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View Full Version : Pacific Fighters is gonna bring out some whines



nearmiss
05-23-2004, 11:01 AM
Wait until someone starts taking on the Japanese Bettys.(bombers) Those things are gonna flame up like my outdoor grill, with too much lighter fluid.

I can hear it now...Oleg those things can't burn like that, can they?

Course they can, because they were called Lighters, Cigarette lighters, etc., by Americans.

All you got to do is hit it one in the wing root, and she'll start burning.

It's gonna be different. I can't imagine how Oleg is going to manage the AI for offline play. The Japanese pilots were T&B period. The Allies couldn't begin to fight that fight. So...will the AI tactics be different for each side, or are we all gonna wind up on the deck T&B with the Japanese planes. It's tough enough now, because we always seem to wind up on the deck even with Energy and B & Z tactics implemented in the AI.

It'll be interesting how this is managed, because it will sure make a difference if the AI are correctly modeled and programmed.

MSFT CFS2 is a good example all air combat reverts to T & B and 800+ yards/meters successful deflection shots.

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nearmiss
05-23-2004, 11:01 AM
Wait until someone starts taking on the Japanese Bettys.(bombers) Those things are gonna flame up like my outdoor grill, with too much lighter fluid.

I can hear it now...Oleg those things can't burn like that, can they?

Course they can, because they were called Lighters, Cigarette lighters, etc., by Americans.

All you got to do is hit it one in the wing root, and she'll start burning.

It's gonna be different. I can't imagine how Oleg is going to manage the AI for offline play. The Japanese pilots were T&B period. The Allies couldn't begin to fight that fight. So...will the AI tactics be different for each side, or are we all gonna wind up on the deck T&B with the Japanese planes. It's tough enough now, because we always seem to wind up on the deck even with Energy and B & Z tactics implemented in the AI.

It'll be interesting how this is managed, because it will sure make a difference if the AI are correctly modeled and programmed.

MSFT CFS2 is a good example all air combat reverts to T & B and 800+ yards/meters successful deflection shots.

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Tater-SW-
05-23-2004, 11:07 AM
They were called "Zippos" after a very popular brand of American cigarette lighter.

tater

Sharpe26
05-23-2004, 11:10 AM
now that I think of it, there's a movie on willeys site about Bettys under attack. You can see them catch fire, but strangely enough, not much.

Udidtoo
05-23-2004, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nearmiss:





It'll be interesting how this is managed, because it will sure make a difference if the AI are correctly modeled and programmed.



------------ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://avsims.com/portal/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


AI correctly modeled and programmed?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ya, that'll happen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

..............................
I always have just enough fuel to arrive at the scene of my crash.

NegativeGee
05-23-2004, 11:49 AM
Well, if PF does bring out some whines, it will be keeping in character with the rest of the IL-2 series http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oh, and I could not resist http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Q: I have read a lot that the Betty was this thing..... that got blown up, but you actually have high praise for the bomber.

A: The thing doesn't seem to blow up that easy.

Joe Foss, USMC 11 kills, private interview, 2000.

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

Giganoni
05-23-2004, 12:06 PM
I imagine there will be more whiners about Japanese planes being "too strong".

"Thats not fair, I can't take out (Japanese plane x) with a one second burst."

As for the betty I'm sure most of us have heard the propoganda and true stories about it. Obviously its probably exaggerated a little, but people who get into it will probably understand its no B-29 in terms of strength.

matkal80
05-23-2004, 12:08 PM
They dont have to wait for PF realese. Take for example new B25, this thing light up right upon being hit.

Latico
05-23-2004, 12:14 PM
Well of course there's going to be whinners. Don't you know that everyone is a WWII aviation expert? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

I'm simply amazed at what the Dev's HAVE programmed into the AI's. I've been setting up small dogfights (1 vs 2) against 109's and 190's. I've noticed that they generally B&Z me when I'm in the LA-5. But they also pull a little trick where they split up and one plane seems to fly away from me while the other manuvuers to get on my six. It doesn't matter which one I persue at this point, the other plane always tries to get on my six. (unless one of them is damaged bad)

LEXX_Luthor
05-23-2004, 01:09 PM
Yes, Zeroes show initial BnZ behavior when set against I~153 or something like that.

nearmiss:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Japanese pilots were T&B period.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Ki~61 and Ki~44 pilots too? This is a common mistake among simmers who spend too much time in FMB (I would know). http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>By concentrating on the second and third Chinese flights (with one shotai each), only left one Ki-27 taking on the most experienced of the Chinese pilots (Ma and Teng). Although the Japanese, First Lieutenant Yoshio Sotomura (47th Class), also was a senior pilot, he made the critical error fighting to the strengths of the Chinese (probably as a result under- estimating the Chinese pilots and their inferior planes). Instead of fighting in the vertical plane where the Ki-27 had the advantage, Sotomura got into a turning fight with Teng. While Teng kept Sotomura occupied, Ma climbed above the two and bounced the Japanese from behind, hitting the Ki-27 in the fuel tanks. Smoke poured from the Ki-27 as Sotomura tried to escape. Evidently damaged, the Ki-27 could not pull away from the normally slower I-15bis. Ma was able to close to 50m and appeared to hit the Japanese pilot with gunfire as, all of a sudden, the Ki-27 stopped evasive action and flew straight with level wings. At this critical juncture, all four of Ma's ShKAS machine guns jammed. Nevertheless, the Ki-27 was done for and it crashed shortly afterwards. The Japanese pilot died of his injuries. Although, he did not hit the Japanese, Teng contributed to the kill through fine teamwork with his element leader. The Japanese fighters returned claiming 11 shot down against a reported 20 plus I-15bis for the loss of two fighters (Harada and Sotomura).

under "1939" http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/sino-japanese.htm
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, Ki~27 was BnZ plane, except against I~16 then I~16 was used as BnZ plane.

This is why "National" AI is Sloppy idea. I wonder if teh USA simmers (or 50 cal simmers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) are really thinking of "Racial" AI when they make this mistake. Indeed, due to newspaper reporting, USAans had identical false ideas of Japanese planes and pilots in the year 1941. FM and DM aside, simmer ideas of "Racial" AI show how FB simulates history exactly (and real life pilot Whining about cockpit view too lol).

BlitzPig_DDT
05-23-2004, 02:45 PM
More "whines" after PF? Well, obviously. You will indeed see to it. Because you lot (that is, the overwhelming majority that post on these boards) call everything a "whine" unless it's praise or worship, you will, in the words of Picard, "make it so".

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

crossfade
05-24-2004, 06:06 AM
dont worry about ai be a man and go online

Tater-SW-
05-24-2004, 07:38 AM
I don't think it's americentric, or a racial bias in terms of percieved (and real) tactics used by the IJA/IJAF. Before the war started, the japanese pilots put a premium on fighter qualities that were inherit in low wing loading aircraft. (there's a lot about it in the japanese book about the creation of the zero). It worked out for them since early on in particular, they couldn't make really powerful engines.

It's certainly true that US pilots (and military in general) grossly underestimated the quality of japanese troops. It's also important to note that the US and commonwealth forces had a similar style of combat trained into them--"dogfighting" instead of BnZ. This was the source of their undoing far more than aircraft quality vs the Zero, Oscar, et al. As they learned to play to US aircraft strengths, things got better for them. Planes that had better engines, which were heavier and lead to higher wing loading (everything else gets heavier, they have extra power so add this and that...).

This is the problem with flying japanese planes in any sim, they are damn hard to survive in. I flew F4Fs almost exclusively in WB... except when I was in an oscar or zeke, lol. I'd take any f4f (or fm-2, drool) over any japanese plane of the early war if the goal was not getting killed. I think the f2b (even the american version) won't be remotely as bad as history makes it out to be since we all know how NOT to fight IJ planes. Of course the IJ planes get a bump vs reality for having good, universal radio commo.

tater

[This message was edited by Tater-SW- on Mon May 24 2004 at 08:33 AM.]

heywooood
05-24-2004, 09:06 AM
The funniest thing about this thread is where you say there will be whining about PF, for one reason or another.. as if there isn't already..? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

I suppose one must wash down all the cheese with something

geetarman
05-24-2004, 01:20 PM
I can't wait to see the reaction when guys jump in an F4F and df Zero's in the earlier combat periods.

The F4F is one of my top three planes ever, but, it is probably going to be toast if flown like most people fly in FB.

Consider it like a less manueverable Hurricane I!

BlitzPig_DDT
05-24-2004, 03:39 PM
The F4F was an extremely good turning aircraft. I'm not too familiar with the Hurri, but that statement seems like selling the Wildcat short.

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif

Tater-SW-
05-24-2004, 04:17 PM
Keep yer E up in any US plane, and you've got nothing to fear. Force yourself to observe some minimum alt restrictions to give you room to dive away, and you're good to go.

tater

BfHeFwMe
05-24-2004, 05:32 PM
It won't matter, when a sixteen ship battle group opens up on you from 40 miles out and the slide show starts, it's all over but the crying. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

ucanfly
05-24-2004, 06:45 PM
From what I've read the F4F was slower in level flight, could not climb as well, but had better durability and dive speed than zero. Teamwork tactics seems to have been the main thing that the Navy pilots had over the Japanese early on, and the later planes could dictate the fight provided they were used correctly.

Tater-SW-
05-24-2004, 07:54 PM
Yeah, teamwork matters (virtually all US planes having radios really helps with this, dunno how you deal with this in a world of RW and TS for the IJN/AF that didn't have universal radios).

As far as I know, overall the F4F, and certainly if you include the FM-2 (there were more FM-2s than F4Fs), did very well in terms of having a positive kill/loss ratio.

As for the battle group lighting the sky up, AAA is gonna be a huge issue.

USN CVs had a huge number of AAA mounts (over 100). By 1943, DDs escorting them had almost the AAA protection of IJN CVs (~20-30). If the game has only a few mounts to represent the AAA, there needs to be a relative balance of AAA for each navy. The US 5/38s with radar fusing were particularly nasty. As the war goes on, the war will either be more and more 1 sided, or plain fantasy (sorry, but that's just the way it is).

tater

ImpStarDuece
05-25-2004, 06:29 AM
oh for the love of Glod,

Its a flight sim people.

We rate about 3rd on the persnickitty scale after Star Trek and Tolkein fans. There are ALWAYS going to be whines. These should be type classified though. Here is my attempt, feel free to add or to challenge me on any of them.

Class 1 Whines: These are from onwhine/newbie players who expect to be able to jump into a so called 'uber' plane and roam around blasting anything else out of the sky. They expect a First Person Shooter style learning curve, know little if nothing about the planes/history of the era and generally like to play 'AirQuake' style games. These are also the most shameless whiners who hate getting shot down, can stand anyother plane out turning, diving, rolling, climbing or shooting their personal favourite ride.

Class 2 Whines: Genrally nationalistic in character these whines are based around preconcieved notions of history, and usually have some basis in fact, as taught by their particular brand of publicly approved history. This fact can be real or imagined however. Hence we have the Zeros/Hellcats/Coraiars/Hayate/Tigermoth owned everything in the sky whines. The "we won the war in this year yet i still get downed, what gives?" whine is also included. Class 2 whiners are also the most likely to spout vitriolic comments about opposing posters and their race,nation or regional/religious/cultural identity. See the "best tank of WW2" in the General Discussion forum thread for some ideal examples. Additionally they are the first to usually discover the particular 'national bias' that surely exists inside every WW2 sim http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Class 3 Whines. A more sophisticated type of whine. These whiners use thier own knowledge or research to try an improve the game by raising salient points about the FM/DM/WM in the game. Class 3a whiners never have anyhting but a bit of book reading and some scanty proof, while class 3b whiners usually go to lengths to back up their claims. A natural denizen of ORR these whiners usually have fairly good standing in the onwhine community.

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

geetarman
05-25-2004, 09:24 AM
The Wildcat's performance in the early war in racking up kills is extremely impressive. Why? Two predominant reasons; One, well trained Navy and Marine pilots who quickly learned the proper way to fight, exceptional teamwork vs. esssentially no teamwork on the part of the Japanese.

That's it. The F4F could out dive a Zero and was more durable. Other than that, the Zero outperformed it, plain and simple. Read the accounts of the US fliers.

My earlier point was, the Wildcat will have a tough time in PF (if modelled accurately)against the Zero because a large number of pilots on the DF servers go out solo and start furballing with the first EA they see. If it's a Zero, you'll have more than you hands full!

P.S. I'll be in my F4F!

|CoB|_Spectre
05-25-2004, 09:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BlitzPig_DDT:
More "whines" after PF? Well, obviously. You will indeed see to it. Because you lot (that is, the overwhelming majority that post on these boards) call everything a "whine" unless it's praise or worship, you will, in the words of Picard, "make it so".

http://operationcarepackage.org/ddtsig.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, sir. I was a bit amazed to see a post whining about whining that hasn't taken place yet. But then, I could just be whining. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

9th_Bloodfist
05-25-2004, 09:32 AM
Hell, I suppose there will be a lot of crying once I go up against them.

http://www.lordsofwar.com/public_uploads/Bloodfist/bloodfinishsig.jpg