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View Full Version : Any chance for more 20mm ammo for Spitfire?



Erbriac
03-07-2004, 11:45 AM
Perhaps as a loadout option? I know some types had 60 rounds per gun (as we have now) and some had 120 (what I would like). Thanks.

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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Erbriac
03-07-2004, 11:45 AM
Perhaps as a loadout option? I know some types had 60 rounds per gun (as we have now) and some had 120 (what I would like). Thanks.

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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VW-IceFire
03-07-2004, 12:03 PM
The IXe and IXc we're getting I think has the 120 rounds per gun. One of the problems with the earlier Spitfire Mark V's was definately the cannon ammo supply being really small.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Erbriac
03-07-2004, 12:16 PM
Yeah, but I think there were Vb's with 60 and Vb's with 120 rounds per gun. So adding a line into the loadout list box for more ammo would be certainly sweet. But if I am wrong, well...that happens.

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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jurinko
03-07-2004, 12:27 PM
mrchy, mate tej municie az-az http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

Fillmore
03-07-2004, 01:04 PM
I thought only the "C" wing had the extra ammo?

blabla0001
03-07-2004, 02:13 PM
The 1941 Vb we have in FB has 60 rounds per gun, all the other 3 Vb's in FB have 120 rounds per gun of 20mm ammo.

Erbriac
03-07-2004, 02:34 PM
Sorry Cap, but you are wrong. All the Spitfires we have in AEP have 5-6 seconds of continuous cannon fire, which corresponds to 60 rounds per gun. The Hispano's ROF is somewhere between 10-11 rounds/second.

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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Bull_dog_
03-07-2004, 02:45 PM
I was unaware that Mk V's had 60 RPG until now...I've always seen spits modelled with 120 RPG.

I remember Gibbage saying that Oleg wanted the lend lease spit varieties modelled so it would be interesting to see the loadouts. I was looking for some data on it but couldn't find it...

This I know...if Mk V's had 120 RPG varients then I would rather fly one of those or at least have the extra ammo option.

I'll be keeping my eyes on this post to see if anyone with more knowledge can clear up the debate for us and hopefully for Oleg

biggs222
03-07-2004, 03:54 PM
yeah the mkVb in AEP has 60 rpg, the mkVc had the later "universal wing" it had placements for 2 cannons per wing, and one cannon could now carry 120-125 rpg.

the universal wing carried over to the mkIX's, so we will be getting the mkIXc and e, which both had 120-125 rounds per gun. the 303s had 300 rpg and the 50cal had 250 rounds per gun.

Bull_dog_
03-07-2004, 05:07 PM
Biggs...or anyone that knows for that matter...

Did any of the Spitfire models that are in AEP have the 120 round configuration?

PE_Mosor
03-07-2004, 06:19 PM
Actually they have 120 rounds, but for both cannons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
All four Spitfires in AEP have same armament configurations, two 20 mm Hispanos with 60 rpg, four 7,7 mm Browning with total load of 1400 rounds (average 350, left inboard MG first runs out of ammo, then right outboard, left outboard and finally right inboard), and have no additional armament.

http://free-st.hinet.hr/dvd/

BerkshireHunt
03-08-2004, 06:47 AM
My references say it was only the Vc which had 120 rpg.
The Vb's cannons were drum fed- which accounts for the low ammo count per gun- a larger drum could not be accommodated within the wing (similar situation to German MGFF). The Vc was fitted with the C, or 'universal' wing (produced Oct 1941)- which had a revised internal structure to accommodate either 8x.303s, 4x20mm cannon or a combination of 4x.303s and 2x20mm cannon. (8x303s were never used).
This wing had originally been designed for the Spitfire III and allowed in- the- field alteration of armament.
To eliminate the ammunition drums a belt feed system was used running over rollers to feed each Hispano. This meant that, when fitted with only two cannon, the C wing carried double the 20mm ammunition load of the B wing. (In practice 4 Hispanos were rarely carried because of the weight penalty this imposed).
Alfred Price says all of the 143 Spitfire Vs sent to Russia were Vbs, however, another source says some Vcs were included.
On the other hand, 1188 Spifire IXs were sent to Russia, all of which had the C wing. The C wing could also carry two 250 lb bombs for fighter- bomber purposes.

Erbriac
03-08-2004, 07:19 AM
BerkshireHunt: Is there any visual difference between the Mk.Vb "B" wing and Mk.Vc "C" wing when using the same 2x20 + 4x0.303 weapon loadout? I mean if there is none, then by simply doubling the cannon ammo we can have the Mk.Vc as well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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Aaron_GT
03-08-2004, 08:13 AM
Some VCs to complement the VBs would be a nice
addition. I also had read that the C wing Hispano,
being belt fed, were less prone to jamming.

Saburo_0
03-08-2004, 08:41 AM
The Vc four gun variants only carried 20 rounds per gun according to a book i was reading last night. Talk about a short clip.

I'll be happy when I get the spit IX but am really enjoying the 41 Spit Vb in the Kuban campaign. The cannon are deadly so if you wait til ya can't miss there's plenty of ammo. Also even tho she's slow this Spit does pretty good in '43 considering she's a 41 model.
Sweet Plane!

Jaws2002
03-08-2004, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erbriac:
Perhaps as a loadout option? I know some types had 60 rounds per gun (as we have now) and some had 120 (what I would like). Thanks.

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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My FW-190 A4 has 500x MG151/20 and 120xMG/FF....I can give you some.
where do you want them (engine, cockpit, etc.)?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

Erbriac
03-08-2004, 12:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jaws2002:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erbriac:
Perhaps as a loadout option? I know some types had 60 rounds per gun (as we have now) and some had 120 (what I would like). Thanks.

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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My FW-190 A4 has 500x MG151/20 and 120xMG/FF....I can give you some.
where do you want them (engine, cockpit, etc.)?? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/icon_twisted.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hehe, I will exchange the ammunition for some excess climbing power. We Spit drivers have plenty of that as you know and last time I looked at the climbing FW-190 A4 I could not stop laughing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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RCAF_Hawk2
03-08-2004, 01:24 PM
Well the sixty rounds are enough to down 4 109 f4s so im happy . nice fly plane
good hunting

&lt;BR&gt;&lt;BR&gt;&lt;IMG SRC="http://www16.brinkster.com/hawkspage/hawkssig.jpg"&gt;&lt;BR&gt;Your not getting my buffalo wings &lt;BR&gt;&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/td&gt;

Jaws2002
03-08-2004, 01:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erbriac:

Hehe, I will exchange the ammunition for some excess climbing power. We Spit drivers have plenty of that as you know and last time I looked at the climbing FW-190 A4 I could not stop laughing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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312_Wraith
312. (Czechoslovak) Fighter Sq. RAF
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I still would not give my purdy little Wurger for that thing,... with fabric wings http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

blabla0001
03-08-2004, 01:43 PM
Hmmm, your right, 60 rounds per gun on all 4 Spits.

Oh well, now we can be extra happy when the MK IX arrive with twice the ammo.

BerkshireHunt
03-08-2004, 07:34 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erbriac:
BerkshireHunt: Is there any visual difference between the Mk.Vb "B" wing and Mk.Vc "C" wing when using the same 2x20 + 4x0.303 weapon loadout? I mean if there is none, then by simply doubling the cannon ammo we can have the Mk.Vc as well http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
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Yikes!- the dreaded Spitfire 'wing bulges' question.
Hmmm... well the answer is, yes- but 95% of the people who fly this sim wouldn't notice the difference. Allow me to explain:

The 60 round ammunition drums of the 'B' wing were larger in diameter than the thickness of the wing- in other words they protruded through the top surface of the wing and the lower surface by an equal amount. Over each protruding section was a streamlined blister fairing. Bear in mind that the cannons themselves were mounted in the bays closest to the wheel wells with the drum- feed blisters just outboard.
Now it gets complicated:
With the 'C' wing, as we discussed above, the drum- feeds were eliminated- but it so happened that the new belt- feed mechanisms had to be mounted on top of the cannons themselves.
This meant that if two cannon were to be mounted side by side in each wing (which the 'C' wing was designed to allow) a larger, broader blister fairing had to be devised for the wing top surface- which would, in effect, cover both of their belt- feed mechanisms.
Early Spitfire Vcs (and early IXs) are recognisable by the broad, flat blister fairings on their wing top surfaces. This is a prominent ID feature which shouldn't be omitted.
The underwing blister of the 'B' wing was, of course, not required on the 'C' wing because the new belt- feed mechanism did not protrude underneath each cannon. So 'C' wings were flat underneath.
It was soon realised, however, that most pilots did not like having 4 Hispanos fitted because of the performance penalty- therefore, fitting every 'C' wing with the broad blisters was unnecessary and undesirable (the broad blisters reduced speed by approx 5 mph). Consequently, it was decided to fit to the 'C' wing- as standard- a much smaller blister fairing which would only cover the belt feed mechanism of the innermost Hispano (nearest the wheel well); it being assumed that the other cannon bay would always be used to accommodate only ammunition boxes (which gives us the increased ammo load of 120 rpg).

What this means as far as the 3D models are concerned is this:

i) For an early Spitfire Vc the underwing blister fairings must be removed and the top blister made rather wider and longer (to cover two cannon)

i) For a later Spitfire Vc the underwing blister fairings must be removed and a narrow blister fairing created for the top of the wing- one bay further inboard compared to that of the Spitfire Vb (ie over the inboard cannons themselves rather than over a side- mounted drum feed).


Like I say, its subtle, and the vast majority of people wouldn't notice. Oleg, however, probably would... I haven't got AEP so I don't know if the wings are correctly modelled for a Vb in any case.

Now with the 'E' wing fitted to later IXs and XVIs things are different again- but I think we'd better leave it there for the moment.