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BM357_Raven
01-10-2004, 08:35 AM

BM357_Raven
01-10-2004, 08:35 AM

IV_JG51_Razor
01-10-2004, 08:39 AM
I use trim all the time. It just makes flying that much easier. I just wish the German fighters had aileron trim!

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blabla0001
01-10-2004, 08:41 AM
I got mine on a few keys like airelon and rudder trim and only use it to level the plane out so I don't have to compensate with the stick all the time for torque and such.

Other then that I don't use it to cheat into bat turns and such idiotic exploits.
Those are for the people that suck at this game and need it to feel better about themselves.

Recon_609IAP
01-10-2004, 08:56 AM
Although FB allow for this trim - this isn't very realistic is it?

I wish it could only trim within a certain small range and not allow for better turning.

Thoughts?

S!
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Arnie_OT
01-10-2004, 09:09 AM
Flying for a few months now and still busy getting into the sim really.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
I recently started using trim a little bit, because I noticed that sometimes I need to push the stick too hard to stay level and trim corrects it nicely.
So I actually wanna ask about it here, is trim in essence (real life? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) only used to change the standard positioning of rudder, elevators and the like? Only meant to be used as a tool to correct the plane when it doesnt fly straight by itself?

SeaFireLIV
01-10-2004, 09:14 AM
I generally fall into the 2nd choice. I use trim mostly for level flight, but sometimes it has proven invaluable for levelling my aircraft in combat, providing me with a measured aim.

As to realism, I have no idea how authentic to reality it is.

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BM357_Raven
01-10-2004, 09:44 AM
Depending on the plane, trim affects the control surfaces or trim tabs that in essence reduces the need for the pilot to continuously compensate with control inputs (moving the stick and rudder). This essentially will allow you to fly in a set direction, at a set alt, and at set speed without having to steer the plane, ie. you will be able to fly hands free.

I like to use trim to try to fly faster in the P-51..

A tip when you are flying straight and level that can make a long trip hands-free is to trim your plane as level as possible. Then, if you are nearly perfectly trimmed, but begin to roll a bit, use a little opposite rudder to correct yourself (gentle now).

Remember, too that airspeed is a big factor in trimming your plane. So, in some cases it is also helpful to slow down a degree or two or speed up an inch, rather than trying to get your incremental setting on your trim, just perfect. In my case, I have trim on my FFB2 slider and use my CH throttle for power. Because my trim wheel is so super-sensative, sometimes it is just easier for me to adjust my power settings slightly..http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If your plane is changing pitch, roll, bank you are not properly trimmed..


When you change your airspeed, you will need to adjust your trim to maintain or regain straight and level flight.

In combat, many pilots will manipulate their trim (usually elevator) settings to allow them to have a more stable/tighter turn. There is an argument about the accuracy of the FM in FB in respect to this that others may comment on...

All things equal, the pilot who uses trim will generally outrun you and probably outturn you in Forgotten Battles as well.

Someone may modify my statements somewhat, but for the most part I think you get the idea...

S~

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WhiteKnight77
01-10-2004, 10:01 AM
I use trim once in a while, but I don't see any benefit of it when after setting it, my planes revert to a nose up attitude and keep climbing.

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T_O_A_D
01-10-2004, 10:40 AM
I would have to choose the top two choices. I have it on a rotary as well as on the keyboard. I have the 10 key set uo with it. 7,8,9 are for elevator settings 4,,5,6 are for alerion, 1,2,3 are for Rudder

2,5,8 are the neutrals for all three.

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michapma
01-10-2004, 10:55 AM
I have it on a HOTAS slider, use it all the time and am totally dependent on it. That is, to help me make adjustments to keep my attitude right without having to hold the stick, not to perform the famous turns. I've done it once on a fun server just to experiment, but I don't think I even used it right.

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JG14_Josf
01-10-2004, 11:24 AM
I am finding it useful to trim for corner velocity or vertical maneuvering speed. With this done it becomes obvious when the plane is flying too slow to pitch up or too slow to black out. The nose drops when easing off the stick or in other words when trimmed for corner speed or vertical maneuvering speed the plane will fly level hands off but when the speed decreases below the trimmed speed the plane will tend to dive.
If I find myself pulling back on the stick just to stay level then a quick look at the air speed indicator confirms my condition of vulnerability or the general lack of energy.

So trim can be used as an air speed indicator or energy level detection device.

Trim is also required to make those high speed suprise bounce shots. Trimming to a hands off state allows the least amount of required input during the critical moment when pressing the trigger and cannon button.

Trim is a real neccessity now that the 109s have the concrete elevator syndrome. Level trim settings at or above corner velocity do not allow enough control to cause black out and therefore do not allow enough control to maximize turn rate or minimize turn radius.

Decreasing the angle of attack of the horizontal stabilizer or in otherwords trimming for slower speeds is now a requirement in the 109s to maximize turn performance. In vertical maneuvering the need to constantly trim the 109 is essential for maximum performance and accurate gunnery for me.

The Range knob on my Cougar throttle has a detent at 50% rotation movement that serves to I.D. a specific speed trim setting. Rotating the knob a few degrees one way or the other from the detent in advance of potential required trim changes can provide the neccessary control when it is needed.

It seems likely to me that the real 109 pilots would also be busy rotating the trim wheel if their elevators also suffered from the contrete elevator syndrome.

XyZspineZyX
01-10-2004, 11:56 AM
It's esstential to trim the plane. Otherwise you create un-needed drag.
Elevator trim is used by all real pilots along with rudder and aeileron trim. You can't fly effectivly without it.
Mine is assinged to a rotray on my HOTAS. It helps in diving when ground-pounding and is useful during takeoff with heavy ordinace loads.

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Deathsledge
01-10-2004, 12:57 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif......i remember nbot too long ago one could get blasted for bringing up this topic.

Eagle_361st
01-10-2004, 01:26 PM
WIthout your aircraft properly trimmed you cannot get the maximum performance out of it. I am always playing with my various trim settings trying to squeeze every little bit I can out of my Jug or Pony. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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RayBanJockey
01-10-2004, 01:46 PM
If you don't use trim, then when you pull back on the stick at speed your plane harldy moves.

It's a must for all online aces to exploit in combat maneuvers.

I even take it a step further. I talk to my mechanic and implement the RBJ Shift(tm). This way, I actually have to pull the trim back to fly level at speed (instead of how most people have to push it forward, and thus reducing their turning ability). Now I can do bat turns at will and not have to wait a half an hour for the trim to be in the best position for turns. (my preset trim for level flight is also close to the prper trim for turning at high speeds)

I don't know wheter to thank Oleg or curse him for this (slow trim). On one hand, it enables me to fly much better than other people than before (because it requires a special configuration that is not commonly known). But on the other hand, it should not be this way and overall performance is not as good as in IL2.

I would rather just have everybody be able to simply put their trim on a slider and fight on equal terms, and with better precision... like it used to be in IL2. (than the way it is now in FB, kind of half baked, and only for "those in the know")

I don't view it as a cheat (it's just a control surface that anyone can use), but it's kind of like this (what Oleg did):
Suppose there is a cheat that anyone can use by simply assigning and pressing a button. Then it gets "fixed", but it is still alive and well for those who do a little extra work (reconfiguring).

Is this better than before? I would say NO. It reduces the control/precision for all, yet rewards the exploiters even more (relative).

http://www.geocities.com/adlabs6/B/bin/testsig.gif
To anyone who wants to take away my trim on a slider, "From My Cold Dead HANDS (http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf)."

Korolov
01-10-2004, 01:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RayBanJockey:
If you don't use trim, then when you pull back on the stick at speed your plane harldy moves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, its usually easier just to choose a plane that has better high speed handling.

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Platypus_1.JaVA
01-10-2004, 03:31 PM
I use trimming all the time, seems a waste of all the pretty sliders the X45 has if you wouldn't do it! I even painted a red dash for marking the middle (neutral) postion of my slider http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Anyways, there is no point in NOT using trim. It is not good for you flying if you constantly need to push the stick to fly level. In MSFS, there was a gauge that setted elevator trim, along with the movements of the stick, it worked like a charm there.

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Chuck_Older
01-10-2004, 05:11 PM
On my X45, I use rotary one as rudder trim and I use my mouse wheel for elevator trim. I use the elevator trim whenever I feel the need to trim, just like I change the rudder trim when landing or taking off.

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horseback
01-10-2004, 05:15 PM
In RL, a pilots has to constantly fiddle with his trim, adjusting to throttle setting and speed. I use a CH Products HOTAS setup, and since I have two POV hat switches, the one on the joystick (harder to reach for POV purposes) has had its' cardinal points assigned to the corresponding elevator and rudder trim.

In other words, clicking it forward gives me nosedown trim, clicking it back, noseup. Similarly, the left side is for left rudder trim and right for right rudder. It's not quite as smooth as a slider, but it works well for me. I can adjust the elevator for turns or climb easily, and the rudder as I work the throttle.

I like it, it's more efficient than the keyboard, and it adds to the immersion factor, in my opinion. I say, if it's modelled, use it.

Cheers

horseback

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p1ngu666
01-10-2004, 05:37 PM
i use it for level or a climb, no bat turn hax0ry :\

tttiger
01-10-2004, 10:54 PM
First, RBJ, I believe all your ranting about how slider trim is a good thing (in the face of many complaining it is a cheat) led Oleg to over-react and make it impossible by making the trim so clumsy and unresponsive. We all have you to thank for the crappy trim in this sim.

Second, a point no one has made about using trim when bombing from your fighter:

To be accurate you have to experiment and practice (QMB is good)to determine the best dive angle and speed and aim point on your reflective sight for any given aircraft.

Then, while on your way to the target in a real mission, make a practice dive at that speed and angle and trim the plane so it is neutral in a dive. Leave it at those setting en route to the target. The trick is to "fly the bomb to the target" by diving in a trim that allows you to drop the bomb with no pressure on the stick or rudder pedals. The only thing you should need to touch is the bomb release if the trim is set up correctly and use the same speed and dive angle all the time.

This isn't easy to do now that the trim has been made so sloppy, again thanks to RBJ and his trim slide advocacy. But it really will make your bombing more accurate and it really is how it was done in real life. The only difference in real life is that the trim is more predictable and you can just set it without doing a practice dive.

I flew in a Mossie Squad in WarBirds for several years and we discovered this in reading up on the FBVI Mossie and how the bombs were aimed. We set up our virtual Mossies this way and found it really works but does require frequent offline practice. It seems to work in FB as well, although, again, getting the planes trimmed can be a real pain.

ttt

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[This message was edited by tttiger on Sat January 10 2004 at 10:06 PM.]

[This message was edited by tttiger on Sat January 10 2004 at 10:07 PM.]

F19_Ob
01-11-2004, 04:54 AM
I only use trim on takeoff and landing and to adjust level flight or dives and climbs.

I ve never tried "trim batturns" and never will.
Who really wants to win over an opponent this way???

I dont care if others do, let them, its just not interresting to me.
Im confident in winning battles anyway, and bat turns would just look silly on a messerschmitt http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

on my tracks from greatergreen i've never seen any axis plane do this and no allied plane needs to since they all turn better than the axis.

so explain the point of this.

If Any axis flyer would be caught doing such a thing it surely would be embarrassing for him,
and if an allied would do it, well,...just silly, since they dont need it.

RayBanJockey
01-11-2004, 05:27 AM
There really is no such thing as "bat-turns".

There is just the hardest turn possible.

People call it "bat-turns" to exagerate and make it sound like something bad.

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To anyone who wants to take away my trim on a slider, "From My Cold Dead HANDS (http://www.talonse.com/supergreg.swf)."

carg0009
01-13-2004, 03:23 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by SeaFireLIV:
I generally fall into the 2nd choice. I use trim mostly for level flight, but sometimes it has proven invaluable for levelling my aircraft in combat, providing me with a measured aim.

As to realism, I have no idea how authentic to reality it is.

Using trim in flight is very realistic in all aspects of aviation. Even proper trimming of a light aircraft makes it more stable and easier to fly this translates into less fatigue for the pilot.Also there are several reported incidents of damaged aircraft returning to base after having their control surfaces shot mostly away and the only means of control were the miraculously undamaged trim tabs. Trim cables being seperate from the main control cable or torque tube allowed this.
Also, I get the opportunity to mock dogfight in AT-6 Texans on several ocassions and we use trim to make the aircraft more stable as some have mentioned and even to get a tighter turn going. People say this is cheating in FB but in reality it was a fact of life in combat flying. Trim controls are generally in easy reach and easy to work even in difficult situations.

Udidtoo
01-13-2004, 03:46 PM
As many already stated I find it great for those long between waypoints missions but my favorite use is this.
When playing offline campaigns and the enemy AI goes into that low large turning radial crap that I call the "catch me if you can" manuver.
If you've really practiced up on your deflection shooting with a steady hand and the proper trim you can make some incredible long range kills when the AI sticks to this pattern.
Same when it does that " See if all of you can follow me up here" climbing spiral. Trimming gives me that last little adjustment I need to home those rounds into a wing root


..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

a_10thunderbolt
01-13-2004, 04:38 PM
i have to say i use it all the time especially for climbing and level flight

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Snoop_Baron
01-13-2004, 04:43 PM
Many pilots used trim through out flight in WWII prop planes including during turns and other manuvers. It is a misconception that trim is only for take-off, landing, and level flight. A coworker was a Navy fighter pilot and he flew the T-28C which was a 1,425 hp prop plane used after WWII for training. It is very similar to what we have in the game (designed in the 40s). We talked about this in detail and he trimmed constantly while flying the plane and not just when flying level.

In the sim I use elevator trim pretty frequently. It makes flying smoother and keeps my shots steady. I haven't been using rudder or alieron trim (although I've tried). Haven't gotten enough benefit out of it to justify the pilot workload.

WUAF_Toad
01-15-2004, 03:39 PM
Shouldn't blame the players exploiting the trim, blame FB for allowing a Zero to turn at high speed like a 190 by so called "trimming". Too bad the only slider I have I use it for throttle, otherwise I'll be doing what RBJ is doing. I personally trim my plane for high speed level flight and leave it there.

carg0009
01-15-2004, 05:10 PM
I don't understand what the big deal is about trim. Its a fact of life when flying any real aircraft. You use it constantly to make the aircraft more comfortable and stable to fly. If your going into a combat situation you will trim your aircraft to the ideal settings so it handles the best in combat. In most instances positive or up-trim is used because most combat manuevers are positive G, therefore you are pulling back-pressure (nose-up) on the stick. To pull up-trim to increase your turn rate is not cheating, its real life. You use all assets available to make your aircraft preform at its optimum level. Trim wheels on many combat a/c are within reach and in many instances it was the trim tabs that kept a crippled a/c in the air long enough for the pilot to get it home. Trim is a fact of real life, the designers of FB have done well to include this in the game. It adds greatly to the realism.

BM357_Raven
01-17-2004, 03:27 PM
If only life in general came with a trim tab eh? Or is that what beer is for?

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ucanfly
01-17-2004, 03:51 PM
Use rudder trim (keyboard) on P_51 when I start off and use elevator trim on a mousewheel since my left hand is on the mouse most of the time anyway. The trim delay kinda screws up trim accuracy though, but it helps with some planes especially FWs. Only use aileron trim if I take damage (and it's available).

flyingskid2
01-20-2004, 02:47 PM
i have it now on my range knob on my thrustmaster TQS. the range knob has a center detent, so i know the center position by feel. much much better than when i had trim controls on buttons. now i use trim all the time. didn't make me better online though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BM357_Raven:
Just wondering what percentage of people use (or rather dont use) trim in FB and how significant the population perceives it to be..

I'm sure this has been polled before, but I missed it so here it is again.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

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I don't like these options you should have one for "I have it on a slider but do not use it for combat purposes" or something like that.I put it on a slider becuase it makes it extremly accessible.I use it for climbing after take off or to simply maintain a certain dive rate or climb rate.Using it to fly your plane is silly.Feel free to do this.You'll find your self out of control spinning or blacking out and slamming into the dirt.Cheat?Hardly.pfffffft p.s. oh yeah real ac have trim knobs much like a slider it only makes since to do this on your controller.

SodBuster43
01-20-2004, 03:11 PM
I only use the trim as needed to achieve level flight at a given velocity, etc. Otherwise, you would need to apply yaw pitch and roll control inputs to compensate for an improperly trimmed aircraft.

A properly trimmed aircraft will glide through turns with ease in lieu of being somewhat unstable.

I use the default key input setup for making trim adjustments.

gooseman1981
01-20-2004, 03:18 PM
yeah lol ppl who do this need to take the tutorial flight with the cessna in msfs2002.lol.then all these ppl arguing over it will know why it is really there.It is used to determine your speed at which you climb more than anything else.i.e. 300kph at full throttle (not WEP)auto pitch in a g-14 climbs great.in other words trim your ac until you find it climbs best at a certain speed.i may be off a little but thats the jist!

[This message was edited by gooseman1981 on Tue January 20 2004 at 02:27 PM.]

[This message was edited by gooseman1981 on Tue January 20 2004 at 02:28 PM.]

JG53Hunter
01-20-2004, 03:48 PM
Try to fly FW190 and to hit something with her guns without trimming http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
There you got your answere.

Stalker58
01-21-2004, 01:30 AM
..or try B&Z with Bf109 without trim and you soon get better understanding what "lawn dart" really means...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Altitude, speed, manoeuvre and.... CRASH!

BM357_Raven
01-21-2004, 09:12 PM
gooseman wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't like these options you should have one for "I have it on a slider but do not use it for combat purposes" or something like that.I put it on a slider becuase it makes it extremly accessible.I use it for climbing after take off or to simply maintain a certain dive rate or climb rate.Using it to fly your plane is silly.Feel free to do this.You'll find your self out of control spinning or blacking out and slamming into the dirt.Cheat?Hardly.pfffffft p.s. oh yeah real ac have trim knobs much like a slider it only makes since to do this on your controller.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if you delve into any good books about fighter pilots (biographies/autobio's) you will see they laid on the trim all the time, including combat situaitons..just an FYI http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Combat situations in a high torque plane are probably 180 degrees different than tooting around in a 172SP.. I make comparisons to my flight experiences too, but still I cant really speak any further than my experiences in a simulated fighter plane. When I fly a cessna in RL, the plane almosts sits still comapred to the forward sense of motion and sense of change ingame.. In some ways I can say that FB is more fun.. The implementation of trim in the game has very real results in the game. So that makes the use of trim very practical.

As you may change speeds very quickly in a fighter, it would make sense to be be ready to trim the plane on a continuous basis. Dont you think? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Just friendly debate and welcome the discussion.

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BM357_Vulture
01-21-2004, 09:50 PM
I use it most of the time,but its settings seem to
be sort hit or miss,what works for one flight may not work the next time.