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LoyalACFan
10-24-2015, 06:01 PM
Alright, so, I think I'm generally a nice person and I'm loathe to open a can of worms like this online, but after Unity's fiasco with the whole "animating women" controversy, it seems like Ubisoft took kind of a strange approach with their depiction of female characters in Syndicate. I mean, yes, we have Evie, and she's great (IMO she should have been the sole protagonist, Jacob is a friggin dolt) but it strikes me as odd that they still only gave her about half as many story missions as Jacob (and even said as much before release).

On the flip side, they added a ton of female enemies, which is... another strange one, honestly. It feels like they, in an attempt to show how equal they believe women should be, just stuck a bunch of female NPC's (correction- two female NPCs cloned over and over, since there are only like five enemy character models) in Blighter uniforms as if to say "hey look, equality!" So rather than using Evie as their beacon, they've got her still playing second fiddle to Brash Assassin Hero Man while female enemies are abundant all over London and two thirds of the city's generic gang leaders are women (which is pushing the boundaries of realism to the breaking point honestly, this is supposed to be 1860s London and you've got women leading over half of the city's organized crime. Come on now).

I mean personally, I didn't think the controversy over Unity's lack of female co-op characters was justified (everyone plays as Arno on their screen, so rigging a female avatar just to show up on your partner's screen is a lot of work for very little tangible gain) but it's to see Ubisoft keep stumbling all over themselves when it comes to gender. It just comes across as lip service to buy themselves a ticket on the PC train, rather than a genuine attempt to promote female characters in gaming. And is it stupid that there are so many women in leadership positions in 19th-century street gangs, or am I just a horrible sexist bastard?

HDinHB
10-24-2015, 06:06 PM
Yeah, they even made the Queen a woman! Talk about pandering!

Friggin' dolts are people too.

LoyalACFan
10-24-2015, 06:11 PM
are you affriliated with gamergate

do you get insecure when you see women in positions of power

or are you a misandrist who only wants positive 100% portrayals of women and are made when theyre made out to be villainous

Hey, I can take a lot of guff, but don't go calling me a gamergater :rolleyes:

Farlander1991
10-24-2015, 06:15 PM
I think this is more of a post-controversy reaction that wouldn't have appeared if there was no controversy in the first place. If you'd go into the game with last year's scandal not taking place, would you really think about this kind of stuff? Now, of course this is a hypothetical question that's impossible to answer for certain, but I don't think so. You'd probably find it more nice and progressive rather than PC pandering as a response to a scandal.

LoyalACFan
10-24-2015, 06:29 PM
I think this is more of a post-controversy reaction that wouldn't have appeared if there was no controversy in the first place. If you'd go into the game with last year's scandal not taking place, would you really think about this kind of stuff? Now, of course this is a hypothetical question that's impossible to answer for certain, but I don't think so. You'd probably find it more nice and progressive rather than PC pandering as a response to a scandal.

I really doubt it. Having Evie as the lead would have been actually progressive. Having a bunch of random female gangsters controlling the city is just... historically inaccurate and hard to believe. That's why it feels (to me) like they just slapped a few women character models in there as a response to last year's outcry. They didn't really do anything all that progressive.

Let me put it this way, having Evie as the star would be believable because the Assassins have always been portrayed as a gender-inclusive group (at least since AC2, I don't remember any Assassin women in Masyaf). Having women as the primary leaders of bloodthirsty 19th-century gangs is NOT believable because street thugs aren't exactly famed for their forward thinking. Both of those things could be perceived as an attempt to show female characters in empowered roles. One of them requires far less actual work and risk than the other. Guess which route Ubisoft took.

Like I said, it feels like lip service that came about as a direct response to the heat they got last year. I really don't think they would have made the "creative decision" to have women leading the Blighters had there been no controversy, because it's dumb.

darksavior1977
10-24-2015, 07:15 PM
I haven't finished the game, and I might agree, except that so far Evie Frye is friggin' AWESOME! So I am not seeing the second fiddle thing. Also this post feels like picking the nit just to pick it. At least Ubisoft is putting in a female lead at all. So I am not going to stomp on their toes when they are taking steps in the right direction. My two cents.

D.I.D.
10-24-2015, 07:19 PM
Female gangsters - yes. Senior female gangsters - yes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Elephants)(More detail (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/dec/27/girl-gang-london-underworld).)Representation of gangs in general - no, but it's a game. In life, most gangsters are just trying to make money and not get caught, and only a small proportion are really dangerous in a fight, but in a game we need everyone to be a hard bastard who won't stay down for less than ten stab wounds (or at least, for a gang to be a decent challenge). Given how completely screwy any battling game is in relation to violence it's not really worth worrying about gender balance, but the female gangsters of the age were prosecuted for vicious assaults (https://waywardwomen.wordpress.com/). This wasn't a new thing but a continuation of a criminal culture which probably has no beginning - i.e. this 18th century account of women banded together to commit coordinated violent robberies (https://waywardwomen.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/no-honour-among-thieves/):


In February 1788 Martha Cutler, Sarah Cowden, and Sarah Storer were brought up in the Old Bailey on a charge of highway robbery. This crime was a most serious offence, not only for its distressing and violent nature, but also on account of its fearsome reputation.

Their victim, Henry Solomons, maintained that he had being going about his business in Whitechapel , in June that year, when he was accosted by three or four women at the end of an ally. Solomons testified that the women made use of obscene gestures and ‘very bad expressions’ and pushed him into a passage that led into a house. As Solomons was ushered into a small room and thrown down onto a bed, where with two women restraining him, a third took over fourteen guineas from his person. When the ordeal was over, he was let up and told to go about his business. Solomons and a number of other witnesses, including a policeman, were able to identify the three women on trial.




While the violence is overplayed within the gangs, it's maybe underplayed among the general population (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3655359/Crime-murder-and-mayhem-in-Victorian-London.html):


"One startling image from my family's memories of life in the slums… was of women fighting in the street," writes O'Neill. "The phrase that at first puzzled me when I was told about it was one woman taunting another with a roar of,'Come on, get your blouse off !' It had to be explained to me that the women having the fight might well possess just the one blouse and they would rather strip down and bare their bosoms to their neighbours rather than risk spoiling their garments."

... but again, it has to be so that you see the enemies as distinct from the populace.

I really wish they'd gone later with the setting of Syndicate. Things get much juicier in terms of street crime a little later, when the lack of weapons regulation became a dramatic problem for policing.

LoyalACFan
10-24-2015, 08:22 PM
I haven't finished the game, and I might agree, except that so far Evie Frye is friggin' AWESOME! So I am not seeing the second fiddle thing. Also this post feels like picking the nit just to pick it. At least Ubisoft is putting in a female lead at all. So I am not going to stomp on their toes when they are taking steps in the right direction. My two cents.

She only has half the number of story missions that Jacob does (of course the amount of time spent playing as each character is variable depending on how much you use each of them for side content). But I'm not trying to step on Ubi's toes at all, I'm actually trying to prod them MORE in the direction they were headed when they made Evie a playable character. I just don't want to see them go "hey we're PC, remember that game we made with all those women in it?" and then go back to making games with weirdly sexist undertones. I just thought putting in a bunch of female gangster NPC's was a strange route to take, and one that felt a little disingenuous.


Female gangsters - yes. Senior female gangsters - yes. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forty_Elephants)(More detail (http://www.theguardian.com/books/2010/dec/27/girl-gang-london-underworld).)Representation of gangs in general - no, but it's a game. In life, most gangsters are just trying to make money and not get caught, and only a small proportion are really dangerous in a fight, but in a game we need everyone to be a hard bastard who won't stay down for less than ten stab wounds (or at least, for a gang to be a decent challenge). Given how completely screwy any battling game is in relation to violence it's not really worth worrying about gender balance, but the female gangsters of the age were prosecuted for vicious assaults (https://waywardwomen.wordpress.com/). This wasn't a new thing but a continuation of a criminal culture which probably has no beginning - i.e. this 18th century account of women banded together to commit coordinated violent robberies (https://waywardwomen.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/no-honour-among-thieves/):




While the violence is overplayed within the gangs, it's maybe underplayed among the general population (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/3655359/Crime-murder-and-mayhem-in-Victorian-London.html):



... but again, it has to be so that you see the enemies as distinct from the populace.

I really wish they'd gone later with the setting of Syndicate. Things get much juicier in terms of street crime a little later, when the lack of weapons regulation became a dramatic problem for policing.

Well yeah, women have been committing violent crimes since the dawn of time. That's not really my point. I actually read up a bit on the Forty Elephants before I made this post (just to make sure I wasn't talking completely out of my ***) and they sound more like AC2's Thieves' Guild than an actual "gang" fighting in the streets. More con artists than mobsters. But the real distinction to be made is that it was an ALL female syndicate. I'm not saying a woman would be incapable of criminal leadership, I'm just saying that it feels really inauthentic that over half the city's male street thugs follow female leaders. That's not how gender dynamics worked in 19th-century Europe (and that's still largely true today). It's like they're saying sexism just wasn't a thing in 1868, which is kind of uncomfortable; it feels revisionist. Granted, I'm only halfway through the game so maybe I'm missing a little context, but I'm kind of hung up on why they decided to do it this way.

IDK maybe I'm totally wrong about the dynamics of organized crime. Or maybe I really am a chauvinist bastard :nonchalance:

I-Like-Pie45
10-24-2015, 08:35 PM
its inherent to your kind

EmptyCrustacean
10-24-2015, 08:36 PM
I really doubt it. Having Evie as the lead would have been actually progressive. Having a bunch of random female gangsters controlling the city is just... historically inaccurate and hard to believe. That's why it feels (to me) like they just slapped a few women character models in there as a response to last year's outcry. They didn't really do anything all that progressive.

Let me put it this way, having Evie as the star would be believable because the Assassins have always been portrayed as a gender-inclusive group (at least since AC2, I don't remember any Assassin women in Masyaf). Having women as the primary leaders of bloodthirsty 19th-century gangs is NOT believable because street thugs aren't exactly famed for their forward thinking. Both of those things could be perceived as an attempt to show female characters in empowered roles. One of them requires far less actual work and risk than the other. Guess which route Ubisoft took.

Like I said, it feels like lip service that came about as a direct response to the heat they got last year. I really don't think they would have made the "creative decision" to have women leading the Blighters had there been no controversy, because it's dumb.

You're not sexist because you think women back then couldn't have been gang leaders - they wouldn't have. That's logical.

You're sexist because you don't apply the same realistic standards to anything else in the game. This is Assassin's Creed - we're talking pieces of Eden, pre-human aliens, a grappling hook, an electricity bomb... does it really upset you that there are female gang leaders? Really? Of all the things. Ubisoft don't have to pander to anybody. They only take into consideration what they feel is going to generate more sales - more women in strong roles = more female fans. Syndicate is generally very light hearted as well so realism is even less relevant here.


The whole realism argument always feels like a cop-out for someone just not coming out and admitting they're personally not comfortable with this change because they're not used to it.

Farlander1991
10-24-2015, 08:44 PM
That's not how gender dynamics worked in 19th-century Europe (and that's still largely true today). It's like they're saying sexism just wasn't a thing in 1868, which is kind of uncomfortable; it feels revisionist. Granted, I'm only halfway through the game so maybe I'm missing a little context, but I'm kind of hung up on why they decided to do it this way.

Well, it's not any street gang, it's a Templar-controlled street gang, which would have a different dynamic on its own, but also when you'll get to actually seeing and knowing their leader you will see that it makes sense, I think.

LoyalACFan
10-24-2015, 08:53 PM
You're not sexist because you think women back then couldn't have been gang leaders - they wouldn't have. That's logical.

You're sexist because you don't apply the same realistic standards to anything else in the game. This is Assassin's Creed - we're talking pieces of Eden, pre-human aliens, a grappling hook, an electricity bomb... does it really upset you that there are female gang leaders? Really? Of all the things. Ubisoft don't have to pander to anybody. They only take into consideration what they feel is going to generate more sales - more women in strong roles = more female fans. Syndicate is generally very light hearted as well so realism is even less relevant here.


The whole realism argument always feels like a cop-out for someone just not coming out and admitting they're personally not comfortable with this change because they're not used to it.

I don't think I've ever had a conversation on here with you directly, but if you knew me you'd remember how much I've whined about, as you say, "pieces of Eden, pre-human aliens, a grappling hook, an electricity bomb..." Hell, I've complained about at least two or three of them in the last 24 hours :p Though admittedly, I haven't unlocked the electricity bomb yet so who knows, it could be a wonderful mechanic... /sarcasm

I just made a thread about this particular topic because it seems to me like it was something that arose out of a dumb controversy last year, and in my view it came across as a really ham-fisted way of addressing it, especially because they had a PERFECT opportunity to squash the controversy completely with Evie. Personally, I want to see AC move in a more realistic and serious direction, a la AC1... I mean these games are about political assassination, they should be somewhat serious in tone (which is probably why Syndicate's peculiar mix of goofball anachronisms and extremely brutal violence isn't really jiving with me). So yeah, if I was the God-King of AC, Evie would have been the sole protagonist of Syndicate, and female gangsters, the rope launcher, the Shroud, the electrical bombs, and playable Jacob Frye would have hit the cutting floor.


Well, it's not any street gang, it's a Templar-controlled street gang, which would have a different dynamic on its own, but also when you'll get to actually seeing and knowing their leader you will see that it makes sense, I think.

I guess I'll wait and see, then, but I was under the impression that it was just kind of a gang that existed already, and then Big Bad Guy swooped in and basically said "do my bidding."

Which is essentially what Jacob did to the Clinkers, just sayin'.

steveeire
10-24-2015, 09:25 PM
This thread reminds me of why I sometimes hate the internet.

DynaRider
10-24-2015, 09:47 PM
Does anybody really care? Why try to read some sort of political correctness or anything else into the game? It's a video game, it's not real and the developers can make the men, women, birds or whatever do anything they want. I'm always amused at the controversy and threads that have people all in a dither over hoods as if these were some sort of real people populating the game. I just plug a game in and play it however the developers designed it. I'm more concerned with the mechanical and visual aspects of a game than whether the main character is male, female or a tranny.

LoyalACFan
10-24-2015, 09:56 PM
This thread reminds me of why I sometimes hate the internet.

Elaborate?


Does anybody really care? Why try to read some sort of political correctness or anything else into the game? It's a video game, it's not real and the developers can make the men, women, birds or whatever do anything they want. I'm always amused at the controversy and threads that have people all in a dither over hoods as if these were some sort of real people populating the game. I just plug a game in and play it however the developers designed it. I'm more concerned with the mechanical and visual aspects of a game than whether the main character is male, female or a tranny.

I'm not trying to make the game more PC, I'm just trying to figure out why Ubi made a strange creative decision that seems at odds with their goal of recreating 1860s London. But I guess I should never have brought up gender on a video game forum.

Farlander1991
10-24-2015, 10:15 PM
especially because they had a PERFECT opportunity to squash the controversy completely with Evie.

Here's the thing: they didn't, as when the game got into development there was no controversy to squash. And, while we're at it, Evie having a smaller portion of main missions wouldn't have anything to do with the controversy either, as what they did with her is not something you can really do in a year (what I mean is, playable Evie is not a reaction to controversy).

SofaJockey
10-24-2015, 10:26 PM
I am so enjoying playing Evie.
(23% completion, during 4th sequence).

I haven't noticed Jacob having more missions, but I'm using Evie exclusively for borough control.

And actually, when i entered Fight Club for the first time, I expected the game to default to Jacob, but no,
the fun of watching Evie dismantle hordes or beefsteak is just awesome.

Victorian ladies didn't do this for real?
They didn't zip-line around assassinating people either.
But none of that matters.

EmptyCrustacean
10-24-2015, 10:38 PM
I don't think I've ever had a conversation on here with you directly, but if you knew me you'd remember how much I've whined about, as you say, "pieces of Eden, pre-human aliens, a grappling hook, an electricity bomb..." Hell, I've complained about at least two or three of them in the last 24 hours :p Though admittedly, I haven't unlocked the electricity bomb yet so who knows, it could be a wonderful mechanic... /sarcasm

I just made a thread about this particular topic because it seems to me like it was something that arose out of a dumb controversy last year, and in my view it came across as a really ham-fisted way of addressing it, especially because they had a PERFECT opportunity to squash the controversy completely with Evie. Personally, I want to see AC move in a more realistic and serious direction, a la AC1... I mean these games are about political assassination, they should be somewhat serious in tone (which is probably why Syndicate's peculiar mix of goofball anachronisms and extremely brutal violence isn't really jiving with me). So yeah, if I was the God-King of AC, Evie would have been the sole protagonist of Syndicate, and female gangsters, the rope launcher, the Shroud, the electrical bombs, and playable Jacob Frye would have hit the cutting floor.



I guess I'll wait and see, then, but I was under the impression that it was just kind of a gang that existed already, and then Big Bad Guy swooped in and basically said "do my bidding."

Which is essentially what Jacob did to the Clinkers, just sayin'.

Yes, but like I said - Ubisoft's main concern was not to "squash the controversy" because, as you said, they would have just made a game with a female protagonist. Problem solved. But Ubi reckon that half the masses will not buy a game where the female is the lead so they made a compromise.

The decision to create Evie was to appeal to the loyalists. And it's not just her gender that feels like Ubisoft are trying to appeal hardcore fans, it's the fact that she's stealthy, more Brotherhood orientated and obsessed with the lore. She represents everything the type of fan that posts on this forum frequently would love. She feels fresh yet like a return to roots. Jacob - as much as I love him - represents, well, everyone else. The decision to include Evie was to increase sales and ensure the loyalty of the hardcore audience. Nothing more. Ubisoft only puts in what they think will sell. Similarly they lose what they think doesn't (MD)

D.I.D.
10-24-2015, 10:46 PM
I'm not saying a woman would be incapable of criminal leadership, I'm just saying that it feels really inauthentic that over half the city's male street thugs follow female leaders. That's not how gender dynamics worked in 19th-century Europe (and that's still largely true today). It's like they're saying sexism just wasn't a thing in 1868, which is kind of uncomfortable; it feels revisionist. Granted, I'm only halfway through the game so maybe I'm missing a little context, but I'm kind of hung up on why they decided to do it this way.

IDK maybe I'm totally wrong about the dynamics of organized crime. Or maybe I really am a chauvinist bastard :nonchalance:

Gender dynamics are often different among the working class (the vast majority of people) than they are among the wealthy (a minority), but we tend to define history by the attitudes of the minority. Men have followed female leaders of crime gangs and armies: military leaders such as Aethelflaed, Sayyida al Hurra; Ching Shih commanded 1,500 pirate ships.

Britain's organised crime came from the smuggling organisations who formed national networks to distribute their spoils, from Cornwall to Kent through to London. Women were very much a part of that, and just like today women did a lot of the transportation because they were less likely to be suspected. Anne Bonney and Mary Read began as part of that domestic smuggling organisation before taking to the seas to operate the international side of it. So that's what they're reflecting: generational crime families. They add on the Templar thing, and at that point they can disrupt the gender balance and gender roles as much as they like. The Templars are obviously fictional, and only need to reflect the times to be sufficiently authentic. They don't need to follow the same proportion of power positions.

strigoi1958
10-25-2015, 12:38 AM
As DynaRider said it's not really important who (or what) we play as in a game human, android animal or vegetable... and TBH I really enjoy a female protagonist in games.... not the MGSV stereotype ...
As D.I.D. has rightly pointed out... it is representative and coming from Kent myself the local history was probably more prominent to me and so I can understand if others were not as aware and it may seem unusual.

It's a great time for the story and it does allow it room for a time even further in the future without getting too close to MD.

Sushiglutton
10-25-2015, 01:11 AM
Meh I prefer to think about it as if Ubisoft are doing their best in this regards. I mean these issues are just a minefield and whatever you do will piss people off.

OT: Was Hilden B. Lade banned because of this thread :confused:. Is the forum going back to being just about AC again. Not sure if I can stand that.

D.I.D.
10-25-2015, 01:14 AM
coming from Kent myself the local history was probably more prominent to me and so I can understand if others were not as aware and it may seem unusual.

You'll be aware of the Hawkhurst Gang, I expect? One of my best friends comes from there. It's changed a bit :D

strigoi1958
10-25-2015, 03:18 AM
You'll be aware of the Hawkhurst Gang, I expect? One of my best friends comes from there. It's changed a bit :D

Wow I haven't heard that name in a long time... Yes I think they were the first organised criminals... lots of history in and around Hawkhurst, Goudhurst and on the coast starting at Hastings and spreading east to Pegwell bay (close to my roots) all the way west to Poole and probably further... they dominated towns and stored barrels of rum in village ponds.

VestigialLlama4
10-25-2015, 07:55 AM
Alright, so, I think I'm generally a nice person and I'm loathe to open a can of worms like this online, but after Unity's fiasco with the whole "animating women" controversy, it seems like Ubisoft took kind of a strange approach with their depiction of female characters in Syndicate. I mean, yes, we have Evie, and she's great (IMO she should have been the sole protagonist, Jacob is a friggin dolt) but it strikes me as odd that they still only gave her about half as many story missions as Jacob (and even said as much before release).

On the flip side, they added a ton of female enemies, which is... another strange one, honestly. It feels like they, in an attempt to show how equal they believe women should be, just stuck a bunch of female NPC's (correction- two female NPCs cloned over and over, since there are only like five enemy character models) in Blighter uniforms as if to say "hey look, equality!" So rather than using Evie as their beacon, they've got her still playing second fiddle to Brash Assassin Hero Man while female enemies are abundant all over London and two thirds of the city's generic gang leaders are women (which is pushing the boundaries of realism to the breaking point honestly, this is supposed to be 1860s London and you've got women leading over half of the city's organized crime. Come on now).

I mean personally, I didn't think the controversy over Unity's lack of female co-op characters was justified (everyone plays as Arno on their screen, so rigging a female avatar just to show up on your partner's screen is a lot of work for very little tangible gain) but it's to see Ubisoft keep stumbling all over themselves when it comes to gender. It just comes across as lip service to buy themselves a ticket on the PC train, rather than a genuine attempt to promote female characters in gaming. And is it stupid that there are so many women in leadership positions in 19th-century street gangs, or am I just a horrible sexist bastard?

Well, it was good enough for Feminist Frequency:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OzKTAYkyTE


I do think Syndicate should have had equal assassination missions for Jacob and Evie and I kind of hope Ubisoft build on this because double protagonists is cool. My one problem though is Ubisoft resorting to a lot of shilling to pat themselves on the back. Like the special armor is for Evie only, they have a back-up plan in the second simulation and the plot and story kind of make her the more central of the two, she also gets the all-important Assassin V Templar ideological showdown with the main villain while Jacob does not. I am not going all MRA here, but the point is there has to be a reason why we are playing as Jacob Frye. As with Elise, it simply reinforces that Evie should have been the main and only character. If you are having a male protagonist, he should be actively involved. If the plot and story and big moments are for the girl, then she should be the hero. In UNITY, the story and plot was entirely around Elise, and playing as Arno was frustrating becuase you could sense the cowardice on the part of storytellers.

SofaJockey
10-25-2015, 12:07 PM
Jacob started complaining on the train that he felt 'cooped up'.
Perhaps I had been ignoring him for too long.

RzaRecta357
10-25-2015, 03:43 PM
Didn't read through the whole thread.

Pretty sure this was Jacobs game and he would of became more like Evie. Then Unity happened and that E3 about women and Ubi.

We get a poll asking about women assassins.

They adjust the game to add Evie. Game is better for it. Still had to add her in when they could perhaps and this is the 25% to 75% reason.

EmptyCrustacean
10-25-2015, 03:52 PM
Didn't read through the whole thread.

Pretty sure this was Jacobs game and he would of became more like Evie. Then Unity happened and that E3 about women and Ubi.

We get a poll asking about women assassins.

They adjust the game to add Evie. Game is better for it. Still had to add her in when they could perhaps and this is the 25% to 75% reason.

I'm really sorry but I didn't understand a word of that!

Aphex_Tim
10-26-2015, 11:23 AM
I'm really sorry but I didn't understand a word of that!

Feels like Evie has been added to Syndicate last minute after Unity was considered not PC enough. It would explain why she apparently only has about 30% of the story missions.
Now I haven't played the game myself yet so I can't judge on that but I gotta admit, it does kinda feel like that's the case...


I should never have brought up gender on a video game forum.

Hit the nail on the head there, buddy. You can try to be as reasonable as possible; eventually it's just gonna end up another sh*t-fest.

ProdiGurl
10-26-2015, 12:23 PM
I haven't finished the game, and I might agree, except that so far Evie Frye is friggin' AWESOME! So I am not seeing the second fiddle thing. Also this post feels like picking the nit just to pick it. At least Ubisoft is putting in a female lead at all. So I am not going to stomp on their toes when they are taking steps in the right direction. My two cents.
I'd be willing to give the benefit that it was less nit picking and more just making a new topic? I hope.
No matter what decisions devs make, there's always plenty of people to tear it apart with complaints. Some are valid but imo, alot just aren't. This isn't [to me].
I can't agree more that Evie is absolutely AWESOME. Coming from me, that's an accomplishment bcuz female protags. aren't my preference. Evie's character alone should silence any PC fems because they balanced her out perfectly imo.

People whine & B!+&# for females, well, here. take some. I'd expect that they'll get in even more trouble for making the females darker characters instead of virtuous heroins? I don't know - but I do know I'm fed up with PCism.


Feels like Evie has been added to Syndicate last minute after Unity was considered not PC enough. It would explain why she apparently only has about 30% of the story missions.
Now I haven't played the game myself yet so I can't judge on that but I gotta admit, it does kinda feel like that's the case....
Really? How does giving her less missions/story time automatically equate to a "last minute" consideration? Why leap to that conclusion?
I remember extensive debates here that included polls requesting female protags. It's nothing new, it's only been amped up as things usually do in our culture these days where PCism is concerned.
AC has had very good characters that weren't given alot of game time, I especially remember that with Yusuf Tazim in ACRevelations.
They may have wanted to slowly wade into the water on adding a female lead so that if she wasn't done or received well, it wouldn't take up the majority of the game for all we know.?

They did her perfectly, so BE HAPPY instead of seeking negative ulterior motives to slap onto the devs - unless they come right out & announce that's the case, I see no fair reason to go there when her character was so well thought out & polished (which is anything but a sign that she was a last minute decision)..

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 12:29 PM
Feels like Evie has been added to Syndicate last minute after Unity was considered not PC enough. It would explain why she apparently only has about 30% of the story missions.
Now I haven't played the game myself yet so I can't judge on that but I gotta admit, it does kinda feel like that's the case...

Even if that was the case, is that really such a bad thing? Yes, you can say that Evie while always a part of Syndicate was kind of built up from the role she was originally intended after the controversy of Unity's marketing, the whole "Women are too hard to animate" thing, and likewise that controversy perhaps led to Elise being more prominent in the advertising than originally intended or actually merited. I just don't think that is any bad thing at all. After all, men and dudes are pandered to all the time with these endless male power fantasies that comprises 99% of all games.

In Syndicate, it is true that Evie gets a bit of shilling in that the special armor is for her and her only, and that all the characters say how cool and awesome she is which kind of hides the fact that she only assassinates 2 out of 9 Templar targets all by herself. But even then, it made those missions extra special and interesting and this shilling imperfect as it is, is preferable to not featuring her at all.

Likewise, her grand-niece, Lydia gets the major side missions of World War I, essentially Tomb Levels dedicated for a second female protagonist


Hit the nail on the head there, buddy. You can try to be as reasonable as possible; eventually it's just gonna end up another sh*t-fest.

I actually think it's been a civilized conversation so far and I think people should discuss and have opinions about it.

Aphex_Tim
10-26-2015, 02:02 PM
I never said I considered it a bad thing. On the contrary. Having a female protagonist is a refreshing (and necessary) change of pace. I also said I haven't played the game yet so I can't judge so I'm not leaping to any conclusions. All I said was that it does feel a little suspicious, given that most AC games are in development simultaneously. Syndicate has probably already been in development since somewhere between Black Flag and Unity.
Then Unity's gender-sh*tstorm happened and Ubi gave us a lame excuse for not including a female character, saying that "animating a woman was too hard". If Evie was actually part of Syndicate from the start, that probably would never have happened as they would already be working on it. Syndicate's story being apparently more centered on Jacob also strengthens my suspicions.
Now please keep in mind this is all just speculation on my part. I'm not saying anything about how well or not Evie was actually implemented as I just don't know yet.



I actually think it's been a civilized conversation so far and I think people should discuss and have opinions about it.

So far, yes. Might've exaggerated a bit there. But still, for some reason with a topic like this it's always hard to keep it that way since tension seems to be rising all the time. I'm not necessarily talking about particularly this thread but basically every discussion anywhere on the internet regarding this topic. You always have to choose your wording very carefully as it will easily be taken out of context.

ProdiGurl
10-26-2015, 02:25 PM
Ok, I understand where you're coming from now. I've been out of the AC forums & loop for awhile so I don't know all the details/news/info/gossip. Sounds fair enough.
I think they did a fabulous job w/ Evie (as far as I've played) and they get my respect for that. But I still can't say I'd want a female as the sole protagonist for any game.
The twin idea was brilliant. Problem is, I'm liking Evie more than her brother lol

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 02:41 PM
I think this is more of a post-controversy reaction that wouldn't have appeared if there was no controversy in the first place.
I agree 100%.
It makes historical sense for female gangsters to have a place in this game, as D.I.D. points out. Heck, we also have a lot of female historical figures- Florence Nightengale, Queen Victoria, etc...

Also, consider Rogue- there were probably even a higher amount of female gangsters in that game, and that was in production pre-controversey.

While I'll admit, Loyal, that I had the same thought (so know that I'm absolutely not accusing you of sexism or anything) I think that there is far more to this than simply rectifying Unity's portrayals.

SofaJockey
10-26-2015, 03:59 PM
... The twin idea was brilliant. Problem is, I'm liking Evie more than her brother lol

This. Jacob's fine, but Evie could have held the game.

RzaRecta357
10-26-2015, 06:45 PM
Sorry about that last post I was speed typing and what not from the phone, haha. Anyway, yeah.. After E3 last year with Rainbow Six having a female hostage and then Unity not featuring female assassin's (People are stupid since they were doing the same thing they did in Watch Dogs; Having you be the protagonist always while online friends or foes looked like NPCS.)

So, almost immediately after Unity's release the surveys started dropping and hinting at female assassin's and time periods and stuff.

All of a sudden this years game has a female. Maybe I'm wrong but it feels like they could of had Jacob be Jacob.. Slowly becoming more like Evie as he wised up. Then they seen the outcry for female protagonists and decided to add her by splitting and adjusting the personality and character arc of Jacob.. All the better for it mind you. Evie is amazing and Jacob is great. They compliment each other perfect.

D.I.D.
10-26-2015, 06:56 PM
On the other hand, a main series female protagonist was well overdue. It's entirely likely that Evie was already developed for ACS at the time that the Unity controversy happened, and Ubi reps may well have been having to bite their tongues about what was coming down the pipe. Character development of protagonists costs a lot of time and money, so I'd be surprised if Evie was shoehorned into Syndicate in less than a year (much less than a year, in order to feature in promo from spring/summer).

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 07:13 PM
On the other hand, a main series female protagonist was well overdue. It's entirely likely that Evie was already developed for ACS at the time that the Unity controversy happened, and Ubi reps may well have been having to bite their tongues about what was coming down the pipe. Character development of protagonists costs a lot of time and money, so I'd be surprised if Evie was shoehorned into Syndicate in less than a year (much less than a year, in order to feature in promo from spring/summer).

Well Revelations came out in 11 months didn't it? Between Unity's controversy and marketing gaffe at E3 and Syndicate's announcement, it's a long time.

Bear in mind that in Syndicate, Evie mainly does what in earlier games are side activities, she only has two Assassinations and both are discrete levels in separate areas of the map and basically linear missions. She's not actively involved in the story until much later, so it's entirely possible that Ubisoft dialled up her presence in response to controversy. So it's not like it's an especially prominent addition anyway. Jacob does the lion's share of the Assassination missions, all 5 Black Box missions in the open world are entirely Jacob.

It can be simply that they had an idea for a playable female character but didn't know if people would respond to it and then the controversy gave them the license to go ahead and do so anyway and perhaps upgraded Evie from a Single Player DLC to main game.

The fact that Ubisoft in earlier interviews said before prompting that it wasn't because of controversy convinces me that the controversy played a part in upgrading Evie's presence.

D.I.D.
10-26-2015, 07:33 PM
Yeah, possible. It might just as easily be Ubisoft's conservatism regarding anyone who isn't a white man: Aveline cast off to the Vita, Adéwalé to DLC, and then Evie to a minor role until her popularity is 100% proven.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 07:44 PM
The fact that Ubisoft in earlier interviews said before prompting that it wasn't because of controversy convinces me that the controversy played a part in upgrading Evie's presence.

Haha, yeah, good point. It's possible I suppose.
But even if so, there's nothing wrong with that. If we're going to start point fingers at this, we'd be the first fans in history to criticize a game for listening to its fans...

Nevermind. Video game fans are a fickle bunch, I'm sure we'd not be the first. But you get my drift.

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 08:25 PM
Yeah, possible. It might just as easily be Ubisoft's conservatism regarding anyone who isn't a white man: Aveline cast off to the Vita, Adéwalé to DLC, and then Evie to a minor role until her popularity is 100% proven.

The advantage about annual games is the immediate feedback. Gaming changes so often that a game made over five years can come out and look pretty out of touch, like Kojima's Phantom Pain, made over four years I think, coming out recently with that Quiet woman faces a backlash now, that it would not have had ten years back.

Unity was caught in the middle of that backlash between the old and what might be the new. They basically used classic AC ideas, Romance with Templar from Altair, Arno is Frenchzio and then suddenly that "women are too hard to animate" thing came out and a few months after that, suddenly Elise shows up a lot in promotional materials, which set them up for a bigger fail when she gets fridged in Unity.


Haha, yeah, good point. It's possible I suppose.
But even if so, there's nothing wrong with that. If we're going to start point fingers at this, we'd be the first fans in history to criticize a game for listening to its fans...

I actually think AC is best when they allow the writers and developers to follow their instincts. It's the fan requests that create problems. Nobody asked for AC2, AC3, Black Flag in terms of setting and gameplay, they kept saying we're doing stories and settings we want to do not cliches that fans think are right. And then after that you get fanfiction like Rogue, Fanrequest settings like Unity and then Syndicate, and apparently Japan next year...

Rafe Harwood
10-26-2015, 08:38 PM
actually think AC is best when they allow the writers and developers to follow their instincts. It's the fan requests that create problems. Nobody asked for AC2, AC3, Black Flag in terms of setting and gameplay, they kept saying we're doing stories and settings we want to do not cliches that fans think are right. And then after that you get fanfiction like Rogue, Fanrequest settings like Unity and then Syndicate, and apparently Japan next year...

Well, I dunno bout that. We were all pretty impressed with the Aquilla and enjoyed that aspect which I'm sure had some baring on direction when it came to IV.

Outside of that post however, you don't rewrite history if using historical settings. Women were marginalised, that's fact. You don't fudge it just to soothe the butthurt feminists ;)

VestigialLlama4
10-26-2015, 08:48 PM
Women were marginalised, that's fact.

Women also existed in history, also a fact. There's far greater evidence for the existence of women in history then there is for the existence of Assasins and Templars or the Illuminati or God.

cawatrooper9
10-26-2015, 09:04 PM
Outside of that post however, you don't rewrite history if using historical settings. Women were marginalised, that's fact. You don't fudge it just to soothe the butthurt feminists ;)
I think Ubisoft's actually pretty good about that. As we've discussed earlier in this thread, women did have ranking roles in the gangs- plus, the criminal underbelly of London is a setting that can allow for some historical revisionism, as it wouldn't be as well documented as the royal bloodlines for instance.

That's why settings like ACIII's American Revolution couldn't have tons of female soldiers running around (because that obviously wasn't the case) but the Brotherhoods in Rome and Constantinople can have female Assassins (since they were already secretive anyway, there's no history to contradict it).

Also (and I think this is the case at least) the only Brotherhood to be comprised only of men is the Levantine one pre-Altair, which is also the only Brotherhood with a real-life historical basis.

VestigialLlama4
10-27-2015, 11:10 AM
That's why settings like ACIII's American Revolution couldn't have tons of female soldiers running around (because that obviously wasn't the case)

Actually that happened ''quite'' a lot (http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/femvets.html). There are very famous instances of women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson) dressing as men and serving during the Revolution and later in the Civil War. AC3 dialled down the female presence during the American Revolution much more than it really was. Likewise, in the case of Paul Revere's ride, the game shows the famous instance but it doesn't deal with Sybil Ludington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_Ludington) who actually did her mission without a hitch and covered a greater distance.

Unity should have had more women in the game than it does. This was the event that inspired Mary Wollstonecraft (who was in Paris in the early 1790s) to write "A Vindication of the Rights of Women". The fact that Unity treated Charlotte Corday (one of the five most famous assassins in history after Brutus, Oswald, Booth, Princep) like total crap in a cheesy side-mission shows how bad it was.

The truth is women were always prominent in history and were involved in war, in crime, in art and even in shaping famous incidents. As were homosexuals and bisexuals for that matter, and other minorities.

Rafe Harwood
10-27-2015, 12:09 PM
Women also existed in history, also a fact. There's far greater evidence for the existence of women in history then there is for the existence of Assasins and Templars or the Illuminati or God.

Are you kidding me? I think most people have a grip on the basic facts of biological reproduction :/

VestigialLlama4
10-27-2015, 12:18 PM
Are you kidding me? I think most people have a grip on the basic facts of biological reproduction :/

Well if you are going to talk about "rewriting history" to "soothe butthurt feminists", I think you need to be reminded of necessary and sufficient conditions of history.

You can't use history as any kind of excuse not to feature women in good roles in the story.

Rafe Harwood
10-27-2015, 12:32 PM
Well if you are going to talk about "rewriting history" to "soothe butthurt feminists", I think you need to be reminded of necessary and sufficient conditions of history.

You can't use history as any kind of excuse not to feature women in good roles in the story.

Rubbish. When women have pivotal roles then they have pivotal roles. When they are just 'there' the same as men are 'just there', then they don't need embelishment.

This is just more of the rampant anti-male sexism that exists in todays world in mind numbing over abundance.

The Spice Girls have an awful lot to answer for :/

cawatrooper9
10-27-2015, 02:48 PM
Actually that happened ''quite'' a lot (http://userpages.aug.com/captbarb/femvets.html). There are very famous instances of women (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deborah_Sampson) dressing as men and serving during the Revolution and later in the Civil War. AC3 dialled down the female presence during the American Revolution much more than it really was. Likewise, in the case of Paul Revere's ride, the game shows the famous instance but it doesn't deal with Sybil Ludington (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybil_Ludington) who actually did her mission without a hitch and covered a greater distance.

Unity should have had more women in the game than it does. This was the event that inspired Mary Wollstonecraft (who was in Paris in the early 1790s) to write "A Vindication of the Rights of Women". The fact that Unity treated Charlotte Corday (one of the five most famous assassins in history after Brutus, Oswald, Booth, Princep) like total crap in a cheesy side-mission shows how bad it was.

The truth is women were always prominent in history and were involved in war, in crime, in art and even in shaping famous incidents. As were homosexuals and bisexuals for that matter, and other minorities.

That's why I said "couldn't have tons". What I mean is that we could've had famous women like Anne Bailey that Connor could've met, but I don't think it would've worked to have an entire class of women guards in the continental or (especially) British armies, unlike how having female guard classes in Syndicate works.


Well if you are going to talk about "rewriting history" to "soothe butthurt feminists", I think you need to be reminded of necessary and sufficient conditions of history.

You can't use history as any kind of excuse not to feature women in good roles in the story.

Preach. I hope you know I'm not arguing that women shouldn't be in this game. Any character role should be carefully considered if a story is to be good, and especially so for a (pseudo)historical piece like Assassins Creed. So, while I'd love to see some badass women soldiers, I think the game should establish some context for that, even if it's just database entries explaining the validity of the issue.