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BigKahuna_GS
06-10-2004, 01:34 AM
S!

Caught this for the first time today on the History channel and it was good. Starts early in Pappy's career then moves on thru to the Flying Tigers days and ultilmately to his death in the late 1980's. Many of the BlackSheep Sqdn. members are interviewed.

I got to see Pappy at Fullerton Airport about 2 years before he passed away. Pappy was not the warmest of fellows, so instead of asking him a flying question I asked him about his wrestling days in college. Pappy's eyes actual lit up for a moment from the many mundane questions he had been asked a million times before. Pappy actually gave some complete sentence answers instead of the abrupt yes and no he was giving everyone else.

To me that was pretty cool and I also got him to sign my copy of his book.
There was about 5 BlackSheep Sqn members there and I ended up talking to them for a couple of hours asking all the questions--that i knew Pappy wouldn't answer. A great air show experience. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, the majority of the Corsairs they show (i'm guessing 80%) have their front antenna mast removed. Just an observation.

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/98027.jpg



____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-10-2004, 01:34 AM
S!

Caught this for the first time today on the History channel and it was good. Starts early in Pappy's career then moves on thru to the Flying Tigers days and ultilmately to his death in the late 1980's. Many of the BlackSheep Sqdn. members are interviewed.

I got to see Pappy at Fullerton Airport about 2 years before he passed away. Pappy was not the warmest of fellows, so instead of asking him a flying question I asked him about his wrestling days in college. Pappy's eyes actual lit up for a moment from the many mundane questions he had been asked a million times before. Pappy actually gave some complete sentence answers instead of the abrupt yes and no he was giving everyone else.

To me that was pretty cool and I also got him to sign my copy of his book.
There was about 5 BlackSheep Sqn members there and I ended up talking to them for a couple of hours asking all the questions--that i knew Pappy wouldn't answer. A great air show experience. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By the way, the majority of the Corsairs they show (i'm guessing 80%) have their front antenna mast removed. Just an observation.

http://www.aviation-history.com/vought/98027.jpg



____

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-10-2004, 04:13 AM
S!


http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/laurier/laurier-pappy.jpg

http://www.militarymuseum.org/Resources/Boyington.jpg

http://www.medalofhonor.com/pilots.jpg

http://www.acepilots.com/lulubelle3.jpg

http://www.medalofhonor.com/blacksheep2.jpg

http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/baileycs/baileycs-ridingshotgun.jpg

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

SKULLS Virga
06-10-2004, 11:30 AM
Cool shots Kahuna - thanks.

http://img68.photobucket.com/albums/v206/SKULLS_Virga/Signature_2.jpg

SWS Timber
06-10-2004, 01:21 PM
Does it talk about the controversy surrounding his final tally? Just finished reading Bruce Gamble's book and, if what he sais is true, its an aweful shame what a raw deal Foss ultimately got.

arcadeace
06-10-2004, 01:53 PM
Yes it does. It was on a month or two ago, and very much worth the watch.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/222_1082457373_222_1082441075_airaces.jpg

ucanfly
06-10-2004, 02:03 PM
Very nice. I too have a signed book by Mr. Boyington (at 1986 Chino Air Show). I felt like I pi$$ed him off when I showed him my credit card to make sure he got the correct spelling. Didn't feel like annoying him any further (duh) so didn't ask any questions that I remember. Back then I was a almost oblivious to true story behind blacksheep All I knew was what I saw on TV series - which was almost pure fiction. What a dunder head I was. THe guy was not looking well but I could tell he would not take any **** from anyone. Glad I met him.

VF-17_Jolly
06-10-2004, 02:57 PM
http://www.celebratefreedomfoundation.org/boyington.jpg
The man himself can`t help thinking he`s about to break the face of the photographer

http://www.skyknights.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jolly.jpg

BigKahuna_GS
06-11-2004, 08:10 PM
S!

__________________________________________________ ______________________
UCanFly---Very nice. I too have a signed book by Mr. Boyington (at 1986 Chino Air Show).
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Chino Air Museum is a great place. I have been there often.

http://www.danford.net/boyingtonavg.jpg
1st Pursuiters (left to right): Tom Croft, George Burgard, Greg Boyington with revolver, Joe Rosbert kneeling, **** Rossi, and Red Probst.

Broad-shouldered, thin-hipped, with the moody face of a Cherokee setting out on the Trail of Tears, Boyington was a trouble-maker. He drank heavily, through nights that ended with the challenge: "I'll wrestle anybody in the crowd!"

http://www.medalofhonor.com/boyngton.gif

Boyington and the AVG

Among his gripes was his combat record. To the end of his life, Boyington insisted that as a Flying Tiger he had destroyed 6 Japanese planes, which together with his Marine Corps victory claims would have made him the leading USMC ace of World War II. The AVG record, for its part, shows Boyington with 3.5 "bonus credits," of which only two were air-to-air kills. In the Chennault Papers at Stanford is a document dated 27 April 1942 which reads:


April 27, 1942
Citation
On February 6, 1942, in company with other members of his squadron, Vice Squadron Leader G. Boyington, AVG, engaged in combat with a number of Japanese pursuit planes near the city of Rangoon, Burma. In the combat which ensued, he personally shot down two enemy fighters in the air. On March 24, 1942, in company with five other pilots of the AVG he attacked the airdrome at Chiengmai, Thailand. As a result of this flight's attack, fifteen enemy planes were burned, and the credit for the attacked [sic] shared equally, giving Vice Squadron Leader Boyington credit for destroying two and one half enemy aircraft. This pilot has destroyed a total of four and one half enemy planes; two of which were destroyed in aerial combat, and two and one half burned on the ground. He is commended on his performance and achievement in combat.
C. L. Chennault, Commanding, AVG
This document shows how sloppy was the AVG record-keeping. In fact, Boyington seems to have been credited with only 1.5 planes destroyed on the ground at Chiang Mai, when Chennault or someone else decided that the credit should be shared equally among all 10 pilots who took part in that unfortunate raid, in which Jack Newkirk was killed and Mac McGarry taken prisoner.



http://www.aviationartcentral.com/images/art/denardo/denardo-salutetothejollyrogers.jpg

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

ucanfly
06-12-2004, 12:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
S!

__________________________________________________ ______________________
UCanFly---Very nice. I too have a signed book by Mr. Boyington (at 1986 Chino Air Show).
__________________________________________________ ______________________

Chino Air Museum is a great place. I have been there often.
...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow that is a coinkydink. I remember how hot it was in that hangar that Pappy was in and that a few guys were coming up and shaking his hand. I wasn't expecting him to be there and wasn't sure it was him till I walked up to the line and saw his name and a stack of his books.

I took a bunch of pictures of a B17 flyby and some others and was lugging a heavy camera bag around (didn't take his picture - duh). Went there on a whim and lucked out. I gotta go there more often.

Just caught tail end of this year's show in the West parking lot and saw all the planes taxiing by. My 3 year old daughter loved it, especially the P-51 demo. I think my brainwashing is working.

VF-3Thunderboy
06-12-2004, 01:15 AM
Man look at the paint job on his corsair! Underarm stains around the cockpit, and other stuff. Never seen that before! Looks like some kind of salt ? corrosion also. Very cool for the Repaint guys.

Foss also flew the crappy WILDCAT! So its more of a bum rap, but he is recognized as the Marine top ace now.

Rudee37
06-12-2004, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-3Thunderboy:
Man look at the paint job on his corsair..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Actually, the photo's you see with Boyington in a specific aircraft were purely for photo ops. Boyington never had his own plane. He flew whatever plane was available on that day.

BigKahuna_GS
06-12-2004, 12:56 PM
S!
__________________________________________________ ________________________
Ucanfly-My 3 year old daughter loved it, especially the P-51 demo. I think my brainwashing is working.
__________________________________________________ ________________________


What a crack up, I use to drag my kids to every Air Show @ El Toro Marine Base right up until they closed the base. I live in Orange County and El Toro was in Irvine, so it was only a 20min drive if that. Great Show every year and I miss it. I have to drive out to Chino or down to Miramar to see an airshow now.

My dad was in the Marine Corp for 30years. He received his flight training at Pensa Cola in 38'-39. Guess who was a flight instructor out there--Boyington.

I took my dad to Chino several years ago for "Hellcat" day. He ran into some of his ol' Corps buddies and had a great time. Many Hellcat aces spoke that day. They fired up a Hellcat, Corsair & Zero for some dogfight demonstrations. My little boy was in awe of it all.


http://www.voicenet.com/~lpadilla/mohgraphics/boyington
GREGORY BOYINGTON (1912-1988) Medal of Honor recipient

Text of Citation:

BOYINGTON, GREGORY

Rank and organization: Major, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Marine Squadron 214. Place and date: Central Solomons area, from 12 September 1943 to 3 January 1944. Entered service at: Washington. Born: 4 December 1912, Coeur D'Alene, Idaho. Other Navy award: Navy Cross. Citation: For extraordinary heroism and valiant devotion to duty as commanding officer of Marine Fighting Squadron 214 in action against enemy Japanese forces in the Central Solomons area from 12 September 1943 to 3 January 1944. Consistently outnumbered throughout successive hazardous flights over heavily defended hostile territory, Maj. Boyington struck at the enemy with daring and courageous persistence, leading his squadron into combat with devastating results to Japanese shipping, shore installations, and aerial forces. Resolute in his efforts to inflict crippling damage on the enemy, Maj. Boyington led a formation of 24 fighters over Kahili on 17 October and, persistently circling the airdrome where 60 hostile aircraft were grounded, boldly challenged the Japanese to send up planes. Under his brilliant command, our fighters shot down 20 enemy craft in the ensuing action without the loss of a single ship. A superb airman and determined fighter against overwhelming odds, Maj. Boyington personally destroyed 26 of the many Japanese planes shot down by his squadron and, by his forceful leadership, developed the combat readiness in his command which was a distinctive factor in the Allied aerial achievements in this vitally strategic area.


http://www.bullterrierdallas.com/pmaewest.jpg
http://www.bullterrierdallas.com/ppilots.jpg


Pappy Boyington's Claims

The following article, written by Bernard Baeza, appeared in the French magazine Le Fana de l'Aviation, March-June 1992. It was posted to rec.aviation.military by Emmanuel Gustin. I've cut the material relating to Boyington's U.S. Marine Corps service. Material in brackets is mine.

"Pappy" Boyington, Legende et Realite

Boyington's claims in Burma as a member of the AVG. This is a rather complicated affair. He claimed 6 kills; the AVG documents credit him with 4.5. The Chinese government payed him for 3.5 kills.... In addition, the paperwork made at the time seems to be rather sloppy, with contradictions between RAF documents, AVG documents, and diaries of AVG members. There was a war going on, after all...
29/1/1942


Unit & Type No. Aircraft Kills Claimed Losses
AVG P-40 12 12 1
RAF Hurricane 6 2 0
77 Sentai Ki.27 20 6 4

The Japanese documents admit four losses, the aircraft of Kojima, Yoshida, Kanda, and Nagishima. The wreck of Nagashima's aircraft proved that it had been hit by RAF ammunition. [The AVG used RAF ammo in some planes, depending on where the guns had been acquired.] Boyington's claim that he shot down 2 aircraft was not confirmed by the AVG.
6/2/1942


Unit & Type No. Aircraft Kills Claimed Losses
AVG P-40 6 9 0
RAF Hurricane 6 3 0
50 & 77 Sentai Ki.27 25 5 (+6) 1

Of the 3 claimed AVG kills, two were attributed to Boyington.
7/2/1942
On this day, or the next day (his diary is unclear) Boyington claimed to have shot down a lonely Ki.27. However, records of the AVG mention no combat on this day. They did fly, however, and it is possible that Boyington encountered a Japanese aircraft on an air patrol.


25/2/1942
There were two fights on this day. Boyington claimed three kills, but according to AVG records he did not encounter the enemy during the first fight. Obviously, the Japanese set a new standard for overclaiming at this occasion, claiming to have shot down more allied aircraft than were actually present.


Unit & Type No. Aircraft Kills Claimed Losses
AVG P-40 6 4 0
RAF Hurricane 6 1 0
50 & 77 Sentai Ki.27 44 14 (+7) 0
47 Chutai Ki.44 3 2 0

AVG P-40 10 or 12 19 or 22 (+1) 1 or 2
RAF Hurricane 12 or 10 6 or 2 (+1) 0 or 1
50 & 77 Sentai Ki.27 ? 1 (+2) 2
47 Chutai Ki.44 3 0 0
8 Sentai Ki.48 12 0 0

The records regarding the second fight don't agree. There are three allied reports, which tend to differ about the number of aircraft involved and the number of kills claimed. No source attributes any kills to Boyington this day, but one of them credits two unknown pilots each with a kill. It is also possible that Boyington claimed to have shot down one or more of the Ki.44s, which were attacked on this day, but not mentioned at all by the AVG and RAF documents...

24/3/42
There was no air combat on this day, but the P-40s of the AVG strafed Japanese bases in Thailand. It was estimated that 15 aircraft had been destroyed on the ground in Chian-Mai. The six pilots involved were each credited with 2.5 kills. (To count in air-to-ground destruction of aircraft is in itself not unusual. The USAAF did the same in Europe. Strafing attacks are highly dangerous.) The Chinese governement payed Boyington for 1.5 kills, however. The Japanese actually lost 3 aircraft, and 10 were damaged.
[Boyington was credited with 1.5 vics at Chiang Mai because it was determined that the four pilots who strafed the wrong town should also share in the bonus money, as was often done in the case where a pilot was lost, as Jack Newkirk was killed in this unfortunate diversion -- Dan Ford]


http://www.freewebs.com/blacksheepone/pappyrealcorsair.jpg

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"

BigKahuna_GS
06-12-2004, 02:02 PM
http://hstrial-streaster.homestead.com/files/joe_foss.jpg
Joe Foss, recipient of the Congressional Medal of Honor "for outstanding heroism and courage."

Joe Foss was an incredible fighter pilot and a great man. He also and earned his kills while flying the lowly Wildcat. Wildcat pilots had a saying "If you see a Zero and your alone in a Wildcat-run away your outnumbered"
Joe Foss was a Medal of Honor recipient.


Medal of Honor Citation:

For outstanding heroism and courage above and beyond the call of duty as executive officer of Marine Fighting Squadron 121, 1st Marine Aircraft Wing, at Guadalcanal. Engaging in almost daily combat with the enemy from 9 October to 19 November 1942, Capt. Foss personally shot down 23 Japanese planes and damaged others so severely that their destruction was extremely probable. In addition, during this period, he successfully led a large number of escort missions, skillfully covering reconnaissance, bombing, and photographic planes as well as surface craft. On 15 January 1943, he added 3 more enemy planes to his already brilliant successes for a record of aerial combat achievement unsurpassed in this war. Boldly searching out an approaching enemy force on 25 January, Capt. Foss led his 8 F-4F Marine planes and 4 Army P-38's into action and, undaunted by tremendously superior numbers, intercepted and struck with such force that 4 Japanese fighters were shot down and the bombers were turned back without releasing a single bomb. His remarkable flying skill, inspiring leadership, and indomitable fighting spirit were distinctive factors in the defense of strategic American positions on Guadalcanal.

1982-1991 Campus Crusade for Christ International Chairman "Here's Life World"
1988-1990 President, National Rifle Association
1972-1978 Director of Public Affairs, Royal Dutch Airlines
1967-1974 Star of weekly syndicated television show,
"The Outdoorsman -- Joe Foss"
1962-1964 Host, ABC weekly television show,
"American Sportsman"
1959-1966 Commissioner, American Football League
1954-1958 Governor, South Dakota
1948-1953 Representative, South Dakota House of Representatives


2001 Founded The JOE FOSS Institute with his wife Donna
"didi" Foss


http://hstrial-streaster.homestead.com/files/LIFE_mag_.jpg

CCJ: What do you define as the most important things a fighter pilot must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?

Robert S. Johnson :
It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities.
Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.

In "Fighter Aces," aviation historians Raymond Tolliver
and Trevor Constable compared Johnson's record with that of two German aces.
Werner Molders was the first ace to score 100 aerial victories and Erich Hartmann is the top scoring ace of all time with 352.

The authors noted that
Johnson "emerges impressively from this comparison." He downed 28 planes in 91 sorties, while Molders took 142 sorties to do the same, and Hartmann, 194.
________


http://www.warplaneswarehouse.com/planes_lg/MS1AOO_LG.jpg

"Angels of Okinawa"