PDA

View Full Version : Breaking Up With Assassin's Creed



STDlyMcStudpants
10-25-2015, 11:39 PM
I did not receive a review copy, so Syndicate has not been prioritized for me... I probably won't get to it until the end of November, that being said
I can't agree or disagree with the points being made of what AC is NOW
But I think this video hits the nail on the head by saying that Assassin's Creed has lost it's soul...
It's become too much of a game, rather than the time traveling experience that it once was.
We don't want a themed sandbox... we want to forget we are playing a game period.
Though I actually do think that ACR AC3 and even ACL had soul..
That AC4, ACRo and ACU were the only lacking....
Your thoughts?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZRUdlWZz_o

crusader_prophet
10-26-2015, 12:55 AM
Thoughts? As the name of the show goes he is ON POINT!

Unfortunately UbiSoft will always ONLY care for money, pump out these games like they are on an assembly line and pretend to care about gamers. It's repulsive that all their games have become formulaic and reuse of the same assets they built for other games. A giant built of thousands of passionate developers fails to bring innovation while a small studio in Poland wows critics, gamers and makes money consistently because they CARE about games! Money will follow. After all Ubi is made of bunch of arrogant leaders anyways.

whatr_those
10-26-2015, 12:58 AM
Thoughts? As the name of the show goes he is ON POINT!

Unfortunately UbiSoft will always ONLY care for money, pump out these games like they are on an assembly line and pretend to care about gamers. It's repulsive that all their games have become formulaic and reuse of the same assets they build for other games. A giant built of thousands of passionate developers fails to bring innovation while a small studio in Poland wows critics, gamers and makes money consistently because they CARE about games! Money will follow. After all Ubi is made of bunch of arrogant arsehats anyways.
My thoughts exactly.

MT4K
10-26-2015, 01:29 AM
It's a great video. I agree with most of what he said. Except i didn't think ac3 was as bad as everybody made it out to be. Though it was kind of the beginning of the end for my personal love towards the games and it breaks my heart to say that. Having the feeling of losing something you love is horrible but it happens. I lost huge interest with AC4. It was a glorified pirate game with AC elements added. Doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just a bad AC game. Though that's my own opinion and i won't begrudge anybody who says it's their favourite in the series.

I haven't truly been that invested into AC since AC3. Not because of the modern day issues or anything like that. Honestly i could never truly figure out exactly why, but after watching this video. I think it hits the nail on the head for the most part. I'll continue to follow the games regardless as a fan of the series hoping to once more find that spark or soul or whatever people wish to call it. Currently though even with syndicate considering everything i've seen or read about it. I still only look at it with a simple "meh".

Maybe one day i'll fall in love once more. After all, Love is the most beautiful feeling, but also one of the most painful.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-26-2015, 08:08 AM
It's a great video. I agree with most of what he said. Except i didn't think ac3 was as bad as everybody made it out to be. Though it was kind of the beginning of the end for my personal love towards the games and it breaks my heart to say that. Having the feeling of losing something you love is horrible but it happens. I lost huge interest with AC4. It was a glorified pirate game with AC elements added. Doesn't mean it's a bad game. Just a bad AC game. Though that's my own opinion and i won't begrudge anybody who says it's their favourite in the series.

I haven't truly been that invested into AC since AC3. Not because of the modern day issues or anything like that. Honestly i could never truly figure out exactly why, but after watching this video. I think it hits the nail on the head for the most part. I'll continue to follow the games regardless as a fan of the series hoping to once more find that spark or soul or whatever people wish to call it. Currently though even with syndicate considering everything i've seen or read about it. I still only look at it with a simple "meh".

Maybe one day i'll fall in love once more. After all, Love is the most beautiful feeling, but also one of the most painful.
Ive had an identical experience.
Assassins Creed 3 was the last to make my heart flutter too...
I may point to the modern day and say this is it...but it can't be..
Revelations was my first ac.. It made my heart flutter without having a clue what this annoying puzzle thing getting in my way was...
Perhaps it's because we are getting too close to the modern day?
Ironically ac iv came before 3.. But felt more like a modern 3rd person shooter..
I'm not sure where the magic of the world went...
Ac3 was beautifully immersive...
Npcs and everything around has become as the video states 'window trimming'
The world feels built around you, rather than you placed inside like it has for the first 5 games...
I'm not a game designer so I can't say how to get it back.
But maybe the team at ubisoft need to go back and play those 5 games ..

Captain Tomatoz
10-26-2015, 09:23 AM
Although it pains me to say, I agree with almost all his points. Especially the part where he talks about how the cities felt. All this talk about London being its own character but it just feels like it's only purpose is to serve the player rather than the other way round.

I do really like the game but I don't feel the spark that I had when I played the original 2 and he's made me realise why.

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 10:21 AM
This video game reviewer can't say he's breaking up with AC since he clearly doesn't know the games at all. Calling AC1 linear? Wow! Revelations is just a big sandbox with stuff to do...it actually has fewer activities than even Brotherhood.

I just wish people were actually objective and rise above fanboy frothing-in-the-mouth nerdrage but it seems that this will never happen. Well too bad for them.

SofaJockey
10-26-2015, 10:31 AM
I'm loving Syndicate.

But the video was accurate, there are some who like what AC does (myself included) and others who have tired of it.

That's why there are 9/10 reviews and 4/10 reviews, and they are both right.

MT4K
10-26-2015, 10:35 AM
This video game reviewer can't say he's breaking up with AC since he clearly doesn't know the games at all. Calling AC1 linear? Wow! Revelations is just a big sandbox with stuff to do...it actually has fewer activities than even Brotherhood.

I just wish people were actually objective and rise above fanboy frothing-in-the-mouth nerdrage but it seems that this will never happen. Well too bad for them.

Yeah it was a weird choice of words. AC1 wasn't so much linear. Just repetitive more than anything. Every city you did the same like 3-4 side missions and once they was done all you could do was walk around.. While future games did add more things to do so the repetitiveness felt less of a problem without bogging itself down terribly either.

Sure they still had the issue of once you finished everything there was nothing else to really do besides walk around, but reaching that stage took longer and didn't become too tedious(except feathers).

Stil regardless of ac1's issues or lack of content. It still felt better to walk and travel the cities and i still consider ac1 personally to have one of the best atmospheres of the series.

Sushiglutton
10-26-2015, 11:12 AM
It's a great video that makes me sad. I agree with Danny's conclusion that AC is designed for a different audience, so the only sensible thing to do would be to break up. But close to 5k posts says I'm nowhere near sensible :).

One issue is the one of pacing. I'm looking for a slower paced game committed to immersion. I want AC to take itself seriously. I know a lot of people hate that. In fact in modern culture it's considered a positive thing whenever a movie/game shows that it does not take itself seriously. In this enviroment I would love if AC stood out as the one AAA franchise that did. If you wanna goof around there's no shortage of OW games to choose from.

But AC is not designed for immersion. It's basically a AAA-version of an iPhone game. It delivers a massive amount of bit-sized content sprinkled with a constant stream of rewards. The game insists upon itself all the time. It's terrified of the player ever feeling bored. There's even a trend of making actions shorter so that the player can participate in the upgrade loop more and more effeciently.

Instead of fixing the core mechanics and making the moment to moment gameplay robust, Ubi has chosen to double down on rewards. Rather than cooking a good meal from quality ingredients they just fill their fastfood with more sugar. It's so sad :(.

The4orTy67
10-26-2015, 12:37 PM
Wow you get free games, talk **** about them and get paid to do so. Where do I sign up?

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 12:39 PM
Yeah it was a weird choice of words. AC1 wasn't so much linear. Just repetitive more than anything. Every city you did the same like 3-4 side missions and once they was done all you could do was walk around..

Well the fact is each city was different from each other and each section was unique so it didn't feel repititive if you actually replayed the game. I think people feel it's repititve because the don't like the Levantine setting all that much.


Wow you get free games, talk **** about them and get paid to do so. Where do I sign up?

So much for Ubisoft paying and buying reviewers, huh?

SenseHomunculus
10-26-2015, 12:51 PM
This video game reviewer can't say he's breaking up with AC since he clearly doesn't know the games at all. Calling AC1 linear? Wow!

I get what he's saying, I think. To an extent, all the games before AC3 were linear. Not on a micro level but on a macro level. i.e. you would go anywhere within the available map area of a city. And those were pretty open. But if you were at Monteriggioni for example and wanted to go to another city, you were funneled into traversing a narrow canyon and then fast-traveled to the other city. Those individual map areas were quite small relative to everything before AC3. And in AC2 you had to progress the story to open up areas of the maps so it wasn't truly open-world. So while you weren't really "on a rail" as such, you were nudged along geographically by the narrative quite a bit.

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 01:05 PM
I get what he's saying, I think. To an extent, all the games before AC3 were linear. Not on a micro level but on a macro level. i.e. you would go anywhere within the available map area of a city. And those were pretty open. But if you were at Monteriggioni for example and wanted to go to another city, you were funneled into traversing a narrow canyon and then fast-traveled to the other city. Those individual map areas were quite small relative to everything before AC3. And in AC2 you had to progress the story to open up areas of the maps so it wasn't truly open-world. So while you weren't really "on a rail" as such, you were nudged along geographically by the narrative quite a bit.

Well every open world game is like that. In the GTA games and RDR, certain sections of the map opened up only as the story progressed. There are very few that the open world is truly fully open and available at the start, all missions all the time any order. And generally those kind of games are thin on story and plot, because naturally that's the kind of stories that accomodate that kind of extreme open world, hence why he likes Phantom Pain so much, stuff like plot, character and other stuff are pared down so as to accomodate open world.

Even GTA-V, okay all the map is open at the start, but you don't play all three protagonists and pick anyone right of the bat, it takes a while before Trevor comes in.

In the case of AC1, unlike all the games afterwards, you can actually choose the order of your targets. Like after killing Tamir at Damascus, you can choose whether you want to take on Garnier in Acre or Talal in Jerusalem, both those assassinations are linked because Talal supplies mentally handicapped to Garnier. After that you can choose whichever order you want to take care of Montferrat, Abul Nuqood and Majd Addin, and after that between Jubair and Sibrand as well (unless I am not mistaken). This is something you can't even do in DISHONORED, where you have a great deal of freedom in terms of gameplay but the order in which you deal with the targets is fixed and pre-determined (for obvious narrative reasons since it's geared towards choices you make within the missions themselves).

AC3's New York section (Sequence 6) is the most railing of any AC game, and likewise the Haytham sections (Prologue, and Connor interactions) are super-linear.

ProdiGurl
10-26-2015, 01:24 PM
I'm loving Syndicate.

But the video was accurate, there are some who like what AC does (myself included) and others who have tired of it.

That's why there are 9/10 reviews and 4/10 reviews, and they are both right.
This basically describes me. I totally get his points but I'm loving ACS more than AC3 & 4 combined.

Some of it for me was setting and that's not AC's fault that I have no interest in ships or Pirates. What they mostly lacked for me was a good solid music soundtrack. The minute I got to AC3, the game literally hollowed out and felt dead to me. I was shocked that music was so important in AC to me but it was.
Brotherhood [City of Rome] & ACR had the best music imo & they carried the game and made it feel alive - even AC2 had memorable music. Jesper was brilliant.

One thing I've noticed in my gaming life (which I've been active in since before 1991) is that nothing can beat the first game or few games you play in a series. Repetition always sets in & things change. I remember falling in love with HALO when I played it on PC. I was just in awe of that world... from the 2nd game on, that same feeling never came back other than a little spark here or there (that warped me back to orig. HALO)... & it already felt repetitious. Not their fault, I just liked the original.
Same thing happens with movie sequels - you love the first movie but the sequel never recaptures what you felt in the first one & it's rarely better.

I just think this is the natural way of gaming - and maybe it is much like a real relationship w/ a girl/boyfriend?
The 'honeymoon" stage wears off, all that original excitement & newness wears off as your relationship moves along & matures... it's almost impossible to recapture that first feeling.
Some of it tho, I agree is a Ubi decision mistake. There should always be some darker mystery going on imo. I miss that so much. Not puzzles so much, but I really did like finding all those 'invisible' symbols in AC2 to solve the mystery.

I could say a whole lot more on other issues like would a deeper, more complex game story work well for today's gamer generation with less attn span? (are sales better this way?).. when you start adding in other story archs (Desmond, etc.), it can make understanding the game dependent on playing previous games)? - but I think it's a mixture of typical game saturation and some less likeable Ubi decisions.
There's such a diverse AC fan base

MT4K
10-26-2015, 01:30 PM
Well the fact is each city was different from each other and each section was unique so it didn't feel repititive if you actually replayed the game. I think people feel it's repititve because the don't like the Levantine setting all that much.

I myself never had a problem with the setting itself and actually enjoyed it. I suppose if you lack interest in a setting it would contribute towards finding it less engaging or fun, but for the most part i've found the settings to be pretty well designed to the point that even if i wasn't that interested in the setting itself (ac3) i still had fun wandering around and getting immersed into them. Though not so much the cities for ac3. more the frontier is where i spent most of my time.

That could also be why i personally found ac1 somewhat repetitive. the time spent. I took my time walking around the cities in ac1 including the kingdom and even in the future games. it wasn't until ac3 where i felt like i didn't explore every inch (besides the frontier). Not that boston and new york were bad, but they just kind of lacked something from the past cities that made me want to explore them. Still i did 100% them and explored as much as i could, but it wasn't as exhilarating or interesting as in past cities or the frontier. Then came the pirate game and i just lost interest for the most part after that.

Since then i've just not been grabbed like i used to be. Especially in regards to the atmosphere of them. I've mentioned it multiple times in the past and in pms to friends when talking about the games, but one of the biggest things i miss from ac1 was the atmosphere around the assassinations.

I'll copy and paste what i said to Assassin_M in a pm regarding this. Cleaning it up a little.

"I still miss the atmosphere from AC1. Nothing so far in the series for me has beaten the atmosphere of slowly creeping towards the target using social stealth and assassinating them. then suddenly having all the bells ringing in the city. the city gates closing on you so you can't escape, the whole feeling it exudes is "i have to run and get away" even though you can stay and kill them all. It was actually more fun to run and the scene, guards and bells ect added to the feeling that you needed to do so. I wish they would bring that kind of feeling back."

To which assassin_M actually replied with a great idea and a missed opportunity imo from ubisoft. He said.

"Agreed so much. They kind of had a chance with Syndicate with the introduction of the police. They could have added sirens, whistles, road blocks...etc to make it feel more epic...but they didn't."

Even ac2 lost that sort of feeling and it has never really returned and it makes me sad every time i replay ac1 for those kind of moments.

edit: prodigirl probably pointed out a contribution to why i felt less love to the cities in ac3. lack of background music. It worked ok for the frontier for the most part, but the cities truly felt lacking without the background music for sure and was a big contributing factor to why i found them less engaging.

Many memories of walking around venice and rome listening to the music and it always bugged me when at the end of revelations the background music had a bug that made it stop playing grrr. Did that ever get fixed? lol i need to replay the games again sometime :p.

ProdiGurl
10-26-2015, 02:01 PM
I'll copy and paste what i said to Assassin_M in a pm regarding this. Cleaning it up a little.

"I still miss the atmosphere from AC1. Nothing so far in the series for me has beaten the atmosphere of slowly creeping towards the target using social stealth and assassinating them. then suddenly having all the bells ringing in the city. the city gates closing on you so you can't escape, the whole feeling it exudes is "i have to run and get away" even though you can stay and kill them all. It was actually more fun to run and the scene, guards and bells ect added to the feeling that you needed to do so. I wish they would bring that kind of feeling back."

To which assassin_M actually replied with a great idea and a missed opportunity imo from ubisoft. He said.

"Agreed so much. They kind of had a chance with Syndicate with the introduction of the police. They could have added sirens, whistles, road blocks...etc to make it feel more epic...but they didn't."

Even ac2 lost that sort of feeling and it has never really returned and it makes me sad every time i replay ac1 for those kind of moments.

edit: prodigirl probably pointed out a contribution to why i felt less love to the cities in ac3. lack of background music. It worked ok for the frontier for the most part, but the cities truly felt lacking without the background music for sure and was a big contributing factor to why i found them less engaging.

Many memories of walking around venice and rome listening to the music and it always bugged me when at the end of revelations the background music had a bug that made it stop playing grrr. Did that ever get fixed? lol i need to replay the games again sometime :p.

I'm early in the game now, but ACS's main flaw so far that hurts the game a little imo, is lack of consequence & I think that ties in w/ your point above. I was sneaking around trying to be undetected and got spotted & had to kill the guy in front of some kids & other workers... so I kill him in plain sight & there was hardly any reaction whatsoever. They just go on about their chores. :confused: That breaks immersion for me because it's so outrageously unrealistic.At least so far, that could change as missions get harder.

ACS at least has music going on, it's not a Jesper soundtrack but it's a lot better than dead silence. Due to the type of music, I think it's helping ACS seem more 'lighthearted' as people have been commenting on. The music isn't as serious (so far) as previous games but it's probly due to the Jolly old England thing.?

And I had the same ACR bug - music cut out on me and wouldn't come back. I'd turn the game off & restart to get it back - I just hate dead silence around a city. Kills my game.:(

Tyrhydion
10-26-2015, 02:15 PM
The only game that came close to the romance I had with AC2 and ACB was Black Flag. That magic moment when you control baby Ezios limbs never returned in any game. Revelation started to frustrate me and ACIII was full of chores and lacking the fun. I did not bother to play through Liberation HD, which was terribly boring.
Rogue again was just a copy and paste of Black Flag and therefore rather boring again. However Unity got me with the fascinating environment, but the gameplay was basic and underwhelming.

Chronicles China somehow was more interesting. It connected some dots, a jump and run in 2,5D, with an arch to Ezio and many elements of the gameplay, but just from a different and steady angle.

The reviewer and thread opener is right with every point he made. AC is just an old cow kept alive for her last drop of milk. I dont expect the franchise to go forward for many years.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 02:42 PM
If you suffered through Unity only to get mad at AC Syndicate, I can't help but think that you never knew what the "soul" of Assassins Creed was to begin with.

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 03:06 PM
If you suffered through Unity only to get mad at AC Syndicate, I can't help but think that you never knew what the "soul" of Assassins Creed was to begin with.

Amen.

MT4K
10-26-2015, 03:49 PM
If you suffered through Unity only to get mad at AC Syndicate, I can't help but think that you never knew what the "soul" of Assassins Creed was to begin with.

Is this just a blanket statement or directed toward somebody in particular? I ask mostly out of curiosity because i thought it was well known that people did get mad at unity.

Not that i agree with the statement itself. It's possible for somebody to enjoy unity and dislike syndicate. That's up to the individual person and nobody else has the right to tell them they are wrong or their opinion on the "soul" of the franchise is invalid.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 04:20 PM
Is this just a blanket statement or directed toward somebody in particular? I ask mostly out of curiosity because i thought it was well known that people did get mad at unity.

Not that i agree with the statement itself. It's possible for somebody to enjoy unity and dislike syndicate. That's up to the individual person and nobody else has the right to tell them they are wrong or their opinion on the "soul" of the franchise is invalid.

This is to OP, STDIyMcStudpants. My point is, why rant now? This game is, in mine and MANY others' opinions, a huge leap forward for the series since Unity- the best AC game in years (and for me, possibly my all time favorite). The fact that people are still complaining this year seems silly and strange to me. Constructive criticism is one thing, but whining about completely subjective concepts like the series "losing its soul" is simply not something that I can take seriously.

SofaJockey
10-26-2015, 04:40 PM
Also interesting (using UK data (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/161168-Assassins-Creed-Syndicate-Tops-UK-Charts)) that sales of Syndicate are not matching Unity,
despite Syndicate being a patently better game.

And if anywhere should get a sales boost from this setting it should be the UK.

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 04:42 PM
Also interesting (using UK data (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/161168-Assassins-Creed-Syndicate-Tops-UK-Charts)) that sales of Syndicate are not matching Unity,
despite Syndicate being a patently better game.

And if anywhere should get a sales boost from this setting it should be the UK.

It happens that a franchise game after a weak release trails behind. Word of mouth matters a lot.

MT4K
10-26-2015, 04:42 PM
This is to OP, STDIyMcStudpants. My point is, why rant now? This game is, in mine and MANY others' opinions, a huge leap forward for the series since Unity- the best AC game in years (and for me, possibly my all time favorite). The fact that people are still complaining this year seems silly and strange to me. Constructive criticism is one thing, but whining about completely subjective concepts like the series "losing its soul" is simply not something that I can take seriously.


Very well. thank you for explaining. I haven't played syndicate myself so i honestly can only judge based on what i read from others or see in videos. Sure it's not wowing me at the moment and i'm not likely to play it immediately but i'll likely end up picking it up when i get a chance (too many backlogged games to deal with first :P) since the majority seems to be that it's a move in the right direction and somewhat going back to the roots more than recent years. I may not find it that good right now but when i play it that may change so here's hoping.

I was just concerned over the statement you said. Like i stated above. it is possible for somebody to like unity and dislike syndicate, even if it would be pretty rare considering from what i'm reading syndicate is fixing up things from unity, but it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Thus me being one who believes everybody has a right to their own opinions. found the statement a little off putting. Hope that's understandable? I sometimes have trouble putting what i truly mean into words and end up trying to explain and making it more awkward :p

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 04:55 PM
I was just concerned over the statement you said. Like i stated above. it is possible for somebody to like unity and dislike syndicate, even if it would be pretty rare considering from what i'm reading syndicate is fixing up things from unity, but it doesn't mean it's impossible.

Thus me being one who believes everybody has a right to their own opinions. found the statement a little off putting. Hope that's understandable? I sometimes have trouble putting what i truly mean into words and end up trying to explain and making it more awkward :p

Of course everyone's open to their own opinions!
That's precisely why I said the thing that I did, in fact. While you're certainly free to feel how you want to about a game, you cannot look at an AC game that actually scored pretty well and whine about it and expect to be taken seriously.

For instance, Syndicate scored generally around 70-90/100. The Telegraph gave it a 40/100. To me, that doesn't mean that Syndicate is a 40/100, or even that it should be included in the average. That's simply an outlying piece of data, and shows a lack of professionalism on The Telegraph's part when it comes to their competitors. So while OP's opinion is certainly subjective, and therefore cannot by definition be "wrong", that also doesn't mean that its very supportable.

phoenix-force411
10-26-2015, 05:15 PM
I've always kept a thoughtful mind on the games and how they've changed. Ubisoft is a company as said by Assassin_M, and they need to make money. Fans are important in which direction they should take, but fans are always complaining about every little thing, and most of them are unnecessary. Like Assassin_M said, the ancestor and their time period is what makes Assassin's Creed interesting and that's where they are making more money from. Ubisoft aims Assassin's Creed towards a very broad audience, and it may be that target marketing that is hurting the games, but it has also brought in more fans. I don't think things will ever go back to the way they were from AC1-ACIII, but Syndicate has gone back to some of the roots unlike Unity where they did stray pretty far from their original formula. Some hated Unity, some didn't. While I'm not a fan of the Unity campaign nor the pointless MD in Unity, I still enjoyed it and I still play it from time to time. It has good replay value.

The MD is still strong, but from ACIV-ACU(I'm not done with ACS yet), we have not learned very much at all. The MD has so much story in the background, but Ubisoft is unwilling to shed more light on it. I don't care about playable MD, but please, stop dragging the MD, and get to where the interesting things are. The Assassin vs Templar war can't hold on its own, because it's too weak without a leading protagonist or character. After ACIII, I sort of knew that the AC games would not be the same as they were now that the other main conflict has been dealt with: The End of the World plot. As of right now, I see no point in revisiting genetic memories. Bishop and the assassins are literally wasting time searching for some pointless POE and Sage corpse.

MT4K
10-26-2015, 05:46 PM
Of course everyone's open to their own opinions!
That's precisely why I said the thing that I did, in fact. While you're certainly free to feel how you want to about a game, you cannot look at an AC game that actually scored pretty well and whine about it and expect to be taken seriously.

For instance, Syndicate scored generally around 70-90/100. The Telegraph gave it a 40/100. To me, that doesn't mean that Syndicate is a 40/100, or even that it should be included in the average. That's simply an outlying piece of data, and shows a lack of professionalism on The Telegraph's part when it comes to their competitors. So while OP's opinion is certainly subjective, and therefore cannot by definition be "wrong", that also doesn't mean that its very supportable.

Ugghh that telegraph review was ridiculous. Of course the person's free to feel that way, but it's hard to take it seriously for sure when it's such a low score. Even a majority of those who aren't liking syndicate don't seem to score it THAT low which gives the impression that they just had some kind of bone to pick with the series or something instead of actually reviewing it properly.

Fair enough though if they are his true feelings as i'm sure there's others out there who feel the same way, but it's one of the reasons why i don't take reviews too seriously and mostly with a grain of salt.

I try not to judge a game based only on the reviews, but what the people actually playing it are saying, Then combining it all and making my own decision based on what i read/see. I try not to pre-order games anymore unless i'm rather positive i'll like it so i generally have time to make an informed decision once people have had proper hands on and given there opinions. Considering recent ac games. i don't think many will blame me for not pre-ordering syndicate and biding my time at the very least :D.

In regards to whining? Well as long as it's somewhat constructive and can generate some kind of discussion then i see no problems. Feedback good and bad is generally useful even if a majority doesn't agree. At least it can get people talking and potentially coming up with ideas that please both parties. Or at the least have them come to an understanding or agreement.

It's definitely the "this is bad cus i said so" ones that are problems though. I liked the video even with some disagreements with it and i like that there's been some good points made by others such as Sushi, Prodigirl, and vestigail, and any others i forgot to mention. I just like the points being raised currently in this thread. Whether they match my own feelings or not.

So thanks to everybody who has posted good thought out replies and taken it seriously. I'm enjoying learning how others feel about the series in a mostly productive way and their opinions regarding syndicate.

Edit: I apologise for my constant long posts. It didn't seem this long while typing :S. I'll probably back off for a bit now lol.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 07:13 PM
In regards to whining? Well as long as it's somewhat constructive and can generate some kind of discussion then i see no problems.


Is it, though? I have a hard time believing a video titled "Breaking Up With Assassins Creed" has much constructive to add.


Edit: I apologise for my constant long posts. It didn't seem this long while typing :S. I'll probably back off for a bit now lol.
Haha, no worries! I'm often the same way!

MT4K
10-26-2015, 07:39 PM
Is it, though? I have a hard time believing a video titled "Breaking Up With Assassins Creed" has much constructive to add.


Haha, no worries! I'm often the same way!

Well video title aside ... I presume you watched the video yourself. So in that sense i guess we just differ in opinions there. I don't think he was whining in the video and just giving his feelings about how the series has changed. It was put together in a decent way and didn't come across as somebody just complaining. He wasn't telling ubisoft to change the series back to how it used to be. He wasn't telling anybody to agree with him. He was just sharing his own opinion and feelings regarding the series and saying it's no longer going in a direction that appeals to him. At least from memory i cannot recall a moment where he says anything along the lines of "they should do things this way" or "people should not be enjoying it".

The title just points to the idea that he is kind of leaving the AC series behind. Whether he actually does or not time can only tell. Either way i'm not leaving the series behind myself and intend to keep watching for information so it doesn't bother me what he does in that regard.

Compared to how many other people like to complain about games. I certainly consider it well put together and far more constructive. Not constructive in the sense of giving feedback on how things can be improved, but constructive in the way that it seemed like it was thought about seriously before making the video. Perhaps constructive would be the wrong term though? Either way i found it much better compared to how many other "complaints" are portrayed not just for AC but many games.

(Yeah i couldn't resist replying. At least it's a little shorter muhaha).

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 08:06 PM
Well video title aside ... I presume you watched the video yourself. So in that sense i guess we just differ in opinions there. I don't think he was whining in the video and just giving his feelings about how the series has changed. It was put together in a decent way and didn't come across as somebody just complaining. He wasn't telling ubisoft to change the series back to how it used to be. He wasn't telling anybody to agree with him. He was just sharing his own opinion and feelings regarding the series and saying it's no longer going in a direction that appeals to him. At least from memory i cannot recall a moment where he says anything along the lines of "they should do things this way" or "people should not be enjoying it".


Perhaps, and I suppose he was pretty open about how subjective his points are. I think it's interesting that this thread has so much traffic this morning, while the "It's the Little Things..." one was also so popular, since the maker of this video's biggest issue with the series seemed to be that it has become too gamey and less immersive.

Personally, I can't help but feel that anyone who thinks ACII is more immersive than modern games (even ACU) is looking back with too heavy a set of rose-colored glasses. Remember the Carnivale mission? I'd argue that it's the most video-gamey section of any AC game to date, yet this guy says that ACII strikes a balance while ACIV's beautiful and almost seamless open world feels to contrived. Again, I know everyone has their own opinions, but I just disagree with this guy on a fundamental level.




Compared to how many other people like to complain about games. I certainly consider it well put together and far more constructive.
Well, his arguments did seem to be about the ethereal "feeling" that the games gave him, and I have a tough time taking that seriously- but I do appreciate that he didn't come across as another AVGN or Angry Joe, and in fact seemed to be well spoken, even if his argument was a bit tenuous.


(Yeah i couldn't resist replying. At least it's a little shorter muhaha).
Haha, it's ok! I wrote a bit of a book here too.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-26-2015, 08:39 PM
If you suffered through Unity only to get mad at AC Syndicate, I can't help but think that you never knew what the "soul" of Assassins Creed was to begin with.

Detach yourself from words.. feel them instead.
I actually praised unity for the game it was...
I was one of the few critics to give it a higher score than an 8/10
As an overall game I gave it an 8.5.. but if i were to review it as strictly an assassins creed game it would be lucky to go beyond a 3
Noone is arguing that the games are bad.. just that the heart that was once there is missing...
Hands used to knit every blanket.. now a machine makes them instead

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 09:24 PM
Detach yourself from words.. feel them instead.
I actually praised unity for the game it was...
I was one of the few critics to give it a higher score than an 8/10
As an overall game I gave it an 8.5.. but if i were to review it as strictly an assassins creed game it would be lucky to go beyond a 3
Noone is arguing that the games are bad.. just that the heart that was once there is missing...
Hands used to knit every blanket.. now a machine makes them instead

It's great that you liked Unity. I also thought it was much better than the general populace seemed to think. But when you're making claims as subjective as "the hear that was once there is missing", they can be just as easily dismissed.

Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, though. I'd actually agree that the "heart" of AC was not in Unity- it seemed inherently detached from the rest of the series. However, I feel that it's returned in Syndicate, in a way that we haven't seen since the closure of the Ezio trilogy.

But, of course, that's just my subjective opinion.


Hands used to knit every blanket.. now a machine makes them instead
:p
As if Ubisoft was some small startup company during the release of AC2... I'm telling you, you're looking at the previous games with fuzzy rose-colored glasses if you think that.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-26-2015, 09:44 PM
It's great that you liked Unity. I also thought it was much better than the general populace seemed to think. But when you're making claims as subjective as "the hear that was once there is missing", they can be just as easily dismissed.

Not that I don't understand where you're coming from, though. I'd actually agree that the "heart" of AC was not in Unity- it seemed inherently detached from the rest of the series. However, I feel that it's returned in Syndicate, in a way that we haven't seen since the closure of the Ezio trilogy.

But, of course, that's just my subjective opinion.


:p
As if Ubisoft was some small startup company during the release of AC2... I'm telling you, you're looking at the previous games with fuzzy rose-colored glasses if you think that.

I played every ac game besides revelations for the first time in 2012
there are no rose colored glasses....
I dont believe my claim is subjective at all...
I believe that heart is one of the easiest things to feel from a game
Spongebob Battle For Bikini Bottom and Spongebob Planktons Robotic Revenge
One of these games was made with love for an ip, the other was made with a love for money (im not saying it has to be one or the other, they are a business.. there can be passion AND money)
The last of us, witcher 3, Assassins Creed 1-3, Mario Galaxy.... These games aren't great because of their mechanics.. they are great because of their heart
Where you have games like Mario Maker, Call of Duty, and Now Assassin's Creed where they are relying on their mechanics...
What makes AC differ from Mario Maker or COD is that ACs mechanics were never great to begin with and putting them front and center is a massive mistake...
As someone stated earlier, its become a AAA mobile game.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 09:48 PM
I dont believe my claim is subjective at all...


Then quantify or qualify it...

Look, subjectivity isn't necessarily a bad thing. But what you're essentially saying is "this game does not have hear, and no one can interpret it any other way"- all that, without really defining what "heart" even is!

"Not subjective at all"... :rolleyes:

STDlyMcStudpants
10-26-2015, 09:55 PM
Then quantify or qualify it...

Look, subjectivity isn't necessarily a bad thing. But what you're essentially saying is "this game does not have hear, and no one can interpret it any other way"- all that, without really defining what "heart" even is!

"Not subjective at all"... :rolleyes:

again, try to feel my words rather than become attached to them in a formal way.
If you can't tell the difference between when passion was put into a game rather than just a budget, theme, and deadline..
You my friend need to broaden your gaming library.
We are starting to see this in other places too..
TTGs for example..
They strike gold with Walking Dead.. now they are just making themed games with the same engine that dont even have a percentage of the heart that TWD S1, S2, or the Wolf Among Us had...
You can't put heart on a scale.. there is no check box for passion..
You're trying to humanize something we can't understand (like many try to do when they point to God and ask for proof)
It's just something there that can't be measured.. only felt.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 10:06 PM
again, try to feel my words rather than become attached to them in a formal way.


Trust me, I'm not attached to them at all. Your New Age approach to communication seems to be nothing more than an excuse in place of an argument.


You my friend need to broaden your gaming library.

My library is plenty broad, thank you very much. Couldn't you "feel" that from what I was typing? :p


TTGs for example..
They strike gold with Walking Dead.. now they are just making themed games with the same engine that dont even have a percentage of the heart that TWD S1, S2, or the Wolf Among Us had...

Actually, I liked A Game of Thrones TTG far more than any of The Walking Dead.
*gasp!* I have my own opinion about something! Can't wait to hear how I'm objectively wrong because I "felt" it differently!

STDlyMcStudpants
10-26-2015, 10:12 PM
Actually, I liked A Game of Thrones TTG far more than any of The Walking Dead.
*gasp!* I have my own opinion about something! Can't wait to hear how I'm objectively wrong because I "felt" it differently!

i havent played game of thrones.. but Minecraft Storymode (their newest installment) is clearly just a themed game.
Much like assassins creed has become...

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 10:35 PM
i havent played game of thrones.. but Minecraft Storymode (their newest installment) is clearly just a themed game.


To be honest, I know very little about that.


Much like assassins creed has become, in my opinion...
Fixed that for ya

STDlyMcStudpants
10-26-2015, 11:02 PM
To be honest, I know very little about that.


Fixed that for ya

not an opinion (even if it IS( i dont believe it is).. but by me stating it makes it an opinion by default, 'in my opinion' doesn't need to be added)... i havent played Syndicate yet..
AC4 was just a pirate themed game
ACRo was just an assassins creed themed game
ACU was just a paris themed game...
i wouldnt consider any of them assassins creed games... at least not compared to AC1-3

MT4K
10-26-2015, 11:24 PM
Perhaps, and I suppose he was pretty open about how subjective his points are. I think it's interesting that this thread has so much traffic this morning, while the "It's the Little Things..." one was also so popular, since the maker of this video's biggest issue with the series seemed to be that it has become too gamey and less immersive.

haha that's actually true and quite funny. It's a great thread and i'm pretty sure there used to be similar kind of thread years ago. Probably for ac3. Like people would mention the animals interactions and things.


Personally, I can't help but feel that anyone who thinks ACII is more immersive than modern games (even ACU) is looking back with too heavy a set of rose-colored glasses. Remember the Carnivale mission? I'd argue that it's the most video-gamey section of any AC game to date, yet this guy says that ACII strikes a balance while ACIV's beautiful and almost seamless open world feels to contrived. Again, I know everyone has their own opinions, but I just disagree with this guy on a fundamental level.

Well i obviously cannot speak for the guy in the video so i won't try to defend his views or anything. I can only speak from my own perspective and as such - I enjoyed the atmosphere of the carnival area itself, but then i liked venice quite a blt as a city in general. I do agree that section was very gamey though mission wise. Most of my personal immersion in regards to the ezio trilogy was free roaming around the cities. Rome was beautiful to roam around in for example, But again brotherhood's missions were extremely gamey. Using a tank and machine gun ect.

Was they fun? Sure, but they wasn't "immersive" at least to me because they felt extremely out of place and kind of took you out of the world (granted they were side missions but the side content imo is a good way to increase or decrease immersion). Yes they may have been real designs, but at least to me they didn't really fit and switched my mindset from "i'm part of this place" to "ok, game mode on". I still enjoyed them though and at the end of the day that's a game's purpose. Enjoyment.

I still think AC1 was probably the most immersive for me. The assassinations seemed very professional and it felt like you was a true assassin. I liked how you had to gather information about the target yourself and then could choose to do more than the required missions to gather extra information. It was very immersive getting a map of guard positions and things and then making use of them to approach the target. Then like i mentioned previously regarding the chases afterwards. It all seemed realistic to how things could have happened and sucked me into the world itself.

See that's another thing i wish was more implemented into the games. The side missions having some kind of impact, connection or relation to the main story/missions. Beating up husbands for instance isn't immersive. Why should an assassin care about solving these mundane problems? Shouldn't he be gathering information or scouting an area or something to assist with his actual goals :p.



Well, his arguments did seem to be about the ethereal "feeling" that the games gave him, and I have a tough time taking that seriously- but I do appreciate that he didn't come across as another AVGN or Angry Joe, and in fact seemed to be well spoken, even if his argument was a bit tenuous.

Well i don't really know how to explain it myself either. I agree it's a difficult thing for some to take seriously because well realistically what IS the soul of a game? Games constantly change and evolve and let's be honest. If they didn't they would become boring much faster. I realise and accept that and want that to happen of course because i want games to improve. I guess it's possible some of us do look at the older games with a little bit of tinted glasses. I won't admit or deny myself being one of them because i honestly couldn't tell you if that was the case or not. I do try to remain mostly neutral and subjective though and not let nostalgia and such cloud my judgements, but i'm only human so it can and with some games does happen (Chrono Trigger *cough*, Conker's Bad Fur Day *cough* among others :p).

All i can say on behalf of myself is. I used to have this feeling of excitement and wonder as if there was some kind of magic about the games' world which just isn't there anymore. It's difficult to really explain though. If you just don't have those kind of feelings then i guess nothing anybody says will really make much difference. It seems to be one of those things that people either seem to have or don't have.



Haha, it's ok! I wrote a bit of a book here too.

I just hate how sometimes typing long replies can make you miss new posts in a thread. I tend to have to recheck before posting in case i want to also reply to something new :p.

SixKeys
10-27-2015, 02:59 AM
Personally, I can't help but feel that anyone who thinks ACII is more immersive than modern games (even ACU) is looking back with too heavy a set of rose-colored glasses. Remember the Carnivale mission? I'd argue that it's the most video-gamey section of any AC game to date, yet this guy says that ACII strikes a balance while ACIV's beautiful and almost seamless open world feels to contrived. Again, I know everyone has their own opinions, but I just disagree with this guy on a fundamental level.


Agreed about Carnevale being game-y, but the way I see it, Carnevale was self-aware and that's what made it fun. I mean, Capture The Flag? Come on, that's funny. There's a lot of this self-awareness in some of the best titles in the series, including AC4 (especially in modern day).

I still find AC2 to be more immersive than AC4. The crowds in AC2 are more interactive, they react to your socially unacceptable actions in different ways. Some of them will push you, some will run away, some will pick a fight if you make them drop what they're carrying etc. Pickpockets will either taunt you if they get away with your money ("You can't catch me!") or curse to themselves if you start chasing them ("Leave me alone, I just want to eat!"). Sometimes rooftop guards will even chase after the pickpocket, meaning you're not the only person they react to. Merchants are calling out to customers from their stalls, you hear their cries no matter where you are in the city.

None of this is present in AC4. That leaves the world feeling slightly more artificial, which is what the guy in the video is arguing. It doesn't feel like the cities have a life of their own because people's responses to you are less varied and NPCs don't act like they're aware of each other. Shopkeepers don't attempt to attract customers, they don't seem to give a crap if anyone buys their wares or not. You're among pirates but no drunken fights ever break out between NPCs over a card game or something. You're the only criminal the guards react to, etc. The world feels constructed around the player instead of the player being dropped into a world that functions even without them. One of the only exceptions to this in AC4 - and one of my favorite things in the game - is that ships at sea will react to each other and fight if the other ship is flying the enemy's flag. Sometimes I just like to sit on a little playa and watch two Man-o-Wars duke it out amongst themselves without even being aware of me. Those are great moments because it feels like the world goes on living without you, you can just be a spectator and enjoy watching the cogs at work. This is what makes games like RDR immersive, too.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-27-2015, 03:57 AM
Agreed about Carnevale being game-y, but the way I see it, Carnevale was self-aware and that's what made it fun. I mean, Capture The Flag? Come on, that's funny. There's a lot of this self-awareness in some of the best titles in the series, including AC4 (especially in modern day).

I still find AC2 to be more immersive than AC4. The crowds in AC2 are more interactive, they react to your socially unacceptable actions in different ways. Some of them will push you, some will run away, some will pick a fight if you make them drop what they're carrying etc. Pickpockets will either taunt you if they get away with your money ("You can't catch me!") or curse to themselves if you start chasing them ("Leave me alone, I just want to eat!"). Sometimes rooftop guards will even chase after the pickpocket, meaning you're not the only person they react to. Merchants are calling out to customers from their stalls, you hear their cries no matter where you are in the city.

None of this is present in AC4. That leaves the world feeling slightly more artificial, which is what the guy in the video is arguing. It doesn't feel like the cities have a life of their own because people's responses to you are less varied and NPCs don't act like they're aware of each other. Shopkeepers don't attempt to attract customers, they don't seem to give a crap if anyone buys their wares or not. You're among pirates but no drunken fights ever break out between NPCs over a card game or something. You're the only criminal the guards react to, etc. The world feels constructed around the player instead of the player being dropped into a world that functions even without them. One of the only exceptions to this in AC4 - and one of my favorite things in the game - is that ships at sea will react to each other and fight if the other ship is flying the enemy's flag. Sometimes I just like to sit on a little playa and watch two Man-o-Wars duke it out amongst themselves without even being aware of me. Those are great moments because it feels like the world goes on living without you, you can just be a spectator and enjoy watching the cogs at work. This is what makes games like RDR immersive, too.

This is perfect...
I think the magic that the first 5 games had is as you said the world goes on without you....
The magic has never been in the missions or the story.. its been in the living breathing world...
Its the moments between missions, its the post game... its the moments between each collectible that made the ezio trilogy specifically even more magical (especially brotherhood)
Assassins Creed could just be a game about collectibles, but bring back those moments and thats all it needs to be...
Map cleaning is fun when it never feels like thats all it is.

SenseHomunculus
10-27-2015, 02:45 PM
Also interesting (using UK data (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/news/view/161168-Assassins-Creed-Syndicate-Tops-UK-Charts)) that sales of Syndicate are not matching Unity,
despite Syndicate being a patently better game.

And if anywhere should get a sales boost from this setting it should be the UK.

You would think so, but I think the opposite may be true.

Our company's main office is in London and most of the "natives" there don't care very much about London from a tourist/visitor's perspective. What I mean by that is its history and things that non-Londoners might be more curious about. In my trips over there I've had to drag lifelong Londoners along on "touristy" walking tours I enjoy taking, and they end up seeing things through visitors' eyes and appreciating what they have so much more. It's like how the majority of New Yorkers have never been to the Statue of Liberty, even though it's right there. You take it for granted.

cawatrooper9
10-27-2015, 03:13 PM
Well i obviously cannot speak for the guy in the video so i won't try to defend his views or anything. I can only speak from my own perspective and as such - I enjoyed the atmosphere of the carnival area itself, but then i liked venice quite a blt as a city in general. I do agree that section was very gamey though mission wise. Most of my personal immersion in regards to the ezio trilogy was free roaming around the cities. Rome was beautiful to roam around in for example, But again brotherhood's missions were extremely gamey. Using a tank and machine gun ect.



Agreed about Carnevale being game-y, but the way I see it, Carnevale was self-aware and that's what made it fun. I mean, Capture The Flag? Come on, that's funny. There's a lot of this self-awareness in some of the best titles in the series, including AC4 (especially in modern day).

Know what's self aware? A video game.

It's fine that you guys like the Carnevale atmosphere- I do too. But it's not at all immersive. That's just not the right argument to justify that section of the game.


I still think AC1 was probably the most immersive for me. The assassinations seemed very professional and it felt like you was a true assassin. I liked how you had to gather information about the target yourself and then could choose to do more than the required missions to gather extra information. It was very immersive getting a map of guard positions and things and then making use of them to approach the target. Then like i mentioned previously regarding the chases afterwards. It all seemed realistic to how things could have happened and sucked me into the world itself.
I'd agree that there were elements of AC1 that were pretty immersive, it was an enjoyable game. My favorite immersive element of it may be how the HUD seems to be less in the way than subsequent games. However, subsequent games have done a lot to rectify its sins, as well. For me, the two biggest issues with AC1's immersion are the constant repetition of crowd phrases (I'm pretty sure I've heard "Thief! I'll have your hand for that!" about 999,999 times during my various playthroughs) and the fuzzy Animus glitches when running from combat or near desynchronization.





I still find AC2 to be more immersive than AC4. The crowds in AC2 are more interactive, they react to your socially unacceptable actions in different ways. Some of them will push you, some will run away, some will pick a fight if you make them drop what they're carrying etc. Pickpockets will either taunt you if they get away with your money ("You can't catch me!") or curse to themselves if you start chasing them ("Leave me alone, I just want to eat!"). Sometimes rooftop guards will even chase after the pickpocket, meaning you're not the only person they react to. Merchants are calling out to customers from their stalls, you hear their cries no matter where you are in the city.

None of this is present in AC4. That leaves the world feeling slightly more artificial, which is what the guy in the video is arguing. It doesn't feel like the cities have a life of their own because people's responses to you are less varied and NPCs don't act like they're aware of each other. Shopkeepers don't attempt to attract customers, they don't seem to give a crap if anyone buys their wares or not. You're among pirates but no drunken fights ever break out between NPCs over a card game or something. You're the only criminal the guards react to, etc. The world feels constructed around the player instead of the player being dropped into a world that functions even without them. One of the only exceptions to this in AC4 - and one of my favorite things in the game - is that ships at sea will react to each other and fight if the other ship is flying the enemy's flag. Sometimes I just like to sit on a little playa and watch two Man-o-Wars duke it out amongst themselves without even being aware of me. Those are great moments because it feels like the world goes on living without you, you can just be a spectator and enjoy watching the cogs at work. This is what makes games like RDR immersive, too.
First of all, I fanboyed out so hard when I first saw two ships fighting eachother without my involvement at all, so I totally get where you're coming from there.

Now, I may agree that crowds are less interactive on some level. You can't pickpocket (if I remember correctly) and there are less courtesans/militia available for hire. However, I'm not sure that crowds are all that important for this game. You're going from densely packed European streets to the shanty town of Nassau... I think the setting has more to do with that than anything.

Also, the world is more alive than you seem to realize. Taverns have bands playing in them, you can still overhear conversations, there are even old men playing board games with each other. I wouldn't argue that it's anything as impressive as an open world like Skyrim, but if you think AC2 is really all that much better, I'd urge you to replay it again and really be honest with yourself about whether or not nostalgia is clouding your judgment.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-27-2015, 08:00 PM
Also, the world is more alive than you seem to realize. Taverns have bands playing in them, you can still overhear conversations, there are even old men playing board games with each other. I wouldn't argue that it's anything as impressive as an open world like Skyrim, but if you think AC2 is really all that much better, I'd urge you to replay it again and really be honest with yourself about whether or not nostalgia is clouding your judgment.
What you explained isn't life... it's window trimming....
An area doesnt need to be vastly populated for it to feel living.. a great example from Black Flag is the mission where Black Beard dies... it starts out with you sitting around a campfire... everyone is having a good time, interacting with each other
THIS is life and its the tiniest section of the entire game!
The witcher 3 does a great job at bringing small camps to life, so nassau being small isn't an excuse for a lack of life...
AC IVs side missions with the assassins did an AMAZING job at bringing the world to life with the drunk guy mission for example....
It had its moments..
The problem is that these moments are stuck in the story and not in the world like they used to be...
Having an npc take the place of a jukebox and putting 2 people on a table and have them scratch their chin from time to time IS NOT LIFE
Life is beggars coming up to you,
Its the crowd yelling things at you, daring you to hit them, its being flirted with as you walk by, yelled at by merchants to buy things, merchants yelling at children as they grab things and run.. npcs yelling at each other and interacting as if they dont know the difference between you and them (not literally)
crowd is massively important in a game that has been about blending and traversing through crowds since the beginning.
The first tutorial we ever got was learning how to not knock pots off of peoples heads!
It was about the crowd!
Now its about hiding behind desks because people wanted ninjas creed

cawatrooper9
10-27-2015, 08:42 PM
What you explained isn't life... it's window trimming....
An area doesnt need to be vastly populated for it to feel living.. a great example from Black Flag is the mission where Black Beard dies... it starts out with you sitting around a campfire... everyone is having a good time, interacting with each other
THIS is life and its the tiniest section of the entire game!
The witcher 3 does a great job at bringing small camps to life, so nassau being small isn't an excuse for a lack of life...
AC IVs side missions with the assassins did an AMAZING job at bringing the world to life with the drunk guy mission for example....
It had its moments..
The problem is that these moments are stuck in the story and not in the world like they used to be...
Having an npc take the place of a jukebox and putting 2 people on a table and have them scratch their chin from time to time IS NOT LIFE
Life is beggars coming up to you,
Its the crowd yelling things at you, daring you to hit them, its being flirted with as you walk by, yelled at by merchants to buy things, merchants yelling at children as they grab things and run.. npcs yelling at each other and interacting as if they dont know the difference between you and them (not literally)
crowd is massively important in a game that has been about blending and traversing through crowds since the beginning.
The first tutorial we ever got was learning how to not knock pots off of peoples heads!
It was about the crowd!
Now its about hiding behind desks because people wanted ninjas creed
So, you're talking about the responsiveness of the crowds then? See, you can be more specific without resorting to pseudo-metaphysical references.

I'd agree, I wish that the crowds were more responsive- but make no mistake, the earlier games weren't as pristine in this aspect as you might think. Sure, everyone ran around like bees in a hive when you acted violently, but there were also members of the crowd who were too reactive. Specifically (and we were actually talking about this in a different thread recently) there are people such as the drunks/mental patients in AC1, the beggars and minstrels, the guys carrying boxes that drop them if you sneeze near them... The series may have a distinct lack of reactive crowds now, but if you didn't feel as if the crowd was there specifically for you the video game character in the other games- well, again, I'd assume that's your nostalgia talking.

Eurostar7
10-27-2015, 09:24 PM
The problem with AC now is that the game is story driven, not character driven like it was during Altair's and Ezio's story arcs. Even the musical scores on AC2, ACB and ACR were epic. Its hard to top Jesper Kyd's work but he seriously created the best music of the whole series.

Altair and Ezio we have seen their lives unfold, we've seen the people that crossed paths with them and how they affected them. Altair was a humble man and equally as wise. He was a stoic personality and sometimes poetic the way he talked about the 'Creed', somebody that isnt a chatterbox but is very respectable. Ezio's lost love, the loss of his parents by execution, his uncle, how he would climb buildings at night during his youth with his brother. In ACR you can see how weary Ezio became, he isnt the ladies man anymore but a more decorated person, you can tell he's seen many things in his lifetime.

So really, AC lacks a character driven story, its strictly plot based or basically just getting to the point quickly. Ubisoft doesnt take their time. Unity and Syndicate are lacking very much on story. Black Flag and Rogue, even though they are nowhere near the level of the Ezio games, are much richer story-wise than Unity and Syndicate. I think in Syndicate there were roughly 4 memories per sequence and just 8 sequences so story quality is severely lacking.

AC2 i think had 12 sequences and (2 are 'skipped' in the Animus because #12 and #13 are DLC) and each sequence was at least 3 memories, i know that Sequence 4 had 6 memories and Sequence 5 had 8 memories. So basically just those 2 sequences in AC2 are as long as 3 Sequences in Syndicate. Almost half the game.

Also while im here, im honestly not huge on collecting stuff. I love a good story, if ANYONE from Ubisoft is reading the forums, please try to stop the dev team from adding so much collectibles. Tone it down a bit, unless you make it extremely worth while to do it (the Aegis outfit was worth the collecting, and the 32 music boxes were a good amount). the Helix Glitches aren't even worth it IMO. You get what, ONE helix credit per Helix Glitch? I dont want that.

Eurostar7
10-27-2015, 09:47 PM
I also enjoyed getting out of the Animus during AC2 and discovering the emails, hacking the email accounts, finding out that Erudito is trying to contact me, the 'mysterious' red footprints outside of the Monterggionni, then going to the Colosseum and doing some parkour as Desmond to find a piece of eden.

The modern day back then felt like Indiana Jones or National Treasure with a bomb timer on you, because of the impending doom.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-27-2015, 10:02 PM
So, you're talking about the responsiveness of the crowds then? See, you can be more specific without resorting to pseudo-metaphysical references.

I'd agree, I wish that the crowds were more responsive- but make no mistake, the earlier games weren't as pristine in this aspect as you might think. Sure, everyone ran around like bees in a hive when you acted violently, but there were also members of the crowd who were too reactive. Specifically (and we were actually talking about this in a different thread recently) there are people such as the drunks/mental patients in AC1, the beggars and minstrels, the guys carrying boxes that drop them if you sneeze near them... The series may have a distinct lack of reactive crowds now, but if you didn't feel as if the crowd was there specifically for you the video game character in the other games- well, again, I'd assume that's your nostalgia talking.

The nostalgia argument cant be used against me...
You're not going to get anywhere using it
I played
ACR DEC 2011
AC1 OCT 2012
AC 3 NOV 2012
ACB DEC 2012
AC 2 JAN 2013
AC 4 DEC 2013
I played 5/6 of the games essentially within the same year!

Im not saying the crowds were PERFECT in the first 5 games.. im saying they were better than they are now and can become better with modern technology....

cawatrooper9
10-27-2015, 10:07 PM
I played 5/6 of the games essentially within the same year!

Im not saying the crowds were PERFECT in the first 5 games.. im saying they were better than they are now and can become better with modern technology....
Well, I suppose I just disagree with you on a fundamental level then. I liked the crowds alright, I suppose, but I found them to be far more of an annoyance than they were worth. Some of the grievances listed in my last post are certainly part of that feeling for me.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-28-2015, 06:33 AM
Well, I suppose I just disagree with you on a fundamental level then. I liked the crowds alright, I suppose, but I found them to be far more of an annoyance than they were worth. Some of the grievances listed in my last post are certainly part of that feeling for me.

I found them annoying too!
But the thing is if you go to a city like Miami in the united states, you can experience these things in real life,
They are annoying there too.
That is life!
The game is missing life.

SixKeys
10-28-2015, 06:45 AM
Yeah, the crowds in the early games weren't amazing, but they had so much potential to take it to the next level. To really make the world full of life and unexpected occurrences. But they've been moving further and further away from crowd interaction in favor of stock animations like card players or painters. Not that those aren't great too (loved the variety in Unity), but it would be awesome if card players weren't just pretending to be playing but acting like they were winning or losing. And you could sit down any time next to those players to start a card game or something, not have to go to an empty, designated table that takes you to a separate screen.

shobhit7777777
10-28-2015, 09:08 AM
Yeah, the crowds in the early games weren't amazing, but they had so much potential to take it to the next level. To really make the world full of life and unexpected occurrences. But they've been moving further and further away from crowd interaction in favor of stock animations like card players or painters. Not that those aren't great too (loved the variety in Unity), but it would be awesome if card players weren't just pretending to be playing but acting like they were winning or losing. And you could sit down any time next to those players to start a card game or something, not have to go to an empty, designated table that takes you to a separate screen.

+1

Would be a nice blending option...

Shahkulu101
10-28-2015, 11:23 AM
I must have missed something if the worlds of AC1/2 - BH were so much more drastically alive than the ones we have now...

Sure, the reacted a little more realistically to socially unacceptable actions, and it sucks that we've lost that, but apart from that how are the worlds anymore alive than they are now? I think the first games were just incredible to people because it was the first time they had gotten to explore a historical open world with such size and detail. Now that novelty has worn off despite new settings because it's something so familiar to us. And that's why we see no actual reason being explained for the old worlds being better, just empty, melodramatic rhetoric like "it's not as alive!".

Also what the **** is this guy talking about when it comes to ACR? It had far less content than both AC2 and BH...

Sushiglutton
10-28-2015, 01:42 PM
Personally, I can't help but feel that anyone who thinks ACII is more immersive than modern games (even ACU) is looking back with too heavy a set of rose-colored glasses. Remember the Carnivale mission? I'd argue that it's the most video-gamey section of any AC game to date, yet this guy says that ACII strikes a balance while ACIV's beautiful and almost seamless open world feels to contrived. Again, I know everyone has their own opinions, but I just disagree with this guy on a fundamental level.


I think you may be right and that this may have something to do with yearly releases.

Basically a game offers an illusion of a different world you can exist in. The first few hours of an OW game are the best as you (well I at least) subconciously tend to buy into the illusion. The world feels like it has no boundaries, there seems to be an endless amount of various stuff to do and the NPCs act like real people almost. Then slowly but surely your brain starts to decode the world. You start to notice the overall structure, instead of endless amount of activities there's a very limited set, you realize that there's very little you can actually interact with, you start to see NPC behaviour repeat itself and so on. In short: the illusion starts to crack.

Thing is with AC this processes doesn't take hours anymore it takes minutes (just watching a short gameplay clip is enough). It's because the structure is so familiar that my brain has allready decoded it. When I watch gameplay I recognize the different objective types (follow, assassinate, tackle etc), the towers structure, the sprinkled collectibles, the idiotic AI, the mundane filler content. There can be no immersion with this setup anymore sadly.

cawatrooper9
10-28-2015, 02:07 PM
I found them annoying too!
But the thing is if you go to a city like Miami in the united states, you can experience these things in real life,
They are annoying there too.
That is life!
The game is missing life.

So are taxes. Let's have a minigame in the next game where you get to fill out W2s and whatever else for a few hours!

darksavior1977
10-28-2015, 03:45 PM
I have had several moments playing today where I felt like AC is just taking anything in the way of a gameplay/mission idea and throwing them all in to see what sticks. Couple of things; First I don't want to waste time on Assassin's doing mundane ****, like fetching a newspaper for Charles Darwin FFS! If it isn't EPIC assassin stuff, don't waste time with it. How long before the next assassin will have a mission to tie someone's shoe or some crap like that? Also, missions with goals that are "no kill" is incredibly stupid for an assassin game. How about make a mission goal of "kill everyone" that at least compliments the thematic and skillset of the game and can be just as challenging when its more than what is necessary for the mission? I have had my fill of missions that say,"Kill no more than, or no police etc" which is stupid, in previous AC the characters killed how many guards/soldiers whatever? So why start caring when its cops? Too much 2015 politics creeping in is my suspicion. Also not a big fan of the kidnap missions, too much like an escort quest, and not really that fun, would rather each of those had been assassinations, and if not, then why have assassin's do it?

That last line in a nutshell may summarize my issue, we are playing assassins, but in ever increasing degrees Ubisoft is making the game deviate from that line of work. Instead the assassins are becoming odd job action heroes who will do anything from street racing to bank heists, which gives the game a disjointed feel of trying to be every open world game in the history of open world games. I would greatly prefer if Assassin's Creed could rediscover its own identity rather than trying to be a great big mix of GTA/Red Dead Redemption/etc.

ON his point about Blackflag, while it was a sandbox, the games story and protagonist never got buried and never felt lost. Ed Kenway was a pirate first and foremost and grew into the assassin, and I felt that the whole way through. Also, the tasks and ship combat were well done and the sword play and gadgets Kenway could use were also really well done. Blackflag was just a better AC than what came before, and despite being a sandbox it didn't ever lose its direction. The same can't even be said for all of Ezio's games, or AC3, or Unity. Syndicate does better, but still has room to improve, and since the death of Desmond Miles, whatever the present day storyline is trying to do needs serious help.

STDlyMcStudpants
10-28-2015, 09:18 PM
So are taxes. Let's have a minigame in the next game where you get to fill out W2s and whatever else for a few hours!

how does this add life to a world?
Youre backing yourself into a corner now lol

cawatrooper9
10-28-2015, 09:33 PM
how does this add life to a world?
Youre backing yourself into a corner now lol

Hardly. What I'm saying is that you're using loose definitions to try to persuade me of your goals. You can speak of "life", but all you see is the cartooney Carnevale in Venice. True "life" comes with tedious and ugly tasks. I don't want that in a game. Games, even the ones that aim for realism, should make escapism their top priority unless they aim to be a simulator like XPlanes (which then begs the question of whether or not it's even a "game" at all).

So no, you can claim I'm "backing myself into a closet" all you want, but that claim alone is no substitute for an argument on your part.

HDinHB
10-29-2015, 01:35 AM
So are taxes. Let's have a minigame in the next game where you get to fill out W2s and whatever else for a few hours!

I have that game. It's an annual release called TurboTax. Horrible game but I play it every year. :(

STDlyMcStudpants
10-29-2015, 02:09 AM
Hardly. What I'm saying is that you're using loose definitions to try to persuade me of your goals. You can speak of "life", but all you see is the cartooney Carnevale in Venice. True "life" comes with tedious and ugly tasks. I don't want that in a game. Games, even the ones that aim for realism, should make escapism their top priority unless they aim to be a simulator like XPlanes (which then begs the question of whether or not it's even a "game" at all).

So no, you can claim I'm "backing myself into a closet" all you want, but that claim alone is no substitute for an argument on your part.

How does
- we need beggars and thieves
- but theyre annoying
-Theyre annoying in real life too
Go to - taxes are annoying too so lets do taxes
?
You're arguing just for the sake of arguing.. you're talking but saying nothing....
Nobody wants them in game BECAUSE THEY ARE ANNOYING they want them in game because they bring life to the game...
youre confusing life with realism.. youre taking the word out of context..
The context it was used in was in parallel with the word soul.
There is no tedium in npcs doing more than standing around to fill in space
Try again.
Take your time, please.. it's becoming frustrating to watch you swing with no direction...... :)