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View Full Version : About the new patch... and the HF Spit... To Oleg and Ivan



Itto_Okami
04-21-2004, 04:17 PM
no... not another request to know when we'll have a date of release.
I've seen the screenshoots posted by Ivan, wolderfull thing to see. As I pointed in a post in that thread there was something not convincing in the HF Spitfire.
It's just a detail but it's important because that version is totally incorrect an never existed. After hours spent searching I can say that there was no operational Spitfire of the IX variant that used the extended wings. Both F and HF type shared the same normal span wing. The only operational variants of the Spitfire with the extended wing were VI (B wing), VII (C wing) and VIII (C wing).

bye

Okami

Itto_Okami
04-21-2004, 04:17 PM
no... not another request to know when we'll have a date of release.
I've seen the screenshoots posted by Ivan, wolderfull thing to see. As I pointed in a post in that thread there was something not convincing in the HF Spitfire.
It's just a detail but it's important because that version is totally incorrect an never existed. After hours spent searching I can say that there was no operational Spitfire of the IX variant that used the extended wings. Both F and HF type shared the same normal span wing. The only operational variants of the Spitfire with the extended wing were VI (B wing), VII (C wing) and VIII (C wing).

bye

Okami

biggs222
04-21-2004, 05:41 PM
i do believe he is correct.

but dont let this delay the patch...fix it later......or dont, i dont care.

VW-IceFire
04-21-2004, 08:14 PM
Yeah the rest of us were puzzled some time back about the HF Spit IX. Initially it was called a HP IX but we didn't get that either...

Are we absolutely sure that there weren't some retrofitted in the field with the longer wings? The thing I've learned about Spitfires is that nothing is absolutely for sure...thats what Gibbage hammered home to us...especially the IX line...they had all sorts of things done to them throughout the series. We're getting the one with the pointed tail but those were never uniformly distributed almongst a squadron either so you'd have lots of squadrons with one or multiple pointed tails and then some with the smooth round one.

So maybe Oleg has some more info than we do...he did goto England and potentially got as much info as he could about the RAF for BoB. Heck there may have been 6 or 10 of them operational but a taste of Spitfires no matter what is ok by me.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Bull_dog_
04-22-2004, 08:29 PM
This post is waaayyyy toooo quiet!

With all the spit fans and technical experts out there and no reply...hhhmmmmm

Well if the plane is historically inaccurate...maybe my wish for Spit MkV's w/ 120 rpg will be granted... yeah right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

VW-IceFire
04-22-2004, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bull_dog_:
This post is waaayyyy toooo quiet!

With all the spit fans and technical experts out there and no reply...hhhmmmmm

Well if the plane is historically inaccurate...maybe my wish for Spit MkV's w/ 120 rpg will be granted... yeah right http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You mean the Mark Vc? I don't think there were many of those....the Vb was by far the more common type as far as I can recall.

The IXe and IXc will have alot more firepower at their disposal.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

xwraith2
04-23-2004, 01:16 AM
I delved into my copy of Spitfire: The History, and found some references. HF IXs were not the most numerous of the type. They used a different engine, a Merlin 70 with a rated HP of 1,475 and a max speed of 416mph @ 27k feet.

Browsing through the lists of aircraft serials in the book, the first entry for HF IXs I can find are in the MKxxx series. MK842 was originally built as F IXC, but was crashed on delivery and rebuilt, sent to 313 Squadron, and was sent to the SAAF after the war.
The next entry I can find for a HF IX is ML145. It was one of about 30 delivered to the 8th Maintenance unit, between March and April 1944. While serving with 313 Squadron (Czech), it bagged a V-1 with pilot C. Stojan at the controls. Eventually it too would be sent to the SAAF after the war.

Hope this helps,
-xwraith2

hop2002
04-23-2004, 04:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You mean the Mark Vc? I don't think there were many of those....the Vb was by far the more common type as far as I can recall.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were approx 4000 Mk Vb, 2500 Mk Vc.

However, many VBs were refitted as VCs when they came in for overhaul, so in the end more probably flew with the universal wing than without.

biggs222
04-23-2004, 09:49 AM
i just want to know why oleg is calling it the "HP" mkIX not the HFmkIX

Ive never heard of any spit variant being called an HP. what does it even mean?

Kurfurst__
04-23-2004, 10:34 AM
Whatever the case, the extended tip version is a bit funny in the beta, when you roll it, theres also a bit of yawing movement like you were using the rudder as well. I guess the difference in lift becomes a lot different with those larger wings due to the angle...

So the conclusion is, Mk IX with longspan wings never existed..?

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

biggs222
04-23-2004, 01:23 PM
I thought Beta tester werent allowed to speak....oh well.

yeah the mkIX never had a extended wingtip verion, just the engine mod, (merlin 70) for "High Flight".

but apparently this isnt even the "HFmkIX" its the "HPmkIX". which is AFAIK a ficticious name

crazyivan1970
04-23-2004, 01:55 PM
Unfortunately beta has tendency to leak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Oh well, that is about to change, i hope. True beta testers never speak of beta, unless given permission - just FYI. Whoever speaks of it must have gotten leaked version.

To original poster: I am not really familiar with Spitfires, maybe we can ask Gibbage on what version is it and what is this all about. You can always contact Oleg or devteam via il2beta@1c.ru and let them know your findings.

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Gibbage1
04-23-2004, 04:49 PM
OK. 1st. I never modeled the extended wingtips on the IX. Oleg's crew did that. 2nd, I have not found any proof that there was any IX's with this wingtip installed.

I will speak with Oleg about this ASAP. Its a damn shame too. The HF IX with the extended wingtips flew so nice.

My post's are my asumptions only, and in no way linked to fact. I am not an official 1C, Ubi, or Russian Red Rocket spokesman.

"Most P-39's were sent to the Russians - so I guess that was an American secret weapon against our Russian allies."

Stan Wood, P-38 pilot who also flew the P-39.

PaulCJ
04-23-2004, 07:09 PM
For what (little) it's worth, I know that it's not exactly the greatest reference document available, but here's what the Spitfire chapter of my copy of "Great Aircraft of the World" published in 1989 by Marshall Cavendish Books Ltd. (which has been lying around here since I was a teen) has to say about wings on the Mk IX:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"The Mk IX was simply a Mk V with the new engine - in fact a hasty lash-up to get the Merlin 61 (later the 63, 66 or 70) into action quickly. The definitive model was the Mk VIII, a much better aircraft; yet the Mk IX was kept in production to the amazing total of 5,665 and was still being built in 1945! It came with a profusion of variations, including LF (32 ft 7in/9.88 m), F (the regular 36 ft 10 in/11.23 m) and HF (40 ft 2 in/ 12.24 m) wings, the three previous armament schemes plus an 'E' wing with two cannon and two 0.5-in (12.7-mm) guns, and bomb loads up to 1,000 lb (454 kg)."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

At the very least, we know that the Mk IX could accomodate the same wide-span wings as the Mk VII (for example), and that the wingtips were exchangeable/removable (according to this book, it was just a question of unscrewing a couple of bolts, and, voil , clipped wing); therefore, although evidence of the extended wingtips being used on a regular basis is scarce, it does not mean that they never were used at all.

In that light, it would seem premature to get our knickers in a twist and try to have Oleg remove (or change) the plane from the patch just yet.

Anyway, just my two cents, not trying to ruin anything for anyone...

Bull_dog_
04-23-2004, 07:13 PM
please just don't delay that patch to fix this...it is entirely possible that field mods occurred or it can be fixed later.

I am much more interested in the other 100+ improvements and aircraft than this one slight inaccuracy...if it is even an inaccuracy at all.

No dedicated server, no spit mk IX and no allied aircraft with firepower is driving me nuts...I rarely play on line anymore because the damage modelling makes surviving a 1 on 1 encounter w/ luftwaffe very difficult.

Itto_Okami
04-24-2004, 03:26 AM
@PaulCJ: Many incorrects things were wrote about the Spitfire just because the variant indication. Many times I've read about Spitfire F.IXb and I was never able to find any picture of this variant untill I've read a note by Dr. Price (author of many books about aviation, mainly on the Spitfire) that said that the "b" variant was an unofficial variant indication about the F.IXc with the Merlin 63 engine used at squadron level. The confusing thing was that on official reports both "b" and "c" designation were used at the same.

@Bull_Dog_: I don't think that correcting this thing can delay the patch... it's simply an item deletion...

@VW-Icefire: I' have to check about the fire power of the Vc, but it should be the same of the IXc (same wing and armament). In any case surely Vc had a better fire power than Vb because had belt feeded cannons while Vb had drum feeded cannons and if I'm not wrong were just 60 round per cannon.

S!

Itto

PaulCJ
04-24-2004, 10:57 AM
Itto,

I see what you're saying, and, again, I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, but can you prove that the HF Mk IX never used the extended wingtips, not even during testing (or once in a Blue Moon)?

If it ever did, considering some of the planes that we have received lately (and please note that I'm not complaining about them), it would qualify for inclusion into the game as-is.

Maybe the solution here is to have two variants of the HF Mk IX, one with HF wings, and another with normal F wings?

Just a thought, don't mind me.

Itto_Okami
04-24-2004, 01:36 PM
Don't worry PaulCJ, we are people giving opinions. About proof on the extended wing tips, really I did'n found anything that show the use, nor operationally, nor during testing.
Anyway, extended wing tips were studied for high level operations such the interception of recce airplanes over Scapa Flow, home base of the british fleet. BTW, both Johnnie Johnson and Pierre Clostermann had chance to fly HF Spitfires over Scapa Flow.
My point is that British kept accurate tracking of everything they experimented with the Spit. Some times is very hard to find images of operational machines but every prototype was accurately studied. As example, it took me some years to find pictures of the Spitfires XII of the Squadron 91 while you can find everywhere pictures of the same variant with the codes of the Squadron 41 while I was aware of the "Spite-fire", a F.XIV fuselage mated with the laminal flow wings of the Spiteful, from many and many years. This lead me to say that if there is no evidence of testing it means that it wasn't tested.
The Spit is the subject of many books, basically telling all the same story. If something like that was existing surely had to emerge at a time or another.

BTW... there is another famous fighter that had an extended wing tip variant, that was born to be a carrier fighter and never saw service in that way but was used operationally and seems to me to remember that pilots were very pleasured by her performance... guess what? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!

Itto

[This message was edited by Itto_Okami on Sat April 24 2004 at 01:23 PM.]

PaulCJ
04-24-2004, 02:24 PM
I'm curious to see how this works out, maybe Oleg knows something that we don't?

Hell, it would also be nice to know what that HP business was about in the first place...

Itto_Okami
04-24-2004, 02:25 PM
at this point... me too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!

Itto

Bobsqueek
04-24-2004, 02:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>BTW... there is another famous fighter that had an extended wing tip variant, that was born to be a carrier fighter and never saw service in that way but was used operationally and seems to me to remember that pilots were very pleasured by her performance... guess what? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

S!

Itto

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bf 109T

CWoS FB forum. More Cheese, Less Whine. (http://www.acompletewasteofspace.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=25)

Kurfurst__
04-24-2004, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Unfortunately beta has tendency to leak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Oh well, that is about to change, i hope. True beta testers never speak of beta, unless given permission - just FYI. Whoever speaks of it must have gotten leaked version.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah. First, what did I tell? That Oleg`s model follow basic aerodynamics, and what everybody with a bit of aerodynamics knows this would happen if such and such changes are made in airframe/wings.. wing`s lift changes with the roll angle, and longer wings will produce more sideway force, ie. more yaw than usual, even though it`s barely noticable. All planes does it in AEP when you roll them...

And just to make your concious right, the beta did not leak. Not from me at least. I was asked by Oleg himself to test it, if I have some time. Unfortunately I have little... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif And to make it clear, I don`t "leak" anything about the beta progess, or state, I don`t post any performance figures of such pre-release version. Not anymore than you do yourself. But I fail to see what can it do to Oleg`s team if I note the Spit IX is rather well modelled IMHO... hardly if I would post a graph what speed it reaches etc. Calling this leaking is quite a bit of an exageration... Storm in a glass of water, if you ask me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

[This message was edited by Kurfurst__ on Sat April 24 2004 at 01:46 PM.]

Ruy Horta
04-24-2004, 03:13 PM
The Spit is not my field, but according to:

The Supermarine Spitfire
A Comprehensive Guide for the Modeller
Part 1: Merlin Powered

number produced
HF IXb/c/e = 400

wing type
HF IXb = High-altitude increased span (HP)
HF IXc = High-altitude increased span (HF)
HF IXe = High-altitude increased span (HF)

Main differences
HF IXb = 2x 20mm + 4x .303
HF IXc = 4x 20mm
HF IXe = 2x 20mm + 2x .50

Maybe someone with more interest in the type can explain.

Ruy Horta

hop2002
04-24-2004, 03:42 PM
There were some field conversions of early Spit IXs with Merlin 61 to tackle high flying German raiders. These might be what the book is refering to as the HP. They came about before the proper HF and LF production.

One engaged in combat with a JU 86 at 45,000ft over the UK.

They had all armour removed, as well as the machine guns, leaving just the cannon armament.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>HF IXb = High-altitude increased span (HP)
HF IXc = High-altitude increased span (HF)
HF IXe = High-altitude increased span (HF)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The book is suspect, then. The standard fit for the HF was certainly normal span wings, yet the book seem to be claiming extended span was standard for HF wings.

There may have been some proper HFs with extended span, it was a very simple modification that could be done by the normal ground crew. I've never seen a picture of a Spit IX with extended wings, though.

PaulCJ
04-24-2004, 03:58 PM
The plot thickens... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

PzKpfw
04-24-2004, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
There were some field conversions of early Spit IXs with Merlin 61 to tackle high flying German raiders. These might be what the book is refering to as the HP. They came about before the proper HF and LF production.

One engaged in combat with a JU 86 at 45,000ft over the UK.

They had all armour removed, as well as the machine guns, leaving just the cannon armament.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Their were also Spitfire VC field conversions w/armour removed, and armament was decreased to 2 x .50 that engaged JU-86P at 40,000+ ft in NA.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

----
The one that gets you is the one that you'll never see.
-----

"After 44 we called the new models the 'bumps', because every new model had another bump or hump on the fuselage, which naturally was particularly bad for the flight characteristics of the aircraft."

Walter Krupinski.
-----


"The damn Jerries have stuck their heads in the meatgrinder, and I've got hold of the handle."

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. December 26, 1944.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

Itto_Okami
04-24-2004, 04:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
There were some field conversions of early Spit IXs with Merlin 61 to tackle high flying German raiders. These might be what the book is refering to as the HP. They came about before the proper HF and LF production.

One engaged in combat with a JU 86 at 45,000ft over the UK.

They had all armour removed, as well as the machine guns, leaving just the cannon armament.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one the one flown by the Russian Prince Emanuel Galitzine. As you say, that was a special Spitfire, like the one flown by RAF at Aboukir, in Egypt. Later in the war Galitzine flew witn Squadron 124, using true HF Spit, the HF.VII variant.

This specific Spitfire was registeres wrongly as BF273, right registration was BS273 and was born as a Spitfire Vc. In 1942 was converted to the IX standard and saw service with Squadron 64, AFDU Duxford and the Special Flight North were it was involved in the famous Ju.86R interception.

BTW... there are many pictures around of Spits with standard wing span but with LF variant indication that this lead to me to think that the HF, F and LF indication was more an indication about engine variant than wing span

S!

Itto

Ruy Horta
04-24-2004, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hop2002:
The book is suspect, then. The standard fit for the HF was certainly normal span wings, yet the book seem to be claiming extended span was standard for HF wings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, because the actual span(s) given is that of the standard wing.

11.23m vs 12.24m for the HF Mk VII

Whatever the case may be, the extended wing tip seems to have been rare. Perhaps too rare to be included?

Ruy Horta

Kurfurst__
04-24-2004, 05:21 PM
Well if they included all those silly `46 planes (bah!!), the longspan HF IX has more right to be in the game in any case.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/fat-furred%20tigerB.jpg

"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".
- Lt. Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

"One day a Tiger Royal got within 150 yards of my tanks and knocked me out. Five of our tanks opened up on him at ranges of 200 to 600 yards and got 5 or 6 hits on the front of the Tiger. They all just glanced off and the Tiger backed off and got away. If we had a tank like that Tiger, we would all be home today."
- Sgt. Clyde D. Brunson, US Army, Tank Commander, February 1945

Itto_Okami
04-24-2004, 05:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
Well if they included all those silly `46 planes (bah!!), the longspan HF IX has more right to be in the game in any case.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The point is not how many extended wings Spitfires went to service, as far I know were 100 HF.VI, 141 HF.VII, a single Vc flown by the Aboukir Experimental Flight and some VIII, the point is that there is no evidence that the IX had extended wings nor as a test plane, nor as operational. From my point of view it's something that never existed. BI-1 flew, I-185 seems to have done some operational sortie, Bf.109Z was assembled like Gotha 229... while with this HF Spit we have something that was never even put on the drawing board.

S!

Itto

WWMaxGunz
04-25-2004, 02:41 AM
If someone didn't understand about clipped wing Spits and saw both kinds might they conclude that there was regular and extended wing models?


Neal

clint-ruin
04-25-2004, 03:41 AM
I would tend to agree with Kurfurst, if it was a possible assembly [being bolt-on], and could exist, and if the flight parameters are "easy" to calculate as they apparently were for the 109Z, I don't see a problem with having it. Noone's forced to fly it / use it / activate it in an online mission :&gt;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

faustnik
04-26-2004, 11:27 AM
From Spitfire: The History p.313 (probably the most complete book on the Spitfire I've ever read) "As a result of the experience with the SPitfire MkVIII, which had a limited production run, RAE Farnburough fomulated the factors affecting the design of a high altitude fighte, these being weight, wing plan form, propeller efficiency and supercharged heright at ceiling, the most promosing stated as increasing supercharged height and wing span. Increasing solidity of the SPitfire proeller also increased overall efficienty about 8% at heights above the supercharge dheights. After allowances for increased weight, maximum rate of climb was increased by about 20% and absolute ceiling by 1300ft. A larger diameter propeller provided about 25% increase in rate of climb at 30,000ft and a ceiling increase of 600ft. Weight was the major factor and the point made was that a twelve gun fighter is useless if it cannot operate at a ceiling at which four gun aircraft could. An increase in span produced a decrease in drag power over the whole range, but the weight factor had to be watched and the propellor match to the aircraft became important."



From "Spifire", Stewart Wilson p.38 -

"Production (MkIX): 4,101LF.IX, 1,255 F.IX and 400 HF.IX.

(Performance)
HF.IX - max speed 416 mph at 27,500ft., 369mph at 15,000ft; max climb 4,470ft/min; time to 30,000ft 8.3min; service ceiling 45,000ft."

http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/FaustSig
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crazyivan1970
04-26-2004, 04:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kurfurst__:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
Unfortunately beta has tendency to leak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Oh well, that is about to change, i hope. True beta testers never speak of beta, unless given permission - just FYI. Whoever speaks of it must have gotten leaked version.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nah. First, what did I tell? That Oleg`s model follow basic aerodynamics, and what everybody with a bit of aerodynamics knows this would happen if such and such changes are made in airframe/wings.. wing`s lift changes with the roll angle, and longer wings will produce more sideway force, ie. more yaw than usual, even though it`s barely noticable. All planes does it in AEP when you roll them...

And just to make your concious right, the beta did not leak. Not from me at least. I was asked by Oleg himself to test it, if I have some time. Unfortunately I have little... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif And to make it clear, I don`t "leak" anything about the beta progess, or state, I don`t post any performance figures of such pre-release version. Not anymore than you do yourself. But I fail to see what can it do to Oleg`s team if I note the Spit IX is rather well modelled IMHO... hardly if I would post a graph what speed it reaches etc. Calling this leaking is quite a bit of an exageration... Storm in a glass of water, if you ask me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First of all, i did not accuse you of leaking anything, i just suggested that you might have a leaked version. So who`s making storm in the glass of water eh? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

Second of all, it is true, that OFFICIAL beta testers are not making ANY comments on beta without permission.

Third, i wasn`t aware that you are beta tester...because i pretty much know them all...are you? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BerkshireHunt
04-26-2004, 08:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Itto_Okami:
As I pointed in a post in that thread there was something not convincing in the HF Spitfire.
It's just a detail but it's important because that version is totally incorrect an never existed. After hours spent searching I can say that there was no operational Spitfire of the IX variant that used the extended wings. Both F and HF type shared the same normal span wing. The only operational variants of the Spitfire with the extended wing were VI (B wing), VII (C wing) and VIII (C wing).
bye

Okami<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only evidence I can find that operational IXs used extended wingtips is contained in Morgan and Shacklady. Look at the colour profiles section. There is an artist's rendition of a Spitfire IX in pale blue, coded White 'R'. It has extended wingtips. The description says: "MkIX No 238 Sqdn, Italy 1943- note Aboukir filter".
Its serial number is BS342, which I found listed on page 206 amongst the Spitfire V service card details:

"BS342: 3414 R-RH converted to MkIX Merlin61, FF 18/09/42, 12MU 21/09/42, 47MU 21/10/42, Algenib 20/12/42, Alexandria 31/12/42, Suez 17/03/43, FAC3 13/11".

Now, I would never take an artist's depiction at face value and I would like to be able to say: i) I've traced the photograph from which the picture was prepared.
ii) that the machine definitely had extended wingtips.

But I can't find the photograph and I don't know anything about 238 Sqdn.
One thing seems certain anyway; BS342, even if it did have extended wingtips, could not have had an 'E' wing fitted, as we are to receive. The E wing was introduced around June '44 by which time BS342 had finished its operational life.

Gibbage1
04-27-2004, 12:24 AM
So far I have not seen any proof of IX's with the extended wingtip. I have "Spitfire; The History" and all there is in it is the vague paragraph talking about extended wingtips, and a drawing. No photo's.

All I can do is give Oleg this info, and let him make the choice.

My post's are my asumptions only, and in no way linked to fact. I am not an official 1C, Ubi, or Russian Red Rocket spokesman.

"Most P-39's were sent to the Russians - so I guess that was an American secret weapon against our Russian allies."

Stan Wood, P-38 pilot who also flew the P-39.

wayno7777
04-27-2004, 01:46 AM
I had a Spitfire book that listed all types, marks, and varients. I've been looking for it for years. Actually, I believe it was a Supermarine history. I've been bummed for a long time now. I do sort of remember a built 'prototype' with extended wing tips. Sorry not positive.

Wir greifen an!
Erich 'Bubi' Hartmann
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/wayno77-wayno77.jpg

Any landing you can walk away from is a good one!

Itto_Okami
04-27-2004, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Itto_Okami:
As I pointed in a post in that thread there was something not convincing in the HF Spitfire.
It's just a detail but it's important because that version is totally incorrect an never existed. After hours spent searching I can say that there was no operational Spitfire of the IX variant that used the extended wings. Both F and HF type shared the same normal span wing. The only operational variants of the Spitfire with the extended wing were VI (B wing), VII (C wing) and VIII (C wing).
bye

Okami<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only evidence I can find that operational IXs used extended wingtips is contained in Morgan and Shacklady. Look at the colour profiles section. There is an artist's rendition of a Spitfire IX in pale blue, coded White 'R'. It has extended wingtips. The description says: "MkIX No 238 Sqdn, Italy 1943- note Aboukir filter".
Its serial number is BS342, which I found listed on page 206 amongst the Spitfire V service card details:

"BS342: 3414 R-RH converted to MkIX Merlin61, FF 18/09/42, 12MU 21/09/42, 47MU 21/10/42, Algenib 20/12/42, Alexandria 31/12/42, Suez 17/03/43, FAC3 13/11".

Now, I would never take an artist's depiction at face value and I would like to be able to say: i) I've traced the photograph from which the picture was prepared.
ii) that the machine definitely had extended wingtips.

But I can't find the photograph and I don't know anything about 238 Sqdn.
One thing seems certain anyway; BS342, even if it did have extended wingtips, could not have had an 'E' wing fitted, as we are to receive. The E wing was introduced around June '44 by which time BS342 had finished its operational life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen that profile but I know that 238 Squadron used both F.IX and HF.VIII Spitfires just before it was disbanded as a fighter unit in 1944. Another strange thing in the profile is the Aboukir filter and the . Af far I know, Aboukir filter was a refined version of the standard Vokes filter and the Spitfire IX had Aero-Vee filtes.
I've tried to find evidende about sevice use of the HF.VIII with 238 Squadron studying the serial list on the book (eye killing experience) but data are quite incomplete. Many serials are noted as lost in action or for f/a but with no indication about wich squadron had in charge the serial. Whoop!

S!

Itto

Gibbage1
04-27-2004, 01:01 PM
This will settle the matter. I got an E-mail from Oleg and he said he has original Spit IX blueprints that show the extended wigns, and Russia got 2 examples but order was cancled.

So the IX HF with extended wings stays. Good. I rather like it. ITs a good turner.

Gib

My post's are my asumptions only, and in no way linked to fact. I am not an official 1C, Ubi, or Russian Red Rocket spokesman.

"Most P-39's were sent to the Russians - so I guess that was an American secret weapon against our Russian allies."

Stan Wood, P-38 pilot who also flew the P-39.

PaulCJ
04-27-2004, 02:07 PM
It's another victory for democracy. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BerkshireHunt
04-27-2004, 03:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Itto_Okami:

I've seen that profile but I know that 238 Squadron used both F.IX and HF.VIII Spitfires just before it was disbanded as a fighter unit in 1944. Another strange thing in the profile is the Aboukir filter and the . Af far I know, Aboukir filter was a refined version of the standard Vokes filter and the Spitfire IX had Aero-Vee filtes.
I've tried to find evidende about sevice use of the HF.VIII with 238 Squadron studying the serial list on the book (eye killing experience) but data are quite incomplete. Many serials are noted as lost in action or for f/a but with no indication about wich squadron had in charge the serial. Whoop!

S!

Itto<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Itto,
If you look at the dates it seems that BS342 was one of the first Spitfire IXs- ordered as a V but converted in mid- production to a IX. They literally just stuck a Merlin 61 in a V airframe even though it wasn't properly stressed. These early IXs all had the small carb intake fitted to Spitfire Vs. You can see this if you look at the profiles in the Osprey book 'Late Marque Spitfire Aces'. Johnny Johnson's earliest J-EJ was one. I would imagine that when sent to Egypt in 1942 one of the first things the local Maintenance Unit did was to fit an Aboukir dust filter. RAF Aboukir (now Abu Qir) is (was) on the coast of Egypt at the Nile delta.
It's quite possible this aircraft was fitted with extended wingtips as part of the RAF's effort to intercept high- flying German reconnaissance aircraft and bombers overflying Alexandria and Cairo. The Spitfire VIII would not have been available at this time as it came into service later. Do you know which units took part in the high altitude interceptions there? Was 238 involved?
The Aerovee became standard fit for Spitfire VIIIs and later Spitfire IXs . I always think of it as being only for temperate zones but this can't be true as there are many pictures of VIIIs and IXs in Burma, Malaysia, Australia and the Mediterranean fitted with Aerovees. I assume it could be adapted internally for tropical climates.
As I'm sure you know, it was mainly the pressurised Spitfire VII which had extended wingtips; only a few early VIIIs had them, basically because Supermarine's test pilot Jeffrey Quill objected to their installation. He said:
"When I am asked which mark of Spitfire I consider the best from the pure flying point of view, I usually reply, 'The Mark VIII, with standard wing tips.' I hated the extended wing tips on the Mark VIII and did everything I could to get rid of them. Originally all VIIIs had the long wing tips until I succeeded in getting them reverted to standard. They were of no practical value to the Mark VIII and simply reduced the aileron response and the rate of roll. On the pressurised Marks VI and VII, being essentially for high altitude operations, the extended tips were of value." (A. Price)

So it's very unlikely they would have been fitted to an unpressurised HFIXE, as we are to receive in the game. They were for flying at 38- 40,000 ft and doing this without a pressure cabin would have been very uncomfortable. If you can't go that high for reasons of pilot safety (lack of pressurisation) why fit the tips in the first place?
(By the way, I suppose the HFIXE could also be called HFXVIE- the packard Merlin equivalent- as they were visually identical).

Itto_Okami
04-27-2004, 06:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BerkshireHunt:

Itto,
If you look at the dates it seems that BS342 was one of the first Spitfire IXs- ordered as a V but converted in mid- production to a IX. They literally just stuck a Merlin 61 in a V airframe even though it wasn't properly stressed. These early IXs all had the small carb intake fitted to Spitfire Vs. You can see this if you look at the profiles in the Osprey book 'Late Marque Spitfire Aces'. Johnny Johnson's earliest J-EJ was one. I would imagine that when sent to Egypt in 1942 one of the first things the local Maintenance Unit did was to fit an Aboukir dust filter. RAF Aboukir (now Abu Qir) is (was) on the coast of Egypt at the Nile delta.
It's quite possible this aircraft was fitted with extended wingtips as part of the RAF's effort to intercept high- flying German reconnaissance aircraft and bombers overflying Alexandria and Cairo. The Spitfire VIII would not have been available at this time as it came into service later. Do you know which units took part in the high altitude interceptions there? Was 238 involved?
The Aerovee became standard fit for Spitfire VIIIs and later Spitfire IXs . I always think of it as being only for temperate zones but this can't be true as there are many pictures of VIIIs and IXs in Burma, Malaysia, Australia and the Mediterranean fitted with Aerovees. I assume it could be adapted internally for tropical climates.
As I'm sure you know, it was mainly the pressurised Spitfire VII which had extended wingtips; only a few early VIIIs had them, basically because Supermarine's test pilot Jeffrey Quill objected to their installation. He said:
"When I am asked which mark of Spitfire I consider the best from the pure flying point of view, I usually reply, 'The Mark VIII, with standard wing tips.' I hated the extended wing tips on the Mark VIII and did everything I could to get rid of them. Originally all VIIIs had the long wing tips until I succeeded in getting them reverted to standard. They were of no practical value to the Mark VIII and simply reduced the aileron response and the rate of roll. On the pressurised Marks VI and VII, being essentially for high altitude operations, the extended tips were of value." (A. Price)

So it's very unlikely they would have been fitted to an unpressurised HFIXE, as we are to receive in the game. They were for flying at 38- 40,000 ft and doing this without a pressure cabin would have been very uncomfortable. If you can't go that high for reasons of pilot safety (lack of pressurisation) why fit the tips in the first place?
(By the way, I suppose the HFIXE could also be called HFXVIE- the packard Merlin equivalent- as they were visually identical).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the reply by Oleg to Gibbage seems that this particular variation on the theme passed unseen to everybody until now. I suppose that this close the discussion about the extended wing tips. At this point I hope that Oleg show us the blueprint because is an interesting thing to see for all the Spitfire lovers. Crossing fingers!

S!

Itto

warpo
04-28-2004, 03:26 AM
I don't know if anyone will read this but I BEG the developers of the patch - if they want to put HF wings on a Spitfire, put them on the MkV model and call it a Mk VI (subject to the addition of a cockpit pressurising ram on the starboard engine panel) - or give the Mk IX a retracting tail wheel and call it a Mk VII. And if they do that, they might as well bring out the Mk VIII too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nick Johnson

k5054
04-28-2004, 08:37 AM
In fact some number of Mk VIIIs got the long tips, they were present in the Sicily/Italy campaign on US and Commonwealth operated Spits, and in the Burma campaign, 81 Sqn severely over-stressed their 8s in their first combat in the theatre and took the tips off fast. All 8s got the long tips at first, maybe 100+, although no record tells us and changing the tips was a 10 minute job. Nobody seems to have liked the long wings. And no I've never seen a IX with long wings either.

DuxCorvan
04-28-2004, 09:29 AM
Hey, there's proof of extended-tips HP IXe in combat. They were seen bringing down Bf 109Zs over Castle Wolfenstein... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

I had a HP printer. It could reach more than 12 feet altitude every time my wrath-bound brother kicked it after a printing error...

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

mamal
04-28-2004, 09:33 AM
You´re right ... so we´ve got Spit Mk VIII ... at least we could fly Scapa Flow cover missions.

Steph

Itto_Okami
04-29-2004, 11:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To original poster: I am not really familiar with Spitfires, maybe we can ask Gibbage on what version is it and what is this all about. You can always contact Oleg or devteam via il2beta@1c.ru and let them know your findings.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As reported by Gibbage, Oleg have blueprints of the Spit. Because I'm a modeller and a Spitfire fan, you think that Oleg could post for us the blueprints or an indication about the way to find it?? Spitfire is always an interesting subject for a model and a never known version is an even more interesting subjet!

S!

Itto

Itto_Okami
04-29-2004, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mamal:
You´re right ... so we´ve got Spit Mk VIII ... at least we could fly Scapa Flow cover missions.

Steph<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For that kind of mission is more accurate a VI or a VII version. VIII were manly employed in North Africa, SEAC and Australia (A good thing to keep in mind for Pacific Fighters...)

S!

Itto

BerkshireHunt
04-29-2004, 02:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by warpo:
I don't know if anyone will read this but I BEG the developers of the patch - if they want to put HF wings on a Spitfire, put them on the MkV model and call it a Mk VI (subject to the addition of a cockpit pressurising ram on the starboard engine panel) - or give the Mk IX a retracting tail wheel and call it a Mk VII. And if they do that, they might as well bring out the Mk VIII too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Nick Johnson<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
-------------------------

Two very good ideas. I think to make a VII you would really need extended tips on a 'B' or 'C' wing (not a 1944 'E' wing as shown in the screenshot). It's doubtful whether any VII had 'E' wings- the last VIIs were made in March '44. However, if we are to get a IX with 'C' wings then it would be very easy to make a pressurised HFVII with extended tips and 'C' wings.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mamal:
You´re right ... so we´ve got Spit Mk VIII ... at least we could fly Scapa Flow cover missions.
Steph
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
------------------------

Unfortunately, as shown in the screenshot the extended wing- tip Spit is wrong for a MkVIII. The longer tips were only fitted to 1942 vintage, early HFVIIIs (which had 'B' or 'C' wings) whereas the 'E' wing (which has been modelled) could only have been fitted to late VIIIs (late '44 early '45)- none of which had extended tips.
The armament of the 'C' and 'E' wings was, of course, substantially different, which makes it very difficult to reconcile 1C's model with a possible real- life Spitfire used by the RAF.
(Incidentally, from Feb '44, the Hispano MkV began to replace the MkII. I wonder if the 'E' wing has been modelled with the higher rate of fire, MKV?)

Still, even if they don't change anything an HFIXE with extended tips could have existed and is far less of a 'what if' plane than some others already in the game.