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View Full Version : How would the Templar Insignia look like before the Crusades?



dimbismp
10-28-2015, 05:05 PM
I feel that before the Crusades and the creation of the Order of the Templar Knights(the one that actually existed),the Templars might have used a different insignia,and not the Templar Cross.

I guess we will find out if a game that takes place before the crusades is ever released.However,i feel that,even in that scenario,Ubi will stick with the Cross,as it is a Templar trademark.

LoyalACFan
10-28-2015, 05:09 PM
Isn't the Templar Cross supposed to be the Mark of Cain, not the Christian cross?

VestigialLlama4
10-28-2015, 05:17 PM
The Cross is a symbol that precedes Christianity itself. It's there in Egyptian hieroglyphs and other places, in Hebrew it was called "the Tau". Early Christians used a symbol of a fish for worship, it was Constantine that introduced the Cross.

dimbismp
10-28-2015, 05:22 PM
The Cross is a symbol that precedes Christianity itself. It's there in Egyptian hieroglyphs and other places, in Hebrew it was called "the Tau". Early Christians used a symbol of a fish for worship, it was Constantine that introduced the Cross.
I wasn't aware that the cross was used by other religions,though i knew about the fish.

What i am saying is that real life Templars used the cross because they were christians,so...

Senningiri_GR
10-28-2015, 05:35 PM
The Cross is a symbol that precedes Christianity itself. It's there in Egyptian hieroglyphs and other places, in Hebrew it was called "the Tau". Early Christians used a symbol of a fish for worship, it was Constantine that introduced the Cross.

Constantine did not do such thing... He just allowed everyone believe as he wishes.



I wasn't aware that the cross was used by other religions,though i knew about the fish.

What i am saying is that real life Templars used the cross because they were christians,so...

The fish was just a symbol that they used it to identity other Christians. If they suspected that someone was they would show him a picture of a fish. If the other preson wrote IΧΘΥΣ it would mean that he was one too. IXΘΥΣ was an acronym for Ιησους Χριστος Θεου Υιος Σωτηρ that meant "Jesus Christ God's Son Saviour". It was not used for worship.

dimbismp
10-28-2015, 05:58 PM
Constantine did not do such thing... He just allowed everyone believe as he wishes.




The fish was just a symbol that they used it to identity other Christians. If they suspected that someone was they would show him a picture of a fish. If the other preson wrote IΧΘΥΣ it would mean that he was one too. IXΘΥΣ was an acronym for Ιησους Χριστος Θεου Υιος Σωτηρ that meant "Jesus Christ God's Son Saviour". It was not used for worship.
I know,i am greek too ;)

VestigialLlama4
10-28-2015, 06:02 PM
Constantine did not do such thing... He just allowed everyone believe as he wishes.

That is a charitable interpretation. Constantine asked pagans to pay money to build Christian churches and ended state patronage for pagan temples, it was a coercive policy meant to end pagan religion in favor of state Christianity. Pagan temples ended up being destroyed and abandoned as a result of this, in some cases being destroyed by force.

Constantine was responsible for Christianity becoming the dominant religion of Europe. And the Cross, while formerly one of many Christian symbols (and there were many Christian sects at the time) became the dominant symbol.

The only Emperor who actually tried to encourage religious tolerance after Constantine was Julian the Apostate.


I wasn't aware that the cross was used by other religions,though i knew about the fish.

Take a look at the Egyptian Ankh. And check out the first section of this page (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_cross).

The main idea of Assassin's Creed that the organizations existed before the Crusades in other cultures and symbols has a level of truth if you consider the fact that symbols are not static or fixed in meaning. And everything is borrowed and stolen from cultures and places. Even from far away.

Like the Assassin A is nothing else but the Lambda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#/media/File:Coloured_Lambda.png). The lambda was the symbols which adorned the shields of Spartans and it later became a symbol of freedom, adopted by the LGBT community and also the logo and metaphor of Gordon Freeman and his crowbar.

SenseHomunculus
10-28-2015, 06:07 PM
I wasn't aware that the cross was used by other religions,though i knew about the fish.

Except in the context of other religions it's wasn't a "cross" as such (as in, symbolic of the instrument of Christ's crucifixion), they're just perpendicular lines.

Rafe Harwood
10-28-2015, 06:14 PM
I think the distinction needs to be made between the Knights Templar (real) and the Templers (story plot). They are not exactly the same thing although one may be very broadly modelled on the other.

Please, let's not create history from fiction... again :/

VestigialLlama4
10-28-2015, 06:15 PM
Within the games, the Cross and the Lambda represent, as per developers, Rectangles and Triangles. The Templars represent order and control so you have four sided closing everything, whereas the Assassins represent flight, movement and height,.

They mentioned this in Rogue when they were making Shay's templar outfit and why they tried to put a lot of square motifs even in the slats and flats, while Shay's Assassin outfit had curves and sloping parts and the Assassin silhouette is essentially a triangle forming an A. For Shay's silhouette they tried to give him shoulder pads and the like.

Senningiri_GR
10-29-2015, 03:27 PM
Like the Assassin A is nothing else but the Lambda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sparta#/media/File:Coloured_Lambda.png). The lambda was the symbols which adorned the shields of Spartans and it later became a symbol of freedom, adopted by the LGBT community and also the logo and metaphor of Gordon Freeman and his crowbar.

Let me disagree with this statement... Yes it is very true that the Greek Lamda looks a lot like the Assassin insignia (it is actually is the insignia cut in half). But the Lamda is an initiate for Lacedaemons, an other word to describe Sparta. Now the Peloponnesian War occurred for two basic reasons. Firstly because or the hostility and the opposing political interests and secondly, because these had a very different mindset of the word and community. For example Athens was a city of democracy and freedom as its (local only) people could participate in the politics and do as they wish, while Sparta had a very strict military country where everyone was under many rules, in a specific position and was not supporting people with free mind. It looks a lot like Athens-Assassins and Sparta-Temlars.

VestigialLlama4
10-29-2015, 05:41 PM
Let me disagree with this statement... Yes it is very true that the Greek Lamda looks a lot like the Assassin insignia (it is actually is the insignia cut in half). But the Lamda is an initiate for Lacedaemons, an other word to describe Sparta. Now the Peloponnesian War occurred for two basic reasons. Firstly because or the hostility and the opposing political interests and secondly, because these had a very different mindset of the word and community. For example Athens was a city of democracy and freedom as its (local only) people could participate in the politics and do as they wish, while Sparta had a very strict military country where everyone was under many rules, in a specific position and was not supporting people with free mind. It looks a lot like Athens-Assassins and Sparta-Temlars.

Athens was also the city where the vote was restricted to 8% of the population where women had zero rights and their policy to neighbours was highly imperialistic. The Spartans had a dyarchy, organized slavery, but whose slaves were in some senses treated better than Athens' lower castes, as well as more rights for women than the Athenians.

It's not for nothing that many philosophers admired Sparta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia

The positive aspects of Spartan culture influenced many philosophers and revolutionaries. Most notably the French Revolution saw themselves as Spartans and Romans. Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Plato admired Sparta, as did Machiavelli and Samuel Adams (both of whom we see in ''Assassin's Creed'' games). Zionists modelled the socialist kibbutz on Spartan culture as well. In any way, the Lambda is more about what the symbol means and represents rather than actual Spartan history.

Modern ideas of democracy of course are significantly different from Athens, Sparta and Rome. After all it was Cyrus the Great who introduced a legal code for human rights, for which Thomas Jefferson admired him, and the Persians were truly abolitionist which a certain horrible movie forgets to mention. True democracy began with the French Revolution.

Senningiri_GR
10-29-2015, 09:40 PM
Athens was also the city where the vote was restricted to 8% of the population where women had zero rights and their policy to neighbours was highly imperialistic. The Spartans had a dyarchy, organized slavery, but whose slaves were in some senses treated better than Athens' lower castes, as well as more rights for women than the Athenians.

It's not for nothing that many philosophers admired Sparta.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconophilia

The positive aspects of Spartan culture influenced many philosophers and revolutionaries. Most notably the French Revolution saw themselves as Spartans and Romans. Jean-Jacques Rousseau and Plato admired Sparta, as did Machiavelli and Samuel Adams (both of whom we see in ''Assassin's Creed'' games). Zionists modelled the socialist kibbutz on Spartan culture as well. In any way, the Lambda is more about what the symbol means and represents rather than actual Spartan history.

Modern ideas of democracy of course are significantly different from Athens, Sparta and Rome. After all it was Cyrus the Great who introduced a legal code for human rights, for which Thomas Jefferson admired him, and the Persians were truly abolitionist which a certain horrible movie forgets to mention. True democracy began with the French Revolution.

You are right. In the beginning Athens was not like this, but well you see what happens if the wrong people go to authority. But women were not so oppressed. There are many women scientists recorded and they had liberties. The only reason they didn't vote was that they were not fighting citizens and the Greek world of "active citizen" (πολίτης) was a changing letter position of the word (οπλίτης)....

VestigialLlama4
10-29-2015, 10:04 PM
You are right. In the beginning Athens was not like this, but well you see what happens if the wrong people go to authority.

Wasn't Pericles the man who denied foreigners the right to vote and he's the great statesman. Although his girlfriend Aspasia was a foreigner and woman. I think it's more a general thing rather than wrong people.


But women were not so oppressed. There are many women scientists recorded and they had liberties. The only reason they didn't vote was that they were not fighting citizens and the Greek world of "active citizen" (πολίτης) was a changing letter position of the word (οπλίτης)....

It's all relative I guess. I don't think Spartans or Athenians were ultimately better than each other...well Spartans did finally defeat Athens at the end of Peloponnesian War and Athens did create the better literature, but then Alexander came anyway.

Anyway my point of the Assassin Lambda symbol was that it was about defiance, about freedom because that's the later interpretation of the Lambda and the Assassin A reflects that. Whereas the Templar Cross represents dominance, order and assimiliation, similar to how the cross assimiliated Christianity itself.