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View Full Version : Creeper strategy all-powerful and completely overpowered



muhrbrand
10-02-2015, 11:04 AM
There's a massive ballance issue in which you can abuse the AI in the early creeping-game.

Say you have a modestly powerful stack of core melee troops like skeletons, troglodytes etc. and you attack a neutral stack.

You split out 6 single troops and keep the rest in one big stack.

Move all your troops forward, but outside the AI's move-range and let the AI advance

Now attack the AI stacks one by one - either with your powerstack if you can clean it up or with a single-stack first to take the retaltion before the kill.

The problem is, that the AI will ALWAYS go for your single stack troops. leaving your big stack untouched.

It works against ranged troops as well as melee troops.

My guess would be, that the AI picks targets based heavily on wheather or not it can kill it competely. But - if you are facing 150 crossbowmen, they should not go for the single stack kill. They waste their shot completely

The end-result is that level heroic becomes easier in stead of harder, as you can level up in ridiculous amounts on the big neutral stacks.

A sollution would be changing tre AI's business Logic to include an argument discarding targets where more than 50% of the damage done is wasted (unless of course it is the only possible target).

thorus1974
10-03-2015, 02:25 PM
Right on! And it shouldnt really be that hard to fix. Please fix it, dont make it second or third priority

nllsq
10-03-2015, 04:42 PM
Even that strategy doesn't help in RMG maps where Champion creatures guard Ore mines on Day 1. The AI needs to be fix as you suggest and at the same time the RMG needs a lot of work too.

muhrbrand
10-03-2015, 06:42 PM
Even that strategy doesn't help in RMG maps where Champion creatures guard Ore mines on Day 1. The AI needs to be fix as you suggest and at the same time the RMG needs a lot of work too.

The RMG is necessary for the game's long term playability. That's to say I completely agree with you that it needs work so that the first wood and ore mines are realistic goals in week one or two. Right now though, we have the pre-made maps which appear to be pretty balanced.

But exploits like the one i described above make them unplayable unless you introduce your own limits.

I've had to make a 'house rule' with my regular HOMM opponent prohibiting stack splitting.

Stupid? Yeah I know, but we WANT to play what could be a really great game if these damn bugs are erradicated.

I'm very much looking forward to seeing the release notes for the promised patch.

ArqaneX
10-03-2015, 07:56 PM
That exploit has been there for many Heroes games. Actually, the fairly hefty leadership penalty was a good fix for the general strategy. With -20 leadership for every stack you lose, you can pretty quickly hit the -50 cap if they take out 3 or more wimpy stacks. It's not perfect, especially since certain troops don't care about morale, but I think they struck a good balance on the fodder vs. uber stack groups (finally).

The AI in general does need some serious work, though. It's bad enough in general, but I put one battle on auto combat because I didn't mean to fight one battle. It preceded to do really stupid, weird things. The AI had a fast melee unit who refused to move forward against archers... just sat there getting picked off. Either moved randomly or defended. It had my hero casting useless spells, over and over, often on the same target.

But I wouldn't worry too much about the fodder stack tactic. There's only so many scenarios where it's useful, and they even put in a new skill (9 stacks) to make it even more of an actual strategy.

Mescalamba2015
10-03-2015, 09:24 PM
Thats not really exploit, just something thats in game since HoMaM 3 at least (probably even in 2).

Also those single-creature stacks are usable for other things, unless enemy has unlimited retaliations its perfect way to "drain" his defense and get with very little loss from most battles. Works even versus humans. :D

thorus1974
10-03-2015, 10:56 PM
I dont mind taking the retaliation away strategy, thats a common heroes thing. But the problem is: 200 Archers that could easily take out 90 troglodytes or so in one shot goes for 1 unit stack killing, we dont want that stupid AI we want a challenge. Ohh the moral penalty.... except its not even close to be comparreble to that the AI is not doing the max amount of damage or harm. Plus UNDEAD dont care for moral penalties.

Fyrestorme
10-04-2015, 03:28 AM
There's a massive ballance issue in which you can abuse the AI in the early creeping-game.

Say you have a modestly powerful stack of core melee troops like skeletons, troglodytes etc. and you attack a neutral stack.

You split out 6 single troops and keep the rest in one big stack.

Move all your troops forward, but outside the AI's move-range and let the AI advance

Now attack the AI stacks one by one - either with your powerstack if you can clean it up or with a single-stack first to take the retaltion before the kill.

The problem is, that the AI will ALWAYS go for your single stack troops. leaving your big stack untouched.

It works against ranged troops as well as melee troops.

My guess would be, that the AI picks targets based heavily on wheather or not it can kill it competely. But - if you are facing 150 crossbowmen, they should not go for the single stack kill. They waste their shot completely

The end-result is that level heroic becomes easier in stead of harder, as you can level up in ridiculous amounts on the big neutral stacks.

A sollution would be changing tre AI's business Logic to include an argument discarding targets where more than 50% of the damage done is wasted (unless of course it is the only possible target).

but you will lose -40 leadership easily with this method.. are you only doing this with necromancer or something? - or hero with insane high leadership value?