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zugfuhrer
03-18-2004, 06:27 AM
The damage model for the oilcooler and engine for the Me109 family, the Il2 and the Mig seems ok to me.

Some hits in the engine or the cooler and it starts to smoke.

The FW seems to take many hits in the engine without the pilot getting a direct notice that the engine is badly damage, only arcade message like RTB, but the engine loose a lot of power.

Perhaps the engine should sound bad as a warning. Some hits right into the air intake
should damage some cylinders I think.

The Yak,La and the Lagg seems to take many hits in the engine compartment without any clear signs of damage.

The damage of a 20mm high explosive projectile.

Many times I have noticed (The arrows in the arcade mode) that fewer than three hits from a 20mm gun in the rudder, elevator or ailerons dont seems to inflict the flying.

If it got a hit with a 20mm wouldnt it be destroyed? There are a lot of stress on the construction.

If a 20mm hits 20mm wooden board, the board gets splintered.
If it hits a double metallic construction, like the door of a car, there are lots of damage on the inner plate.
How is this calculated, are there any pictures of damages of a 20mm hit.

[This message was edited by zugfuhrer on Thu March 18 2004 at 01:24 PM.]

zugfuhrer
03-18-2004, 06:27 AM
The damage model for the oilcooler and engine for the Me109 family, the Il2 and the Mig seems ok to me.

Some hits in the engine or the cooler and it starts to smoke.

The FW seems to take many hits in the engine without the pilot getting a direct notice that the engine is badly damage, only arcade message like RTB, but the engine loose a lot of power.

Perhaps the engine should sound bad as a warning. Some hits right into the air intake
should damage some cylinders I think.

The Yak,La and the Lagg seems to take many hits in the engine compartment without any clear signs of damage.

The damage of a 20mm high explosive projectile.

Many times I have noticed (The arrows in the arcade mode) that fewer than three hits from a 20mm gun in the rudder, elevator or ailerons dont seems to inflict the flying.

If it got a hit with a 20mm wouldnt it be destroyed? There are a lot of stress on the construction.

If a 20mm hits 20mm wooden board, the board gets splintered.
If it hits a double metallic construction, like the door of a car, there are lots of damage on the inner plate.
How is this calculated, are there any pictures of damages of a 20mm hit.

[This message was edited by zugfuhrer on Thu March 18 2004 at 01:24 PM.]

VW-IceFire
03-18-2004, 06:58 AM
There are indeed plenty of pictures of aircraft hit by 20mm, 30mm, and other types of fire. Surprisingly, more aircraft survive 30mm hits than most people would like to believe. Aircraft aren't tough specifically but they tend to survive more firepower than many anticipate.

A prime example is the splintering wood. Wood does splinter yes, especially when hit by explosive rounds, and while I'm not an expert on aircraft construction or damage resistance I have read that the Delta would used in most or all of the Russian wooden aircraft is quite a bit tougher than anyone would expect. The LaGG was reputed as being a fairly tough plane in Russian service and yet it didn't have extreme amounts of armor plating...it was just thick Delta wood. The stuffs pretty strong apparently.

Now onto the issue of 20mm rounds onto a rudder. There is the possibility that a single 20mm round will blow off a rudder...that CAN happen, but I think its probably unlikely. If the bullet deflects, if somehow the explosive power of a round is deflected or only partially absorbed, if the round is armor piercing and it goes right on through...there are many possibilities.

The FB DM seems quite complicated and complex, well over what I can understand, but I know that things work fairly well most of the time. There is alot of variation and you can be sure that hitting a plane will produce some level of radom results (at least from a human perspective).

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PikeBishop
03-18-2004, 07:14 AM
I would just like to make a point about gameplay here..........
As we are at best uncertain about reality and hit probability / damage probability I think it is important that we don't end up with a situation where new players give up after 30 seconds because by the time they realise they are being fired upon they are dead all the time! A balance must be struck so that players are given time to implement manoeuvers. I think there is a good balance at the moment.

regards,

SLP

AWL_Frog
03-18-2004, 07:20 AM
Oh, while we are at it, am I the only one to think that the common believe "wood equals old equals easy to shoot down" is a bit, well, let's say simplified?

There are severla reasons why metal was preferred over wood in constructing airplanes, metal is easier to shape, and the plane can be build lighter, but I just don't think that the ability to absorb damage was a factor.

On the contrary, when a HE shell hits wood I think the material is quite suited to absorb the energy locally by deforming (all flexible fibres), while metal is just torn apart, not hindering the shockwave much. Remember that a plane is not bu√¬*ld from steel, but light aluminium alloys.

Flamin_Squirrel
03-18-2004, 07:27 AM
I have to disagree with you Pike. The people who buy sims want realism, and also have the patience to learn how to play them. The game play aspect comes inherantly from sim. If you dont have the patience to learn then sims probably arent going to be your cup of tea.

mike_espo
03-18-2004, 08:08 AM
When I first installed AEP, I thought the DM of all planes mostly spitfire, was off. I went offline and did gunnery practice on spit V and it seemed that 30mm rounds would not kill it. However, I kept at it, and found that with practice, I could kill them with 12.7mm rounds-IF you hit it in the right place. with deflection and in the wing root or engine.

So overall, I think the DM in AEP is right on. It is a little more challenging to get kills, but I think it is more realistic.

crazyivan1970
03-18-2004, 08:41 AM
I for once believe that DM in AEP or previous versions of IL2/FB is too forgiving and that applies to all planes. Just my humble opinion.

V!
Regards,

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Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

clint-ruin
03-18-2004, 08:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:
I for once believe that DM in AEP or previous versions of IL2/FB is too forgiving and that applies to all planes. Just my humble opinion.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd agree with that, but I don't think it's 'too forgiving' by a grotesque amount. JTD mentioned in his tests that it usually feels like the target should have fallen apart 1-2 rounds earlier than it did, but that's not a whole lot. AP/kinetic damage is represented much better than HE damage just through the workings of all DMs.

The one thing I think would be nice to see is an ability to light structures on fire - not just fuel/oil/coolant related systems, but to actually set the skin on fire. IE, use a 1/4th scale sized 'fire' texture effect on the skin that would burn on for, I dunno, 20 seconds after a hit, and do gradual damage to a structure afterwards. Also think the HE effects would 'feel' better if the frag pattern looked more like a cone rather than the sphere it does now.

Certainly the way users have to hit the same section of an aircraft repeatedly and rely on fairly minor fragment damage for blast/area effects is annoying some of them :&gt;

The visible 3d models certainly seem a lot more detailed in BOB, hopefully the DMs will be of a similar quality.

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heywooood
03-18-2004, 09:26 AM
There seem to be a few compromises to make the
sim/game more playable - if it were 100% accurate - fewer people would buy it.

and we would need way more body bags.

Gunner_361st
03-18-2004, 09:36 AM
I like the general damage modeling in AEP. As an early poster said, look at WWII guncam footage... Usually the stricken victim goes down in flames or spins out of control. There are some where the plane is torn apart, but it really was not the norm it seems.
and its not really the norm now in FB.

As for LaGG's taking damage, I did a couple of tests shooting at 'em with the Me109G6. I did get glancing cannon hits on the wings, which showed no visible damage.

Got to take into consideration that visible damage/real damage are not the same, and the programming to make it the same I would think be very taxing on home PC's. I could be wrong though.

As for the engine, hehe, also in the track is when I get a nice short burst directly into the engine block from below on a LaGG-3, needless to say, engine kaput immediately. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If anyone wants it, just leave their MSN name or an email here, I'll send the two tracks to ya. Version 2.0 AEP, btw.

Captain Gunner of the 361st vFG

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zugfuhrer
03-18-2004, 02:21 PM
I agree that the damagemodel is forgiving.
If it would be realistic, like a hit that penetrated the shell? of the engine and made damage would conk out the engine, should disturb the game to much.
There are few areas in the engine that dont suffer greatly from the hit of a mashingun.

According to my experience there is rarely deflection with 20mm shells.

I have seen it only when the target was on a raft and the sea was calm.

There is sometimes hard to se what is a projectile and what is the tracer, but most shells got a selfdestruction fuse so it will blow up when the rotation decrease. And when landing in water it can be told what was a dud and what was fragments.

I would say that the normal case is that the 20mm HE-projectile (we call it granate) will detonate on impact.

The detonator takes up such a large frontal area of the projectile so the normal case is explosion.

Sometimes I have shoot with the 20mm gun of Armoured Personal Carrier it agains a wrecked car.
Often the door was hit, sometimess the explosion push away the clothing that was attached inside the door and shrapnels penetrated the door on the other side, and smashed the windows. There where no big holes they looked like a the stab of knife.
The in-hole was not much bigger than 20mm but made a bulge on the plate. I assume that the projectile exploded emidiate inside the plate.

It would certainly be interesting to look at a closeup picture of battledamage. But all that is able to take pictures of returned :-)
The rudder/elevator construction have to sustain stress. Perhaps a damage should make the construction to collapse.

The detonator today is so sensitive that hard rain makes it detonate in the air.
Thats why peacetime shooting is restricted in rain.

[This message was edited by zugfuhrer on Thu March 18 2004 at 01:29 PM.]

WWMaxGunz
03-18-2004, 02:47 PM
i see from playbacks that AI pilots and crew are very hard to incapacitate or kill. Even when a 20mm HE explodes right next to the heads and fragment lines go through... no result. Many times bullet or AP lines through the firing hole and gunner but no result. It seems there is a "window" through which the pilots and crew can be killed and that is it but I say seems only. HE bursts on cockpit side glass and skin next to pilot and crew... no result. But one 7mm shot to my armorglass windshield and I am PK!

If AI pilots were to get incapacitated or killed in a realistic manner then the planes would spin down more in proportion to real up until the player got too good and then they would be too easy. Maybe if there was an option for ironman AI's?


Neal

609IAP_Recon
03-18-2004, 06:39 PM
Personally, I think a few aircraft should have tougher DM: Lagg3, P47, FW190 -- what I consider to be more bomber killers.

The fighters IMO should all resemble the 109 or mig DM's.

I think 109 DM is actually the best one in the game.

Salute!

JG50_Recon

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zugfuhrer
03-19-2004, 02:53 AM
As far as I know the Lagg3 dont seems to have the complex damagemodel.
The inline engine of the lagg is not more weaker than a radial engine, and it is tough enough.

The Me/Mig has got a good engine damage model. All a/c should have it that way.

No airplanes got a damagemodel for the radiators and that is very bad.

Bullets can pass throug it without loosing cooling liquid.
I think that the bombers are to tough.

Functio
03-19-2004, 05:16 AM
I'm not sure the damage model of the 109's engine is all that good - often all it takes is one or two small-calibre hits on the nose for the oil-cooler to be knocked out - which doesn't seem to happen to some other planes with similar equipment in the same location.

zugfuhrer
03-20-2004, 08:36 AM
Take a gun and shoot two shoots into a car-engine and se how far you can go.
The Me is correct I think most others are not. It is them that should have the same damagemodel, if they didnt have protection around the engine.
No aircraft seems to have the radiators included, witch is not so good.

mike_espo
03-20-2004, 10:31 AM
I thought all planes had the same DM...http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

zugfuhrer
03-21-2004, 04:55 AM
Sort of the same mike.
I think that all fighters oilcoolers are week points. The Me/La/IL2 starts smoking after being hit there but the area seems to be different. The La5 got a small cooler and the La7 got it moved backwards, The Me "oil smearing" area is big because the oiltank/cooler is in the nose.
The P40/Me and Mig starts smoking after a few hits in the engine area, but the La/Yak can take many hits there, especially from the 7mm Me Mg.
Perhaps where their engine well protected.

What is highest on my "wishlist" is that the radiators should start leak cooling liquid when hit.