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Serval_EAF310
03-17-2004, 12:18 PM
This skin represents the paintwork of the Spitfire MK392. This 38 victories ace Joined the RAF in 1938, flew with 616 sqn during the BoB. In July 1942 he was given command of 610 sqn and in March 1943 of the Kenley Spitfire Wing. In March 1945 he was finally promoted to Group Captain. He was an A.O.C. in the Middle East Forces when he retired in 1964. In 515 sorties he was hit by enemy fire once. Here follows the story: On August 23rd 1944, Johnnie Johnson shot down two FW190s and his aircraft was hit for the first time by enemy fire. After the combat, he found himself separated from the Wing ( a most dangerous situation) and he proceeded to join a formation of six aircraft after a friendly wing waggle from its leader. He discovered too late that he had inadvertently joined up with a formation of Me109s! Miraculously he escaped by pulling up and climbing into the sun at full power. When the supercharger kicked in he got the extra boost of speed that he needed and he escaped safely but not without taking a cannon shell in his wing root. Upon returning to base he obtained another Spitfire and again went right back into combat.

http://www.1java.org/forums/johnnie.jpg
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=9861

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Serval_EAF310
03-17-2004, 12:18 PM
This skin represents the paintwork of the Spitfire MK392. This 38 victories ace Joined the RAF in 1938, flew with 616 sqn during the BoB. In July 1942 he was given command of 610 sqn and in March 1943 of the Kenley Spitfire Wing. In March 1945 he was finally promoted to Group Captain. He was an A.O.C. in the Middle East Forces when he retired in 1964. In 515 sorties he was hit by enemy fire once. Here follows the story: On August 23rd 1944, Johnnie Johnson shot down two FW190s and his aircraft was hit for the first time by enemy fire. After the combat, he found himself separated from the Wing ( a most dangerous situation) and he proceeded to join a formation of six aircraft after a friendly wing waggle from its leader. He discovered too late that he had inadvertently joined up with a formation of Me109s! Miraculously he escaped by pulling up and climbing into the sun at full power. When the supercharger kicked in he got the extra boost of speed that he needed and he escaped safely but not without taking a cannon shell in his wing root. Upon returning to base he obtained another Spitfire and again went right back into combat.

http://www.1java.org/forums/johnnie.jpg
http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=9861

<A HREF="http://www.1java.org/sh" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.uploadit.org/1javaserval/images.php
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robban75
03-17-2004, 12:33 PM
A great looking skin on a beautiful fighter! A perfect match!http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

TPCMike
03-17-2004, 12:49 PM
Serval you're an absolute star. Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.

Again here's me sitting in that very aircraft:

http://www.tech-pc.co.uk/mike/mikespit.jpg

I believe he got 18 kills in MY268, not sure how many he got in this one though.

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Kampfmeister
03-17-2004, 01:44 PM
Very nice Serval. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm assuming from the maple leaf emblem under the cockpit that he was Canadian. I only know a few things about Johnnie Johnson, but I always thought he was British. Am I mistaken in this belief?

J30Vader
03-17-2004, 01:58 PM
His squadron was Canadian. JEJ was all English.

His books 'Wing Leader' and 'Full Circle' are must haves.

TPCMike
03-17-2004, 03:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kampfmeister:
Very nice Serval. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm assuming from the maple leaf emblem under the cockpit that he was Canadian. I only know a few things about Johnnie Johnson, but I always thought he was British. Am I mistaken in this belief?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As Vader says Johnnie led the Canadian Spitfire wing although he was British himself.

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Serval_EAF310
03-17-2004, 03:27 PM
Thanks for the hint. I'll look out for them.

Meanwhile a fanshot I got:
http://www.1java.org/forums/john.jpg

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Sturmtrooper
03-17-2004, 05:11 PM
Great work Serval !!!!!
Johnnie Johnson is one of my favorite WW2 aces !
Thank you ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

http://home.bellsouth.net/coDataImages/p/Groups/183/183586/pages/456377/untitled1.gif

DynamicBass
03-21-2004, 12:34 AM
Sorry, only saw this thread now.

Johnnie is still alive and lives in South Africa. I think around the George area by the coast.

He was inteviewed a year or two ago by one of the local aviation magazines. I remember when asked about going into politics after the war his comment was "NO" and that polititians are "all ****s, arent they?".

Cheers,
Dynamicbass

RedDeth
03-21-2004, 01:34 AM
johnnie johnson is not alive. he died a year ago. and he died in canada and lived there and raised his family in canada.

i bought a robert taylor painting from him he ran wings-fine-arts in canada. his son runs it now that he died last year. i bought greycap leader which is a print of his spitfire shooting down a fw ...its got 38 canadian ace spitfire sigs on it including his.

but he absolutely passed away last year and was Not Living in south africa.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions AFJ www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/ (http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/) http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

horseback
03-21-2004, 12:41 PM
Will the REAL Johnnie Johnson please stand up?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I don't know about his current status, but I do know that Johnnie was chosen by Douglas Bader to be his wingie while the Legless Ace was Wing Commander at Tangmere. I guess you can learn a lot if you hang out with the right people...

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Heavy_Weather
03-21-2004, 01:30 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

Isatheprophet
03-21-2004, 01:48 PM
Air Vice-Marshal J. E. (Johnnie) Johnson, CB, CBE, DSO and two Bars, DFC and Bar, fighter ace, was born on March 9, 1915. He died on January 30 aged 85.



http://www.mishalov.com/Johnson_Johnnie.html

Lucius_Esox
03-21-2004, 03:17 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
Great stuff. Bader's disability did not effect his ability to pick the right people for the job, maybe his best skill? Wasn't Johnnie Johnson right up there in terms of overall kills for Uk/Commonwealth Aces?

TPCMike
03-21-2004, 03:19 PM
Top RAF/Commonwealth Ace during the war.

I believe one US pilot got more. Probably some Russians too but I don't know any specifically.

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Oso2323
03-21-2004, 03:30 PM
The skin looks nice. If I had time & energy I'd try to create a Canadian speech-pack to go with it.

It's a shame however that we won't be getting the Spit ix that JEJ (and just about every other RAF/RCAF ace) flew. The LF.ixc with the round rudder was the standard RAF fighter. The pointy-tails were more rare.

(and just in case I sound too negative, I think that the Spits are the best thing to happen to this game)

BTW, I'm not sure about JEJ living in Canada. He was a career-man with the RAF, and then started some charities in England (Johnnie Johnson Housing Trust). If he did live in canada, I'd be curious to know where.

RedDeth
03-21-2004, 03:46 PM
jej lived in canada . i spoke to him on the phone several times as did my girlfriend. his family still lives there now. his son runs wings-fine-arts now that jej just died.

you can find it online. he was flown back to england to die. he was british. but we were calling canada whenever we called. tried to buy some out of print robert taylors from him
http://www.wings-fine-arts.com/

JEJ lived for 20 years in the united states in conneticut then moved to canada where he resided till he passed away

btw JEJ was a very cool guy. we bought a 300 dollar print from him and he couldnt get it to us for christmas so he sent us a 500 dollar print instead!!! and all without a word from us! he WAS the man. made my girlfriend laugh on the phone.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions AFJ www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/ (http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/) http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

Oso2323
03-21-2004, 04:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedDeth:
jej lived in canada . i spoke to him on the phone several times as did my girlfriend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Really?! What was he like? I always thought of him as a real man's man: very tough, very extroverted, a real "captain of the football team" type. Although he probably mellowed a bit as he got older (as do we all).

Great post!

DeerHunterUK
03-21-2004, 04:54 PM
I've got a BBC documentary about the history of the Spitfire filmed back in the 70's with JEJ on there. He seemed quite an extraordinary man who didn't think his exploits were that great, a typical unassuming hero in my estimations.Top man

No1_Moggy
-----
In memory of 'The Few'
http://www.lima1.co.uk/Sharkey/spitfire.jpg
The Tangmere Pilots - http://www.tangmerepilots-raf.co.uk/
Know your enemy and know yourself; in a hundred battles, you will never be defeated.

Sgt.Aryan
03-21-2004, 05:11 PM
Question - Why do German aces (Nowotny, Hartmann, Graf, etc etc) have +90-352 kills, and most American aces have less than 50 generally, and britties have about the same?

Was it because the Germans had less forces, and more skilled pilots, or because there were so many unskilled allied fighters?



Scenario -

One ace German pilot VS 500 rooks...

German guy gets em all in one whack (totally blown out of proportion)


Or, is it more like 500 allieds vs 4 or 5 Germans, so you really COULDN'T get many kills, since there were so many teamates taking everyone down before you got a chance to?

Zyzbot
03-21-2004, 05:41 PM
The Allied aces did a specified tour and then were rotated out to train new pilots. They were then replaced by other pilots.

The Germans were losing the war and flew until they died or were wounded.The ones who survived amassed high scores.

Sgt.Aryan
03-21-2004, 05:53 PM
Ahh, thank you.

But, some links to evidence to back up your story would be great =) If you don't mind.

Zyzbot
03-21-2004, 06:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sgt.Aryan:
Ahh, thank you.

But, some links to evidence...


here is one link i have bookmarked...

http://www.caselab.okstate.edu/ocharle/projects/lf.html

Zyzbot
03-21-2004, 06:10 PM
One German fighter ace and Knight's Cross holder (he expressed the wish of remaining anonymous) expressed the impression that the Soviet airmen were better than the Americans (this was regarding the US airmen in North Africa in 1942). This is supported by Alfred Grislawski, who - speaking of the last Soviet pilots that he met (in the spring of 1943) compared to the American pilots that he met later in 1943 and in 1944 - said: "It is hard to compare because the Americans always came in large numbers against few of us. But when it comes to the individual pilot, I regard the Russians as better than the Americans. This is only natural, because the Americans had this tour system. How much did they fly - thirty or forty combat missions? - and then they were called back home again. They never accumulated that much experience."
"The advantage of the Americans was that they always appeared in large numbers," is a common statement from former Luftwaffe aces.

http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/text.html

maxim26
03-21-2004, 06:20 PM
There are many reasons why german aces have much higher scores then allie aces. For americans and british it can be explained with limited number of missions they had to fly.

VVS pilots did flew whole war without breakes, but they had different type of missions. Fore example Pokrishkin had in total 53 kills, but half of the war he flew CAS and reconnasance mission. And the allie pilot with the highest score - 62 kills, Kozhedub started only at 1943. Before this he was instructor in flight school.

And in general soviet pilots flew much less missions. Pokrishkin flew 600 missions and only 155 combat sorties. Compare it to Hartmans 1400 missions.

Pollireh
03-21-2004, 06:37 PM
the reason for the high number of victories achieved by luftwaffe-aces is that they had so many targets!
In mid/late 1944 every German airplane had to face about 20 anglo-american airplanes (from: Alfred Price, "The last Year of the Luftwaffe").
Due to this high number of enemies most luftwaffe-pilots did not survive their first missions, while the experts of the luftwaffe shoot down dozens of mustangs, spits, thugs and so on just to survive!
And the surviving pilots consequently had hundrets of victories.

On the other side, most of the american airmen never saw a german fighter plane at the end of war, so they did not get enough enemies to become an ace.

Flamin_Squirrel
03-21-2004, 06:46 PM
I seem to remember a quote from a German ace...

The allies rested their aces. However if the luftwaffe you either got an iron cross, or a wooden cross.

Chilling http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Oso2323
03-21-2004, 07:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FliegerAD:
the reason for the high number of victories achieved by luftwaffe-aces is that they had so many targets!
In mid/late 1944 every German airplane had to face about 20 anglo-american airplanes (from: Alfred Price, "The last Year of the Luftwaffe").
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I generally agree with you, but I'd like to add that in 1943/44 when the LW did fly against the Allies, they often flew in force - and in numbers greater than the opposing Spitfires.

However, as has been stated before, when a LW pilot flew, the chances are he'd run into action. The Allies (depending on where you were) - maybe 1 in 10 missions.

On the other hand, I've always thought that most of the high scores were racked up against rookie pilots flying inferior machines (i.e. the early VVS, the Poles, the French, etc...)


To tell you the truth, I'm more interested in the personalities of these guys. What makes a great fighter pilot/leader? One of the more interesting films I've seen lately was a Bridge too Far, which was an excellent study of military leadership.

Pollireh
03-21-2004, 07:58 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Oso2323:

On the other hand, I've always thought that most of the high scores were racked up against rookie pilots flying inferior machines (i.e. the early VVS, the Poles, the French, etc...)

QUOTE]

´The French and Poles hat only a very small air force equipped with old planes and pilots beeing educated with even older tactics (not beeing Rookies!)

The VVS had in generally more planes in the air during a combat, but Luftwaffe-pilots often were the attackers, that is why they could down enemies and fly away (classic: hit`n`run).

But in one point you are wrong: although the Armeé de l´Air (French) has been totally scattered and the USAAF not, the losses of the last one were much higher, at least in the air.

Luftwaffenexperten shot down mostly airplane of well trained and equipped enemies like RAF, as most of their victories happened after the Blitzkrieg-Phase (1939-Summer1942) of the war and the air forces of Poland and France were witely destroyed on the ground by bombers.

BTW: "A Brigde too far" is great! Much better than the unrealistic and infamous "James Ryan"

HarryVoyager
03-21-2004, 08:25 PM
Maxim and Squirrel are quite right. Erik Hartmann flew 1400 combat mission during the course of his career, often flying two or more mission in a single day.

By contrast, the top scoring American Ace, Richard Bong, with 40 kills, only managed to fly about 200 missions befroe he was pulled all the way back to the states, and most of those were, somewhat, against orders. Had Bong seen 1400+ mission, he would have certainly broken the 300 kill mark.

Harry Voyager

Oso2323
03-21-2004, 10:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FliegerAD:
BTW: "A Brigde too far" is great! Much better than the unrealistic and infamous "James Ryan"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I have to admit, Private Ryan's strengths were the battle scenes - they really brought WW2 to life. But the plot? I still don't get it. "Bridge" was more realistic in that it really brought out the human element - plus seeing actual towns and cities that you could relate to (or see yourself living in) slowly reduced to rubble was a big plus.

How to tie this back to JEJ? Someone suggested a Band of Brothers type of series related covering airmen. I'd love to see one featuring JEJ. Although I prefer the "ensemble" cast idea. The CBC's good at this sort of thing, however they tend to focus on our great sacrifices and defeats (read: Vimy, Dieppe)

DynamicBass
03-21-2004, 11:51 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by RedDeth:
johnnie johnson is not alive. he died a year ago. and he died in canada and lived there and raised his family in canada.

i bought a robert taylor painting from him he ran wings-fine-arts in canada. his son runs it now that he died last year. i bought greycap leader which is a print of his spitfire shooting down a fw ...its got 38 canadian ace spitfire sigs on it including his.

but he absolutely passed away last year and was Not Living in south africa.



RedDeth, thanks for the input. I read an interview with him published in one of our local aviation magazines about 2-3 years ago.

I was surprised to read that not only was he alive and well but living in South Africa!

That I remember, they mentioned where he lived and he commented on why he liked it there (it was a coastal town).

I very clearly remember his comment on polititians as mentioned above.

However, I cannot argue with you as I do not have the article, it was a few years ago, I cannot remember which one of the local aviation magazines it was published in, I may have misread/misunderstood the article when I first read it.

If I ever find it again I will post here again, should it read as I remeber it.

However, your input has certainly given me doubt regards what I remember and I accept your word in this regard.

Regards,
Dynamicbass

pourshot
03-22-2004, 02:15 AM
Another important reason the german pilots had such huge scores is becuase only the leader did any shooting,his wing man was only for support.

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Ride It Like Ya Stole It

Serval_EAF310
03-22-2004, 08:49 AM
Thanks for the nice stories.

About the question:
I've heard several reasons, and all of them might actually have contributed to it.
At first the German had superior material compared with the countries they attacked first. So, they had 'easy meat' there. Meanwhile their pilots could get experience (some even started in the Spanish civil war). When they had to face a more equal opponent, their tactics were better. It's quite well known that the tight formations the RAF used first left little time to search for enemies. So it happened more than once that the Germans jumped the formation, and that one or more tail end charlies were gone without anyone noticing. When the Germans attacked, the RAF would almost allways engage.
Later in the war, where the Allies took the initiative, the Germans would not engage if they did not have advantage. That is why the RAF started with the wellknown Circus missions. Actually the most important goal of the bombers was to be the bait for German fighters.

German pilots served during the whole war. If they were shot down they were sent back to service quite soon. The allies were more cautionous with doing so. And many American fighters only had to serve some 50 missions (I don't know the actual number) and not all of them would sign for a second turn.

And as said before: many kills were after 1942. This was the time where the allies had the initiative. This meant that when an Allied pilot was shot down he would en up behind enemy lines, with only a little chance to return (and then often after a long time).
This was also the case for German pilots, but in the Blitzkrieg the Germans occupied territory fast, with a good chance to free their pilots again. Though I know that, for example, pilots and paratroopers that were taken prisoner by the Dutch were transported to Canada.

So, I think it's a combination of factors that caused this.

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[This message was edited by Serval_EAF310 on Mon March 22 2004 at 07:59 AM.]

Cossack_UA
03-22-2004, 09:13 AM
j

[This message was edited by Cossack_UA on Mon March 22 2004 at 08:24 AM.]

norbertcolon
03-22-2004, 09:56 AM
Hmm are there perhaps 2 Johnnie Johnsons?
The 38 victory ace definetley died a year or so ago and the last I knew was living in the village of Wormhill near Buxton in Derbyshire.
He is or was in the local phone book under his last rank which was something like Air Vice Marshall.
I was based in Buxton up to a year ago as a Police Officer and after reading Fighter Leader I intended on calling on him (in the line of Community Police Work of course) and asking him to sign my book. I drove past his house many a time but could never quite pluck up the courage to meet the great man. Unfortunately he passed away before I could find that courage.

A colleague of mine knew him and had visited him there before.

So the mystery deepens Canada or Derbyshire, but definetley not South Africa. I personally am convinced it was Derbyshire. Thats in England for you chaps from the rest of the world.

DynamicBass
03-22-2004, 10:27 AM
Geezz the plot thickens!!

Whatever was the real truth regards Johnnie Johnson??

I now am determined to contact the various editors of the 4 different local aviation mags tommorow to see if I can track down the article!

They also took photographs of him during the interview and you could clearly see although old, that it was Johnnie Johnson.

As stated before I could be hugely mistaken and misread/misunderstood the article in the first place.

However with all this confusion I would realy like to get to the bottom of this!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Isatheprophet
03-22-2004, 07:55 PM
hi

Again Johnnie Johnson did not die last year. he died in January 2001 in England.

Need I say this again

Lucius_Esox
03-23-2004, 12:54 AM
Beat me to that point pourshot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think they (the German pilots) had a different attitude to fighter combat. In the Lw situations where a whole Staffel could almost be regarded as it's "Ace's" wingman would be inlikely to happen in other air forces.

RedDeth
03-23-2004, 02:33 AM
go to his arts online. it gives his biography. he lived many many years in america then moved to canada. where his family still resides.his sons name is mike in canada at wingsfinearts. he of course owns property in england and did die there as he knew he was passing away. www.wings-fine-arts.com (http://www.wings-fine-arts.com) itll explain everything. in the "about us" section

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of Now 12 time Champions AFJ www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/ (http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/) http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg