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BPLIzard
07-25-2004, 01:25 AM
I set the fps counter on to give an idea on its performance. Pretty cool card.


http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/1.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/4.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/9.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/8.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/7.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/12.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/11.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/3.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/5.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/2.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/Lizard/BlitzPig.jpg (http://www.blitzpigs.com)
BLITZPIGS (http://www.blitzpigs.com)

BPLIzard
07-25-2004, 01:25 AM
I set the fps counter on to give an idea on its performance. Pretty cool card.


http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/1.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/4.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/9.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/8.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/7.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/12.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/11.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/3.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/5.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/2.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/Lizard/BlitzPig.jpg (http://www.blitzpigs.com)
BLITZPIGS (http://www.blitzpigs.com)

Dawg-of-death
07-25-2004, 01:28 AM
Very nice . I have a X800xt pe ordered if they evership. I can't wait but I guess I'll have to. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/sonar.gif

S~

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

-HH-Dubbo
07-25-2004, 01:32 AM
Very nice mate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I'm jealous

http://www.angelfire.com/falcon/nightschpanker/crashoz.jpg
Brisbane Area Defence, Strathpine Field 2, 11 June 1943

Capt.LoneRanger
07-25-2004, 02:22 AM
My 6800Gt is on it's way and will hopefully arrive early next week. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-25-2004, 02:32 AM
looks the same on my Radeon 9800 (no Pro)

and i get the Same results on FPS as on THESE screens.

interessting could be one zoomed in to a big city on perfect.

http://home.arcor.de/sebastianleitiger/pics/ajatus.jpg

Capt.LoneRanger
07-25-2004, 04:15 AM
With a 9800 non-pro?

Sure, it looks the same, with my 9800 pro, but 50FPS over perfect-water? How do you do that?

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!

Extreme_One
07-25-2004, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt.LoneRanger:
With a 9800 non-pro?

Sure, it looks the same, with my 9800 pro, but 50FPS over perfect-water? How do you do that?

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto!

S! Simon
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
Download the USAAF & RAF campaign folders here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-10.html).

Download "North and South" including the Japanese speech-pack here (http://www.netwings.org/library/Forgotten_Battles/Missions/index-12.html). *NEW*

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WUAF_Badsight
07-25-2004, 04:28 AM
MAAAN those look awesome http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

i request some landscapes !

lets see your FB terrain dude : ))))

(& give us some bigger res too , ya screenies are what i hope to get , onlywhen i got the money saved tho http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif)

.
__________________________________________________ __________________________
actual UBI post :
"If their is a good server with wonder woman views but historic planesets...let me know!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thr0tt
07-25-2004, 05:54 AM
9800 pro and get the same too.

Cat 4.7's.

Capt.LoneRanger
07-25-2004, 07:00 AM
Same quality or same FPS, Thr0tt?

I use 4.7s, too, and NEVER got these FPS in any scene like that. Unless you have a VERY fast machine, I'd be really interested in how you do this. Can you post a screenie with FPS, too?

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!

LeadSpitter_
07-25-2004, 07:02 AM
what do you get in cockpit in the spitfire and hurricane? over cities or flak firing?


great shots btw, I definatly need to get a new graphics card, mines holden back my p4 3.0 badly

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

Simjock
07-25-2004, 08:57 AM
Thw water looks better than the planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.pcaviation.net/simjocksig.jpeg (http://www.pcaviation.net/)

"Take is optional, landing is manditory. When worse comes to worse, just remember to keep the greasy side down."

PF_Coastie
07-25-2004, 09:12 AM
Very nice indeed! I am also glad to see something in 2 of those shots. I call it the "screen effect". Look at pics 2 and 8. It looks as if you are looking through a screen door. It is very apparent when you are using external mouse view and you move the view around. The screen will stay in place while the picture moves behind it.

I have always seen this in perfect mode and wondered if anyone else has. Now I know.

It only seems to be really noticeable at close ranges to the water and at certain angles.

I believe it is in the game code and not any driver issue.

Very sweet pics man.

Enjoy!

PF_Coastie

Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)

Coasties FB and ATI settings (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/IL2setup.html)
http://home.earthlink.net/~bmcoastie/images/FS_SIG.jpg
Click here to find out more about FIGHTER SWEEPS 2 (http://663blacktigers.net/FS2index.html)


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Capt.LoneRanger
07-25-2004, 10:00 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

ScreenDoor?

greets
Capt.LoneRanger


Why is 6 afraid of 7? Cause 7 8 9!

tsisqua
07-25-2004, 10:28 AM
I've noticed it too, Coastie. I had it with my old Ti4200, and I still have it with my 9800 Pro, so I agree that it is probably something to do with the code. It only happens on perfect.

Were those shots taken with water=2 ? It sure looks like it. I only get those frame rates with your tweaking, Coastie . . . so I can see that the card is absolutely awesome, but it will take some new game coding . . . draw distance increased, detail increased, the new shaders implemented . . . etc. . . . before we really see what this card can do, so its up to the developers to create a game that will really make this card shine. When it costs $250.00 next year (yes, I'm betting on it) I'll have one. For right now, the 9800 Pro is plenty good enough for me.

Thanks for the pics . . . very sweet http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tsisqua

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/tsisqua-bird1.JPG

ASM 1
07-25-2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tsisqua:
Were those shots taken with water=2 ? It sure looks like it. I only get those frame rates with your tweaking, Coastie . . . so I can see that the card is absolutely awesome, but it will take some new game coding . . . draw distance increased, detail increased, the new shaders implemented . . . etc. . . . before we really see what this card can do, so its up to the developers to create a game that will really make this card shine. When it costs $250.00 next year (yes, I'm betting on it) I'll have one. For right now, the 9800 Pro is plenty good enough for me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> yep me too - http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif I have mine with an 9800 XT BIOS and OC'd to 433/388 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif. Not that I wouldn't love a next gen card, but IMHO they're too expensive at the moment, plus, I've just bought the 9800 so unless I win one in a competition....

nice pics btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

S!

Andrew

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v299/asm016/WW2%20Stuff/Sig_Pic.jpg

Udidtoo
07-25-2004, 11:02 AM
Beautiful screens dude.

I may be able to come close to the visual quality with my 9800 pro Oc'd a tad but if I tried to claim that I had an avg in the mid 60's I would be exaggerating to the point of fabrication. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-25-2004, 11:41 AM
what screen resolution and card settings are used (FSAA and AF)?

i dont wanna sound like a jerk off but i can get those FPS on my AMD3200+ with a 9800pro==&gt;XT clocked on a 1200x900 reso and 4AA 4AF on perfect over the water with water=2 but i get those nasty freezes and stutters wich make it not so nice to play on

anyway nice screenies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

KGr.HH-Sunburst
07-25-2004, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RK_HH-Sunburst:
what screen resolution and card settings are used (FSAA and AF)?

i dont wanna sound like a jerk off but i can get those FPS on my AMD3200+ with a 9800pro==&gt;XT clocked on a 1200x900 reso and 4AA 4AF on perfect over the water with water=2 but i get those nasty freezes and stutters wich make it not so nice to play on

anyway nice screenies http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

EDIT sorry i didnt see the average FPS wich is in the 60s i get about 45 fps avg
i would like to see some screenies over the islands itself on those settings and see what you get http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
_''All your Mustangs are belong to us''_
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://www.hell-hounds.de
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunsigHH.jpg
''All your Mustangs are belong to us''

BPLIzard
07-25-2004, 02:45 PM
Some more screenies in cockpit and external views.

Sunburst:
I have it on 1152 x 864 at 32 bit with 4X AA and AF off.
Sorry this is as big as photobucket would allow the size. Otherwise, it automatically resizes the sreenies to 800 x 600, for some reason.

From the Black Death track.

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_12-33-57-43.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_12-37-22-18.jpg


Quick mission using the Crimea map with 16 IL2 T's with torps and 12 109's.

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_12-53-05-65.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_12-54-26-53.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_12-56-20-10.jpg


Some in cockpit shots over the city.

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_13-06-55-00.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_13-05-17-92.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_13-01-27-15.jpg

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/il2fb_2004-07-25_12-45-59-67.jpg

P.S. This is only the entry level 6800.

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/Lizard/BlitzPig.jpg (http://www.blitzpigs.com)
BLITZPIGS (http://www.blitzpigs.com)

biggs222
07-25-2004, 03:00 PM
yeah thats the saem 6800 i have just the basic 6800...and im gettign GREAT FPS to..just a bit of studdering over the cities and when a bunch of bombs go off...but i only have 512 ram...i want 1G or more. that should solve the problems....PERFECT MODE RULEZ!!!!

PF_Coastie
07-25-2004, 03:19 PM
I am still not impressed with perfect mode. Seeing your fps in the 20's with no Aniso on is not all that impressive to me.

This game code needs to be re-written so these things are better implemented. Only BOB will bring that solution.

I will stick with excellent mode.

PF_Coastie

Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)

Coasties FB and ATI settings (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/IL2setup.html)
http://home.earthlink.net/~bmcoastie/images/FS_SIG.jpg
Click here to find out more about FIGHTER SWEEPS 2 (http://663blacktigers.net/FS2index.html)


OFFICIAL ATI BETA TESTER

redcloud63
07-25-2004, 04:10 PM
great pics thanx. what's the rest of the specs
in that puter'?.

Templar_4450th
07-25-2004, 04:17 PM
Those screens are beautiful..

All I have is a GeForce 4 Ti 4400

*hangs head in shame*

"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature, and has no chance of being free unless made or kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." - John Stuart Mill

BPLIzard
07-25-2004, 06:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
I am still not impressed with perfect mode. Seeing your fps in the 20's with no Aniso on is not all that impressive to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No doubt Ati kicks Nvidia's A when it comes to AA application. And this may be nothing new to you as you use ATI. But having a change from a Ti 4600 that cannot even go up to 10 fps in perfect mode to a 6800 that gives me this, I say I'm impressed as hell.

Maybe I can impress you with slide guitar playing and iaido kata instead, hmm?

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/Lizard/BlitzPig.jpg (http://www.blitzpigs.com)
BLITZPIGS (http://www.blitzpigs.com)

PF_Coastie
07-25-2004, 09:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BPLIzard:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PF_Coastie:
I am still not impressed with perfect mode. Seeing your fps in the 20's with no Aniso on is not all that impressive to me.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No doubt Ati kicks Nvidia's A when it comes to AA application. And this may be nothing new to you as you use ATI. But having a change from a Ti 4600 that cannot even go up to 10 fps in perfect mode to a 6800 that gives me this, I say I'm impressed as hell.

Maybe I can impress you with slide guitar playing and iaido kata instead, hmm?

http://www.blitzpigs.com
http://www.blitzpigs.com
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nono Lizard, Don't get me wrong man. I am very happy for you and the pics are great. I was just giving my opinion on the all mighty perfect mode.

I would be curious to see if 5 years from now with the 5GHZ cpu, 1gb 2ghz video cards if this game will play smoothly 100% of the time in perfect mode. I just dont think the code is clean enough to allow it.

PF_Coastie

Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)

Coasties FB and ATI settings (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/IL2setup.html)
http://home.earthlink.net/~bmcoastie/images/FS_SIG.jpg
Click here to find out more about FIGHTER SWEEPS 2 (http://663blacktigers.net/FS2index.html)


OFFICIAL ATI BETA TESTER

RAAF_Edin
07-25-2004, 09:08 PM
The very sad reality with these new video cards (6800Ultra & X800XT) is that they are not being utilised at their best by the current CPU & the rest of the system... (maybe even the game code) they are being held back (especially the X800XT).

I have a P4 3GHz and I have already paid for the upcoming X800XT but only recently realized that IL-2 will not benefit at all when it comes to framerate compared to my current 9700pro. Sadly my CPU is the bottleneck and the only benefit from getting this video card is going to be image quality due to full use of FSAA and AF and probably increase in resolution at the same time and I'll be able to get Forest=3 & Water=2... but that's about it.

Don't get me wrong as I still get a very playable framerate even with the 9700pro on prefect mode, but... i can only use 2x FSAA & AF and I must set Water=0 and Forest=0. Actually with Forest=3 I still get 34fps average on "TheBlackDeath" track but with Forest=0 I get 44fps average. Minimum is 14fps either way as it's the CPU & the rest of the system doing this http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

As the "TheBlackDeath" track has shown... when it comes to all those FM/DM/Bullets etc calculations... the P4 3GHz is still not enough to run that track with at least 30fps min (which is what I am always wishing for).

Yeah, in QMB and low action situation, the frame rate will very likely not drop bellow 30fps at any point in time and "full" perfect will still be playable... but I hate the fact that no CPU's are being made any more that will be used on motherboards with AGP buss on it.

The most I can do is get the P4 3.4GHz and that's the limit... If in the future I wish to get a faster CPU I will need a new motherboard, memory, & video card (again).

That just sucks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

PS: those AVERAGE framerates on the screenshots are NOT a good referrence as it's clear the counter was not stopped (reset) every time he loaded a track or started a new QMB mission. Only the momentarily framerate is true for the given screenshot.

--------------------------------------
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No76 Squadron RAAF

[This message was edited by RAAF_Edin on Sun July 25 2004 at 08:17 PM.]

BaldieJr
07-25-2004, 09:26 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Average up a bunch of numbers. Now average those same numbers but add a "0" in there.

55
22
80
35
43

Avg: 47

55
22
80
35
43
0

Avg: 39

Read the results very carefully. This card is SMOKING.

I'd also like to point out the fact that instantaneous fps readings during a disk-write (screenshot) will probably drop.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that BPLizard is totally blown away by the card. I may be wrong.

RAAF_Edin
07-25-2004, 10:13 PM
I hope you are right and I hope he is blown away by the card... and I hope me too, some time soon... if this X800Xt ever ships to "Kangaroo Land" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

--------------------------------------
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Edin "Kuky" Kulelija
No76 Squadron RAAF

BPLIzard
07-25-2004, 10:53 PM
Hey Coastie,
Honest to God, man, I wasn't in anyway offended. I didn't take your comment in a wrong way. I'm actually in a bantering mood. Maybe I should learn to punctuate my statements with more smilies.

And yes, I'm quite blown away. Thank you.

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v147/BPLizard/Lizard/BlitzPig.jpg (http://www.blitzpigs.com)
BLITZPIGS (http://www.blitzpigs.com)

TheGozr
07-26-2004, 12:43 AM
next card will be a dual with pci express ... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/images/IOCompetition.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

Cess-Harp
07-26-2004, 01:06 AM
I have a 9800 pro with a 3ghz with 800 fsb , and two raptor drives with a raid. And 2 gig of ram , and yes I can get fps's like that, up in the air . But down on sea leavel and close to citys or on the run way , no they drop down.
There is alot more to what fps you get over all and with alot of aircraft around on a big water map , your fps will drop down , and you will not have that on the 6800 or ATI 800 .
Your 6800 is great and looks good.
I have the ATI 800 ultra on the way.. I just like ATI better my self. But it was a lot more pricy than the 6800.

bartflaster1
07-26-2004, 01:17 AM
For the Vanilla 6800 (not a GT or Ultra) I would say that is giving a trememndous account of itself http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif(consider this card is around $275 USD/ 220 UK, its a good performer for the money) nice one BPLizard.

RAAF_Edin, I can assure you geting an X800XT over your 9700pro, will make a difference with a 3.0 CPU, you will be able to run perfect in the same settings you run excellent now, and have faster fps, I jumped from BD av of 31fps /w 9800pro and p4-3.0@ 3.3 in excellent to 36fps in perfect on the same settings with a x800pro modded to XT.
Admitedley it does drop well below 30 fps minimum, but I have found if you get an av of 30 in BD, then virtually all other scenarios will maintain over 30fps at least 95% of the time.

HellToupee
07-26-2004, 03:14 AM
just what are your specs bplizard?

http://lamppost.mine.nu/ahclan/files/sigs/spitwhiners1.jpg

PF_Coastie
07-26-2004, 04:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldieJr:
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Average up a bunch of numbers. Now average those same numbers but add a "0" in there.

55
22
80
35
43

Avg: 47

55
22
80
35
43
0

Avg: 39

Read the results very carefully. This card is SMOKING.

I'd also like to point out the fact that instantaneous fps readings during a disk-write (screenshot) will probably drop.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that BPLizard is totally blown away by the card. I may be wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes baldie, But now take those same numbers and add a 744 to it! Comes to 163.166. Now add a zero and it is 139.85. It works both ways. The averages in the above shots were slightly scewed by the extreme High mark when turning on the counter or letting it run while looping the track.

PF_Coastie

Coasties Place (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/)

Coasties FB and ATI settings (http://www.angelfire.com/ultra/coastie0/IL2setup.html)
http://home.earthlink.net/~bmcoastie/images/FS_SIG.jpg
Click here to find out more about FIGHTER SWEEPS 2 (http://663blacktigers.net/FS2index.html)


OFFICIAL ATI BETA TESTER

TX-EcoDragon
07-26-2004, 05:25 AM
While we are on the subject. . .

IL-2:FB
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_6800_ultra/page14.asp

LOMAC:
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_6800_ultra/page18.asp

S!
TX-EcoDragon
Black 1
TX Squadron XO
http://www.txsquadron.com

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http://www.waynehandley.com

Northern California Aerobatic Club
http://www.iac38.org/

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http://www.vhvt.com/

Learn to fly, learn aerobatics, learn to fly a tailwheel at LVK.
http://www.attitudeaviation.com/

http://www.txsquadron.com/uploaded/TX-EcoDragon/ravenvert.jpg