants to shout out to their peeps about how great they XP STATS are can do so and leave us at least a small gratification on HC mode.

Ghost Sniper33
01-16-2016, 10:01 PM
it seems that GRWildlands doesn't have any "go to cover by pressing whatever button" system, and it's growing on me cuz it works on R6:Siege, why not GRWildlands?
So you want a button to do the work for you? instead of you walking to the cover getting behind it and making sure your not sticking out of it.
I get it - eaiser to have a auto piolt button

bustinone2
01-17-2016, 03:54 AM
ive noticed something in shooters before and this ones no different i love GR and ill love this game im sure ive just noticed something when it comes to pulling a gun up to look down the sites in first person. ive noticed in evey game out there when you pull the gun up the focus is always on the gun and the background is always out of focus a little bit like youd b looking at the gun when you would be shooting it this isnt the case you focus on whats out in front of you and use the sites to line it up im not sure how you would achieve this effect but its always bothered me if anyone else thinks so id like to know if im wrong on this cause i hunt and shoot guns for fun and im never focused on the gun. if you dont shoot guns IRL just hold your hand up like your making a gun out of your hand lol and see how your eyes focus if your pretending to shoot something. ill wait :)

Cortexian
01-17-2016, 10:06 AM
ive noticed something in shooters before and this ones no different i love GR and ill love this game im sure ive just noticed something when it comes to pulling a gun up to look down the sites in first person. ive noticed in evey game out there when you pull the gun up the focus is always on the gun and the background is always out of focus a little bit like youd b looking at the gun when you would be shooting it this isnt the case you focus on whats out in front of you and use the sites to line it up im not sure how you would achieve this effect but its always bothered me if anyone else thinks so id like to know if im wrong on this cause i hunt and shoot guns for fun and im never focused on the gun. if you dont shoot guns IRL just hold your hand up like your making a gun out of your hand lol and see how your eyes focus if your pretending to shoot something. ill wait :)
You should only be focused on your target if looking through a magnified scope or red dot / holographic optic. If you're using iron sights on a rifle or a pistol you actually want to focus on your front sight post. The target SHOULD be a little blurry.

I work at a shooting range, literally shoot all kinds of guns pretty much every day and teach people how to shoot every time I work a shift.

For example, today I shot about 60 rounds through my IWI Tavor rifle, and 100 rounds through my Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm pistol. I also shot a couple magazines on a Kimber 1911 Custom 2 45 ACP, a couple 12ga 1oz shotgun slugs through a Remington 870, and a single shot of .50 BMG on a Desert Tech HTI bullpup rifle system...

StealthTallyFox
01-17-2016, 10:51 AM
we need that DT HTI/SRS in GRWildlands!!!

StealthTallyFox
01-17-2016, 10:55 AM
So you want a button to do the work for you? instead of you walking to the cover getting behind it and making sure your not sticking out of it.
I get it - eaiser to have a auto piolt button

uh... yeah, by that, I meant that the new GRWildlands will probably has no "press this button to go to cover", while I've never tried that in any 3rdPV shooter, R6Siege shows the tactical advantages of such system, which makes me kinda prefer that way instead of that "auto cover by one button" system

MajGeneralNZAC
01-17-2016, 12:03 PM
ive noticed something in shooters before and this ones no different i love GR and ill love this game im sure ive just noticed something when it comes to pulling a gun up to look down the sites in first person. ive noticed in evey game out there when you pull the gun up the focus is always on the gun and the background is always out of focus a little bit like youd b looking at the gun when you would be shooting it this isnt the case you focus on whats out in front of you and use the sites to line it up im not sure how you would achieve this effect but its always bothered me if anyone else thinks so id like to know if im wrong on this cause i hunt and shoot guns for fun and im never focused on the gun. if you dont shoot guns IRL just hold your hand up like your making a gun out of your hand lol and see how your eyes focus if your pretending to shoot something. ill wait :)

I heard from a ex Marine that was a firearms instructor that the foresight is the only thing you should be focusing on. The rear sight and the target should be blurry. I haven't shot personally yet, but this is what I have heard. And the best game for accurately depicting what it looks like when you aim down a firearm was Medal of Honor: Warfighter.

Magsmp31
01-17-2016, 11:06 PM
I just hate the cover issue in FPS. Rainbow Six solved that with the lean to a degree but for the most part there is so little situational awareness that you can't even take cover

ES-Ulukai
01-17-2016, 11:24 PM
Lean was good enough for me back when I was playing GR1.

TPV cover give you a view no has in real life and let you just wait that someone is comming and shoot, what's the pleasure in that, where is the challenge.

Put yourself against a wall and if you want to see what over there just lean.

TPV cover system for me it's what kille Vegas multiplayer and GRFS multiplayer on pc !

bustinone2
01-18-2016, 02:44 AM
You should only be focused on your target if looking through a magnified scope or red dot / holographic optic. If you're using iron sights on a rifle or a pistol you actually want to focus on your front sight post. The target SHOULD be a little blurry.

I work at a shooting range, literally shoot all kinds of guns pretty much every day and teach people how to shoot every time I work a shift.

For example, today I shot about 60 rounds through my IWI Tavor rifle, and 100 rounds through my Smith & Wesson M&P 9mm pistol. I also shot a couple magazines on a Kimber 1911 Custom 2 45 ACP, a couple 12ga 1oz shotgun slugs through a Remington 870, and a single shot of .50 BMG on a Desert Tech HTI bullpup rifle system...

i get what your saying it just seems to me that they make the gun way to prominent but i guess its just a game and they put alot of work into getting the guns looking good so they wanna show em off lol

VorTechS
01-18-2016, 12:46 PM
it seems that GRWildlands doesn't have any "go to cover by pressing whatever button" system, and it's growing on me cuz it works on R6:Siege, why not GRWildlands?

Wait, what? What cover system is there in R6 other than lean?

Lolssi
01-18-2016, 02:42 PM
I love taking cover with crouch, lean and using shooting angles. Feels like I'm actually doing something rather than that magical cover button that is everywhere these days.

Akabaka47
01-18-2016, 05:55 PM
I love taking cover with crouch, lean and using shooting angles. Feels like I'm actually doing something rather than that magical cover button that is everywhere these days.

yep me too. Had the most fun with this system in the stalker games. The firefights felt really intense. They had a thing where you could crouch even lower than regular crouch, it was a perfect system for hiding behind low cover. i even modded fallout 3 to have manual leaning too!

Cortexian
01-19-2016, 05:51 AM
I agree, I like having to peak around corners and stuff myself using leaning and camera angles and the like.

Lolssi
01-19-2016, 09:03 AM
yep me too. Had the most fun with this system in the stalker games. The firefights felt really intense. They had a thing where you could crouch even lower than regular crouch, it was a perfect system for hiding behind low cover. i even modded fallout 3 to have manual leaning too!
Stalkers were awesome. Haven't managed to play Lost Alpha yet though.
Could use that leaning in Fallout 4.

whiteout23x
01-24-2016, 09:29 PM
First person shooters suck..

SuperBiscotCOT
01-25-2016, 08:42 AM
First person shooters suck..

WOW ! Awesone explanation. Can you maybe precise why ?

UbiKeeba
01-25-2016, 04:45 PM
WOW ! Awesone explanation. Can you maybe precise why ?

Everyone has different preferences and opinions. Every single one is valid for that person. If whiteout23x doesn't like FPS, they just don't. I'd rather not get into a potential battle about specifics. lol

SuperBiscotCOT
01-25-2016, 06:46 PM
Everyone has different preferences and opinions. Every single one is valid for that person. If whiteout23x doesn't like FPS, they just don't. I'd rather not get into a potential battle about specifics. lol

Ok let's play it safe :p

ITK5
01-25-2016, 08:22 PM
TPV cover system for me it's what kille Vegas multiplayer and GRFS multiplayer on pc !


You still have much to learn my young padawan learner

Future Solider probably had the best cover system ever implemented:
Hek7ic explaining how he discovered and mastered it.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8G4g8NvJAU

Ghost Sniper33
01-25-2016, 08:37 PM
You still have much to learn my young padawan learner

Future Solider probably had the best cover system ever implemented:
Hek7ic explaining how he discovered and mastered it.


I got 3 min in and had to quite- thats not GR, at all, its a want to be GoW. its really a disgrace to the GR name

jeannaq
01-25-2016, 08:51 PM
I'm not completely against a full first person view, it it's done right. Just most of the games I have seen don't do it very well with either a really clunky peek system that is automatic when you are near an objects edge or a system that zooms out to third person when in cover. One of the best first person cover systems I have experienced in games was used in Medal of Honor, which felt much better in MoH (2010) and MoH Warfighter.

ITK5
01-25-2016, 09:25 PM
I got 3 min in and had to quite- thats not GR, at all, its a want to be GoW. its really a disgrace to the GR name


I suggest you watch the whole thing.
Just so you know Sniper, I have been playing
Ghost Recon longer than most and IMO Future Soldier
had the best movement..the game still stands up.
It doesn't feel dated like the rest of the GR games.

Ghost Sniper33
01-25-2016, 09:51 PM
I suggest you watch the whole thing.
Just so you know Sniper, I have been playing
Ghost Recon longer than most and IMO Future Soldier
had the best movement..the game still stands up.
It doesn't feel dated like the rest of the GR games.
Your right it feels like a modern day COD or GoW not like a slow moving non run and gun Ghost Recon game.

ITK5
01-25-2016, 11:13 PM
Your right it feels like a modern day COD or GoW not like a slow moving non run and gun Ghost Recon game.

If your comparing GRFS to COD...my boy you didn't play it right.
If you still have Future Soldier, im asking you as a fellow ghost to come
to our Community night this Friday and well show you some team work,
not "Run & Gun"

ES-Ulukai
01-25-2016, 11:54 PM
Both are fun but have 2 different mechanics " GR1 & GRFS".

For my part I prefer GR1 for it's gameplay.

SuperBiscotCOT
01-26-2016, 07:57 AM
I'm more GR1 like Ulukai. I don't really like the glitchy cover system. But if you prefer it, it's your opinion and I will not try to change it !

Lolssi
01-26-2016, 10:00 AM
1st time youtube video almost gave me motion sickness. That was horrible camera jumping all around.

ITK5
01-26-2016, 03:12 PM
sorry, itk, i'll buy you a beer to make up, though.

qfe

Timberley
01-27-2016, 12:45 AM
I'll admit, I can take or leave full FP views. I'm one of those heathens that plays Arma3 3rd person! Having said that, I do like first person for other games, such as R6:S. It feels more visceral to be locked into the first person in such a close quarters environment. However, the first person view in Far Cry 3 (for example) made me feel really ill, so I gave up halfway through that game. The only addition I would like for the first person ADS mechanics is to allow us to lean and maybe move a bit whilst in such a view.

Tim

Ghost Sniper33
01-27-2016, 03:46 PM
The thing about the FPV that gets me is while it looks great being we don't have our other sense in the game it makes it hard. How do you know when leaning only your head is out? or when prone that your back end isn't sticking out? Where in real life you can feel the wall on your chest or kick the wall to know, you can also bend at the waste turn your head or shoulders to look with out your whole body rotating - in the game - everything moves.

he1nz
01-27-2016, 05:06 PM
I'm on the fence a bit here. Some of the movement options from GRFS were vast improvements on previous GRs. Mantling over objects, sprinting and rolling were great additions for me and essential to keep the game current.

However, mixing those enhancements with a cover system and cover swapping button added a non realistic element to the movement. Hektik effectively worked out how to combine controller button options so that the character skipped animation sequences and moved to the next one before the previous one had finished. I think this was incredibly innovative of him and showed his skill. Particular kudos goes to him for making and sharing videos to give everyone the benefit of learning the moves.

However, at the end of the day, the carefully worked motion capture recordings that the Devs carried out with special forces teams to add realism (which really worked!) was lessened by the animation effect and character movement pioneered by Hektik. Your character effectively slips through time and space and generally defies the laws of physics. As much as I admire hektiks achievement, I think the moves do amount to exploits and do have their roots in the wall bouncing roadie running chaos that was GoW multiplayer.

Sorry, ITK, I'll buy you a beer to make up, though.

Hmmmm.. This sounds like a simple control exploit! And Im amazed that you admire that. This exploit sounds just like that annoying LB'ing we had to deal with in clanmatches in GR2/Summit Strike.. and even both graws I think.
I asuming he's hard to hit while doing it.. so that sounds like a simple exploit. What is wrong with playing a game as it is..!? People that has to resort to exploits/glitches should take a long look in the mirror, and ask themselves why do they play video games!? Im sorry if this comes across as negative bs.. Ive just wasted to many hours in clanmatches because of people that couldnt play within the rules set, and use their common sense.

SuperBiscotCOT
01-27-2016, 10:40 PM
I don't look at it as a cheat and I can play a game accepting that but I just prefer to don't have this sort of little teleportation.
It's realy hard to master this style of play but also an abusive use of this can be bad.

he1nz
01-28-2016, 06:42 AM
Well.. if the community adaps a certain movement exploit it's all ok then..?
I have some old ghost recon buddies that played a lot of Future Soldier, and they simply left the room when playing against players that moved like that. So I think theres a fair chance that stuff like that helps to reduce the player base, and slowly kill a games PvP scene.

GiveMeTactical
01-29-2016, 04:00 AM
GRAW tried to copy the smooth peek of tge real GR games and failed miserably... and don't get me started on the walking pace, my dead gradma walks faster lol.

Aside for those two things i did enjoy them more than running in tpv and or using outer body experiences while i am in cover.

Perhaps i would be ok with tpv as long as they would let me run in fpv... tpv running seems so clunky it makes me nauseous.

StealthTallyFox
01-29-2016, 06:30 PM
sadly, it has been shown in the reveal that sprint is in TPV

UbiKeeba
01-29-2016, 07:26 PM
Wildlands gives you the opportunity to immerse yourself in the Bolivian culture and to experience top immersive gameplay, which we believe is made possible thanks to our hybrid camera system where exploration is done in Third Person and action with the Iron Sight.

GiveMeTactical
01-30-2016, 12:48 AM
I much rather and prefer to buy a book that tells me about the Bolivian culture. My gripe is that once you have finish the first campaign run in Normal mode (as an example) and since there is no changes on where the enemies are, the second run in Hardcore mode has plenty of gaps where you know you can run from point a to b and running like if you are drunk out of your skull because of TPV. If they can have a hybrid camera why can't I have the option to disable it when I am running or have the option to run in FPS like any normal person does?

l3ushwacker
01-30-2016, 11:22 PM
If they must do 3rd person, the 3rd person/1st person aiming is the best way to do it. It more immersive than 3rd person with an aiming icon. Still, 1st person is the most immersive of all and my personal preference, especially in tactical gaming.

Lolssi
02-02-2016, 12:49 PM
Wildlands gives you the opportunity to immerse yourself in the Bolivian culture and to experience top immersive gameplay, which we believe is made possible thanks to our hybrid camera system where exploration is done in Third Person and action with the Iron Sight.
Unfortunately I find it hard to me immersed when for example trying to look things on the table and being 3 metres away. Well maybe I can ironsight them :D

GiveMeTactical
02-04-2016, 03:54 AM
top immerse gameplay... classic marketing words!

running while watching your back and not really knowing where you are going... kinda hard to be immersed. But i understand where sales comes to play

Ghost Sniper33
02-04-2016, 04:22 PM
top immerse gameplay... classic marketing words!

running while watching your back and not really knowing where you are going... kinda hard to be immersed. But i understand where sales comes to play
or having no perferial vision and not knowing if your foot is stick out from behind a wall when prone and having ) body awareness.

Or having to rotate your whole body to look to the sides vs jsut turning your head and keeping your gun pointed a different way then your looking

Lolssi
02-05-2016, 11:58 AM
or having no perferial vision and not knowing if your foot is stick out from behind a wall when prone and having ) body awareness.

Or having to rotate your whole body to look to the sides vs jsut turning your head and keeping your gun pointed a different way then your looking
Lean keys man, lean keys.

Akabaka47
02-05-2016, 01:35 PM
or having no perferial vision and not knowing if your foot is stick out from behind a wall when prone and having ) body awareness.

Or having to rotate your whole body to look to the sides vs jsut turning your head and keeping your gun pointed a different way then your looking

You don't have to rotate your whole body in games like arma 3,you can hold alt to look around.

Ghost Sniper33
02-05-2016, 03:43 PM
You don't have to rotate your whole body in games like arma 3,you can hold alt to look around.
Thats the only game I've seen, and when you do that in FPV you also loos your perferial vision for what you were holding your "scope" on.

StealthTallyFox
02-10-2016, 02:12 PM
Most FPS didn't do ARMA type lean, or head control, they are just another skin from CoD, for sci-fi shooter like Halo or Destiny, I get it, for other more realistic shooters? no, so TPS offer a bit more ARMA like awareness without being so difficult with controls, now where was that button I binded for map?

ITK5
02-10-2016, 03:20 PM
top immerse gameplay... classic marketing words!

running while watching your back and not really knowing where you are going... kinda hard to be immersed. But i understand where sales comes to play

Probably one of the most immerse games I have ever played was Metal Gear Solid V, and no chance in hell you can get that story driven visual effect
in a FPV...no way.

The Last of us was a good one too.

CR0SSlX
02-16-2016, 08:18 PM
or having no perferial vision and not knowing if your foot is stick out from behind a wall when prone and having ) body awareness.

Or having to rotate your whole body to look to the sides vs jsut turning your head and keeping your gun pointed a different way then your looking

Or looking over the walls.... it will be another GRFS or GRPhantom that "n0b0dy" play compared to others games

GiveMeTactical
02-21-2016, 11:31 PM
Probably one of the most immerse games I have ever played was Metal Gear Solid V, and no chance in hell you can get that story driven visual effect
in a FPV...no way.

Well, I will have to take your word for it because... 1) I have personally never played any of those game, way to cumbersome and acade-ish for me... 2) there isn't a FPV option to challenge what you are saying, at least not in the couple of gameplay videos I saw.

In any rate, we are not saying Do Away with TPV... we are saying give us an opton for FPS as well... more so for us Solo Campaigners that want a little more challenge and less third-eye view.

ITK5
02-22-2016, 03:46 PM
Well, I will have to take your word for it because... 1) I have personally never played any of those game, way to cumbersome and acade-ish for me... 2) there isn't a FPV option to challenge what you are saying, at least not in the couple of gameplay videos I saw.

In any rate, we are not saying Do Away with TPV... we are saying give us an opton for FPS as well... more so for us Solo Campaigners that want a little more challenge and less third-eye view.

Ok kool, i gotcha, you could always scope in through the whole game (FPV) :p haha joking bro.

I like the whole hybrid aiming system they are using in Wildlands
Only other game that I know of that has the Scope In FPS (Hybrid) is Metal Gear Solid V.

ES-Ulukai
02-22-2016, 06:09 PM
I would like that option too to active or deactive with a keyboard button or directly in the options menu.

HitMan00
02-22-2016, 07:46 PM
OOO HELL NO, very bad idea.

ITK5
02-22-2016, 08:13 PM
I would like that option too to active or deactive with a keyboard button or directly in the options menu.

If you get to edit your skins, how would you ever get to admire your Belgium Military Camo in FPV??
I sure in the hell don't want to look at it.

meathead_79
02-26-2016, 02:17 AM
I played all the ghost recon games.Absolutely loved the original, GRAW was fun and didn't enjoy GRFS for its 3rd/1st person weird system.
Believe me there are thousands of us who want-
1.a first person camera(not a floating one, with full body)
2.Manual leaning(don't get me started on the 3rd person cover system. In a tactical shooter how you can see your enemies when you are hiding behind a wall??? *FACEPALM*)
If you don't want to cater to the real fans & don't want us to buy the game that's your business ubisoft.

You do realize that all GR games have been 3rd person, right?

he1nz
02-26-2016, 06:40 AM
You do realize that all GR games have been 3rd person, right?

On consoles the first three was first person only.. they didnt introduce the 3rd'P view till in ghost recon 2! And it was only FS that went 3rd'P only.

he1nz
02-26-2016, 07:12 AM
^^^
Correction: the first two was first person only..
Ghost Recon, and
Ghost Recon Island Thunder

StealthTallyFox
02-27-2016, 06:17 AM
then I had problems with my GRAW on original XBOX, it's first person and I don't like it

ES-Ulukai
02-27-2016, 02:52 PM
Hell yeah you will !!! http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20130918.419/images/smilies/biggrin.png

The best thing is to give the choice, GR1 and add-ons were FPV, GR2 didn't comes out on pc, GRAW 1 & 2 pc were FPV, the TPV came on pc with GRFS.

The pc community that has allways had GR in FPV want's it in FPV, GRFS was deserted on pc for many reasons but this one of them.

Giving the possibility to choose guaranty sells.

GiveMeTactical
02-27-2016, 07:35 PM
That is exactly my grief, the arcade-ish themes are getting way out of hand. Don't get me wrong, even I tend not to want to play a game when they get to hard because I am so used having all these gadgets that make me not want to think with my own brain. Being said that, I do hate it with a passion when I need to run and I am zig-zagging all over the place because I can't run straight when using TPV.

Options is key, just like letting me play the game how I want to and not rush me into scripted scenarios just to make me do a challenge to get a weapon that I may or may not want. Or I do a challenge to get a sniper rifle and the following maps are pure CQB maps so I can't really use it. I do hope that if there are sniper rifles in WL that we will be able to use them as sniper rifles and not assault weapons.

Mattactic
02-28-2016, 05:49 AM
I do hope that if there are sniper rifles in WL that we will be able to use them as sniper rifles and not assault weapons.

Oooooo.. Maybe a few missions where you have to outsmart some cartel sniper teams(if there's such thing). Carlos Hathcock style!! I'd go nutty. 👍

SuperBiscotCOT
02-29-2016, 07:14 PM
Sniper rifles were playable in Paris and some of the few memebers of the community who were at the studio will say you that Ulukai saved them a couple of times snipping ennemies ;)

But you can also see it in the reaveal trailer.

GiveMeTactical
03-05-2016, 04:06 PM
I don't remember seeing any of that in the trailer but perhaps I was looking at a different trailer?

Flaw3dGenius23
03-06-2016, 03:53 AM
No need for 1st person view, Ghosts got much better when it turned to 3rd person!

SCAgent95
03-06-2016, 12:49 PM
I am hoping for bullet drop effects when sniping.

I personally don't care about view, i would like to have both though like arma,hidden&dangerous..
That said if i had to choose i would say FPV just because the original game was like that.

Malarki83
03-06-2016, 02:18 PM
You do realize that all GR games have been 3rd person, right?

You do realize that GR1, GRAW1+2 PC had 1st Person, right?


No need for 1st person view, Ghosts got much better when it turned to 3rd person!

Maybe for you, not for me and others.

GiveMeTactical
03-06-2016, 03:43 PM
No need for 1st person view, Ghosts got much better when it turned to 3rd person!

WOW... OK, thank God you came alone and explain it ALL. Devs, please... disregard our begging for FPV as we now know that the Ghost got much better when it turned 3rd person!

Akabaka47
03-07-2016, 03:11 PM
No need for 1st person view, Ghosts got much better when it turned to 3rd person!

For me, it turned into an arcade game where you press a button to get into cover,wait for AI to pop out their head, shoot them,rinse and repeat.
i remember in GR1 i hid in prone position for ~10 minutes waiting for the AI to come to me because all my teammates were dead( i get how it might seem boring to some) .That **** was intense lol

B_616e6f6e
03-08-2016, 05:42 PM
I'm a long time fan of the Ghost Recon series, GR1 (with Heroes Unleashed) probably being my all time favorite game. I made this account just to play GR Phantoms (disappointed:() and I can't seem to edit my screen name. Weird. Now that I've got my introduction out of the way...

I very much prefer immersive 1st person view in shooters, but I have to admit GRFS had some of the best animations in any shooter I've ever played. It just looks so badass when the character bursts into running... Anyway. I've gotten the idea that TPV is pretty much here to stay, so instead of *****ing about how Ubisoft has smeared smelly turd all over the tactical shooter-ness of the GR-series, I have a suggestion to make.

The biggest problem most gamers have (from what I've gathered) with TPV in shooters is that the player can peek around corners without the danger of getting shot/spotted. What if the camera was moved closer to the character in order to prevent looking around corners without the character's head peeking around the corner? This could easily be done when the player is in "sticky cover" via the cover system but if the player was standing next to the wall it might be easily circumvented. Idk, just my 2 cents. Whatever course the devs decide to take, I hope they'll try to work on the issues TPV has and at least consider adding FPV at least on PC.

Also, there was some discussion about realistic character movement earlier on the thread so I might as well touch on that. If the devs decide to stick with GRFS' fluid movement mechanics, I hope/suggest they'd add weight/mass to the character's movement. What I mean is that turning the direction of movement should be slower. I'm actually not sure if they already did this in the game and hec7ic simply exploited the rolling function... Whatever the cause, that's something that should (and I bet it is) be worked on.


Edit.

If you submit a ticket to our awesome support team (http://support.ubi.com), they may be able to help you change your user name.
Will do.Thanks.

UbiKeeba
03-08-2016, 05:47 PM
I'm a long time fan of the Ghost Recon series, GR1 (with Heroes Unleashed) probably being my all time favorite game. I made this account just to play GR Phantoms (disappointed:() and I can't seem to edit my screen name. Weird. Now that I've got my introduction out of the way...


If you submit a ticket to our awesome support team (http://support.ubi.com), they may be able to help you change your user name.

StealthTallyFox
03-09-2016, 06:09 AM
wait, what about if a person go to TPV, instead of moving the camera closer to the player's character, make everything 3 meters away after the cover is blurred, enough to make you have difficulties with target acquisition at longer ranges, but still maintain that "peeking" feel, and bring back blind firing from cover, because suppressing fire!

B_616e6f6e
03-09-2016, 04:05 PM
wait, what about if a person go to TPV, instead of moving the camera closer to the player's character, make everything 3 meters away after the cover is blurred, enough to make you have difficulties with target acquisition at longer ranges, but still maintain that "peeking" feel, and bring back blind firing from cover, because suppressing fire!

The player could still see without the opposition seeing him and vice versa.

he1nz
03-10-2016, 03:36 PM
No need for 1st person view, Ghosts got much better when it turned to 3rd person!

No it didn't.. It changed from a great tactical team shooter, to a giant camping fest!
But we all have our individual opinions on that subject 😉

StealthTallyFox
03-10-2016, 06:15 PM
No it didn't.. It changed from a great tactical team shooter, to a giant camping fest!
But we all have our individual opinions on that subject ��

true, opinions does kinda matter, besides, I do found myself fond of "camping" as that's most real life soldier is doing, "camped" in one spot and suppress the enemy before moving on, however, I do expect the AI getting smart like if in certain time you don't go in and get the objective/HVT, that said objective can be carried away by the enemy which makes you to chase them, forcing you to be mobile and not just camping

B_616e6f6e
03-10-2016, 07:36 PM
true, opinions does kinda matter, besides, I do found myself fond of "camping" as that's most real life soldier is doing, "camped" in one spot and suppress the enemy before moving on, however, I do expect the AI getting smart like if in certain time you don't go in and get the objective/HVT, that said objective can be carried away by the enemy which makes you to chase them, forcing you to be mobile and not just camping

In real life soldiers have to expose themselves in order to see the enemy...
(Unless they use devices of some sort but that's an another discussion.)

Gh0stxSinghxx
03-10-2016, 11:18 PM
I played all the ghost recon games.Absolutely loved the original, GRAW was fun and didn't enjoy GRFS for its 3rd/1st person weird system.
Believe me there are thousands of us who want-
1.a first person camera(not a floating one, with full body)
2.Manual leaning(don't get me started on the 3rd person cover system. In a tactical shooter how you can see your enemies when you are hiding behind a wall??? *FACEPALM*)
If you don't want to cater to the real fans & don't want us to buy the game that's your business ubisoft.

I don't like first person shooters! Stop thinking copy call of duty, socom, GOW and etc. GRAW 3rd person is AWESOME!!!

B_616e6f6e
03-11-2016, 06:43 PM
I don't like first person shooters! Stop thinking copy call of duty, socom, GOW and etc. GRAW 3rd person is AWESOME!!!

What if I'm thinking copy of the original Ghost Recon? R6 Raven Shield? Flashpoint/ArmA series?

3rd person is for cheaters.

Gh0stxSinghxx
03-11-2016, 07:30 PM
What if I'm thinking copy of the original Ghost Recon? R6 Raven Shield? Flashpoint/ArmA series?

3rd person is for cheaters.

Ghost recon keep auto 3rd person always. I run on play my life for 3rd person make me happy. 3rd person not all R6, Flashpoint. Yes 3rd person is cheaters and also 1st person is for cheater too.

B_616e6f6e
03-12-2016, 01:39 PM
Not really, it is just a preference and there are a lot of factors that influence which view suits a game. In real life soldiers use many ways to observe their enemies without being seen, viewing through small apertures and from behind camouflage. This is hard to replicate in first person and in Ghost Recon, seeing without being seen is central to the gameplay.

I see what you mean but there's a difference between gaining perfect overview of the battlefield from blissful safety and peeking from a hole in a wall. I guess you guys just don't understand how intense it gets when you have to risk revealing yourself in order to see the enemy. Dumbed down arcade shooting is all it is these days. In GRFS they at least added the suppression effect when you're sticking™ to standard-sized conveniently-placed pieces of cover™.

I hope the devs continue to tweak the system to make it harder to gain the advantage.

B_616e6f6e
03-12-2016, 02:06 PM
I guess you missed the points I made about how Rainbow would be rubbish with third person. I have well over 100 hours played, compete on the ladders and I'm a Platinum rank. I do understand intense, trust me, and I love that game. GR in third person also got that intense in the years I competed on that, and third person enhanced it because of the maps and gameplay.

I have also played CoD on ladders, although I don't much like it, I'll be honest, and have hundreds of hours on the Battlefield series. I know how first person plays.

Could you expand on how it enhances the gameplay?

I would like to point out that I'm not trying to convince the devs to make this game FPV because it's pretty clear GRWL is going to be a 3rd person shooter. I'm simply wondering why anyone would choose TPV over FPV for a shooter...

DoubleBogey
03-12-2016, 11:50 PM
How can you possibly call a game tactical if you can see around/over objects. It saddens and disgusts me what has been done to this great series.

3rd person adds zero tactical gameplay, it just makes it ******ed. Even the cod games haven't gone to this level of noobishness.

DoubleBogey
03-13-2016, 08:00 AM
The gameplay experience for OGR and GRIT was amazing. Graw came around and turned the game into a corner camping, rock camping borefest. At the time they were trying to swoon the socom crowd, and the GR fans paid the price. Siege game mode was absolutely ruined. Everyone was forced to play this boring strategy of positioning yourself on defense so you could watch areas while completely hidden from the offense. Clan matches became borefests and my clan gradually stopped playing because of this. Our group went from 12+ guys playing 5+ hours every night on GR and GRIT to a few of us playing casually.

They absolutely crapped all over the die hard fans who championed the game. The didn't even have a server option forcing 1st person. The clueless developers even told people to play in 1st person if they preferred that. However you could never be competeive in 1st person against 3rd person players. You'd get smashed every time.


They could have been bigger than COD, halo and battlefield if they didn't do that. The arcade shooters didnt go 3rd person, yet a "tactical" game does? Just ridiculous and stupid. Definitely the most disappointing thing that's ever happened in my gaming history. How someone could turn such a great and deep game into this garbage is a crime.

DoubleBogey
03-13-2016, 08:05 AM
And I did have high hopes with rainbow six siege going back to 100% 1st person, just wish there developers of ghost recon would wake up as well.

B_616e6f6e
03-13-2016, 10:24 AM
The gameplay experience for OGR and GRIT was amazing. Graw came around and turned the game into a corner camping, rock camping borefest. At the time they were trying to swoon the socom crowd, and the GR fans paid the price. Siege game mode was absolutely ruined. Everyone was forced to play this boring strategy of positioning yourself on defense so you could watch areas while completely hidden from the offense. Clan matches became borefests and my clan gradually stopped playing because of this. Our group went from 12+ guys playing 5+ hours every night on GR and GRIT to a few of us playing casually.

They absolutely crapped all over the die hard fans who championed the game. The didn't even have a server option forcing 1st person. The clueless developers even told people to play in 1st person if they preferred that. However you could never be competeive in 1st person against 3rd person players. You'd get smashed every time.


They could have been bigger than COD, halo and battlefield if they didn't do that. The arcade shooters didnt go 3rd person, yet a "tactical" game does? Just ridiculous and stupid. Definitely the most disappointing thing that's ever happened in my gaming history. How someone could turn such a great and deep game into this garbage is a crime.

You said it best.

EDIT:

Another point; Is anyone else bothered by those standard-sized, conveniently placed pieces of cover that are littered all over TPS maps? IMO, game designers would be better off designing compounds and other places based on real life instead of TPS/balancing gameplay. This coming from a non-competitive background.

guest-iJb2e6zl
03-13-2016, 04:22 PM
Not true. The host could force the option on the view to restrict it to one or the other or allow both. After requests on the forum the chosen view was even added to the search parameters so you could choose first person only rooms. You could also select it as an option on gaming ladders for clan matches.

The real reason first person died out was because the GR community on console simply moved on and adapted to third person. GR2 and Summit Strike are when the multiplayer really took off and there were a few but not many lobbies that forced first person and by GRAW - which allowed you to force first person maps that were in OGR and GRIT - it was extremely rare to find one. The clan scene didn't suffer at all as the option for first person was there but ignored.

Sorry, but the developers catered for the option, up until GRFS, and it wasn't the developers that killed it, the players did. Although I don't accept your judgemental view of my preference, however, I do think first person should be reintroduced as an option. I'm all for choice and this does boil down to preference. There isn't any need to trash one option over the other.

I believe it was the way the devs treated the tactical shooter community regarding the FPV/TPV argument that led to the bitterness some of the OGR fans have towards the people who favor TPV. But yes, options are good.

DoubleBogey
03-13-2016, 05:32 PM
Not true. The host could force the option on the view to restrict it to one or the other or allow both. After requests on the forum the chosen view was even added to the search parameters so you could choose first person only rooms. You could also select it as an option on gaming ladders for clan matches.

The real reason first person died out was because the GR community on console simply moved on and adapted to third person. GR2 and Summit Strike are when the multiplayer really took off and there were a few but not many lobbies that forced first person and by GRAW - which allowed you to force first person maps that were in OGR and GRIT - it was extremely rare to find one. The clan scene didn't suffer at all as the option for first person was there but ignored.

Sorry, but the developers catered for the option, up until GRFS, and it wasn't the developers that killed it, the players did. Although I don't accept your judgemental view of my preference, however, I do think first person should be reintroduced as an option. I'm all for choice and this does boil down to preference. There isn't any need to trash one option over the other.

They may have made the change, but it must have been months later and way too late. You've played games long enough to know that once a noob mechanic is in place, a large base of the casual or bad players will resist changing.


The 3rd person view has turned the series into a clownish arcade shooter. I have to question anyone's intelligence that can say being able to look around corners and over objects being completely safe is tactical at all. It's embarrassing and is a magnet to bad players and those who don't know better. It certainly isn't to be taken seriously, it's a joke.


The view fits well in a co-op game like the division, but not in a true PvP environment. Gears of war works too as it fits the Arcady atmosphere.


If this 3rd person was so wanted, why haven't halo and COD jumped on it. It certainly would have fit the more arcady feel, but those developers had brains. They knew that changing is game breaking on a ridiculous level.


Let me sit behind a rock and be able to see the entire map all safe and sound. No sniper can hit me, if I see an explosive coming, I have all the time in the world to move. Doesn't that sound ridiculously non tactical?


OGR and GRIT still rank as my favorite games of all time, I LOVED them. If they re-released them today with matchmaking built in, I would happily fork over my cash for it. I'm still after all these years shocked and appalled at what these morons did to this series.

GiveMeTactical
03-13-2016, 07:23 PM
Commercially speaking, I see no end to TPV any time soon, it is the most efficient way to bring the casual gamer into the fold, easy way to view everything, feel safe into your surroundings and still come out looking sharp to your peeps with those 40/30 kills ratios..

Being said that, and again I say, options is the way to go. If UBI would give the devs enough time to code a good Hardcode Mode, we could all enjoy a good game, more so with its potential to be the best game ever. but alas, I am not holding my breath, more so because of what history has taught us when it comes to UBI and their way of churning mediocre (read with full potential) broken or unfonished games

Oh and just in case I am not being clear here... I am only talking about the Campaign as I know nothing nor care to know anything about MP.

DoubleBogey
03-13-2016, 08:14 PM
You can question my intelligence and insult the Devs intelligence by calling them morons if you like but you're missing the point. The overall gameplay settings and map design and the player behaviour these induce make a game tactical or not.

It's tactical to stand behind a rock? I'm sure the special forces are using this game for training purposes.


Why do you think the ghost recon franchise hasn't flourished? It was around before COD, halo, battlefield. Because they turned it into a joke. There is a healthy population playing battlefield 4 right now and the game has been out over 2 years.


Ghost recon now has no depth because of the 3rd person. It's strictly a game for the casual noobs. I guess they sell games to the noobs by calling it tactical, buts that's the most ironic description I've ever seen any game claim. It's so sad because there is so much potential there. They just throw it out the window and wonder why the player population drops after a couple of months after release.


What's the last ghost recon game that had any longevity? The last first person version.

Timberley
03-14-2016, 03:50 AM
Well, I'll be honest here, I play Arma3 in TPV with FPV for aiming. Why? Because it gives me a more realistic FoV than FPV. Would you say Arma is a 'casual noob' shooter?

It is tactical to stand behind a rock; it gives you concealment from enemy view and cover from direct attack. One of the first lessons of cam and concealment we learned in the army.

The reason BF is still going is because the devs continuously put out new content, the player base is engaged because they want to get their new shinies, and the game itself is fun and rewarding, with just enough tactical depth to make it accessible to the casual gamer, whilst ensuring that those who play in a tactical manner are rewarded for their actions. The FPV has little to do with it.

In my opinion, GRFS wasn't really as great of a success as, say, OGR, because it took away the minimalist, hardcore nature of the HUD and the shooting mechanics and replaced them with a regenerating health, too many gadgets model that didn't give the same feeling in combat, not because it was TPV.

Tim

DoubleBogey
03-14-2016, 04:36 AM
Gears of war, star wars battlefront and ghost recon. All 3rd person. Which of those shouldn't be in the same category as the others.

For a game that claims to be tactical and realistic, the gameplay is anything but. All the other developers understand that you can't have a serious game with 3rd person. It's a complete joke.


Would you play paintball with everyone having a camera 10 feet above their head and vr googles? You would say that's ******ed. Why in the world would you put that kind of stupidity in a "serious" shooter?

he1nz
03-14-2016, 06:46 PM
They may have made the change, but it must have been months later and way too late. You've played games long enough to know that once a noob mechanic is in place, a large base of the casual or bad players will resist changing.


The 3rd person view has turned the series into a clownish arcade shooter. I have to question anyone's intelligence that can say being able to look around corners and over objects being completely safe is tactical at all. It's embarrassing and is a magnet to bad players and those who don't know better. It certainly isn't to be taken seriously, it's a joke.


The view fits well in a co-op game like the division, but not in a true PvP environment. Gears of war works too as it fits the Arcady atmosphere.


If this 3rd person was so wanted, why haven't halo and COD jumped on it. It certainly would have fit the more arcady feel, but those developers had brains. They knew that changing is game breaking on a ridiculous level.


Let me sit behind a rock and be able to see the entire map all safe and sound. No sniper can hit me, if I see an explosive coming, I have all the time in the world to move. Doesn't that sound ridiculously non tactical?


OGR and GRIT still rank as my favorite games of all time, I LOVED them. If they re-released them today with matchmaking built in, I would happily fork over my cash for it. I'm still after all these years shocked and appalled at what these morons did to this series.

Maybe you should try to post something constructive in here, in sted of throwing insults in every direction..?

StealthTallyFox
03-15-2016, 10:39 AM
tbh imho, I think 3rd person actually fear those kiddie FPS gamers, because they get so much information than before they can't process it, all my friends fear the new GRW of it's promise of tactical gameplay, all they wanted to be able to run around with LMG and shoot everybody down, which of course I say that's not gonna happen, they also tried doing that in GRFS and protested that the game is too hard for them(lol), so I say just let us have 3rd person, it already makes those kiddies go mad around with fear, FPS will only make them even madder

mezzatron
07-04-2016, 09:05 PM
Since we have no snap to cover mechanic announced I don't see why this option should be left out.
Give the option to play in FPS like the original GR.

Sp--pyBrown
07-06-2016, 03:52 PM
Since we have no snap to cover mechanic announced I don't see why this option should be left out.
Give the option to play in FPS like the original GR.

Seconded.

ES-Ulukai
07-06-2016, 04:53 PM
The devs already stated in a interview that the game will be in hybrid view. We did ask for a option in the menu to active TPV, FPV or Hybrid but I don't think it gonna happend cause even if the devs would like to please everyone, they have they vision of the game.

The game is not finished yet so it could change but I don't see that feature added.

Wrathgor
07-06-2016, 05:18 PM
There are plenty of FPS games,so PLEASE do not do this. I hate FPS games and lover of Third person shooter games. Every third person shooter game have threads like that "FPS CAM OR I WONT PLAY" etc. So, leave the game and dont play.

ES-Ulukai
07-06-2016, 05:32 PM
You need to understand that for GR veterans, the Ghost Recon serie was originaly FPS and mainly on pc till GRFS.

So a option that allow the 3 views in the option menu would make everyone happy for sure.

But the hybrid is really good.

mezzatron
07-07-2016, 02:27 PM
Dear Ulukai,

Can you ask the Devs to release some more information about certain things such as;

- Information on PvP modes;
- Clear up all the confusion about certain game mechanics eg. Snap to Cover, Character customization, Weapon customization etc.
- What is the character progression like?
- Their plans for the end game - What will make players want to log-in every day to play some more?
Eg. Once the story mode is finished is the game going to collect dust on the shelf?

They are so quiet and people may start losing interest in the title.

UbiKeeba
07-07-2016, 02:39 PM
Dear Ulukai,

Can you ask the Devs to release some more information about certain things such as;

- Information on PvP modes;
- Clear up all the confusion about certain game mechanics eg. Snap to Cover, Character customization, Weapon customization etc.
- What is the character progression like?
- Their plans for the end game - What will make players want to log-in every day to play some more?
Eg. Once the story mode is finished is the game going to collect dust on the shelf?

They are so quiet and people may start losing interest in the title.

I don't believe we've been quiet. We've been answering questions as we've been able to. There isn't anything to announce about PVP at this time. There will be full and rich character customization, the Gunsmith is returning, and we will talk about end game at another time.

Hopefully this puts your mind at ease about at least some things. :)

ES-Ulukai
07-07-2016, 05:40 PM
As Keeba said, the devs have talked plenty a little before the E3, while the E3 and a little after, if you look around different interviews on the net you'll find good infos.

Now the devs can't talk about some features because the game is still in developpement and those features can change before release but be sure that they gonna talk about it before release.

Next month it's the GamesCom in Germany so expect some news as well.

mezzatron
07-08-2016, 07:02 AM
Next month it's the GamesCom in Germany so expect some news as well.

Ahh, nice one! Can't wait :) :)
Thanks Keeba & Ulukai.

GhostLeader-
07-08-2016, 07:47 AM
IMO you are not a real Ghost Reconer unless you have played the original GR from 2002.

Sp--pyBrown
07-08-2016, 09:08 AM
IMO you are not a real Ghost Reconer unless you have played the original GR from 2002.

Erm.... 2001... ;)

ES-Ulukai
07-08-2016, 12:11 PM
2001 Yeah 15 years ago it doesn't make us younger :D

DanHibikiFanXM
07-08-2016, 01:25 PM
Would people find it acceptable if they were to just have the classic first person view (just an aiming reticule/HUD - no weapon) as an option?

ES-Ulukai
07-08-2016, 02:30 PM
I'm use to see the weapon but why not that option and call it "OSV" Old School View hahahah

Crossiix
07-08-2016, 10:53 PM
Ubisoft destroy GR on PC when they converted it to a TPS... I personanally wont buy the game or any game that is TPS.

Lets hope they will listen to the community and bring atleast the option to play full FPS, or make the PC version FPS and Console version TPS as they DID in GRAW2. and everyone will be happy!

Cheers

Cortexian
07-08-2016, 11:11 PM
You're missing out on a ton of fantastic games if you don't play third person view games. Mass Effect series comes to mind.

AI BLUEFOX
07-08-2016, 11:21 PM
Ubisoft destroy GR on PC when they converted it to a TPS... I personanally wont buy the game or any game that is TPS.

Lets hope they will listen to the community and bring atleast the option to play full FPS, or make the PC version FPS and Console version TPS as they DID in GRAW2. and everyone will be happy!

Cheers

Well, everyone except the console players that prefer first person and the PC players that prefer third I guess.

Mag-Z
07-09-2016, 10:46 AM
Why can't they simply give us a FP camera viewpoint? GTA V did it. Sure it was a little clunky at times, but the option was there and used by many.

GiveMeTactical
07-09-2016, 06:29 PM
You're missing out on a ton of fantastic games if you don't play third person view games. Mass Effect series comes to mind.

Only if you like RPGs, if not... not really

I rather un-dust an older game that I haven't played in a while than play a potential fun game with quirky movements just because I want to play something new.

But again, that's just my opinion since I also believe that having fun is a state of mind.


They could give us the option to use FPS for those of us that want it but you must remember, nobody send that feedback to them in time or before they were discussing on whether do TPS, FPS or hybrid so you are too late but... perhaps for the next one you will get your wish? :D

ES-Ulukai
07-09-2016, 07:23 PM
The last of us and Uncharted serie are great TPS.

As I said they have a certain vision of the game, I tried the hybryd and it's fun but I'd like to see those options too.

Now if multiplayer there is, it's sure it will be only one view or it will give a advantange to other if you can choose the view you want.

Cortexian
07-10-2016, 07:10 AM
The new Tomb Raider series is great, as are the Batman Arkham and Assassin's Creed franchises... Definitely more to third person gaming than RPGs!

Mag-Z
07-10-2016, 08:54 PM
The new Tomb Raider series is great, as are the Batman Arkham and Assassin's Creed franchises... Definitely more to third person gaming than RPGs!
While I agree that AC and the Bat games were great fun, Tomb Raider was not. In fact I think the new series is utter, no skill required, garbage.

xDarkMACx
07-10-2016, 11:21 PM
MGS5 comes to mind as one of the best TPV shooters.

Cortexian
07-11-2016, 08:07 AM
While I agree that AC and the Bat games were great fun, Tomb Raider was not. In fact I think the new series is utter, no skill required, garbage.

It's definitely quite difficult when the difficulty setting is set appropriately. I had to redo a few parts before I could get them finished on the harder difficulties.

GhostLeader-
07-11-2016, 11:22 PM
Erm.... 2001... ;)
I stand corrected :)