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VernalBreak
12-03-2015, 06:30 AM
Civilian killing?

VestigialLlama4
12-03-2015, 08:41 AM
If we are playing an Assassin then absolutely not.

LoyalACFan
12-03-2015, 08:59 AM
I think they should be immune to stabbing (that sh*t was annoying in the Altair/Ezio games where you'd have to lock onto an enemy during a chase to avoid accidentally assassinating random peasants in the street) but they shouldn't be totally invulnerable either. Kind of ruins the immersion when you have hordes of invincible civilians running around. Like if there's free-aiming or explosives, they should be able to die that way, but it penalizes you somehow (lack of health isn't sufficient if the games are going to continue being this easy). Maybe the three-strikes-you're-desyncronized system should come back.


If we are playing an Assassin then absolutely not.

And even if we aren't. It was stupid as hell that Shay abandoned the Assassins since they killed civilians, then immediately gained the ability to go on unpunished murder sprees in Manhattan.

And on the other end of the spectrum you have Edward, a freaking pirate... I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he definitely killed civilians on some of those merchant ships.

SixKeys
12-03-2015, 11:28 AM
Losing health is probably the best penalty. Whenever I use voltaic bombs in ACS, I always end up hitting some civilians who wander onto the scene. It's annoying as hell. And it doesn't make sense that you get the warning "assassins did not kill civilians" in every other situation except, of course, when they recklessly drive a cart down the street and slam into a hundred civilians. I realize that having the warning pop up during cart-driving would have made playing nearly impossible, but it just highlights the stupidity behind it.

Not everything we do in freeroam is canon either. If we accidentally kill some civilians, it's probably not what the assassin did, so chalk it up to an Animus glitch. There should be some kind of penalty because it is still part of the Creed, but this "desynchronize if you kill more than 3" BS has gotta go.

VestigialLlama4
12-03-2015, 12:53 PM
And even if we aren't. It was stupid as hell that Shay abandoned the Assassins since they killed civilians, then immediately gained the ability to go on unpunished murder sprees in Manhattan.

And on the other end of the spectrum you have Edward, a freaking pirate... I'm pretty sure it's safe to say he definitely killed civilians on some of those merchant ships.

Not really, pirates rarely killed merchant seamen, most of the violence (the little which they did) was against officers and ship captains for military. Towards merchant seaman, pirates usually pressed them into service, occassionally might have tortured them if they said no, or extorted protection money. Pirates appreciated that merchant seamen were the source of plunder so they didn't bully them too much.

It's a fact that historically Blackbeard is not known to have killed anyone until his final stand. Benjamin Hornigold was a gentleman pirate who once robbed a merchant ship for hats. Historical revisionism baby...yesterday's villains are not so villainous anymore.

cawatrooper9
12-03-2015, 03:27 PM
I think they should be immune to stabbing (that sh*t was annoying in the Altair/Ezio games where you'd have to lock onto an enemy during a chase to avoid accidentally assassinating random peasants in the street) but they shouldn't be totally invulnerable either.

Agreed. you shouldn't have to worry about accidently missing an air assassination in a crowd and killing a civilian (my Ezio playthroughs are full of hilariously failed air assassinations) or a kill in the streets while you're trying to stab a fleeing enemy. However, they should be able to die (even for dark, distraction purposes. Even my Altairs were known to sacrifice the life of a single civilian to use as a distraction for the greater good- though, come to think of it, that's still wildly out of character).

SixKeys
12-03-2015, 03:54 PM
Agreed. you shouldn't have to worry about accidently missing an air assassination in a crowd and killing a civilian (my Ezio playthroughs are full of hilariously failed air assassinations) or a kill in the streets while you're trying to stab a fleeing enemy. However, they should be able to die (even for dark, distraction purposes. Even my Altairs were known to sacrifice the life of a single civilian to use as a distraction for the greater good- though, come to think of it, that's still wildly out of character).

I wouldn't say wildly out of character - he did kill an innocent man in Solomon's Temple, after all - but as a rule, it shouldn't be allowed to happen. It is one of the tenets of the Creed, after all. Willfully breaking it would have consequences for you in the brotherhood.

Hans684
12-03-2015, 04:19 PM
Nothing new to both sides, for the "greater good" all that. One "sacrifice" to save many, so let's roll with it. Both sides to it after all, rules or no rule.

cawatrooper9
12-03-2015, 04:24 PM
I wouldn't say wildly out of character - he did kill an innocent man in Solomon's Temple, after all - but as a rule, it shouldn't be allowed to happen. It is one of the tenets of the Creed, after all. Willfully breaking it would have consequences for you in the brotherhood.

Nothing new to both sides, for the "greater good" all that. One "sacrifice" to save many, so let's roll with it. Both sides to it after all, rules or no rule.

Good points, both of them. But I do it a lot as Altair, even near the end of the game when he (and I) should know better.

I blame the overly observant and paranoid AI... an Assassin's gotta do what an Assassin's gotta do.

Hans684
12-03-2015, 04:34 PM
Good points, both of them. But I do it a lot as Altair, even near the end of the game when he (and I) should know better.

We know Altaïr killed 1 innocent in the begging so the Animus saying he hasn't killed Innocents is a lie, that guy was innocent and the Animus does't take away the restriction when it should. His record isn't clean either, he used the AOE on an angry mob after him when he easily could have escaped and guards who has done nothing. Let's say a rooftop guards, standing still on rooftops for hours, clearly an evil thing to do. The Animus isn't perfect either and has had glitches and stuff like that before, plus it's a simulator, things can be added and taken away. It's not a clear cut.


I blame the overly observant and paranoid AI... an Assassin's gotta do what an Assassin's gotta do.

For freedom.

D.I.D.
12-03-2015, 04:44 PM
Losing health is probably the best penalty. Whenever I use voltaic bombs in ACS, I always end up hitting some civilians who wander onto the scene. It's annoying as hell. And it doesn't make sense that you get the warning "assassins did not kill civilians" in every other situation except, of course, when they recklessly drive a cart down the street and slam into a hundred civilians. I realize that having the warning pop up during cart-driving would have made playing nearly impossible, but it just highlights the stupidity behind it.

Not everything we do in freeroam is canon either. If we accidentally kill some civilians, it's probably not what the assassin did, so chalk it up to an Animus glitch. There should be some kind of penalty because it is still part of the Creed, but this "desynchronize if you kill more than 3" BS has gotta go.

I wish they'd kept the restriction for the races. If you're trying to maintain the fastest speed by not hitting anything, the races become much more interesting. You can drive very accurately and at high speed by not using brakes ever; pumping the "faster!" control as you're cornering pulls you through your line perfectly well, even on narrow streets. Staying perfectly on the road and off the pavements ought to be a requirement for the assassin that the competitors don't respect.

The perk requirements of destroying hundreds and then thousands of street ornaments pretty much orders you to murder dozens of people though. That was a bad idea.

cawatrooper9
12-03-2015, 05:48 PM
We know Altaïr killed 1 innocent in the begging so the Animus saying he hasn't killed Innocents is a lie, that guy was innocent and the Animus does't take away the restriction when it should. His record isn't clean either, he used the AOE on an angry mob after him when he easily could have escaped and guards who has done nothing. Let's say a rooftop guards, standing still on rooftops for hours, clearly an evil thing to do. The Animus isn't perfect either and has had glitches and stuff like that before, plus it's a simulator, things can be added and taken away. It's not a clear cut.


True. Maybe that's why the game doesn't boot you after killing one, but after two or three (I forget which).


Or maybe that's just a convenient coincidence? :rolleyes:

Civona
12-03-2015, 08:07 PM
we shouldn't be able to kill crowd members unless they are logically designated as targets for the sake of the mission we are on. eg: witnesses to sensitive information, templar spies, or simply targets for whatever reason.

I don't want this series to be a mass murder sim but I also don't want the inherently messy and grey nature of being a literal assassin to be glossed over.

Hans684
12-03-2015, 08:29 PM
True. Maybe that's why the game doesn't boot you after killing one, but after two or three (I forget which).

The limit has always been 3, however since the Animus says they never did kill innocents you shouldn't even be able to kill one, regardless of method. As an example I tested in Syndicate by trowing a knive killing a civilian. Alright, fair enough, typical message afterwards. However once I threw a box of dynamite in the middle of the crowd the Animus said and did nothing. In short, inconsistent and unreliable. We play as people who think killing others based on a philosophical disagreement in how to get a better future is a good thing, who's "innocent" in the eyes of organizations of killers?


Or maybe that's just a convenient coincidence? :rolleyes:

Nothing is true :rolleyes:

DumbGamerTag94
12-03-2015, 10:45 PM
The Creed commands me to "stay my blade from the flesh of an innocent". Not stay my gun, my bombs, arrows, cannons, carriage, Greek fire throwers, or any other weapon. It just says to stay my blade. So as long as I don't use a hidden blade, sword, or knife I'm golden!

But seriously though I think you should be able to kill civilians. Collateral damage happens. I think to allow this but to also promote assassin like behavior you add a notoriety and honor mechanic almost identical to that used in Red Dead Redeption. A notoriety mechanic to punish you for illegal activities and not using social stealth. Where your bounty and the quickness by which you are detected by police/guards increases with each instance of witnessed crimes. This would encourage more stealth to be used.

To prevent killing innocents at will there needs to be an honor like RDR has. This will indicate your standing with the Assassins and the more honor you accumulate the better treatment you get, such as unlocking brotherhood mechanics, secret rooms and passages, gear, outfits, etc. whereas if you have low honor you lose acces to certain weapons and gear as well as higher prices at stores and greater police scrutiny. Since the assassins will not favor your behavior enough to use their underground connections to get you discounts or pay off police to ignore your activities.

BananaBlighter
12-03-2015, 11:23 PM
The Creed commands me to "stay my blade from the flesh of an innocent". Not stay my gun, my bombs, arrows, cannons, carriage, Greek fire throwers, or any other weapon. It just says to stay my blade. So as long as I don't use a hidden blade, sword, or knife I'm golden!

But seriously though I think you should be able to kill civilians. Collateral damage happens. I think to allow this but to also promote assassin like behavior you add a notoriety and honor mechanic almost identical to that used in Red Dead Redeption. A notoriety mechanic to punish you for illegal activities and not using social stealth. Where your bounty and the quickness by which you are detected by police/guards increases with each instance of witnessed crimes. This would encourage more stealth to be used.

To prevent killing innocents at will there needs to be an honor like RDR has. This will indicate your standing with the Assassins and the more honor you accumulate the better treatment you get, such as unlocking brotherhood mechanics, secret rooms and passages, gear, outfits, etc. whereas if you have low honor you lose acces to certain weapons and gear as well as higher prices at stores and greater police scrutiny. Since the assassins will not favor your behavior enough to use their underground connections to get you discounts or pay off police to ignore your activities.

Y'know, I hate levelling systems but something like this 'honor' system you speak of could be really cool. To keep the gear we have unlocked we must maintain our honor. Quite assassin-like and very immersive I must say.

phoenix-force411
12-04-2015, 01:12 AM
If you played AC1, you would know that killing a civilian will deplete your sync segments which is hazardous. Of course, the locking was really, really good, though. You could not kill anyone else besides your locked target unlike the rest of the other AC games. It was very problematic in the Ezio Trilogy, because you could still interact with other NPCs despite being locked onto another NPC. In ACIII, you had to manually lock a civilian or domesticated animal to kill them. It was a good thing they added restrictions to the rest of the AC games so that you would not accidentally kill civilians.

cawatrooper9
12-04-2015, 03:57 PM
The limit has always been 3, however since the Animus says they never did kill innocents you shouldn't even be able to kill one, regardless of method.

I think the Animus's fictional algorithm for this is actually based on whether or not the Assassin DID kill civilians. So, as people pointed out, Altair did- but only one, as far as I can tell, in the Temple of Solomon. So, if the algorithm were to hold true, then we should only be able to kill a single civvie before desynchronization.

On the other hand, Ezio killed a lot of people inadvertently when he smoked out Cappadocia. However, as Rogue shows, an Assassin's killing of an innocent only kicks into effect after the deed is done- so, much like how Shay could kill civilians only after killing so many at the hands of the Lisbon earthquake, Ezio shouldn't be allowed to kill any until after leaving Cappadocia (which doesn't leave much left of his trilogy, really). Unless he killed civilians some other way- would the riot at the market by the armory in Constantinople count?

SixKeys
12-04-2015, 06:52 PM
I think the Animus's fictional algorithm for this is actually based on whether or not the Assassin DID kill civilians. So, as people pointed out, Altair did- but only one, as far as I can tell, in the Temple of Solomon. So, if the algorithm were to hold true, then we should only be able to kill a single civvie before desynchronization.

On the other hand, Ezio killed a lot of people inadvertently when he smoked out Cappadocia. However, as Rogue shows, an Assassin's killing of an innocent only kicks into effect after the deed is done- so, much like how Shay could kill civilians only after killing so many at the hands of the Lisbon earthquake, Ezio shouldn't be allowed to kill any until after leaving Cappadocia (which doesn't leave much left of his trilogy, really). Unless he killed civilians some other way- would the riot at the market by the armory in Constantinople count?

I don't think indirect actions like the Constantinople riot count. Connor went around starting riots all the time and the result was always a bloodbath. Was he responsible? Technically yes, but he still didn't personally bloody his hands. This seems to be pretty rare in the brotherhood, though. Manipulating people into doing your dirty work is more of a Templar thing. Any time an assassin has done something that obviously endangers the lives of many civilians, it hasn't felt right. (I hate the riot and Cappadocia incidents in ACR.)

Hans684
12-04-2015, 08:13 PM
I think the Animus's fictional algorithm for this is actually based on whether or not the Assassin DID kill civilians.

The Animus is inconsistent on the matter, guards who has done nothing and prime example is the civilian killed by Altaïr in the begging. Or even better, once you replay the memories after finishing the memories there is no restriction at all and you can kill as many as you want without desynchronization. Or dynimate throwing at civilians from Syndicate with no desynchronization. However we also have writer's calling the shots on unexplained things or fan questions. Like Rogue's writer saying Shay's ability to kill innocents is an Animus Glich(not far-stretched either, his broken Paris memories and the fact that his memories had a virus in them shutting AE down) So everything can be blammed on Animus Gliches, like no desynchronization for dynimate throwing at civilians. The Animus is either broken and buggy as hell or everything is inconsistent.


So, as people pointed out, Altair did- but only one, as far as I can tell, in the Temple of Solomon. So, if the algorithm were to hold true, then we should only be able to kill a single civvie before desynchronization.

And you could add the preachers he bets up, interrogates and kill. Shouting ******** shouldn't warrant a death sentence, or a title for that matter. Truth be told we where never given a clear awnser on what the Animus classify as "innocent" and "guilty", I guess morals is a complex it can't solve. It's a machine after all.


On the other hand, Ezio killed a lot of people inadvertently when he smoked out Cappadocia. However, as Rogue shows, an Assassin's killing of an innocent only kicks into effect after the deed is done- so, much like how Shay could kill civilians only after killing so many at the hands of the Lisbon earthquake, Ezio shouldn't be allowed to kill any until after leaving Cappadocia (which doesn't leave much left of his trilogy, really). Unless he killed civilians some other way- would the riot at the market by the armory in Constantinople count?

The Lisbon earthquake is the only time we've seen Shay kill innocents(but indirectly and it was an accident because he didn't know), he's more humane and emphatectic than Connor, an apologist regardless of the title of his target, don't like killing people who he has no personal connection to like Adéwalé or Dorian and the fact that Rogue's writher said he didn't. We only have the earthquake to go with as reason for there being no restriction. And as all know the word of writers is law, regardless of how butthurt people are. Other than Ezio blowing up everything he can you also have Tarik, who was preordering an ambush against the Byzatines and Templars among them. However the Animus didn't react to Ezio actions so it's contradiction, so I'd say the Animus is a buggy mess or someone has been adding a "protagonist didn't kill innocents" messages. It's a simulator after all, they can add and take away whatever they'd like.

Sorrosyss
12-04-2015, 09:16 PM
Its fine as is I think. You will occasionally kill one by accident, so I wouldn't want the penalty to be too draconic.