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Smithies89
12-09-2015, 06:33 PM
Did anyone else pick up on this?

My first playthrough the only thing going through my head was I was certain I was going to kill him before the end

My second I kind of saw him as an image of what Jacob was on course to become had he kept on his current path.

I honestly didnt know what to make of the kiss I really didnt give it much thought for some reason

VestigialLlama4
12-09-2015, 06:36 PM
Did anyone else pick up on this?

My first playthrough the only thing going through my head was I was certain I was going to kill him before the end

My second I kind of saw him as an image of what Jacob was on course to become had he kept on his current path.

I honestly didnt know what to make of the kiss I really didnt give it much thought for some reason

After The Dark Knight, it became fashionable to reinterpret hero-villain stories as twisted homoerotic roleplay. See SKYFALL.

So Syndicate is following on the same trend.

I-Like-Pie45
12-09-2015, 07:20 PM
After reading all of this interesting academic analysis, I sure wish Roth had been voiced by Morrissey

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 07:46 PM
Yeah, as to whether or not Jacob or Roth had feelings for one another- I supposed it is never specifically clarified, so we can't really speak with any certainty on that.

However, that kiss, I believe is just Roth doing one last random thing. Roth was an anarchist at heart, and kissing the man who kills you is a relatively twisted and unpredictable thing to do.

Smithies89
12-09-2015, 07:56 PM
Yeah, as to whether or not Jacob or Roth had feelings for one another- I supposed it is never specifically clarified, so we can't really speak with any certainty on that.

However, that kiss, I believe is just Roth doing one last random thing. Roth was an anarchist at heart, and kissing the man who kills you is a relatively twisted and unpredictable thing to do.

Yeah Im pretty sure thats why I didnt give it too much thought. was just since listening to Loomers podcast with Richard Farrese where he stated Roth was in love with Jacob

Sorrosyss
12-09-2015, 07:56 PM
I thought the kiss was just playful, but then he did keep calling him 'Jacob darling'. He was a fun character regardless.

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 08:18 PM
Yeah Im pretty sure thats why I didnt give it too much thought. was just since listening to Loomers podcast with Richard Farrese where he stated Roth was in love with Jacob

It's possible- though, obviously, love can mean a variety of things in the English language.

I really doubt the feeling was mutual, though- especially by that point in the story.

Nickyhaswifi
12-09-2015, 08:18 PM
Anybody who says Roth wasn't gay is in denial.

The man kept calling Jacob dear and darling. He dedicated his entire play to him and he was stereotypically into the theatre.
Then he groaned as he was kissing Jacob as if he was really into it lol


I loved it. Made me literally lol because I didn't think the devs would actually go there.

D.I.D.
12-09-2015, 08:18 PM
How I saw it:

http://i.imgur.com/nkaDyp2.jpg?1

But the head writer (not the writer of those specific missions though, apparently) agrees with you that there was more to it.

cawatrooper9
12-09-2015, 08:23 PM
How I saw it:

http://i.imgur.com/nkaDyp2.jpg?1

But the head writer (not the writer of those specific missions though, apparently) agrees with you that there was more to it.

This is one of the greatest things I've ever seen on these forums...

crusader_prophet
12-10-2015, 02:52 AM
Then where did Lydia come from? Could Jacob be a bi-curious?

D.I.D.
12-10-2015, 03:05 AM
Jacob could be exclusively into men and have kids. I have friends whose parents are gay men and gay women, not unusual at all.

crusader_prophet
12-10-2015, 03:16 AM
Jacob could be exclusively into men and have kids. I have friends whose parents are gay men and gay women, not unusual at all.

Understood, but then she is most likely not biological as artificial insemination wasn't available back then. And if she is not biological, how can we experience her memories?

D.I.D.
12-10-2015, 03:49 AM
It doesn't have to be like that at all. A lot of gay people don't want kids, but a lot of them do and the urge to have children is as strong in them as it is in any heterosexual person. Many gay people can and have had sex with people of the opposite gender. If you're already outside of what a society considers "normal", or if your societal culture isn't as dictatorial as most of our cultures tend to be, then your sexual scope isn't necessarily all that narrow. Equally, many heterosexual people have had sex with someone of the same gender, and it doesn't necessarily mean they're somewhat bisexual.

From what Jeffrey Yohalem was saying, it seems like he imagined Jacob to be someone who maybe wasn't having any particular consideration about defining himself at all, but the thing with Roth was maybe just waking him up to himself. He was a bit ambiguous about this meant, but suggested Jacob was at least somewhat sparked by this confrontation with gay feelings. So I guess we'll never know: maybe sexually open, but romantically gay?

[ETA - None of the friends I'm talking about were conceived by artificial means, by the way.]

crusader_prophet
12-10-2015, 04:28 AM
[ETA - None of the friends I'm talking about were conceived by artificial means, by the way.]

Okay, that was the only option left and I did not want to assume that. But I guess that is it. I had a friend as well, he tried on another girl friend of mine but she denied everytime lol, but I can see Jacob being very persuasive. haha

Smithies89
12-10-2015, 06:12 PM
This is one of the greatest things I've ever seen on these forums...

Agreed

Ceelaris
12-11-2015, 04:14 PM
In my opinion, Roth is not in love with Jacob in the sense of "I want to have you by my side forever". Roth, to me, is an anarchist and a hedonist to the extreme - he passionately loves whatever or whomever takes his fancy, and doesn't let petty things like conventions or other people stand in his way. Jacob was just one of those objects of passionate fancy, although a pretty big one. So I don't think it would be right to say "he is gay" or "he is bi"; these categories are too limiting for him. I also don't think he ever stops to think what his passionate love for something or someone might mean or become, but acts on his whims, like kissing Jacob. Certainly, surprising and even shocking people is part of the appeal for him, he loves keeping those around him off balance (the kiss, again, and generally his way of jumping from one topic to another in conversation). Meeting Roth certainly was a whirlwind of "what??!" for me, so the kiss didn't even stand out amongst all the other things, like the dead crow, burning people in the theatre, and his general flamboyant craziness.

I don't think the important question here for Jacob is if he is gay or bi or straight, either. Roth's wildness and non-conforming ways appeal to Jacob's fun-seeking side. I assume Jacob's Assassin training keeps him from succumbing too much, and he's not nearly as anarchic or egoistic as Roth (which is hard to achieve, after all). But it's not the first time Jacob became someone's toy, either; Pearl also flirted and toyed with him, even if she wasn't as brash as Roth. In all likelihood, the entire episode including the kiss from Roth did make Jacob aware that he could be someone's object of sexual desire, and who he might desire. He seems flirty (e.g. with Pearl), but not very experienced (in manipulating people through flirtation), nor does he seem to have stopped and thought about what he might be looking for in a sexual partner or a life partner. I bet it would be a different story if someone in their family had put him through things like "we'll introduce you into proper society, and isn't that a nice girl, and you should find someone proper to settle down with", but the pressure is not as high for men and he's still pretty young. So I don't think he really had a reason to think about things like sexual desire yet. But we don't know anything about what happens after the game ends (yet, possibly), so it would be entirely speculation at this point.

What purpose does Roth serve in the plot? I think he's there to show Jacob that having fun and enjoying the big city does have limits. Ideally, it would teach him that there are things you need to be serious about, and that you shouldn't trust people too easily. Also, Jacob doesn't have a permanent love interest like Evie has Henry. Pearl fills (or pretends to fill) this role for a while, Mrs. Disraeli also fills this role in the sense that Jacob gets to play the cultured gentleman with her, escorting her around (but she is also able to easily manipulate him. He takes the Prime Minister's wife to a really seedy and dangerous place, after all, and he can't seem to win against her bustling carefreeness). Roth is a higher-powered incarnation in this role. Having multiple "partners" fits Jacob's fun-loving and sometimes flighty character well imho. I can easily imagine that he meets Lydia's grandmother in a whirlwind romance, contrasting with the slow, quiet and careful romance between Evie and Henry. So, to answer the question in this thread's title, I don't see Roth as a love interest in the traditional sense, but he fills the role (alongside others) and then some.


Let me just add that Lydia's existence is in no way a proof of anything. Many people did not get married because they happened to madly fall in love with someone, but because it was the "proper" thing to do and expected. Women, because it ensured their economic survival if they married the right man. Men, because they had to keep the line going, which would be the case with Jacob here. Everyone, because having children assured you of having someone to take care of you and hopefully provide an income in old age (hopefully). So regardless of his sexuality, it's not unlikely at all that Jacob got married and had children. Many gay people right up into our time got married and had children (as some here mentioned) because that does not necessarily have anything to do with your romantic or sexual interests.

Jacob_ACS19
10-19-2018, 08:58 PM
Actually, what the kissing scene represents is that actually Roth was very angry as Jacob ruined his plan and...Roth just wanted to realise Jacob that to complete any of his fantasies.. Like driving a world to the cruel maniac state ..he can do anything.. Even kiss his enemy (Jacob). This scene has a very deep meaning.. Most of gamers taking it as sexual or romantic but it is not..actually.. What it seems to be..