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MiamiEagle
08-15-2004, 11:36 PM
The other day I was browsing the forum to find out witch planes where going to included in Pacific fighter.I read that in a post from Germany they had a early list of planes that where going to be included. It seem to me that people in Germany are also interested in the Pacific war. I wonder whats your view of this war and what makes it interesting to you. This was a different war than the one in Europe. While both wars influenced each other . They where different wars that were fought differently. Since most European beleive that the real war in World War 11 was in European . Iam facinated on whats your view on the Pacific war. Was it secondary or primary Front. Where the Japanese good allies. Do you think you could have the war won with out them.Do you think they where good pilots and equal to yours in the begning of the war. Do you play the Axis side all the time wishing they had won the war. Perhaps you play the ally side once in while beleiving that was history and Germany needed to lose so a better Germany would come out of it. I hope you do not feel intimidated . Their are no wrong answers. Only what you really feel. I will respect what ever your answer might be.I hope if you are a German who can read English. You will give us your honest answer. Thank you

MiamiEagle
08-15-2004, 11:36 PM
The other day I was browsing the forum to find out witch planes where going to included in Pacific fighter.I read that in a post from Germany they had a early list of planes that where going to be included. It seem to me that people in Germany are also interested in the Pacific war. I wonder whats your view of this war and what makes it interesting to you. This was a different war than the one in Europe. While both wars influenced each other . They where different wars that were fought differently. Since most European beleive that the real war in World War 11 was in European . Iam facinated on whats your view on the Pacific war. Was it secondary or primary Front. Where the Japanese good allies. Do you think you could have the war won with out them.Do you think they where good pilots and equal to yours in the begning of the war. Do you play the Axis side all the time wishing they had won the war. Perhaps you play the ally side once in while beleiving that was history and Germany needed to lose so a better Germany would come out of it. I hope you do not feel intimidated . Their are no wrong answers. Only what you really feel. I will respect what ever your answer might be.I hope if you are a German who can read English. You will give us your honest answer. Thank you

ASH at S-MART
08-16-2004, 12:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
The other day I was browsing the forum to find out witch planes where going to included in Pacific fighter.I read that in a post from Germany they had a early list of planes that where going to be included. It seem to me that people in Germany are also interested in the Pacific war. I wonder whats your view of this war and what makes it interesting to you. This was a different war than the one in Europe. While both wars influenced each other . They where different wars that were fought differently. Since most European beleive that the real war in World War 11 was in European . Iam facinated on whats your view on the Pacific war. Was it secondary or primary Front. Where the Japanese good allies. Do you think you could have the war won with out them.Do you think they where good pilots and equal to yours in the begning of the war. Do you play the Axis side all the time wishing they had won the war. Perhaps you play the ally side once in while beleiving that was history and Germany needed to lose so a better Germany would come out of it. I hope you do not feel intimidated . Their are no wrong answers. Only what you really feel. I will respect what ever your answer might be.I hope if you are a German who can read English. You will give us your honest answer. Thank you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont know what they think.. But Ill tell you what I think... I think you would have done better to limit your questions down to one or two.. And one thing to keep in mind when reading the replys.. if any.. They are all made AFTER THE FACT so.. Dont really mater.. Hind sight is 20 20 and it is easy to make the call after the fact.. But during the heat of the moment when you dont know which way it will go.. That is when I would have liked to ask those types of questions!

ASH HOUSEWARES GROOVY (http://www.garnersclassics.com/wavs/army/groovy.wav)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsmovie/ash.jpg

HangerQueen
08-16-2004, 01:02 AM
I bet Hitler was annoyed when the Japanese made peace with the Russians, thus freeing up Soviet troops from the Soviet Far East.

Other than that, I don't know that there was much cooperation between the two. The Germans sent the Japanese some of their Daimler Benz inline engines which the Japanese copied and placed in some of their fighters. And a couple of German planes were sent over to Japan for evaluation. Was there any other cooperation going on?

Actually, I'm beginning to think that the Germans got a raw deal out of this! I suppose the Japanese diverted US/Commonwealth troops to the Pacific that could have otherwise have been used in europe.

Speed is a device of Shaitan - Fremen Proverb

CHDT
08-16-2004, 01:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Other than that, I don't know that there was much cooperation between the two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It was not on a large scale, but there were some Japanese volonteers in the Wehrmacht, especially in Normandy:

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/9969/Asiatic6.jpg

http://img26.exs.cx/img26/3507/Asiatic1.jpg

stansdds
08-16-2004, 04:01 AM
Now ain't that sumpthin'!

I really don't know if Japan's alliance with Germany helped or not. As long as the U.S. was out of the war, Germany was enjoying great success in conquering a large portion of Europe. The Japanese bombing of Pearl Harbor and Adolph Hitler declaring war on the U.S. brought the U.S. fully into the war.

More questions can now be raised. If Hitler had not declared war on the U.S., would the U.S. have continued to send supplies to the British? Would the U.S. have just fought the Japanese, perhaps cutting supplies to the British in that effort?

You can Monday morning quarterback and "what if" all day long, but there are no definite answers.

Lt.Davis
08-16-2004, 04:21 AM
The 2nd pix somebody post it before. It's actually not Japanese, it's Korean. The story goes by explaination below:-

Japanese capture the Korean on the 2nd pix, and force them to fight with Russian, then Russian army capture them and again force them to fight with German and the story keep going till German soldier capture them as POW and force them to fight with Allied Army. And their final destination was capture by US Army.

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

CHDT
08-16-2004, 05:12 AM
Wow, unlucky people, always on the bad place http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Btw, there were some volunteers like this Korean guy in a Rouman unit!!!

http://img31.exs.cx/img31/1334/Asiatic8.jpg

Flydutch
08-16-2004, 06:53 AM
Korea was colonised by the Japanese since ages.

To the Japanese they were part of their Empire but second class citizens!

During WWII they would get the dirty and unglamerous jobs to be done for the Empirial Japanese forces.

There where also Koreans who resisted the Japanese Colonisation and Expansion in the East.


My grand mother who lived in the Occupied Dutch Indies, told me that the Prison guard soldiers were usaly Koreans with Japanese officers, it is known that the officers were brutal towards 'their' soldiers, She told me that if possible the Korean guards where nice or helpfull to the prisoners if the Officers were not around. I think they must have been Imprisoned Improseners themselfs!

After the War, because it took a long time for the allies to actual take over the 'Liberated areas the Japanese and Koreans became from brutal Imprisoners to their Bodyguards It was better for the POW's to stay in the prison Camps becuase the Natives would slaughter any Dutch or colaberating people!

MiamiEagle
08-16-2004, 11:30 PM
You guys misunderstood why wrote this Post.I just want to know what this Generation of Germans of today think of World War 11 . Iam also very intersted in what they think of the Pacific war. Since they seem intersted in buying Pacific Fighter. They could give us a different percecption of the war.This is not a Hitorical research like some of seem to implied. Iam just interested in the point of view of todays German Generation.

Cajun76
08-16-2004, 11:45 PM
World War 11 hasn't been fought yet. I've got some sharp sticks and large rocks ready to fight WWIV after WWIII sends us back to the Stone Age, though. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif



Sorry, couldn't resist.

Good hunting,
(56th)*Cajun76
http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/Cajun76/p47nh.jpg
If you have trouble hitting your objective, your secondary targets are here and here,
an accordian factory and a mime school. Good luck, gentlemen. - Admiral Benson

warweapon2
08-17-2004, 12:43 AM
LOL, i remember this hilarious story about these Koreans being captured by the Japanese, then they were captured by the Russians and forced to fight on the Finnish front before FINALLY being captured by Finnish troops..

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
08-17-2004, 12:52 AM
OK I'll try the first step although...you'll find out later... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I think generally you'Re about right. People here(germany and europe) always have more knowlegde and in this way feelings, to a conflict which was fought "locally".
With germany subjugating most of europe in a rush it's difficult not to think of it that way.
Second fact is that together with this "general" interest of WWII in europe most of these people had relatives fighting for one of the armies. Thus you'll get to know only the things you get from your relatives and this way beginning your interest into this topic biased from the start. Since there weren't that many "germans" fighting in japan (irony) you can't expect them to have the same feeling for this war. It rather seems far far away.
Of course, everyone knowing the facts and reading some books will understand the magnitude of the conflict in the pacifics and it's influence on the european theatre and for the whole war. In fact Japan was waging war for much longer (started earlier) and was by no means less cruel that Nazi-Germany and it took a lot of good souls to stop that rampaging country from achieving ist goal (same as stopping nazi-germany in europe).

From player's POV the pacifics isn't something I am really excited about (honestly). Of course carrier battles are important, navigation is crucial and as such more demanding than navigating by following roads and rivers but also more dull. Without wanting to downgrade it...
My concern lies in the physics modelling of the game. With the dive-accellarations not being crisp (currently an yak-3 will accelarate the same way as a P-47...) the situation for the american players will be reversed. Whereas axis player were very frustrated about the easy-going-style red-players enjoyed for so long I already can see some surprised Spit and Corsair aces being caught in a Zoom by a zeke which started below them... But that's the technical stuff.
I myself will certainly have a go on the pacifics, being interested mainly in the Hellcat, Corsair and the Ki-100 (something which more or less resembles a FW if it gets modelled...) and of course the B25.
I am also interested in adding thousands of new objects to my existing ETO maps, making some atlantic carrier battles (Operation Torch anyone ? Sicilly...)
I think for me PF will be flying with less heated debates about FM and DM etc.

Now why did I say "although" at the beginning ? Erm, because I live in germany for 23 years now but happen to be of polish heritage and as such I think I don't qualify as 100% german.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Happy hunting and you better make your hook catch wire 3...

!S!

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

MiamiEagle
08-17-2004, 11:16 AM
JaBBo I appreciate you honest repond.You may not bee a pure German but you more than qualify.I also appreciate all the other post written before. I have learn from all of you. Iam Impress with all the knowledge you guys have demostrated. Only with Knowledge will we really enjoy this new Simulator. I hope you do not shy away.Please give me your imput.

PraetorHonoris
08-17-2004, 12:13 PM
I am German and I proudly served in the Luftwaffe.

I am not very interessted in the pacific war, because the Wehrmacht was not involved much.

As an ex Luftwaffe soldier, I prefer flying German planes, although I am well aware that the Luftwaffe pilots in WWII were fighting for Hitler and his actrocities too.

I think the Japanese were allies, the Germans respected due to their great fighting spirit, unlike the Italians, who are still considered as cowards and traitors by most Germans.
There is not much knownledge about the pacific war and the actrocities of the Japanese army aren't common knownledge here in Germany.
I think you can understand that we are more concentrated on our own history.
If I had the choice of flying a Zero or a 190, I'd never choose the Zero.

On the other hand the Japanese cultur is very fascinating to me, because it is so exotic and different to ours.
Moreover I think I can learn much with the help of PF about this war and as a flight sim enthusiast I will fly with in the pacific.

Consequently I am looking foreward for PF, but my heart will always beat for the Luftwaffe.

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg

KaRaYa-X
08-17-2004, 12:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
The other day I was browsing the forum to find out witch planes where going to included in Pacific fighter.I read that in a post from Germany they had a early list of planes that where going to be included. It seem to me that people in Germany are also interested in the Pacific war. I wonder whats your view of this war and what makes it interesting to you. This was a different war than the one in Europe. While both wars influenced each other . They where different wars that were fought differently. Since most European beleive that the real war in World War 11 was in European . Iam facinated on whats your view on the Pacific war. Was it secondary or primary Front. Where the Japanese good allies. Do you think you could have the war won with out them.Do you think they where good pilots and equal to yours in the begning of the war. Do you play the Axis side all the time wishing they had won the war. Perhaps you play the ally side once in while beleiving that was history and Germany needed to lose so a better Germany would come out of it. I hope you do not feel intimidated . Their are no wrong answers. Only what you really feel. I will respect what ever your answer might be.I hope if you are a German who can read English. You will give us your honest answer. Thank you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not from Germany but from Austria (nah, not Australia http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif) which was also part of the 3rd Reich and yes we also speak german in Austria http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

What makes the pacific so interesting to me: Well, PF will be my first WW2 PTO simulation --- I haven't played any carrier ops since USNF/USNF97 and I'm just DYING to take-off/land on a carrier! Taking part in a huge assault on an enemy carrier force will DEFINITELY be HUGE fun! I haven't decided which side I will dedicate on but I think I will start with the Japanese Navy and their pilot friendly Zero for my first carrier qualification trials http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Was it second or primary front: I don't get your question here? Do you mean which front was the more important? Well, I think they were BOTH very important and that neither Japan nor Germany had had any chance of winning the war without the other... If Japan had not started a war against the US then war on the European continent would have ended earlier I guess... why? Because Japan forced Britain and the US to send (almost) all of their naval forces to the Pacific. If Germany for example had been all on its own then the US and Great Britain would have had an even larger strike/fighter force to pit against the Luftwaffe

Quality of pilots: I personally think that the Japanese pilots were ALMOST as talented as their German counterparts... because Japanese flight training was a little bit worse and shorter - on the other hand they (the Japanese) had the chance of "testing" their equipment on a real battlefield in China (just as the Germans did in Spain). However the talent of Japanese fighter pilots degraded at a MUCH faster pace than that of the German as combat losses in the Pacific were much higher because of several reason (which I won't go into detail here)

Why I play axis: Well, I'm Austrian and I somehow stick to my country and culture... MANY Austrians flew in the Luftwaffe and were very successful (you might know of Walter Nowotny: 253kills, Gordon Golob: dunno about kills but he was promoted General der Jagdfliegerei at the very end of the war and helped A LOT in the development of the Me163, the Me262 and the He162 - a very important person both as a leader and as a promoter of the new jet technology, and lots more). Another thing is that I just admire the Luftwaffe and its pilots - call me a Luftwaffe fanboy but hell the Luftwaffe had some of the finest, most honourable and most skilled pilots of all time... the Luftwaffe's fighter jocks always fought with a very strict code of honour in the back of their heads and they showed some amazing examples of chivalry and humanity in combat

That said I have to admit that I'm glad that "we" didn't win the war... actually I NEVER use any skins with a Hakenkreuz - I avoid them as much as possible because I just can't stand the idea of having this thing in my back... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

I hope this might have given you some "insight"

Have a nice day...
S!

--= flying online as JG&lt;52Karaya-X =--

VF-2_John_Banks
08-17-2004, 12:28 PM
I, as a German, am very interested in the War in the Pacific. The interest started back in 1994 when PAW had been released. I got hooked right from the start.

Here in Germany, the war in the Pacific is only a very small sidenote (when you are lucky) in the books of history at school. I guess that is like in the USA, where the War in the Pacific and the American Civil War are the main topics. AFAIK, for most Americans, the War in the Pacific is their "symbol" of WW2. Only the minority really cares about the events in Europe these days. Maybe that's due to the fact, that Japan attacked the US on US soil, so the War against Japan was personal right from the start.

For me, the War in the Pacific is much more "thrilling" and interesting, due to the fact, that it was a new kind of warfare..a modern war. A lone fighterplane could make the difference and large battleships didn't really matter in the big picture anymore. Beside that, the Pacific is a tropical "paradise" and for me as a European much more fascinating. I also love these tropical islands and i also love the color footage from that era as well as the planes on both sides. I've never been interested in German planes or events during WW2, so the war in Europe is somewhat "lame" for me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

To make it short...i can't wait for Pacific Fighters to hit the shelves! I have been waiting for such a game since 1995.

I hope in November this year, i can put into my sig: "Back in the Pacific baby!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ParaB
08-17-2004, 12:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiamiEagle:
It seem to me that people in Germany are also interested in the Pacific war. I wonder whats your view of this war and what makes it interesting to you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You bet I'm interested in the Pacific War. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif One of my first flightsims was "Battlehawks 1942" by Lucasarts from 1988. And I was a BIG fan of 'Aces over the Pacific'.

The war in the Pacific is interesting to me because of its IMO highly interesting course over the years and the vast distances involved. From the attack on Pearl Harbour and the absolute domination of the japanese forces during the first part of the war to the battle of Midway and the subsequent desperate struggle against the ever increasing might of the allied forces.
Guadalcanal,the naval engagements in the 'Ironbottom Sound', the Aussies fighting in the mud and blood of the Kokoda track, the Marines storming the beaches of Tarawa and Iwo Jima, the gigantic battle of Leyte, there are so many interesting battles and engagements that it's really not difficult for me to find it interesting.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Since most European beleive that the real war in World War 11 was in European . Iam facinated on whats your view on the Pacific war. Was it secondary or primary Front.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, as a German I naturally think the most important part of the war was certainly in Europe. Same as a japanese would naturally consider "their" war more important.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Where the Japanese good allies.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think the japanese were considered 'good allies'. Especially their early victories earned them a lot of respect. Although Germany and Japan where quite different allies than for example the USA and GB. There was never much consultation or combined planning, both fought "their" wars independently from each other.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you think you could have the war won with out them.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do not think Germany could've won WW2 with or without Japan.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you think they where good pilots and equal to yours in the begning of the war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, the japanese, especially the navy pilots, were fantastic pilots. Many of them had already gathered experience in the war against China so I would think they were as good as the german ones.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Do you play the Axis side all the time wishing they had won the war.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Holy Cr*p! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I don't know ANYBODY who wished Germany had won the war! I definately am glad that I live in a free, democratic society and not in a brutal dictatorship. When I play the german side I simply do so to fly a plane, which I love. I do not fight for Hitler or Nationalsocialism. I play a computer game.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Perhaps you play the ally side once in while beleiving that was history and Germany needed to lose so a better Germany would come out of it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually I fly soviet, US, or british planes all the time. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I play a computer game and I like diversity. I don't care if I fly a Spitfire hunting Stukas or an X-Wing blasting Tie-fighters. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I hope you do not feel intimidated . Their are no wrong answers. Only what you really feel. I will respect what ever your answer might be.I hope if you are a German who can read English. You will give us your honest answer. Thank you<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're welcome.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
08-17-2004, 03:14 PM
In some ways, everyone, regardless of nationality is going to be interested in the Pacific War because of the historic and flight sim nature of it rather than the nation involved.

Although its certainly nice to play for "your" side regardless of who it is.

Again, this is why I love the concept of melding AEP & PF together. Online and offline, we can jump between them on a whim.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

LEXX_Luthor
08-17-2004, 05:14 PM
I am interested in combining FB and FP for simming China before 1940. Some ops had 50+ twin engine bomber formations escorted and intercepted by as many fighters.

several items for the mixed FBP install...

Flyable Ki~61 = Flyable 1940 He~100D campaign.

Some early Jap/USssian carrier bomber = Flyable Su~2 campaign or even R~10, have not decided which carrier bomber most suitable.

Flyable Yak~1 = Flyable Spit Mk. I (oops, already done that before AEP http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif )

csThor
08-18-2004, 12:03 AM
Well ... I am not interested in the PTO as a conflict. My area of interest is the Luftwaffe and there especially the Eastern Front of 1942/43 - IMO a still rather neglected topic speaking of literature.

I mean I did play "Aces of the Pacific" and "1942 PAW", but it never sparked my interest and my imagination as did "Aces over Europe", "European Air War" or Il-2. I do have a rather broad overview over the events in the PTO but I consider that a simple necessity of common knowledge. I never went into details as I did and do with the Luftwaffe and I must admit that literature - or better good literature - on the PTO is virtually unavailable.

I'm going to buy PF, but that just for the sake of getting further planes for use in FB and for later patches. I mean I want to fly over Murmansk, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________________________

<A HREF="http://www.il2skins.com/?action=list&authoridfilter=csThor" TARGET=_blank>
http://home.arcor.de/csthor/bilder/ubi_sig.jpg </A>

csThor's skins @ Il2skins.com

SUPERAEREO
08-18-2004, 06:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
(...) unlike the Italians, who are still considered as cowards and traitors by most Germans.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Erm... Praetor, is this your opinion or does it come from a nation-wide poll or something..? As an Italian this is not my general experience, but if it was true it would also indicate that most Germans are somewhat racially prejudiced.

Do you think they are?

If you said that the Italian armistice in 1943 was perceived as a betrayal by most Germans at the time, and bearing in mind the level of brainwashing and oppression inflicted on the German population by the III Reich, I would have nothing to object, but if what you say is true now in the year 2004 then I have reason to feel rather worried about the general level of culture and education in the Federal Republic...

So, which one is it..?

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

PraetorHonoris
08-18-2004, 07:26 AM
And I am very worried about your memory...
We spoke about that already.
You have to make a difference between popular oppinions and scientific, academic works.

And yes, in popular oppinion the Iatlians are still considered as cowards.
I think it is not hard to realise why...

but as I said, we discussed that already in depth, so read it again:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=168101334&p=1

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

Obi_Kwiet
08-18-2004, 07:46 AM
I think if a was a German in WW2 I'd fight agianst the Russians but I'd try to avoid the Western front. We (US+Brittion) should have fought Russia back to where it belonged a the end of WW2. Germany wasn't in much of a shape to fight.

SUPERAEREO
08-18-2004, 08:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
And I am very worried about your memory...
We spoke about that already.
You have to make a difference between popular oppinions and scientific, academic works.

And yes, in popular oppinion the Iatlians are still considered as cowards.
I think it is not hard to realise why...

but as I said, we discussed that already in depth, so read it again:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=168101334&p=1

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer _The Forgotten Soldier_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I remember that thread Praetor, but what astonishes me is that, according to you, most Germans would still associate Italians with betrayal and cowardice.

While such an attitude could be more or less understandable in an 80-year old veteran, I cannot help but seeing its survival, after almost 60 years from the end of the war, as a worrying indication of a failure to assimilate the horrors of the past in an objective way, and also of a persistant racist mindset which should no longer exist in 2004.

What I mean is that, if true, it would reflect badly not so much on Italians, but on Germans themselves.

And that's why I hope you are wrong.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

VF-2_John_Banks
08-18-2004, 08:21 AM
Italians are cowards for the Germans? That's the first time ever i hear such nonesense! They were simply a bit more clever than the Krauts in WW2 and went to Allied side.
AFAIK, Italians are very popular in Germany, not only beacause Bella Italia is such a wonderful country but also due to their relaxed mentality.

PraetorHonoris
08-18-2004, 08:29 AM
There are some prejudices, which are mainly reflected in jokes etc and which are nothing more than that: simple, sometimes stupid prejudices.

But I would never perceive that as some kind of "persistant racist mindset"!
I think only a few would seriously generalize a whole people, especially in Germany racist theories have no ground (anymore http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

PraetorHonoris
08-18-2004, 08:31 AM
@ VF-2_John_Banks

Wenn du das zum ersten mal h¶rst, hast du wohl einiges verpasst. Vor allem bei der Bw solltest du oft darauf stoßen.

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

SUPERAEREO
08-18-2004, 08:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
There _are_ some prejudices, which are mainly reflected in jokes etc and which are nothing more than that: simple, sometimes stupid prejudices.

But I would never perceive that as some kind of "persistant racist mindset"!
I think only a few would seriously generalize a whole people, especially in Germany racist theories have no ground (anymore http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am very relieved to read your words, Praetor: I thought you were saying that most Germans still hold such views (which would have clashed with my personal - even if limited - experience), but I am very glad to see that I had misunderstood what you were saying. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thank you.

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

PraetorHonoris
08-18-2004, 08:44 AM
I also told that with the backgound of my personal experience (as you see other people don't share them...)
And I am very sorry if you have misunderstood my words, I will try to express myself more clearly.

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

VF-2_John_Banks
08-18-2004, 10:32 AM
Totaler Quatsch! Ich war beim Bund. Und das rassistisches Gedankengut keine Chance mehr hat, scheint dich ja ziemlich zu st¶ren, oder was sollte dieser traurige Smiley hinter "anymore"?

PraetorHonoris
08-18-2004, 10:42 AM
Nur weil du nicht in der Lage bist, Smilies zu deuten, h¤lst du mich für einen Rassisten?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif
Glücklicherweise sind nicht alle Menschen hier so beschr¤nkt wie du. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg
"The presence of the Tiger reassured everyone. They were like steel fortresses and no Russian tank could equal them" - Guy Sayer The Forgotten Soldier

VF-2_John_Banks
08-18-2004, 11:32 AM
Ich glaub du solltest mal lieber die Bedeutung der Smileys studieren.

ASH at S-MART
08-18-2004, 12:24 PM
WOW! This turned into a flamie thread.. Didnt see that comming! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ASH HOUSEWARES GROOVY (http://www.garnersclassics.com/wavs/army/groovy.wav)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsmovie/ash.jpg

KaRaYa-X
08-18-2004, 12:36 PM
Another thread down the dumps http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

--= flying online as JG&lt;52Karaya-X =--

VF-2_John_Banks
08-18-2004, 12:57 PM
Groovy!

But it's a flame fest in German and the mods don't understand what we are saying hehe.

huggy87
08-18-2004, 01:28 PM
Ich verstehe. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Zum Gluck bin ich kein Mod.

Seriously though, I thought I remembered a thread where the discussion centered on the shame many Italians felt regarding switching sides in 1943. I don't want to feed the flames-- I'm just wondering if I imagined that thread.

For what its worth I can see both sides. The Italians, as a whole, seemed to not be as eager fascists as the Germans. I don't blame them for ditching the Germans when half of their country was occupied by the allies. That being said, the Germans definitely are justified in feeling betrayed by their closest European ally. As superaero said, I seriously doubt those feelings still persist in 2004 by either country.

In hindsight, I have to say the Swiss and Swedes may have been the smartest nations at the time.

Carnage2681
08-18-2004, 01:30 PM
Kommt Jungs, macht mal halblang http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


As an German, i´´m not really interested in the PAW

Ugly American Planes ( IMHO the P38 was the only good looking plane USA send in WW2 ) fighting Japanes Planes nobody knows.

But i like to fly over the sea, and this beautyfull Pacific Islands.

As i was 7 years old i saw Black Sheeps, really looking foward for the Corsair

But i belive that the US Players will start whinig i the Zeros can outturn your early fighers, and so the game will became more Arcade than FB now is.

Can´t wait for something like "The F6F & Corsair" w(h)in the war. I can understand that you like your planes as we german like ours. But every good player should make wins in a realistic plane. Without X-Wing Alliance like .50´s

Back to topic. And i thinck the attack of carriers will be really great. Dive in a Son of a B**** 2nd Class right into hell http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. Use this Plane and you understand why we germans love our Stuka.

By the way, our "B¶hmischer Gefreiter ( B¶mischer Private, Adolf ) don´t like the Japanse. He don´t trust them.

And one sentence to Italy i hear in a radio novel

"Mein Oma sagte, Deutschland hat 2 Verbündete : Japan und Italien. Japan ist weit weg und die Italiener k¶nnen nicht k¤mpfen"


"My Grandmother told me, germany had 2 allies : Japan and Italy. Japan is far away from germany, and the italians could not fight"

In real life my grandfather talk about "Tanks with three gears backward" when he talk about italy in the war ,)

theRealAntEater
08-18-2004, 01:42 PM
Well, normally not but a certain army officer I know got himself into trouble in Italy.
He dined at a roadside restaurant when two guys in italian army shirts came jogging across the road. Maybe influenced by italian wine he shouted after them: "the italians always knew how to run" (rennen konnten die Italiener schon immer).
One of the guys spoke german and turned around, quite angry and it took some diplomacy to smooth this over....

But generally we get along with the italians quite well, I only have had good experiences with Italians, be it in Germany (pizzeria owners, female benetton employees, fellow students with a good wine collection etc) ro in Italy.

geetarman
08-18-2004, 02:02 PM
Carnage - you obviously have a very limited understanding of typical US armchair pilots if you think we're going to complain when a Zero or Oscar out-turns our Wildcats and P-40s. That's laughable.

You probably think the .50s are uber too becuase you've picked up a fanny full of them from the jocks flying those "ugly" US fighters online. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Carnage2681
08-18-2004, 02:14 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by geetarman:
Carnage - you obviously have a very limited understanding of typical US armchair pilots if you think we're going to complain when a Zero or Oscar out-turns our Wildcats and P-40s. [QUOTE]

Maybe, but i can remember some threads as the Zero get into FB. Some people say it is no problem to T&B a Zero in a P40, maybe only if Ben Affleck fly it.


How can i be hit by the "ugly planes" in FB ?

I mean the Wildcat "Family". Do you really think thier looking good ?

I dont really thinck the .50 are "über", but i liked them more in 2.01. Maybe they not über, but MG151/20 is "under"

But i don´t whant to star a .50 / 20mm discussion here

Carnage2681
08-18-2004, 02:15 PM
By the way, what is the meaning of "armchair pilot" ?

Something like "Hobby Pilot" or "Pc Pilot" ?

VF-2_John_Banks
08-18-2004, 03:19 PM
Since when are US planes ugly? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The ugliest planes built the Italians and the Germans with the Russians in a close second position.

theRealAntEater
08-18-2004, 03:19 PM
Lehnstuhlpilot oder Sesselpilot

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Italians aside, the german-japanese relations were very good at the time.
Not only because of similar enemies (anti-comintern pact) but also because japanese history had a lot in common with german.
Both nations reunited in the late 19th century and had a remarkable economic process until 1914.
While the IJN was always heavily british influenced, the army, and especially the administrative and legal system are german influenced.
In fact, the japanese civil law code is almost the same as the german BGB (I study law, and actually there's a lot of exchange on that field with Japan).

Germans and Japanese fought side by side in the China intervention in 1902. And strangely, this respect did not subside even when Japan attacked Germany in 1914. Of course Japan had just waited for a moment to seize more colonies, and since Germany could not defend her asian posessions, Japan became an ally of Britain and occupied them. This went on relatively friendly except for Tsingtao (the "german Hongkong" in North China). There, a series of "firsts" happened. Naval Aviator Günther Plüschow used a Mauser and his Etrich Taube Monoplane (the only german aircraft in Asia!) to shoot down a Japanese Farman Biplane, for the first ever air victory against Japan http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And the only german steam torpedo boat made a night attack and sank a japanese Cruiser with all hands.
After german and austrian marines were able of breaking up serveral assaults with high casualties, Tsingtao had to surrender.
Interestingly enough, the japanese treatment of their german and austrian prisoners was totally different from the brutality of WW2. The soldiers and civilians were treated with great honour and respect and were given almost total liberty in Japan and were free to construct their own breweries, gyms and a lot more in their internment camps.
Concerning second world war, Germans never heard any real things about the course of war until 1944, except for the same propaganda they gave their own people.
On the german newsreel Archive (wochenschau-archiv.de) where you can view german newsreels from 1930 to 1960 you can see serveral features from the japanese front. One covering the occupation of the aleutans, with a mass flyover of H6K Mavis and a Catalina getting shot down by Japanese Flak, second a raid on Darwin, with the cameraman riding a G4M Betty bomber to Australia and back (I've never seen inside footage of a Betty on a mission before).

Diplomatic channels were somewhat better informed, and a number of investigative german journalists had access to high circles of japanese Power. One of them was named Richard Sorge, and he was a soviet Spy. His report that Japan did not plan to attack the USSR might have decided the Battle of Moscow, and maybe the whole war.
Ironically, the german embassy proved to be the best source of information on Japan for the allies. The embassy routinely sent long radio messages to Berlin, covering everything from the Sorge investigation to the Naval Attache's first visit to the Yamato.
The allies must have gotten tons of technical information, intentions and other inside details from intercepted embassy messages of both sides. For example a japanese delegation evaluated the Tiger tank in 1943 and surely sent back a lenghty report which was most likely intercepted by the allies.

In the last year of the war, fanatical fighting of the japanese was often quoted as an example for germans, but concrete measures were more crafted after what the russians had done in 1941.
There were a few instances of suicide pilots, but I am not even sure if the apanese Kamikaze was common knowledge in the german military in 1944.

Generally Japan was too far away to be really worth any consideration for the average german.
After the war, relations have always been quite good, since both nations made a similar recovery (speaking for west germany) and had the same enemy. There's economic competition, but I think there's hardly a country outside Europe with which germany has better relations than Japan.

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Kiautschou_Angriff_Japaner_Englaender_.jpg

German Marines repulse japanese attack.

some WW1 postcards (courtesy of deutsche Schutzgebiete.de (http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de)

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/Torpedoboot_S90.jpg

German steam torpedo boat S 90 sinks the IJN Cruiser Takashio.

http://www.deutsche-schutzgebiete.de/webpages/plueschow1.jpg

Leutnant zur See Günther Plüschow in his plane. The "eagle of Tsingtao" flew air reconaissance, and forced down a japanese plane with his pistol. He escaped from Tsingtao and after an odyssey of over a year and temporary british imprisonment arrived in Germany in 1915.
He later became a famous long distance floatplane pilot and surveyed Fireland from the Air. He died in a takeoff crash with his floatplane on his second Patagonia expedition in 1931.

[This message was edited by theRealAntEater on Wed August 18 2004 at 02:44 PM.]

[This message was edited by theRealAntEater on Wed August 18 2004 at 02:45 PM.]

ASH at S-MART
08-18-2004, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
I think the Japanese were allies, the Germans respected due to their great fighting spirit, unlike the Italians, who are still considered as cowards and traitors by most Germans.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I dont think the I Italians care much about what the loosers of the war think of them.. They should only care what the winners think of them.. And in the US we.. being one of the winners.. think the Italians did the smart and brave thing switching to the Allies side.. Especially after we found out what the Germans were doing during the war in the death camps. And to this day we can still count on the support from the Italians in conflicts around the world.

ASH HOUSEWARES GROOVY (http://www.garnersclassics.com/wavs/army/groovy.wav)
http://surbrook.devermore.net/adaptionsmovie/ash.jpg

SUPERAEREO
08-18-2004, 04:36 PM
Very interesting reading TheRealAntEater.

Actually some suicide units were formed in the Luftwaffe within KG.200.

One was the Sonderstaffel Einhorn, which flew Fw.190's in Northern Italy in 1944-45.
Its pilots were sworn to sink allied ships by diving into them with their planes loaded with bombs (in the event they could not intervene in Normandy), but in the end the staffel was used for other duties, pending the individuation of a worthy target which never came.

Another was 13/KG.200 who should have flown the manned version of the V1:

"The aircraft to be used was the Fi-103 Reichenberg, a manned version of the german V-1 cruise missile, equipped with a small cockpit and flight controls. After two volunteers were killed trying to test fly it, it was successfully flown by Hanna Reitsch, the experienced test pilot who was the first to sign as a volunteer suicide pilot. 24 V-1 cruise missiles were initially modified to manned suicide missiles and over 70 volunteers, mostly young recruits, began training to fly the V-1 as a suicide missile. They were called 'self-sacrificers'. Theoretically they were supposed to try to bail out after aiming their piloted missile to its final dive at the target, but it was clear that the chances of survival were very low. Also, unlike the much faster rocket-powered japanese Okha suicide missile, that was much faster than all allied fighters, the jet-powered V-1 was slow enough to be intercepted.

The suicide squadron of KG 200 was never used in combat because Werner Baumbach and his superiors considered it an unnecessary waste of life and resources, and preferred the Mistel."

(From http://www.2worldwar2.com/kg200.htm )

S!



"The first time I ever saw a jet, I shot it down." - Chuck Yaeger

"Ja, Hunde, wollt ihr denn ewig leben?" - Friedrich der Große

"Timeo Danaos, et dona ferentes" - *neid

Lord-Raptor
08-18-2004, 07:35 PM
It was more of a second front to me, being british i knew more about the europe war.

During the Battle of Britian, Adolf Hitler asked Hermann Goering "What do you need to defeat the British?" to which Goering Replied "A squadron of Spitfires"

Carnage2681
08-18-2004, 11:02 PM
Adolf Galland ask G¶ring for the Spits http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Klarkash
08-19-2004, 10:42 AM
back to the original question...

the idea that the Germans considered the pacific theatre as of little interest actually reflects what alot of my fiiends in the UK thought of the Eastern Front.

To the Allies the war was the western front and the pacific theatre. there is little apprciation of the sheer scale of the russian front