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View Full Version : Why does the 190 flop like a fish?



GR142_Astro
01-07-2004, 11:42 PM
Before you go with ignition, my flame suit is on and this is not a whine but a simple question. Why is it that when following a 190 driver (even the ones with great pings) that I routinely observe some of the most unnatural movement seen in FB/IL2?

Once the pilot begins hard evasives and in particular, jinking, the plane will present a very erratic and irregular flopping motion. It's almost as if the heavy control input causes the FM to go loco for a moment.

Seems that for such a great and popular aircraft (I've always liked the real 190 myself), they really missed the mark.

1 - Seat height / poor gunsight view

2 - Oversimplified damage model

3 - Overdone rollrate (to its detriment)

I know this is well covered ground and I will return to the heart of my point, the flop. The only other time I witnessed this was with a certain French fellow who flew a Yak3 on the greatergreen server awhile back. His plane demonstrated the same jerky, robotic movements and his connection was certainly to blame.

One last request to keep those flamethrowers holstered. Jump in an La7 or something and get some 190 drivers to jink around and see if you experience the same.

I'm beginning to see what you dedicated 190 guys have been dealing with.

Salute all.

GR142_Astro
01-07-2004, 11:42 PM
Before you go with ignition, my flame suit is on and this is not a whine but a simple question. Why is it that when following a 190 driver (even the ones with great pings) that I routinely observe some of the most unnatural movement seen in FB/IL2?

Once the pilot begins hard evasives and in particular, jinking, the plane will present a very erratic and irregular flopping motion. It's almost as if the heavy control input causes the FM to go loco for a moment.

Seems that for such a great and popular aircraft (I've always liked the real 190 myself), they really missed the mark.

1 - Seat height / poor gunsight view

2 - Oversimplified damage model

3 - Overdone rollrate (to its detriment)

I know this is well covered ground and I will return to the heart of my point, the flop. The only other time I witnessed this was with a certain French fellow who flew a Yak3 on the greatergreen server awhile back. His plane demonstrated the same jerky, robotic movements and his connection was certainly to blame.

One last request to keep those flamethrowers holstered. Jump in an La7 or something and get some 190 drivers to jink around and see if you experience the same.

I'm beginning to see what you dedicated 190 guys have been dealing with.

Salute all.

Hristo_
01-08-2004, 12:06 AM
Opening a can of worms here, bit in other sims they used to call it warproll.

Simply, a good rolling plane was roling faster than packets travelling through/to Internet/server/whatever. It isn't limited to a 190, but is most pronounced with it, since it is the best roller (as it should be).

If someone's connection is really bad (as with that French guy you mentioned), you can see it with other planes. And if the connection is terrible, it isn't just roll, it is everything else - the planes just warp around.

A solution from one of older online sims was to increase roll inertia of all planes. This, however, was purely artificial and made the planes fly like they had some considerable weight attached to their wingtips. Needless to say, it brought closer historical poor rollers and planes that lived by their roll rate. Effectively, it was punishing good rollers.

A better solution is low ping, of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LeadSpitter_
01-08-2004, 12:54 AM
kinda of reminds me of cfs2 fishslop stalls the 190 movement, yaks and p39s and the g2 are the same way not to pick on any specific nations planes.

Its also the reason I dont think this game is very realistic but its still the best out and fun to fly.

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VW-IceFire
01-08-2004, 06:51 AM
Its the fast roll rate combined with packet loss and thats the effect you get. You probably woulnd't see it nearly as much with a Zero for instance because its roll rate pales in comparison with the speed of the FW190's.

- IceFire
http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/spit-sig.jpg

p1ngu666
01-08-2004, 07:47 AM
i had this last night, some guy in a i16. looked like he was having a epileptic fit while clutching the controls
makes it nearly impossible to down him

Jaws2002
01-08-2004, 08:44 AM
I fly FW-190 ninety nine percent of the time and I have a good idea where is coming from. When I have someone chasing me the Foke Wulf is not flopping around until I get hit in the wing. If I get one little hole in the wing the aerodynamics of the aircraft become so bad that is hard to keep the plane flying. It looses all the stability.
The hit wing has a tendency to fall violently, and to compensate you need to put some ruder input and opposite aileron. Now if you want to change direction, turn, roll, climb, accelerate, etc, you loose the fragile balance of the plane. This is where the fish flopping is coming from.
So many time I really feel bad how my plane is flying, looks like some heavy duty stick stirring, but I just can't help it.

JG26Red
01-08-2004, 02:15 PM
I wonder if this has anything to do with the induced stalls to maybe escape... i have found it a good tactic when being chase and its obvious iam not going to escape to just pull hard on the stick, left or right and it induces a wild out of control spin\stall.. makes the plane go all over and a hard target iam sure... its rather easy to recover from when you pursuer has passed or pulled up, then just dive gain speed and try to get away again or turn on them...

or maybe just lag.. lol

GR142_Astro
01-08-2004, 03:16 PM
I appreciate the responses thus far, gents.

Let me reiterate that I do not want the 190 to be some lame target. That's no fun.

I understand that most aircraft begin to wiggle around when they take a wing hit, but what I am talking about is more robotic. The plane does micro-warps, as if you were cutting some frames out of a cartoon.

As I've said, this is a curiousity on my part to see if anyone else experiences this.

See you in the skies.....

DangerForward
01-08-2004, 09:49 PM
I prefer to fly the 190, but I've done a lot of red flying recently and seen the 190 flopping around. Actually I've seen several other planes such as the 109, IL2, p39, and LA7 do it too. The IL2 really stands out in my mind. I think it's just packet loss together with sudden movements. I had to chuckle though the first time I saw a LA7 do a flop. I thought, "Darn, the reds learned that too..." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GR142_Astro
01-09-2004, 01:23 AM
You know Danger, I have been flying Axis v Allies for quite sometime now, with a few fortunatley rare Air Quake server visits.

I do recall an La7 or two doing this, but rarely see 109s doing it. I recall you are a fine 190 pilot, so you should know the bird as well as any.

Anyway, thanks for the replies folks as well as some more insight to how this crazy game works.

WUAF_Toad
01-18-2004, 10:04 PM
This "flopping" effect has to do with the prediction code. Other planes will continue to go/roll/turn or whatever on your computer until you receive an update from the server. So a FW pilot can be rolling to the right on his computer and you still see him rolling to the left on your computer. When you receive an update from the server, the FW on your computer plays "catch up" (I'm sure you guys see this after getting packet loss). These "catch ups" are what make the FWs flop around when they're jinking. Annoying but so is dealing with people playing with 500+ ping.

SodBuster43
01-18-2004, 10:32 PM
This makes sense WUAF_Toad. Might this explain some of the warping / flopping == cheating complaints?

LeadSpitter_
01-19-2004, 11:04 AM
VW-IceFire


posted 08-01-04 05:51
Its the fast roll rate combined with packet loss and thats the effect you get. You probably woulnd't see it nearly as much with a Zero for instance because its roll rate pales in comparison with the speed of the FW190's.

- IceFire


You can move the same way offline and on LAN games, packet loss it not an issue. It does add to it in high ping servers but most of us dont play in them

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tagert
01-19-2004, 11:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Before you go with ignition, my flame suit is on and this is not a whine but a simple question. Why is it that when following a 190 driver (even the ones with great pings) that I routinely observe some of the most unnatural movement seen in FB/IL2?

Once the pilot begins hard evasives and in particular, jinking, the plane will present a very erratic and irregular flopping motion. It's almost as if the heavy control input causes the FM to go loco for a moment.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think most of what you seeing is LAG induce.. Alot of 190 pilots know this and take adv of it.. But to be fair the 190 had a very abrupt high speed stall that would flip it onto it's back very Very VERY quickly.. Some of the good Fw190 pilots USE that to make some very Very VERY cool moves! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Col Kit Carson makes note of this flip onto it back stall of the Fw190 and noted that the P39 did the same thing.. Something that IL2FB models very good IMHO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
Seems that for such a great and popular aircraft (I've always liked the real 190 myself), they really missed the mark.

1 - Seat height / poor gunsight view
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No it is dimentionally (3D) correct.. BUT... due to the limitations of the graphic engine they couldnt model the glass refraction that would have made that bar at the bottom of the gun sight smaller.. thus not block so much of your view... I wish they would have just adj the view to account for refraction when they intally drawed the cockpits.. but alass they didnt.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
2 - Oversimplified damage model
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Enh... who is really to say on that one.. damage is such a gray area.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
3 - Overdone rollrate (to its detriment)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not sure.. but dont ask to have it reduced.. unless you want the resedent 190 gang to gang bang you to death.. They tend to not be for realism.. just advantages.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
I know this is well covered ground and I will return to the heart of my point, the flop. The only other time I witnessed this was with a certain French fellow who flew a Yak3 on the greatergreen server awhile back. His plane demonstrated the same jerky, robotic movements and his connection was certainly to blame.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Most of what you see... I see it too.. is lag induced... the updates just dont come in fast enough sometimes... even with good connects... but if what your seeing is a 190 suddenly flip onto it's back.. that could be the nasty high speed stall.. Which tends to happen when a 190 pilot gets scared due to bullets flying back his cockpit! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142_Astro:
One last request to keep those flamethrowers holstered. Jump in an La7 or something and get some 190 drivers to jink around and see if you experience the same.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ive seen what you describe.. for the most part I think it is lag


I'm beginning to see what you dedicated 190 guys have been dealing with.

Salute all.[/QUOTE]

TAGERT

IKNO
01-20-2004, 01:31 PM
190 was known for exploiting its roll rate/instanteous turn to change vectors and "disappear" from opponents with slower roll rates.

Newsflash... if you're saddled up on a 190 trying to win a scisscors fight -- either flat or rolling -- then you're an idiot who deserves not to get a kill.

Given the absurdly generous modelling of most VVS planes you should easily be able to counter this advantage... if you understand how to play to your strengths.