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View Full Version : Oleg, can we have the FM done right for the US planes



XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted on 08/17/03 01:18PM (server time: GMT 0)

I have tride the P-40 yesterday and my god it was evan more useless than the P-47. The P-39 is slow, i fall asleep while flying it. I don't under stand why the north american planes are so usless.
Why are the Russion plane's so easy to fly? In real life are they realy that much better than the American planes.

I find that the only plane i can use and compete with ant one is the LA-7.

Any i thought i would share my ranting.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:05 PM
Originally posted on 08/17/03 01:18PM (server time: GMT 0)

I have tride the P-40 yesterday and my god it was evan more useless than the P-47. The P-39 is slow, i fall asleep while flying it. I don't under stand why the north american planes are so usless.
Why are the Russion plane's so easy to fly? In real life are they realy that much better than the American planes.

I find that the only plane i can use and compete with ant one is the LA-7.

Any i thought i would share my ranting.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:10 PM
Silent I been flying the P39 It Kicks arse you must be doing something wrong

as for p47 & p40 well you might have a point in some cases

Roll rate P47 but its an awsome Bomber !!!

I never fly that p40 COUGH

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:15 PM
The P39 is an excellent aircraft, the P40 is alright (just about), and provided you can get to a good altitude the P47 is a brilliant fighter (especially in a dive.) I don't see the problem with the American fighters. Remember, the P39 and P40 were built before the war, so you would expect the La7 to be better (it was built towards the end of the war.)

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To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:17 PM
VF_310thSilent wrote:
- Originally posted on 08/17/03 01:18PM (server time:
- GMT 0)

I have tride the P-40 yesterday and my god
- it was evan more useless than the P-47. The P-39 is
- slow,

Roll rate also seems overmodelled, to about the same
extent that the P47's is undermodelled.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:20 PM
If you say P-39 is slow, you must have landing gear down http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



Message Edited on 08/17/0305:40PM by Stellar73

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 03:26 PM
It is well known that the P-40 was a pretty mediocre fighter, though a good pilot can still get kills in it.

The P-47 was no great shakes in low-alt air-to-air either: it was a better fighter up high, but its radial engine and ability to survive small caliber AAA hits made it a much better fighter-bomber than the P-51. Give the bolt enough of an altitude advantage and she's a threat.

As for the Airacobra, I can't understand what problem you have with it. The thing performs beautifully in this game if you don't take liberties with it.

I expect there will be a lot of unhappiness with the Mustang when it comes out. It was a fantastic airplane, no doubt about it, but it was fantastic because it could compete with just about anything (if used properly) at a range far beyond almost any other single-engined fighter. It was quite fast and handled well, and did almost everything well. But it was not as nimble down low as some of the much lighter Russian fighters, and the slower it gets, the less good it gets compared to them. Anybody who expects it to perform like a Yak or La slow and down low is in for a disappointment.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:34 PM
Read up on the history of the planes modeled in FB so far.

The P-40 was considered an average fighter plane which had only a few redeeming qualities in the various theaters that it was fighting in...the primary redeeming quality was large quantities of the plane being available (especially for US forces in the Pacific that needed planes in late 1941/early 1942 and fast). Pilots apparently felt that they could out dive most contemporary Japaneese aircraft as well and it was fairly robust in construction. But it was no real performer.

The P-39 was a largely flawed airplane that the British detested, the Americans used only because of necessity in the early parts of the war, and for whatever reason the Soviets found to be useful. But it had its problems...from nasty stall characteristics, to the gun jamming on a very regular basis, and so on and so forth.

The P-47 was a widely used fighter, escort fighter, and fighter bomber which was reliable, tough, and could outdive pretty much everything else that it was faced with. Once again, not a nimble plane with stunning manuverability or incredible climb rate. It was nice and tough and there's varrying reasons why it was called the Jug but one of them would be because it was a Juggernaught of the air.

So while there are errors with the P-47's roll rate...the rest of the plane is pretty much right and so are the others. Apparently some of the P-39 models may be a bit over-done by probably not by much. The nasty stall is something to watch out for.

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 04:52 PM
IMO problem liesin the fact that tere is only a few full real servers and in those with externals you can dive on enemy fighters all night, they need only F6 to be aware of your intetion to intercept and then i the right time perform high G turn and it"s all over, you can yoom up again but that about all..

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:26 PM
But, but... They're American aircraft! Designed and made by Americans! How could they possibly be inferior to German and Russian aircraft?

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:37 PM
Hmm what do you expect...

P-40E Kittyhawk IA
Wg/Po = 7.3 (lb/hp)
Wg/S = 35.6 (lb/sq.ft.)
Vmax = 361 mph @ 15.000ft
Time of climb to 15.000ft = 7.2 min
Initial Rate of climb = 2100 ft/min
Service ceiling = 30.000ft

P-40M Warhawk (Kittyhawk III)
Wg/Po = 7 (lb/hp)
Wg/S = 35.6 (lb/sq.ft)
Vmax = 362 mph @ 15.000ft
Time of climb to 15.000ft = 7.5 min
Initial Rate of climb = 2300 ft/min
Service Ceiling = 38.000ft

P-39Q Airacobra
Wg/Po = 6.3 (lb/hp)
Wg/S = 35.4 (lb/sq.ft.)
Vmax = 376 mph @ 15.000ft
Time of climb to 15.000ft = 6 min
Initial rate of climb = 2500 ft/min
Service Ceiling = 35.000ft


As the P-40E is roughly comparable to the Bf-109 F series regarding the time of service introduction into the armed forces, here are some specs for the Bf-109 F-4 for comparison:

Wg/Po = 4.6 (lb/hp)
Wg/S = 35.8 (lb/sq.ft.)
Vmax = 390 mph @ 20.000ft
Time of climb to 15.000ft = 4.8 min
Initial rate of climb = 3400 ft/min
Service Ceiling = 39.000ft


Although the P-39Q and P-40M were later design versions (first P-39Q´s delivered to the Army Air Forces in mid 1943, P-40M introduced at the end of 1942), both are inferior in flight performance to the Bf-109 F-4, which was put into service in 1941. Both, the P-40M and P-39Q should have a slower max. speed than a Bf-109 F4, less acceleration, a considerably lower rate of climb, lower service ceiling, while initial turning performance should be about equal.

============================
When it comes to testing new aircraft or determining maximum performance, pilots like to talk about "pushing the envelope." They're talking about a two dimensional model: the bottom is zero altitude, the ground; the left is zero speed; the top is max altitude; and the right, maximum velocity, of course. So, the pilots are pushing that upper-right-hand corner of the envelope. What everybody tries not to dwell on is that that's where the postage gets canceled, too.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:40 PM
AeroBob wrote:
- But, but... They're American aircraft! Designed
- and made by Americans! How could they
- possibly be inferior to German and Russian
- aircraft?
-

Lol /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
I think a "sarcasm" disclaimer is required here though, people will probably be all over you for that one /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 06:52 PM
Captain Marvel required at once!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif



- Dux Corvan -

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:10 PM
What's undermodeled is the american pilots. So learn to fly!

I'd understand the rant about the P47, but yet it's a very powerfull fighter, and it was even before the patch *IF USED PROPERLY* The P40 sucked before the patch, but it seems to have much improved. The P39 is the oddest claim of the lot. Many people complain that it's overmodeled. This is one of the good overal planes in the game. They can do most things pretty well! It certainly does not match the awful reputation that the plane had in the west.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:23 PM
nicolas10 wrote:
- "The P39 is the oddest claim of the lot. (...) They can do most things pretty well! It certainly does not match the awful reputation that the plane had in the west."

The main reason for that reputation was that pilots didn't like that big engine right after the seat. They didn't want to be crushed by it in a crash landing.

Apart from this, P-39 was a competent fighter (a little underpowered in the last versions), nothing from out of this world, but it still could make the job in the proper hands, using the proper tactics.




- Dux Corvan -

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XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:33 PM
You blew your complaint right out of the water when you included the P39.

Right now, by almost all accounts, that thing is supremely overmodelled. Slow? You gotta be kidding: the N1 turns *circles* around every plane it encounters, literally.

I don't know what you're expecting from a P-40, but 'worldbeater' should not be it. After 1942, that plane is pretty much outclassed by any Russian plane in the air, let alone their Luftwaffe counterparts. Yes, the Yaks and Lavochkins *were* that much better...and yes, they *were* pretty easy to fly.

The P-47 debate continues, mostly centered around its roll rate. However, I have yet to see one at or above (or diving in from) 5km, above which the Jug is in its element. If you're down low in a Jug trying to dogfight it, look in the mirror to see the problem. Jugs down that low in the real event were either strafing trains, hitting airfields (and getting the hell out), or finishing off planes they drove down from way upstairs. P-47s were not used for low turnfighting.

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:56 PM
I just received are squad skin for he P-39. I havent flown it much. It dose handle nice, but i find it a little slow fro my tast.

Can you give any tips on what i should and shoun't do with it.


tk in advance.


Silent out...

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 07:56 PM
DuxCorvan wrote:
- nicolas10 wrote:
-- "The P39 is the oddest claim of the lot. (...) They can do most things pretty well! It certainly does not match the awful reputation that the plane had in the west."
-
- The main reason for that reputation was that pilots
- didn't like that big engine right after the seat.
- They didn't want to be crushed by it in a crash
- landing.
-
- Apart from this, P-39 was a competent fighter (a
- little underpowered in the last versions), nothing
- from out of this world, but it still could make the
- job in the proper hands, using the proper tactics.

Well it seems it was pretty much hated by western the pilots, the aft engine led to weird center of gravity, and it had bad stall/spin characteristics... And you could also just forget about going at high altitude... gun that jams and is harder to aim (cervy trajectory, slow rate of fire...)...

Eastern pilots liked it for some reasons, like armour, very good radio (well there was a radio at all)... Not exactly it's flight characterisitics. Although the took care of this by removing as much weight as they could.

Nic

http://nicolas10.freeservers.com/images/et.jpg


OK I -->[]

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 08:16 PM
That anyone would dare to complain that the P-39 in undermodeled is funny. It is the best overall fighter in FB.

The Cobra was a heavy a/c with a mediocre power plant. In FB it can climb with a Bf109F. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif In r/l I seriously doubt it could climb anywhere near that well. Providing data to back that up is useless as Soviet models were lightened, invalidating U.S. climb figures.

The P-40 is an awesome low altitude fighter in FB. How can you complain about it? The 6 .50's make it a serious threat to any German fighter.

The P-47 should roll faster according to all data I've seen. So, you have a point there. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:09 PM
I hear all the p39 whining its noway the best plane in the game, it is up there and competes well with the late yaks 109s and 190s tho.


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Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-17-2003, 10:24 PM
Leadspitter,

In Fb, the P-39 is a much better bomber interceptor than the late Yaks due to its firepower. The Cobra is also a better low altitude dogfighter than the Late 190's. That is why I give it such high marks. It is very versatile and good at just about everything.

From historical accounts, both Soviet and American, the P-39 was a good diver, good turner (at medium to high speeds), but, was weak in sustained climb. That is the only area it is overmodeled in currently. The stall and spin characteristics of the FB Cobra are very docile compared to the IL-2 Cobra. Historical accounts also reveal differing opinions on this so, it would be difficult to prove the FB stall/spin model incorrect.

My main point is: 1C IS NOT TRYING TO SANDBAG ALL U.S. A/C.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:29 AM
Why don't we just put 8 .50cal brownings on an La-7 and name it a P-47?

Isn't that what we all want?

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:56 AM
Weather_Man wrote:
- Why don't we just put 8 .50cal brownings on an La-7
- and name it a P-47?


Thats not a bad idea.

I don't like the fact that the LA-7 breakes apart now when you exeed 650kmph. But from what i was told this is acuiret. I like acruet evan though i cant spell it lol.

I do opoligize for ranting, i know now it's Beta patch and the next one will be final, mayby.

All i realy want is for all planes to be FM correctly. I also would like the Madox team to not only use the russion documants but mayby use the info from differant contreis. This way you wouln't have a one sided FM.

I could be wronge, mayby the are using info from differnt contries.

Besides the fact they still messed up on the P-47, overall i think they did a good job on the patch. The sound is 100% better and the game seems more stable.

But sometimes the mouse freazes after the game loads and i have to press Ctrl,Alt and Delet, this still hasent been fixed but they know that and it will get fixed.

Silent out...

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 04:11 AM
Silent, Like i said tactics make a BIG diff. that's why i had you Lucky run the Fox & Hound training. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
2 P-4o's Vs 1 Bf 109g6 a/s.
the G6 is much faster and as much as i hate to admit an all around beter aircraft. So the thing is it takes tactics and team work. i'm sure there are plenty here, even the Luft~Whiners that will agree with me whan i say that 2 p-40 flying wing tactics with good pilots will almost always win out over even the most uber lone german fighter.
So from a stand point that we are at a horrible disdvantage in air craft...we have to use teamwork to overcome our defincany in aircraft. As for the p-39 in FB...it's fine. i think that it's the most accuratly modelded US ac in the game. You just need to park that La-7 in the hanger and log some flight time in the p-39 is all. How many times have you seen 310thPaladin & 310th****** rule a server in a
p-39? Paladin Rocks in a P-39, it's his best plane and almost all he flies. I've whatched him come in to a DF and Clean house in a p-39. Face it the kids an ACE in the p-39 /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
I think the P-39 is fine just as it is. The P-40..despite what some might say was a very good fighter. and it is in FB. It's not perfect in FB but it's faily close. The Spin is a little too much IMO and it could stand to be a bit faster on the deck..but over all it's not half as bad as the P-47. I'd fly a p-40 aganst 109 E's & F's anyday in FB.I've been loging flight time in the P-40 all week.
And i get kills. Solo with no wing man. I even baged a 262 in a p-40. Not very easy at all. but i did it. Like with all things it takes time and practice. So from a stand point of aircraft we're not totaly screwd but we aint far off.
As a us Squad we can do is hope that the p-47 gets fixed, and that the p-38/51's will be better.

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XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:35 AM
I spent most of my time tonight flying the P-39Q-10. I was impressed. All around good plane. I went into a dive and pulled out of it at a speed of 770kmph.

I still dont like the P-40 lol. But it is a 1942 while the P-39 is a 1944. I wonder what the P-40 would be like if they still built them in 1944.

Here's a question, which P-39 is the best.



Silent out....

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 06:48 AM
My favorite is p-39. At the begenning may be hard to fly, but when you get use to it... I read somewhere, that russian pilots were flying p-39 at low altitude - where it performs best. West pilots were flying it at mid or high altitude - where it couldn't perform so well.

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 11:09 AM
VF_310thSilent wrote:
- I still dont like the P-40 lol. But it is a 1942
- while the P-39 is a 1944. I wonder what the P-40
- would be like if they still built them in 1944.

It would look like this:

http://www.pmc-thueringen.de/Modelle/Luft72/p40003.jpg



http://www.pmc-thueringen.de/Modelle/Luft72/p40001.jpg



http://www.pioneeraero.co.nz/xp-40q_version.htm

Nic

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OK I --> []

Message Edited on 08/18/0312:11PM by nicolas10

Zayets
08-18-2003, 11:39 AM
All I can say is that P39 rocks as fighter , even against soviet ones. P47 is not a pure fighter but it has a helluva dive and climb like a banshee now. P40 is somewhere between as maneuverability although I don't like its speed.Just my 0.02 euros


Zayets out

XyZspineZyX
08-18-2003, 12:07 PM
I cant beleive we waste webspace on this kind of trash. The P40 is fine. It is as it was, a mediocre fighter with some good atributes. You are not chasing noone down with it but you can sure win fight after fight. STOP Yanking on the stick and practice in QMB and you may learn to fly something beside the La-7 and the Yak3. Keep comparing the early planes to the late planes and we all will understand that you just dont "get" this Sim.
I have scored multiple kills in the P40 and like it. It has improved A LOT with the patch. It takes a very gentle touch(more so than the '39). It is a cool plane too. Very early war Americana. Just dont go in a room with ALL Planes and expect to kill seasoned vets in G10s or Yak 3s. A buddy and I fly alone sometimes. We take turns at the F4 vs P40. It seems as we allways come out about even. In QMB try flying against other planes. I got I-16s and La5s with it.... Pre Patch and 3 out of four F4 aces post patch.
So quit whining about the US figters. THe US had a rough time with its fighters true. The prewar concepts were all wrong. The soviets learned from experience the La7 and Yak 3 came out about the time when the Mustang came to be successfull. Compare Apples with apples. I spend a LOT of time in the P47 cockpit. I love it too and the .50s are awesome. But my plane is the P39. In it I can handle any plane in the sim. My standard is the N1 but I will get in the Q10 from time to time.

Kaptain Maico
249th I.A.P.
Group II
Trng Officer

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eskimo-FHmod
08-18-2003, 02:17 PM
AeroBob wrote:
- But, but... They're American aircraft! Designed
- and made by Americans! How could they
- possibly be inferior to German and Russian
- aircraft?
-
-

HAHAHAHA touche /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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