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Samuel5093
02-29-2004, 11:39 AM
Jow, I was just wondering about something. I just downed the RAF campaign of Extreme_one(congrats dude, it's absolutly the best) and in order to fully experience the RAF battle, I turned of the icons. What I see is: damn hard to tell bandit from friendly!! Now my question is, what do you guys and girls out there prefer. I think that in real life, pilots had a much better view and were able to more easily identify planes. Give your opinion!!

Samuel5093
02-29-2004, 11:39 AM
Jow, I was just wondering about something. I just downed the RAF campaign of Extreme_one(congrats dude, it's absolutly the best) and in order to fully experience the RAF battle, I turned of the icons. What I see is: damn hard to tell bandit from friendly!! Now my question is, what do you guys and girls out there prefer. I think that in real life, pilots had a much better view and were able to more easily identify planes. Give your opinion!!

lindyman
02-29-2004, 12:02 PM
You're right. It is much easier in real life (not to say that it's always easy, though.)
_
/Bjorn.

VW-IceFire
02-29-2004, 12:08 PM
Real pilot vision is far superior than what we have in the game (a 1024x768 or higher grid is being used to simulate the vast resolution ability and focusing power of the human eye)...but there are limitations to the medium and we live with them. The game also provides some help to compensate for that loss in visual acuity with icons and with padlock (simulating a pilots head movements).

Some argue, even flame, about the use of these "crutches" but to each is own. Play with the settings that makes you most happy.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

SeaFireLIV
02-29-2004, 12:15 PM
Well, I`ve read a couple of WWII fighter accounts of the first airwars over Britain. The accounts range from `Not sure what`s happening` to `total confusion`.
Even on a recent program about BOB the pilots said that often they weren`t sure who was doing what to who or why? One guy even said he believed to this day he was accidentally shot down by a Spitfire friendly.

A Monitor of a computer simply isn`t going to give the reality of real life, but I`ve flown without icons and never went back (unless a server online forces me- ooffline, Never).
The experience to me was extremely similar to the accounts I hear. Confusion at first and don`t expect a kill in the first mission unless you`re lucky.

But after awhile you see clues.
1. tracer fire. Means 2 planes fighting eachother. Go in, find the enemy.
2. Lookout for the telltale signs (tracer colour. Yellow Jerry markings).
3. If you see fire and someone says, "Help!" Go after the dot that`s firing at the other dot.
4.Where did the dots come from? Enemy side? Friendly side?
5. Bomber dots stay together. Fighter dots break up as you approach.

Use the clues.

There are more signs, but it`s really common sense and thought...
Soon after 2 to 4 missions you begin to recognise the silhouettes... The eye learns...

Many people moan and complain, but they tend to have little patience. With patience and time flying without icons can be done, be extremely enjoyable and immersive.

Like I said I fly offline WITHOUT icons now, and do so as much as I can online.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/P47duck.jpg
They laffed at the ordnance they had to themselves!

Bearcat99
02-29-2004, 12:15 PM
This topic comes up every week, or so it seems. For me flying without icons is preferable... open or closed pit depending on how Im feeling at the moment. When I fly off line I just unlock the cockpit so I can toggle back and forth as it suits me... I find both ways very enjoyable and satisfying. If I DO use icons I prefer them with the pit on because I find those arrows to be anti-immersive for me. IMO you dont fly the plane or the opponent when you use icons and no pit.... you fly the plane, the opponent and the arrows... I prefer the former. Id rather have to work to find my opponent and use my skill to maintain tally or evade him, than to depend on some floating arrows around my screen..... 17" monitor & 2D:3D limitations or not. I do like externals..for the viewing and sheer beauty of the sim plus I think externals make up for the lack of perifferal vision better than the arrows because like in real life, you have to keep your eye on the road so to speak or you run into a wall at the next turn..... read sky and ground where applicable. No matter how good you are.....if you have a skilled and determined foe on your 6 you can only evade him for so long out of your pit, so the notion of the externals being a "cheat" or unrealistic is not as valid as you might think...again IMO of course...... either he will nail you, especially if he is a good shot, or you will loose control of your AC and crash. The cockpits are so good looking in this sim it is a shame not to enjoy them... but I just use no icons so that when I do decide to turn the pit off I dont have to deal with arrows. I also find that my plane recognition skills are improving and I am actually getting used to being able to use my gauges to fly better.

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arcadeace
02-29-2004, 12:26 PM
The biggest problem for me is the arrows so I don't play icons either. Like the others its taken time but I've gotten used to the challenge and will never go back. Having said this, to each his own. If someone prefer's the arrows to derive enjoyment than good for him, its a game and enjoyment should be the bottom line.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167658.jpg

Steaky_361st
02-29-2004, 12:50 PM
If you can learn what each plane in the game looks like with a full profile view...it makes it a ton easier.

-----------------------------------------------
Steaks
Cpt 375thFS
"And you thought the meat last night was tough..."

Chuck_Older
02-29-2004, 01:15 PM
Offline, I use Icons. I am playing to have some fun, and it doesn't bother another real person that I can "see" where they are on the map. One thing that bugs me in FB a lot is the radio, and I'll explain later, but I use icons offline because the campaign ALWAYS seems to put my enemy in an altitude advantage. Unless I use icons, I can't manuever around enough to gain altitude parity or advantage. If I am flight leader it's a bit different, but I still don't want to fly around for half an hour doing nothing because I know that there aren't bandits randomly around.

I have flown online exactly once, and boy did THAT bring back memories of not knowing what to do in a on-line game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . I got a flippin pop-up ad in-flight, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Must not hate, must not hate... But I was thinking about all the options for difficulty on-line.

I don't think I'll use icons, as a general rule. Other folks are playing the game, too, not just me, and yeah, someone COULD be sneaking up on me. A bounce is the standard tactic to get a kill! But this is where the crummy radio comes in, offline and on-line, in COOPs, I imagine- friendly AI just acts on their own a lot, and doesn't give info. In real life, my wingman or whoever spotted the bandits would not only tell me they spotted bandits, but they'd wait for my command to split or attack or drop tanks or bombs. Now online, you can type-chat, but my hands are already full! So in a way, map icons take up the slack for the crummy communication situation.
Maybe in just a quick dogfight I will use Icons, but then again, losing sight of the enemy is a real possibilty and a real disadvantage. I don't think I'll mind losing my enemy in the Sun, and then running for it because I must now assume he's on my six. At the time I will be unhappy, but that adds to the realism for me- not being able to see the badguy. And in a way, denying my enemy that victory will be staisfying, too. I am alright offensively, but how good am I defensively? Sight advantage should work in my favor, too-just like real life. The pilot that spots the other guy first has an advantage- I want to try that out and use it and react to it. This has got to be the single biggest difference when playing online, and I don't want to waste it.

*****************************
Did anyone prophesize these people? Only Travis. Come in Travis! ~ Clash

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 01:29 PM
I check every box in the difficulty menu. I don't get a lot of kills compared to using icons, but they feel better when I do. I also get lost a lot, but always manage to get back home. I just prefer flying that way. It might be harder than real life, but i'd rather it be harder than easier.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Highalt
02-29-2004, 02:59 PM
it wouldn't be harder than real life. real WWII pilots was under the pressure of high G's, stress, thrill and so o when flying. Only the presnce of death would be enough to make all the things confusing and all this would make the real WWII pilots to confuse the friends or enemies. But ofcourse the vision issue is correct. Everything was much more apperent in real life.

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 03:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highalt:
it wouldn't be harder than real life. real WWII pilots was under the pressure of high G's, stress, thrill and so o when flying. Only the presnce of death would be enough to make all the things confusing and all this would make the real WWII pilots to confuse the friends or enemies. But ofcourse the vision issue is correct. Everything was much more apperent in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you can see is all I was talking about.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Highalt
02-29-2004, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highalt:
it wouldn't be harder than real life. real WWII pilots was under the pressure of high G's, stress, thrill and so o when flying. Only the presnce of death would be enough to make all the things confusing and all this would make the real WWII pilots to confuse the friends or enemies. But ofcourse the vision issue is correct. Everything was much more apperent in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you can see is all I was talking about.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we are dogfighting in our secure homes while sping our coffees but real WWII pilots was dancing with death under intense pressure of stress. so it is funny to say, when icons are turned off all the things become harder than real life.LOL

Fillmore
02-29-2004, 03:52 PM
Friendly fire was not at all unheard of irl. As I understand P51s in particular were mistaken for 109s (seems strange to me). I prefer no icons and I have never intentionally fired upon a plane that turned out to be friendly, nor have I ever thought an enemy plane to be friendly because it had the wrong markings (I have been unsure, but never so unsure that I didn't chase, and always sure within firing range).

I think going from scratch rl visibility is better and easier, but once you get used to it and have experience iding planes ingame isn't unreasonably difficult.

The one big difference is that irl some people have better than normal vision which helps alot, while ingame it doesn't really help (in both cases it hurts to have poor vision of course).

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highalt:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Highalt:
it wouldn't be harder than real life. real WWII pilots was under the pressure of high G's, stress, thrill and so o when flying. Only the presnce of death would be enough to make all the things confusing and all this would make the real WWII pilots to confuse the friends or enemies. But ofcourse the vision issue is correct. Everything was much more apperent in real life.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What you can see is all I was talking about.

Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------
http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

we are dogfighting in our secure homes while sping our coffees but real WWII pilots was dancing with death under intense pressure of stress. so it is funny to say, when icons are turned off all the things become harder than real life.LOL<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course it's not as hard as real life, because as you say, our lives arn't on the line. However, we don't have the feedback that real life gives us either. We have no seat of the pants feel. In real life you can see much better, and you can move your head to look around things. In that way. It is harder for us.


I'm really into race sims, and have road raced sports cars, and some small formula cars. I find racing real cars much easier than race sims, even though there is no fear on the computer. We just don't have the feedback on a computer to have it feel real, and in that way it is harder.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

DONB3397
02-29-2004, 04:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BuzzU:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by BuzzU:
I'm really into race sims, and have road raced sports cars, and some small formula cars. I find racing real cars much easier than race sims, even though there is no fear on the computer. We just don't have the feedback on a computer to have it feel real, and in that way it is harder.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
OT, Buzz. What F1 race, year and cars are shown in your sig. Looks like Clark/lotus in front and, maybe, Surtees/Ferrari.
BTW, your post is spot on. SA is a big part of the equation, and without TIR or something like it, many are at a disadvantage without at least distance icons.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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Monty_Thrud
02-29-2004, 05:12 PM
I've had icons switched off now for many months and much prefer it, although i cheat a bit and use the map icons, atleast for the moment until i'm confident enough in my ability, then they'll go.
I'm increasing the difficulty slowly, even though losing the icons was a nightmare at first, i would'nt fly any other way offline.

http://www.uploadit.org/bsamania/Huzzy4-sig.jpg
"#2 Attack that ship".."#1..with what?".."#2 your ordnance DAMMIT!".."#1 my ordnance is in Olegs office, same place yours is".."#2 we'd better learn German then"

Chuck_Older
02-29-2004, 06:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DONB3397:
[QUOTE]OT, Buzz. What F1 race,<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am guessing Spa-Francorchamps, and '65, Clark's second World Championship year. The rain and the house in the background make me think Spa. The Lotus 33 and the fact that it is the subject of the painting makes me think '65 because it's a significant year, unless I've mixed up my model years on Lotii. Clark hated Spa but excelled at it, as I'm sure you know http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Flower of Scotland, will wee see your like again?"

Sorry, I'm full of Glenmorangie http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

*****************************
Did anyone prophesize these people? Only Travis. Come in Travis! ~ Clash

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 07:34 PM
It does look like Spa, but I don't think it's 65. It's hard to tell from the angle, but I believe that's a Lotus 25. So, maybe it's 63. I don't remember where I got the pic of the painting, so I can't say for sure what it is. I have never seen a real picture like that, so it might just be made up by the artist.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

Chuck_Older
02-29-2004, 07:38 PM
Looks like the left turn soon after eau rouge...you know, given the body shape of the Ferrari, it could be '63...'62 would be the shark-nose, right? I guess if you could ID the Ferrari, it might fix a date. Cool painting.

*****************************
Did anyone prophesize these people? Only Travis. Come in Travis! ~ Clash

BuzzU
02-29-2004, 07:40 PM
The shark nose would be even earlier, so i'm guessing the painting to be 62-63.

Buzz
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http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/Jamnut/clark19.jpg

WUAF_Badsight
02-29-2004, 09:45 PM
you can see more & at further distances BY FAR


http://www.imageshack.us/files2/107-0716_IMG2.jpg

karost
03-01-2004, 05:43 AM
Hi , WUAF_Badsight and friend

If BOB can present the sky like the picture you post , then no need to use ICON

hope people like to fly full switch more and more

I still rememeber the first day I join server with full switch .... after 10 min. I just don't know where am I , and could not find the way back to home base http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

so navigator is important too when you got new map in AEP.

S!

Bearcat99
03-01-2004, 07:24 AM
Hey Buzz...when I was @9 one christmas I got a racing set with those same cars in it... LOL.. it brings back memories.......


For navigation I have found that constantly checking the map is the only way for me to not get totally lost...and even then I sometimes do. I check the map every few minutes of flight..... just a quick glance to make sure of whereabouts I am.

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