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View Full Version : What's more important to you? Equality or the Sim Experience?



XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:13 PM
We've seen lots of debates here over various hardware configurations, seen some things debated as giving an unfair advantage, and on and on the debate goes.

Trim on a slider? Be my guest - I don't even use trim.

TrackIR? Yes, I use it, and my online proficiency went downhill when I got it (though my enjoyment went WAY up)

HOTASS? Don't have one but I used to burn people's asses in school all the time. What of it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To me, it's exciting to see people accomplish cool setups that enhance their simming experience. If it gives them an advantage online, I don't care too much because IMO furthering the world of sims through enhancements and hardware is much more important. I don't play for money or stature, I play to immerse myself in a make-believe flying game on my computer.

I hate to see creativity and awesome products (like trackIR for example) get negative flak because they bring a lot more to our community than they take away. Who knows what cool things we'll be playing with in 2-3 years?

I'm not promoting cheating, but if you have an advantage because you took the time to devise "the next big hardware thing", then all the power to you because in the long run we all stand to gain. Some have better video cards than others, some better joysticks. Is it a big deal? If you're getting shot down too much, BECOME A BETTER PILOT.

All the hardware in the world doesn't make a better pilot in the end. It just makes for a more immersed pilot, IMO.

Thoughts?



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I.
</CENTER>
</p>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:13 PM
We've seen lots of debates here over various hardware configurations, seen some things debated as giving an unfair advantage, and on and on the debate goes.

Trim on a slider? Be my guest - I don't even use trim.

TrackIR? Yes, I use it, and my online proficiency went downhill when I got it (though my enjoyment went WAY up)

HOTASS? Don't have one but I used to burn people's asses in school all the time. What of it? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

To me, it's exciting to see people accomplish cool setups that enhance their simming experience. If it gives them an advantage online, I don't care too much because IMO furthering the world of sims through enhancements and hardware is much more important. I don't play for money or stature, I play to immerse myself in a make-believe flying game on my computer.

I hate to see creativity and awesome products (like trackIR for example) get negative flak because they bring a lot more to our community than they take away. Who knows what cool things we'll be playing with in 2-3 years?

I'm not promoting cheating, but if you have an advantage because you took the time to devise "the next big hardware thing", then all the power to you because in the long run we all stand to gain. Some have better video cards than others, some better joysticks. Is it a big deal? If you're getting shot down too much, BECOME A BETTER PILOT.

All the hardware in the world doesn't make a better pilot in the end. It just makes for a more immersed pilot, IMO.

Thoughts?



<p align="center"> http://www.1stclassproperties.ca/mr/Spit.jpg
Tongue-tied & twisted,
just an earthbound misfit,
I.
</CENTER>
</p>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:16 PM
The sim experience...equality can never be achieved...it's impossible. As long as you have different levels of income, priority and passion for the sim there can be no equality. One guy thinks $100 is too much to spend on a joystick...another will spend $200 and not blink. One guy just cant afford a $300 video card while another will think nothing of droppin $500 for one....and will upgrade every six months.... No such thing as equality.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:22 PM
If they would speed the trim back up this game would be rightous again.

Those who fly with precision know what I'm talking about.

I was just joking when I rag on trackIR, rhough it seems alot of people are making a big deal out of it. The only thing I have against it is people who turn off padlock. Padlock is a great part of this game and the only reason it gets turned off is the host is a communist or trackIR user. Even Oleg admits it should be a part of full real!

This is a game more than it is a sim (even Oleg admits so). I say make it the best game it can be.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 08:35 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- -
- This is a game more than it is a sim (even Oleg
- admits so). I say make it the best game it can be.
-
I hate to admit, but...

The guy is absolutely right. I've got a crud machine and a 10 joystick, i still love FB. There will never be equality (as bearcat said) so just chill out and enjoy!

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:16 PM
nice post dex,i am with you on that topic.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 10:50 PM
If it was too real, nobody would want to USE it.

Thats why they PLAY it. Anything where you do over and over again where you simulate getting killed is a game.

It's just cool that the planes are like actual planes. To bad the cockpit only simulates a pilot with 1 eye (could use some tranparency to the cockpit bars) or more people would fly with the cockpit-on too. That's why it's not cool to turn padlock off. Things are bad enough as it is. Gimmie some dark range icons, too.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
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<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:23 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- If they would speed the trim back up this game would
- be rightous again.

Oddly I agree, but not for the same reasons. I just can not, for the life of me, get trimmed for level flight without constant 'overshoot'.

- Those who fly with precision know what I'm talking
- about.

I love it when he says this. I actually "LOL".

- I was just joking when I rag on trackIR, rhough it
- seems alot of people are making a big deal out of
- it. The only thing I have against it is people who
- turn off padlock. Padlock is a great part of this
- game and the only reason it gets turned off is the
- host is a communist or trackIR user. Even Oleg
- admits it should be a part of full real!

Agree again. One day, I hope to have enough 'simulation junky' friends to allow for a dedicated TIR users' server, but untill then, Padlock should always be allowed.

- This is a game more than it is a sim (even Oleg
- admits so). I say make it the best game it can be.
-

I disagree here. This game is (almost) anything the end user wants it to be. Thats the greatest thing about the IL2 series. The guy with a $14 stick can have just as much fun as the guy with a cockpit in his attic. Interestingly, both are often pitted against the other in online fights, totally oblivious to the others gear (untill someone is killed, then its "Oh, nice video card" or "I could do that if I had a seperate throttle control".. haha.)

Of course, I wish there were a few more tech-friendly options allowed (primarily: an API for pulling flight data from the sim in real time), but overall, there is very little about the game/sim that I don't like.

Anyways: getting on to the question: the important thing to me is *my* sim experience. I don't want someone blaming my gear on thier losses, but most of the time I don't care what other players think, as long as they're fun to fly with.


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Message Edited on 06/23/0306:24PM by BaldieJr

XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:25 PM
Good post Dex.

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:28 PM
good post.

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XyZspineZyX
06-23-2003, 11:43 PM
Padlock totally ruins the sim and should not be allowed online in FR.

At least, the way it is now.

Even before I had TIR I never liked using it, but that was just a personal preference because it killed the immersiveness even more than hatswitching 3 times just to look out your left six.

I don't have a problem with the way it tracks other planes, just the way it lights them up in neon before you could even notice the dot most of the time. Then, to be competitive you have to hammer the "padlock" button constantly to "see" the enemy before he does the same to see you.

******ed.

Padlock seeing halfway through a cloud blows too.

The reason why it sucks this way is because it almost completely eliminates any tactical positioning advantage. That's half the fun because after you know where each other is it comes down to just mechanics of dogfighting.

Now, all that said, there should be some sort of IFF system in place (friendly icons) and maybe some way of identifying enemies a bit further out than is now possible (as an option I guess) to make up for the limitations of our monitors.

It's a big balancing act between simming and gaming. We should have the options to play it the way we would like, with similar minded people.

"You can ***** your finger..."

Flying online as "Charvel"

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:44 AM
PriK wrote:
- Padlock totally ruins the sim and should not be
- allowed online in FR.
-
-



Totally agree


I do not have trackir but have no objections to it.

I do and have ALWAYS seen the FB padlock with the green targetting triangle that sees through clouds as an exploit online and have never used it even once online. In fact I have never used padlock in FB at all.

Why VEF allows padlock escapes me entirely ..

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:51 AM
If you want to spend several hundred dollars on top notch flight sim equipment, fine by me. I'm in this just for the fun of it. One thing that ticks me off though is the non-cockpit first person view...IMO it should be removed from multiplay.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:38 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- If it was too real, nobody would want to USE it.

Excellent point.

- It's just cool that the planes are like actual
- planes. To bad the cockpit only simulates a pilot
- with 1 eye (could use some tranparency to the
- cockpit bars) or more people would fly with the
- cockpit-on too. That's why it's not cool to turn
- padlock off. Things are bad enough as it is.
- Gimmie some dark range icons, too.

Again, good point RBJ... but I think that it is nearly impossible to get rid of the "one eyed pilot" issue.

- <img
- src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/rep
- ository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>

Is this really you? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Ronnie

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:46 AM
rcorporon wrote:
o.
-
- Again, good point RBJ... but I think that it is
- nearly impossible to get rid of the "one eyed pilot"
- issue.


it is true that in real life VERTICAL cockpit bars closer than a metre to you appear transparent if you look beyond then but not horizontal ones.

I doubt even 3d glaases will show that effect though .. it would need to be modelled in and probably would look rather odd.


Padlock doesnt make up for that though, Padlock is simply an auto-target-lock for pilots to dumb to track a bandit by themselves

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:53 AM
Both

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 07:20 AM
Test

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 07:34 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
-
- I was just joking when I rag on trackIR, rhough it
- seems alot of people are making a big deal out of
- it. The only thing I have against it is people who
- turn off padlock. Padlock is a great part of this
- game and the only reason it gets turned off is the
- host is a communist or trackIR user. Even Oleg
- admits it should be a part of full real!


yeah , ok RBJ, but i dont agree .what has trackIR to do with padlock?you are making wrong causal assumptions.afaik, before trackIR made its entrance,there where hosts who did not allow padlock,like in full real servers.
so saying that trackIR users are responsible for getting padlock turned off is wrong.
i don't know about communist though/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


you use the mouse to look around, i use my head, i don't see the difference.you use padlock with it, i do not.
thats only because i do not like the feel of it, but i don't mind if others use it.

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 11:43 AM
I'd go for the sim experience. Like others already pointed out, its impossible to gain a equality over the full scope of players involved. There so many things that may add some sort of advantage (bigger screens, greater gfx cards etc.) it is almost impossible to get it all leveled.

The game itself is not balanced either, so one type of plane will have some or more advantages over others.

So really this is one of my least of worries! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif If I had the money I would buy equipment that would enhance my flying experience.

I mean, soon we're going to complain about people's skill. Hey, that player is so good, he must be cheating! Oh wait ... we already do. *rolls eyes*





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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:50 PM
Immersion any day. War is not fair. Life is not fair. Life in general and aerial combat in particular is recognizing the good cards you have been dealt, no matter how sh1tty the hand, and making the best use of them. Do it well, and your chanses of success increase.

Cheers,
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No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

No sig as of now, as people apparently can't handle reality without creating too much trouble for the poor mods.

michapma
06-24-2003, 12:56 PM
Dex, what the heck is positive flak?


I tend to whimper about my own performance than any given hardware advantage. Take what you got and fight with it.

<table width="100%" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td height="40" colspan="3" align="center">The ongoing IL-2 User's Guide project</font> (http://people.ee.ethz.ch/~chapman/il2guide/)</a></td></tr><tr><td width="40%">FB engine management:
Manifold Pressure sucks (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182081-1.html)
Those Marvelous Props (http://www.avweb.com/news/columns/182082-1.html)
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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 12:57 PM
The sim experience, no question.



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fluke39
06-24-2003, 01:00 PM
Bearcat99 wrote:
- The sim experience...equality can never be
- achieved...it's impossible. As long as you have
- different levels of income, priority and passion for
- the sim there can be no equality. One guy thinks
- $100 is too much to spend on a joystick...another
- will spend $200 and not blink. One guy just cant
- afford a $300 video card while another will think
- nothing of droppin $500 for one....and will upgrade
- every six months.... No such thing as equality.

well said sir

so theres no point in trying


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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:09 PM
I agree i don't think someones hardware has anything to do with the game it's self. Don't get me wrong having up to date hardware will improve your fun but it doesn't matter it all boils down to the pilot at hand.

I mean when il2 was out i had a 32mb card and from the lagg i was shooting at planes that were long gone by the time my shells got there. With the release of FB i planned ahead bought a better comp had to the old one was a P2 and spent the extra cash to get a top of the line video card. The frame rates improved and now when i shoot at planes i hit them, but doesn't make me better i still become a dirt torpedo often but thats why we have respawn. But at least i wont have to upgrade for a few years. By then it wont matter anyway my new comp will be out dated.

A couple of days ago i saw a pic here of a set up with like 15 to 20 monitors where they were laid out to see from wing to wing. If this gives that person an advantage great, i wish i could but my wife would kill me lol.

In short it will never be even from planes to noobs, veterans, and aces as long as your having fun who cares thats what its all about. Or at least to me.

In all regards may you not become a dirt torpedo.

PlatinumDragon...

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:13 PM
The bottom line is people should be enjoying themselves, so to each his own.

This is a hobby, it's escapism from real life. Get whatever machine and setup you want or can afford, and fly whatever aircraft you really enjoy flying.


In reply to the original question though, the sim experience is most important to me, though I'm not into the homemade cockpits. For those people that are into it, I say "more power to you, have fun."


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====================================
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====================================

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 01:49 PM
FW190fan wrote:
- The bottom line is people should be enjoying
- themselves, so to each his own.
-

Bravo!! Bravissimo!!

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XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:22 PM
Nice thread!

"Its not wether you win or lose, but how you play the game that counts."

Got online recently & had some real fun. People were friendly & good sports. preferred some servers to others, & I think joining the kind of game you like is important.

The people are more important than their hardware.

Cheers,


"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
06-24-2003, 02:27 PM
I suppose this is one of those threads that could have gone nasty, but is actually a triumph of reasonable-mindedness and restraint.

For me its about having fun. Off line, equality is immaterial. On-line, I could care less, but not much.


Speaking hypothetically, if I were to join a server and one of my opponents was , for example, using an aimbot that automatically calculated lead and displayed a pipper in much the same way that modern gunsights do, allowing them to get perfect deflection shots every time, well then I just wouldn't fly with or against them again. I am concerned about *that* sort of equality.

Also speaking hypothetically, if I were to join a server and one of my opponents was, for example, flying me right out of the sky, shaking me off every time I got near, outwitting me at every turn and generally grinding me in to the mud, then I would make a note of his name and make a mental note to fly against (or with) him at every opportunity so that I could learn. I wouldn't care whether his superiority was down to skills, trim or a 14 monitor setup...

In short, IMHO there are two aspects to the equality debate: Hardware based (bigger monitor, faster machine, track-IR, HOTAS) and software based (bat turns, aimbot, overspeed etc). My personal viewpoint is that the former category is absolutely fine and acceptable, the latter is not. Having said that, some people feel that some of the latter category *are* acceptable. I'll not argue with them, I just won't seek to fly with them.

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