PDA

View Full Version : Saving private ryan



VMF114_Spyder
07-17-2004, 06:41 PM
I noticed at the end of the film there were P51s that flew CAS. I was wondering what squadron actually flew CAS over normandy. I don't know if that squadron was a real squadron, but I would just like to know.

VMF114_Spyder
07-17-2004, 06:41 PM
I noticed at the end of the film there were P51s that flew CAS. I was wondering what squadron actually flew CAS over normandy. I don't know if that squadron was a real squadron, but I would just like to know.

Bob the Pilot
07-17-2004, 07:20 PM
what i know is that saving private ryan is horribly inaccurate... the real omaha beach wasn't overrun before it got dark, and it took 3 waves. the town 'ramelle' in which the final battle took place doesn't even exist. if the mustangs in the movie were to drop 500 lb or 1000 lb bombs they would blow up the bridge as well as make a lot of the buildings nearby collapse... 'ol tom hanks would probably not be much left of. :P so the point is dont trust that movie for historical accuracy.

h009291
07-17-2004, 07:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob the Pilot:
what i know is that saving private ryan is horribly inaccurate... the real omaha beach wasn't overrun before it got dark, and it took 3 waves. the town 'ramelle' in which the final battle took place doesn't even exist. if the mustangs in the movie were to drop 500 lb or 1000 lb bombs they would blow up the bridge as well as make a lot of the buildings nearby collapse... 'ol tom hanks would probably not be much left of. :P so the point is dont trust that movie for historical accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't we Mr.Historian http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Where in the film did it say that it was a true story or supposedly following historical (to exact detail) accounts?

http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg

ImpStarDuece
07-17-2004, 08:07 PM
I just find it strange and amusing that a movie with such a strong emphasis on getting the fine detail right (weapons, uniforms, decorations, tanks, 1940s combat tacitcs) got it so wrong on several of teh most important aspets of historical accuracy.

An "SPR" is semi based on real events. It sets aside the opening 20 min to show us the best depection on film of what it was like to be on 'Bloody Omaha' on the afternoon of June 6. Aw well as this the back story , of three brothers dying on the same day in seperate theaters, IS a historical fact. Its mentioned in several accounts of the Normandy battles. S Ambrose in "D-Day" mentions it as does Nelliands in "Battle For Normandy". I just dont know if i the story of a band of soliders rescuing a PIR solider is accurate though.

As to the original question of what P-51 were performing CAS i dont know. I would assume it was a 9th Air Force bird as most of their planes were assigned GA and supression duties for the first few days of the invasion.

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

"War is just an extension of politics carried out by other means" von Clauswitz.

horseback
07-17-2004, 08:14 PM
AFAIK, almost every fighter squadron in the 8th AF as well as the 9th AF was committed to support the invasion effort for the first two or three days. That included Mustang Groups, so in that respect, the movie was accurate. Nobody would ever have called them 'tankbusters' at the time, though, but I'm under the impression that Mr. Spielberg would have had some difficulty locating flyable Typhoons for his movie.

However, the 78th FG, whose markings the Mustangs in the movie's ending wore, did not transition to the Pony until much later in the year. Those markings were no doubt chosen for their photogenic qualities.

We anal-retentives who demand exact historical accuracy should remember though, that it's a work of fiction that a number of WWII, Korea, and Vietnam veterans that I have discussed it with said got the 'feel' of combat pretty right. They, at least, understand that movies are expensive to make, and you can't always squeeze every little historical detail into a venture that is supposed to make its investors some return.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Bob the Pilot
07-17-2004, 08:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by h009291:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob the Pilot:
what i know is that saving private ryan is horribly inaccurate... the real omaha beach wasn't overrun before it got dark, and it took 3 waves. the town 'ramelle' in which the final battle took place doesn't even exist. if the mustangs in the movie were to drop 500 lb or 1000 lb bombs they would blow up the bridge as well as make a lot of the buildings nearby collapse... 'ol tom hanks would probably not be much left of. :P so the point is dont trust that movie for historical accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't we Mr.Historian http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

Where in the film did it say that it was a true story or supposedly following historical (to exact detail) accounts?

http://www.medals.org.uk/united-kingdom/images/uk654.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

im from norway so it is hard for me write exactly what im thinking. i think SPR is a good movie, but its not very accurate

Farkitt_
07-17-2004, 10:16 PM
You have gotta remember, that they do have to hurry it up abit, they couldn't do a real 12 hour Beachhead scene now could they?

I agree, The P-51 Scene is one I dislike in the film, but overall, it is a very good warfilm, and you should look past minor details, and enjoy what they got right.

Flying Online as Ginger_Lacey
http://www.jacksonharrison.co.uk/BoB2/Battle_personnel/Profiles/RAF/images/lacey.jpg

Bearcat99
07-17-2004, 10:28 PM
I think the 357th 352nd 354th FG were all in the mix. Maybe the 353rd too.. but Ill have to check.


<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

VMF114_Spyder
07-17-2004, 11:53 PM
Thanks for giving me an idea of the squads who flew in normandy. BTW, I spoke with a D-day veteran and he said the opening scene, where the mg42s are firing at the troops, he said thats how it really was.

M.R.Maiornikov
07-17-2004, 11:54 PM
Too much medal of honour i see http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

------------------------------------------------------------
http://server6.uploadit.org/files/MRMaiornikov-sovietAF.jpg

The RED GUARD (777th Gv.I.A.P)-"For The Glory Of Our Motherland"
Lt.M.R.Maiornikov

3.JG51_BigBear
07-18-2004, 12:10 AM
A note about the historical inaccuracies. Stephen Spielberg has said himself that Saving Privat Ryan is not meant to be a war movie in the classical sense. He said that the movie was actually an adventure film that happened to take place during WW2.

Indianer.
07-18-2004, 12:10 AM
Its just a film.

Anyway its American, what do u expect? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif


Thats a joke by the way.

http://www.fighter-collection.com/film/img/dark_blue_world.jpg

"Wer auf die preussische Fahne schwort, hat nichts mehr, was ihm selber gehort"

DuxCorvan
07-18-2004, 06:33 AM
At least they didn't clean their a**es with Homer's 'Iliad', as they have done with 'Troy'...

Man, they even kill Menelaus and Agamemnon. I wonder why should then his son Orestes kill Aegisthus and his father's wife, Clytemnestra, if Agamemnon had not returned Mycenae to be murdered there...

And Helen just run with Paris... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif In the 'Iliad' Paris is a S.O.B. that kidnaps Helen against her will. War on Troy is in fact a rescue. After killing Achilles, Paris is slaughtered. And Helen returns to Sparta with... Menelaus, yes. Alive.

But that goes against Hollywood 'happy end' and 'romantic thread' principles... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But, anyway, who's going to make better films than those? They're an amazing entertainment, and are full of technical wonders and good actors. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Nobody else have Hollywood resources. If only they were a little more respectful with historical facts, or Literacy master works... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

Chuck_Older
07-18-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigBear84:
A note about the historical inaccuracies. Stephen Spielberg has said himself that Saving Privat Ryan is not meant to be a war movie in the classical sense. He said that the movie was actually an adventure film that happened to take place during WW2.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo.

How much of the film takes place on the beachhead, anyway?

The movie is not about D-day. It happens to be during D-day.

I love it when I hear about how terribly wrong a movie like SPR is.

The people who say things like that haven't seen movies like Patton, I guess

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

Chuck_Older
07-18-2004, 06:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
At least they didn't clean their a**es with Homer's 'Iliad', as they have done with 'Troy'...

Man, they even kill Menelaus and Agamemnon. I wonder why should then his son Orestes kill Aegisthus and his father's wife, Clytemnestra, if Agamemnon had not returned Mycenae to be murdered there...

And Helen just run with Paris... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif In the 'Iliad' Paris is a S.O.B. that kidnaps Helen against her will. War on Troy is in fact a rescue. After killing Achilles, Paris is slaughtered. And Helen returns to Sparta with... Menelaus, yes. Alive.

But that goes against Hollywood 'happy end' and 'romantic thread' principles... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

But, anyway, who's going to make better films than those? They're an amazing entertainment, and are full of technical wonders and good actors. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif Nobody else have Hollywood resources. If only they were a little more respectful with historical facts, or Literacy master works... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Dux, with the excpetion of me and a few others who have slogged their way through the poems-
nobody know what you're talking about! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
The hillsides ring with, "Free the People",
Or can I hear the echoes from the days of '39?
~ Clash

p1ngu666
07-18-2004, 07:02 AM
rearange the films name for amusing pr0n0 title http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

p51A was a ground attack aircraft btw http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

VMF114_Spyder
07-18-2004, 07:09 AM
wow it's funny how easily we can get off topic. LOL

the_soupdragon
07-18-2004, 07:45 AM
But the Iliad is a poem based on trade wars between the Greeks and the Trojans. And Helen represent trade.
But I agree The moveie Troy is the biggest pile of steaming ****e I have seen for a long long time. Even the classic Clash of the Titans was better and more accurate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

SD

http://www.btinternet.com/~the_soupdragon/Files/Sig4small.jpg

DuxCorvan
07-18-2004, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by the_soupdragon:
But I agree The moveie Troy is the biggest pile of steaming ****e I have seen for a long long time. Even the classic Clash of the Titans was better and more accurate<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I spent all the movie expecting Princess Xena to appear and kick butt... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I also remember 'Rob Roy'. Someone there to explain me why the credits say it's based on Walter Scott's classic, when it resembles the book the same an egg resembles a coconut? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

horseback
07-18-2004, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DuxCorvan:
I also remember 'Rob Roy'. Someone there to explain me why the credits say it's based on Walter Scott's classic, when it resembles the book the same an egg resembles a coconut? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Sir Walter is long dead and the copyright is long expired, so his heirs can't sue...

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

huggy87
07-18-2004, 09:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bob the Pilot:
if the mustangs in the movie were to drop 500 lb or 1000 lb bombs they would blow up the bridge as well as make a lot of the buildings nearby collapse... 'ol tom hanks would probably not be much left of. :P so the point is dont trust that movie for historical accuracy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are definitely right on that point. Even rockets would have done more damage than portrayed in the movie. When matt damon looks to the sky and says "P-51 tank buster, our angels..." it makes the anal WW2 dork in me want to vomit.

It was simply economics folks. P-51's were not tank busters, but try and find a P-47 or Tempest for your movie. They are pretty rare warbirds. However, there are still well over a hundred P-51's flying.

Zeus-cat
07-18-2004, 09:58 AM
I think SPR is a very good movie. As one person pointed out, compare it to the movie Patton. They used American tanks with German crosses on them in that movie - ughhh. It still makes my skin crawl when I see those scenes (Battle of the Bulge did it too).

The funniest thing about that is that some of the tanks they used in those movies were nicknamed after the general himself (Patton).

Look at all the great war movies. Many of them were horribly inaccurate.
The Bridge on the River Kwai -
1) the bridge is completely wrong
2) it is laughable that the Japanese needed the help of British engineers to design the bridge
3) The Japanese treatment of the prisoners in the movie was far better than in real life

The Great Escape -
The Americans were long gone by the time the escape took place

Dark Blue World -
The scene where they shoot down a Junkers bomber in the movie -
1) It is clearly an He-111.
2) Why would a single bomber be flying over England??? Then the ground controllers tell the pilots to shoot it down before it drops its bombs. It is suicide to send a single bomber on a mission like this. Duh
3) When they attack the bomber, they do it from behind. Huh? The Brits didn't train foreign pilots NEVER to attack a bomber from behind? People on this forum trash noobs whenever they say stuff like that.

I picked these three movies to analyze as I find all three movies very good and entertaining. They all have flaws, some serious, but they are all worth watching and enjoying IMO.

Zeus-cat

DuxCorvan
07-18-2004, 12:42 PM
There's something curious about the way people die in war movies. The main characters, the 'good guys', generally allies, always have some last words for their friends and a farewell for their mums and girlfriends, "Give my bro Julius this letter", "Tell Suzy I love her" and stuff like that, before dying sweetly and quietly. But axis people always die suddenly and screaming, "Uaaaarggh!", with their eyes bursting and half-tongue out, and it's more grisly if they are SS officers or Gestapo members. The more nazi, the worst death. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Nazi soldiers are also more flammable, and if a bomb explodes near, they'll burn like torches, while allied boys just have to tap a little the flames, and they're out.

In the air war movies, axis pilots always have a sadical smile while shooting and bombing, they even laugh evily, "Hahahaha!", and dribble, when they get a kill... It's not surprising they lost the war, with such a selection of psychos and mentally disabled in their Air Forces... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

But it's even worst in the pirates movies of the 40s and 50s... The Spanish sailors, even officers, are a bunch of half-naked evil drunkards, with the face painted with shoe polish, a ring in the nose and a knife between their teeth. They always want to rape the girl, and sweat and sweat... Phillip II had to be mad to send the Armada. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Not to talk about the image they give of French noblemen before the French Revolution. Don't know why Robespierre and the Jacobins wanted them dead, the species was bound to extinction alone... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

"Ooooh, intolerable..." http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
http://obsessed.expage.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/flyingcircus102.jpg

[This message was edited by DuxCorvan on Sun July 18 2004 at 11:53 AM.]

darkhorizon11
07-18-2004, 07:52 PM
"It was simply economics folks. P-51's were not tank busters, but try and find a P-47 or Tempest for your movie. They are pretty rare warbirds. However, there are still well over a hundred P-51's flying."

Actually in many cases they were. Although it wasn't too often that they carried bombs on many missions after escorting bombers back to England they were given permission to drop to low altitude and use their extra ammo on targets of oppurtunity. Many P51 jocks had plenty of mudmoving experience too.


As for Saving Private Ryan, its obviously not 100% true, although compared to what movies? The longest day? Or Pearl Harbor? I'd take SPR anytime.

SoreGlider
07-19-2004, 07:52 AM
If anybody should be interested in SPR details, here is a link for those two the Mustangs:

http://www.sproe.com/p/p51-mustang.html


For the lazier ones:

The P-51Ds featured in Saving Private Ryan are "Big Beautiful Doll," a P-51 owned and operated by the Old Flying Machine Company of Cambridge, England, and "Old Crow," a P-51 owned and operated by Scandinavian Historic Flight. Neither of these planes are the originals, but are instead painted to resemble fighter craft of the past. SHF's "Old Crow" was built during WW2, but never flew in combat. For the film, "Old Crow" was flown by Mark Hanna, who died on September 26, 1999 following a plane crash.

A valid point of criticism is the absence of any attachment points on the wings for the bomb used to destroy the tank on the Ramelle bridge. Another problem with the Mustang's attack is the profile used during the bombing run. The Mustang appears to be employing a skip bombing technique instead of a more accurate dive bombing method. When skip bombing a pilot would be required to fly level and guess the point at which to release his bomb. Using this technique with friendly forces only feet away would be extremely risky.

While Private Ryan's use of the term "tank-buster" is not necessarily a phrase commonly used to describe the P-51, the Mustang was used in the ground-attack role. The P-51s liquid-cooled engine was more vulnerable to damage, thus the P-47 Thunderbolt (with a simpler air-cooled design) was a more likely choice to conduct ground-attack missions. It is possible that the SPR crew were unable to obtain the use of two P-47s, so they opted for a viable alternative.

Aztek_Eagle
07-19-2004, 09:23 AM
i was thinking about the same thing on how inacuared the movie was, but, it is a movie, and i said that the movie gives you a good overal idea of how the combats were there

P-DEX
07-19-2004, 10:04 AM
I always figured that using the Mustangs in SPR was a simple matter of economics...there are simply more flyable P-51's in the world than P-47's or P-38's. I would have loved to see some '47's fly over for sure but it is what it is.

And I read where there are some that grumble about the technique that '51s used to attack the tanks. Well, I assure you the way they "attacked" was done purely for cinematic reasons. You have a much "cooler" effect when you see fighters buzzing along the trees. Utilizing the third dimension (I.E. dive bombing) would have most likely had a less-than-desired effect Speilberg was going for. Speilberg is all about the emotional impact of this particluar film, not necessarily historical accuracy. And he hit it with me. I couldn't bring myself to play computer wargames for about 10 days after seeing this film...it was that visceral.

TheEngine88
07-19-2004, 10:13 AM
I suppose it boils down to whether you see the glass half empty or half full. The film does have some inaccuracies, but i prefer to enjoy the things they get right, rather than bemoan minor technical inaccuracies.

"Pain Fades, Glory lasts forever, Chicks dig scars."

huggy87
07-19-2004, 10:49 AM
No matter what planes were used, any bomb dropped would do a lot more damage to the bridge, buildings, and people around the tank (as per a previous post) than depicted in the movie. I can attest to that from personally dropping many 500 and 1000 pounders. Those P-51's would have to use rockets or bombs to take out a tank, but in the movie the collateral damage is very minor. Just hollywood probably. Unless...

Does anyone know if the allies carried hollow charge rockets on aircraft? They would be better suited for armor penetration than HE rockets and leave little collateral damage.