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View Full Version : 109G2 is not all that "Uber"



mortoma
04-06-2004, 09:09 AM
I flew 4 109s against Spitfires in QMB yesterday, the F2, F4, G2 and G6(early) as an experiment. I did way better with the F2 with it's slower speed and weaker cannon than the other 3 combined!! The G2 was not all that deadly in my book, except if I used climbing a lot to set myself up first. And even then it was not a huge advantage. It sure was not bad either though, not by a long shot. But if I did not climb for an advantage and stayed at the same altitude ( for a pure TnB fight ) as the ace AI bandit, I did the best in the F2. The F2 handles so much more nicely than the rest. The F4 I would think should feel more like the F2, but it fought more like the G6 than anything else!! Did they screw up the F4 lately? In pure TnB, my preference was in this order:
1.) 109F2
2.) 109G2
3.) 109F4
4.) 109G6 ( Trying to TnB in this G6 was possible, but painful. Talk about having to fly on the edge of the envelope!! In any earlier patch of FB or IL2, it would have been nearly impossible though. G6 is very much improved. )

mortoma
04-06-2004, 09:09 AM
I flew 4 109s against Spitfires in QMB yesterday, the F2, F4, G2 and G6(early) as an experiment. I did way better with the F2 with it's slower speed and weaker cannon than the other 3 combined!! The G2 was not all that deadly in my book, except if I used climbing a lot to set myself up first. And even then it was not a huge advantage. It sure was not bad either though, not by a long shot. But if I did not climb for an advantage and stayed at the same altitude ( for a pure TnB fight ) as the ace AI bandit, I did the best in the F2. The F2 handles so much more nicely than the rest. The F4 I would think should feel more like the F2, but it fought more like the G6 than anything else!! Did they screw up the F4 lately? In pure TnB, my preference was in this order:
1.) 109F2
2.) 109G2
3.) 109F4
4.) 109G6 ( Trying to TnB in this G6 was possible, but painful. Talk about having to fly on the edge of the envelope!! In any earlier patch of FB or IL2, it would have been nearly impossible though. G6 is very much improved. )

mortoma
04-06-2004, 09:16 AM
To add further, I felt the F2 was like a brain surgeons scapel. I could aim it's nose so precisely it was easy to get hits on the Spitfires engine, within 1 minute of fighting in most cases.
Spits roast really nicely if you hit their engine!!

Lunix
04-06-2004, 09:29 AM
As with anything you have to adjust your tactics to the situation, plane and pilot you are up against. If you can get altitude with ease over someone the battle should have been yours. You are right though I wouldnt TnB against a spit with a G2 either. Uber != TnB performance. The fact that the G2 always has options of either E, BnZ or TnB fighting with great effect against almost any other aircraft is what makes it so darn uber IMHO.

http://members.shaw.ca/corn/il2sig2.jpg

geetarman
04-06-2004, 09:34 AM
good G2 pilots are very hard to handle on-line imho

mortoma
04-06-2004, 09:52 AM
Well online is a totally different animal. I was more talking about TnB abilites and used offline QMB as a test bed. The mediocre turn ablitity and less than stellar handling of the G2 allowed me to conclude it's not Uber. Since a truly Uber plane should do all things well, including TnB. The fact that the F2 is better at TnB and is not Uber ( far from it ) itself would suggest the G2 is not Uber either. Since it lacks one of the important qualites associated with "Uberness" the G2 is many things, Uber is not one of them. A "nice plane" would be a far better summation.
It's nose is not brought to bear on an enemy as easily as it should be either, it's not the best gun platform. But not too bad.

zugfuhrer
04-06-2004, 09:55 AM
Did you fly at realistic setting?

blabla0001
04-06-2004, 09:59 AM
Use flaps when you turn in a G2, then it will turn much better.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2004, 10:05 AM
The G2 has been recently neutered. It *used* to be all that everyone's saying, but no longer.

It now suffers from "Oleg's Banana Peel Snap Stall", which used to only plague the F series.

Used to be, a little nose trim would take out most of that tendency from the G2, but wouldn't have much effect on the F2 or F4. Now, it's reversed. The Fs respond to the down nose trim, and the G2s now get snapped left and inverted out of coordinated maneuvers.

The FM for these planes are all over the place.

mortoma
04-06-2004, 10:16 AM
Of course Cappadocian, as far as FM especially. I do play with icons and maps and such but that has nothing to do with helping a plane fly better. I also play with CEM too.

crazyivan1970
04-06-2004, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
The G2 has been recently neutered. It *used* to be all that everyone's saying, but no longer.

It now suffers from "Oleg's Banana Peel Snap Stall", which used to only plague the F series.

Used to be, a little nose trim would take out most of that tendency from the G2, but wouldn't have much effect on the F2 or F4. Now, it's reversed. The Fs respond to the down nose trim, and the G2s now get snapped left and inverted out of coordinated maneuvers.

The FM for these planes are all over the place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder how can you comment on current G2s FM if you don`t even own AEP... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

mortoma
04-06-2004, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
Use flaps when you turn in a G2, then it will turn much better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I use flaps when I turn all 109s. Every time.

Gershy
04-06-2004, 10:26 AM
hmmm...the problem with your test is that you judge BnZ fighters by their TnB ability. I mean what's the use in that? You should TnB in a 109 only in rare cases. there are other important things to consider as well: armament, speed, aso... So I'd say you shouldn't really judge a plane if you fly it the wrong way. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

Xnomad
04-06-2004, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
The G2 has been recently neutered. It *used* to be all that everyone's saying, but no longer.

It now suffers from "Oleg's Banana Peel Snap Stall", which used to only plague the F series.

Used to be, a little nose trim would take out most of that tendency from the G2, but wouldn't have much effect on the F2 or F4. Now, it's reversed. The Fs respond to the down nose trim, and the G2s now get snapped left and inverted out of coordinated maneuvers.

The FM for these planes are all over the place.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The little snap stall is fine it's no real problem the first time it happened after upgrading to AEP I was surprised by it, but now I don't get it as often to call it a problem. What is needed is a more potent MG 151/20 as it seems a little poor at the moment.

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

LilHorse
04-06-2004, 11:03 AM
Maybe I'm just not so sensitive to changes from one version of FB to another but I've felt that the G2 has always been good but not uber. Rate of climb has always been it's strong point. Turns okay (but you shouldn't). Doesn't hold up in high speed dives like the G6 series. And armament is so-so. So it's good not uber.

mortoma
04-06-2004, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Gershy:
hmmm...the problem with your test is that you judge BnZ fighters by their TnB ability. I mean what's the use in that? You should TnB in a 109 only in rare cases. there are other important things to consider as well: armament, speed, aso... So I'd say you shouldn't really judge a plane if you fly it the wrong way. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You missed the point. In my opinion ( and I stress it's my opinion ) a truly Uber plane should be able to do all things well, including TnB. In it's present state, the G2 is not Uber, only good. I do take into account all things you mentioned. I was not flying it the "wrong way", since all planes are capable of turning and my test ( if you actually read it ) was talking about only TnB and how good 109s of different varities can do it, comparatively speaking. Since you can TnB in any plane, regardless of how well it does it, doing it can't be really wrong, only ill-advised. I am aware that the strongest suit of the 109 family is not turning, at least not against Soviet planes. Now against American planes they become turners since they don't turn well either. It was not a test of how good they do everything, never said it was. Too often people come to comment on a post without really reading what it's all about in the first place.

[This message was edited by mortoma on Tue April 06 2004 at 10:16 AM.]

mortoma
04-06-2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LilHorse:
Maybe I'm just not so sensitive to changes from one version of FB to another but I've felt that the G2 has always been good but not uber. Rate of climb has always been it's strong point. Turns okay (but you shouldn't). Doesn't hold up in high speed dives like the G6 series. And armament is so-so. So it's good not uber.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Exactly!! Finally someone agrees with me and read my post and understood it.

crazyivan1970
04-06-2004, 11:12 AM
I think G-2 is everything it should be. It earned respect of VVS pilots and most mentioned plane in their memoirs from what i can tell...

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

mortoma
04-06-2004, 11:14 AM
It is everything it should be and it's really good. Just not Uber or super in any way, shape or form.

crazyivan1970
04-06-2004, 11:18 AM
It`s not uber by all means. It just another LW fighter with attitude, but much depence on the pilot.. well that`s the case will all of them hehe.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

XyZspineZyX
04-06-2004, 11:46 AM
Ivan wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder how can you comment on current G2s FM if you don`t even own AEP...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One can't. But you've been reading old posts, when I was considering not purchasing it. I do own AEP now.

johann63
04-06-2004, 11:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
...It now suffers from "Oleg's Banana Peel Snap Stall", ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

good one

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BlitzPig_johann

crazyivan1970
04-06-2004, 11:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Ivan wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder how can you comment on current G2s FM if you don`t even own AEP...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One can't. But you've been reading old posts, when I was considering not purchasing it. I do own AEP now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, my appologies. It was dated March 10th.

Regardless... your "BIASED" rants are not helping and rather irritating...so i suggest you to find mature approach to all things that you might disagree on. It`s pretty simple.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

bodaw
04-06-2004, 11:59 AM
As a Luftwaffe flyer, I agree with you 100% mortoma. It's a very nice plane at best. It does some things well and others not so well.

I really do miss the 20mm cannon though. I think they got mixed up with the .22LR.

S77th-brooks
04-06-2004, 01:21 PM
if use flaps you cause drag and loose E ,thats the last thing you should in 109,S http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

FW190fan
04-06-2004, 01:38 PM
I love flying 109s.

As a mater of fact, I love to fly any a/c that says Messerschmitt on it. 109, 110, 262, 163...

They are phenominal aircraft.

http://people.aero.und.edu/~choma/lrg0645.jpg

GK.
04-06-2004, 01:55 PM
yak1b outclasses the g2 in everything except climb and takes more hits to boot.

Kwiatos
04-06-2004, 05:13 PM
I stil claim that G-2 turn too good. In FB (AEP) G-2 turn better that F-4. In many books a read that BF F was the best manouevrbility of all bfs. In old IL2 BF F turn slighty better that G-2 and that was correct. As i read turn time of BF F was about 19(some souorce 18) sec, G-2 should be worst about 1-2. See ratio weight to wing area. In Aircraft Viewer we have: F-4 - 159 kg/m2 G-2 - 179 kg/m2. Power(max) to weight we have near the same: F-4 - 0,49 hp/kg G-2 - 0,47 hp/kg.

MystiqBlackCat
04-06-2004, 11:21 PM
"You missed the point. In my opinion ( and I stress it's my opinion ) a truly Uber plane should be able to do all things well, including TnB."

Using this logic it would then be true that the Me262, Me162, the Komet, YP-80, and the BI-1 are also not "uber" planes and then I would pose the question; Why then are they banned from most DF servers if they are mearly "good" and not "uber?"

bodaw
04-07-2004, 03:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Using this logic it would then be true that the Me262, Me162, the Komet, YP-80, and the BI-1 are also not "uber" planes and then I would pose the question; Why then are they banned from most DF servers if they are mearly "good" and not "uber?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How could you compare jets to props?

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 04:09 AM
what id like to add is that only those who know truely know a plane are qualified to comment

the G2 is a damm fine plane with hidden qualitys that take proper testing to get to know & abuse

Spitfires & G2's are a fantastic match with the Spitfires DM giving it the edge

then again Bf109 G2 regulars will come here & say why did you let the Spifire catch you ?

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 04:09 AM
all i can really add is that i find Bf109 DM to be weak in comparison to other countrys planes

especially its motor

& they are overly thirsty as has been proven

MatuDa
04-07-2004, 04:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Ivan wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I wonder how can you comment on current G2s FM if you don`t even own AEP...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

One can't. But you've been reading old posts, when I was considering not purchasing it. I do own AEP now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, my appologies. It was dated March 10th.

Regardless... your "BIASED" rants are not helping and rather irritating...so i suggest you to find mature approach to all things that you might disagree on. It`s pretty simple.

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I didn't fing Stiglr's post biased. What was immature in his post in your opinion btw? Being a mod you should give ppl a break and cool disputes down, not stir them up http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I think stiglr was correct in his analysis of 109 flight models, they are inconsistent with historical data. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/354.gif

ARSNL
04-07-2004, 04:37 AM
He said RANTS, not rant. It was actually a broader reply to stiglr's general attitude in the past more then this specific thread.

http://www.digitalmelee.com/arsenal/Arse242.gif

MatuDa
04-07-2004, 04:40 AM
Well if he wasn't ranting this time why slap the guy? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

ARSNL
04-07-2004, 04:42 AM
lol, that I won't even attemt to answer for Ivan. Come to think of it I'll just go to bed now... hmmm hmm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

http://www.digitalmelee.com/arsenal/Arse242.gif

MatuDa
04-07-2004, 04:47 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif

No worries m8 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 06:23 AM
Ivan's just "being a moderator".

It's a common sickness. They always come down hard on people who *consistently* complain on topics, because they're not popular (and upsets the regularly scheduled backslapping of the fanbois "old boys" club) or they just get tired of hearing the same thing over and over. And, they inject their *personal opinion* into their decisions, rather than apply measurable or quantifiable factors, like use of foul language, personal attacks, etc.

Of course, they're not willing to actually discuss the merits of the argument, and the dev team doesn't fix the problem. In fact, the devs sometimes they dig in their heels, even when it's agreed upon that they're wrong (e.g., muzzle flash, and the 190 pit) and "just won't fix it", or invent some "reason" why it "can't" be fixed, so the ruling from up top on the board is that we can no longer complain about it, because the dev team has said, "that's that". I say, that's when you REALLY start to carp on something! If you've got truth and fact on your side, why should you give in?

So, exactly where IS the problem, I ask you?

As for the "B" word, I don't use it casually. I say the evidence is there, and it's fairly consistent over time. It is an ugly thing to consider, I agree, but as I say, "that's my story and I'm sticking to it".

To be fair to Ivan, actually, I've seen much worse moderating, over at SimHQ. I've been temporarily banned there a few times just for asking why someone is modelling a certain plane, when it's not clear that the sim's flight and weapons systems can even model that particular plane's arsenal.