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McCallaway
06-02-2004, 02:04 AM
Now in Il-2, when ships are under attack, they fire back but do not maneuver to avoid bombs or shells. But in every report I read of Pacific naval battles, the ships always do violent maneuvers, complete circles, sometimes even crashing into each other while trying to avoid an attack.

So I was wondering, will the ship AI be enhanced to be closer to such behavior ? I don't know how hard it is to do that but it surely would be a great addition.

Here are examples of what I mean :

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g80000/g88029.jpg

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g230000/g238025.jpg


So, what do you think ?

[This message was edited by McCallaway on Thu June 03 2004 at 12:44 AM.]

McCallaway
06-02-2004, 02:04 AM
Now in Il-2, when ships are under attack, they fire back but do not maneuver to avoid bombs or shells. But in every report I read of Pacific naval battles, the ships always do violent maneuvers, complete circles, sometimes even crashing into each other while trying to avoid an attack.

So I was wondering, will the ship AI be enhanced to be closer to such behavior ? I don't know how hard it is to do that but it surely would be a great addition.

Here are examples of what I mean :

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g80000/g88029.jpg

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g230000/g238025.jpg


So, what do you think ?

[This message was edited by McCallaway on Thu June 03 2004 at 12:44 AM.]

Blutarski2004
06-02-2004, 03:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by McCallaway:
Now in Il-2, when ships are under attack, they fire back but do not maneuver to avoid bombs or shells. But in every report I read of Pacific naval battles, the ships always do violent maneuvers, complete circles, sometimes even crashing into each other while trying to avoid an attack.

So I was wondering, will the ship AI be enhanced to be closer to such behavior ? I don't know how hard it is to do that but it surely would be a great addition.

Here are examples of what I mean :

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g80000/g88029.jpg

http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g230000/g238025.jpg


So, what do you think ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Warships and warship formations would also turn their broadsides to the direction of attack in to bring the maximum number of AA guns to bear upon their attackers.

BLUTARSKI

BfHeFwMe
06-03-2004, 04:49 PM
I thought it was because the most possible damage done in a naval air attack is always with stem to stern type hits?

RxMan
06-03-2004, 05:06 PM
Stem to stern attack is best for bombers, but a broadside is definitely best for torpedo attack.

Tater-SW-
06-03-2004, 05:41 PM
I think the toughest thing will be collisions. If all the ships started turning, they'd probably collide. The best might be to use the ideas of either grouping units in the FMB, or small, medium and large set forces (small might be a DD group, medium a CA group with DDs, and large might be a set piece CBG). They'd have some kind of coordinated evasive turns.

tater

McCallaway
06-04-2004, 02:03 AM
I know it may not be possible to do it, but it seems that the large white trails left by the ships turning everywhere are a part of what a Pacific pilot saw at this time. I would rate this feature higher than the pitching of the ships, and it seems to be easier to do also (just an IT guy guess).

Anyway, it's just some ideas. Hopefully it will be useful to the devs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Ankanor
06-04-2004, 02:40 AM
circling is best against divers, while against torpedo bombers everything depends on the actual position of the aircraft, presence of other torpedoes. you could read this (http://www.cv6.org/ship/logs/action19420824.htm#action) and this (http://www.cv6.org/ship/logs/maneuvers-19421026.htm) for real life tactics against Japanese attack planes

and to add, Blutarski, I don't think that any ship commander would advise turning the side of the ship so that the torpedo bombers have a perfect target just for the sake of the Additional flak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif. Simple calculation:
stem/stern to attackers and half of the AAA
compared to:
broad side(about 8 times broader than the stem/stern)and all the Flak.

O, how I want to hold you,
To feel your breath
And hear your laughter in my ears.
To look into your eyes
And see myself in there.
Caress you with my lips.
To hold your hands in mine
And find the hidden smile in your dimple
That makes you irresistible
And stops the breathing in my chest.
To be with you when you are weeping,
To wipe away the tears and take away the sorrow.
To watch you while you are sleeping
Like there is no tomorrow.

And with a tender kiss to wake you up.

Essen,23.02.2004 20:53

Blutarski2004
06-04-2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ankanor:
and to add, Blutarski, I don't think that any ship commander would advise turning the side of the ship so that the torpedo bombers have a perfect target just for the sake of the Additional flak http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif. Simple calculation:
stem/stern to attackers and half of the AAA
compared to:
broad side(about 8 times broader than the stem/stern)and all the Flak.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't disagree with you. I think we are simply discussing different pieces of the same puzzle, and I aplogize for being insufficiently precise in my previous comment.

A typical WW2 USN task force, disposed for defense against aerial attack, was organized (as you probably already know) into successive concentric rings, with the highest value ship(s) in the center surrounded by escorting vessels. Since the great majority of attacking a/c would seek out highest value targets, the escorting ships were typically free to maneuver in a way best suited to bring the maximum possible AA fire against the attack axis. AA open-fire range with 5/38 was about 12,000 yards. An opposing torpedo plane, intent upon attacking that high value CV in the center of the formation would probably have to fly through 15,000 or 20,000 yds of assorted AA fire from the surrounding ring(s) escort ships before reaching its torpedo launch point (normally &lt; 1000 yds).

As far as collision dangers were concerned, it was of course always a possibility. But the minimum interval between ships in a task force formation was about 2,000 yds and (IIRC) the interval between rings something like 4,000 yds (I must check that figure). Since even a CV or BB had a tactical turning diameter of not much more than 1000 yds, it is evident that plenty of sea room was allowed within the formation for evasive maneuver by individual ships.

BLUTARSKI

Tater-SW-
06-04-2004, 10:58 AM
blutarski, i realize that the spacing allowed for evasive action, but that's why grouping in the FMB, or premade groups of ships makes sense. It saves the mission builder from having to space all the ships out and watch all the waypoint times so that it isn't a problem. If the ships in the lead were to evade in a circle, for example, the following ships might then collide with them since they have no clue that only the ships in front are driving in circles... see what I mean?

Basically if they had AI evasion, and an attack came from the bow, the lead ships in the TF would start to shoot and evade first, then the ships farther to the rear. This would slow them up and close the radius of the circle in the front of the TF. After a couple times, the TF would look like concentric circles (or elipses) with the center moved forward in the TF. Collisions ensue.

tater

Blutarski2004
06-04-2004, 11:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
blutarski, i realize that the spacing allowed for evasive action, but that's why grouping in the FMB, or premade groups of ships makes sense. It saves the mission builder from having to space all the ships out and watch all the waypoint times so that it isn't a problem. If the ships in the lead were to evade in a circle, for example, the following ships might then collide with them since they have no clue that only the ships in front are driving in circles... see what I mean?

Basically if they had AI evasion, and an attack came from the bow, the lead ships in the TF would start to shoot and evade first, then the ships farther to the rear. This would slow them up and close the radius of the circle in the front of the TF. After a couple times, the TF would look like concentric circles (or elipses) with the center moved forward in the TF. Collisions ensue.

tater<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


..... It's a pretty complex issue.

BLUTARSKI

Zeus-cat
06-06-2004, 12:46 PM
I am the guy working on the IL-2T campaign. Sorry, but it is still two weeks away (LOL).

I have built missions where the ships under attack use evasive maneuvers to avoid being hit. Put more than 2 or 3 ships in a group and this becomes very difficult. I eventually figured out the best way was to do this:

1) Place all the ships you want to be in the convoy on the map, but set only 2 waypoints for each ship (you must set at least 2 waypoints for any moving object or the game will not save).

2) Select one ship and set up a pattern of turns. Keep in mind that you will repeat this pattern 10 or 20 times.

3) Exit the game and open the mission files in Notepad.

4) Copy the coordinates of the ships to an Excel spreadsheet.

5) Figure out how many waypoints you want to be in you r pattern. I usually selected between 6 to 8 points.

6) Subtract one set of coordinates from the previous one (and you never thought you would use Geometry once you got out of school!).

7) Do step 5 for all points in your pattern.

8) Use Excel formulas to recreate the pattern.

9) Remember that when one pattern ends, the next one begins.

10) Create the pattern as many times as you want.

11) Do the same for all of the other ships. remember to change the starting coordintes to match the coordinates established in step 1.

12) Copy all of this info back to the Notepad file.

13) Run the mission.

This sound complicated, but if you know geometry this is very easy.

Let me know if you really want to do this, but can't do the the math. I still have the spreadsheet and would be willing to share it.

Zeus-cat

Tater-SW-
06-06-2004, 02:12 PM
Great zeus-cat, that will certainly work under many circumstances we're likely to see in game.

It will not work, however, in situations where you are not sure that enemy planes will find the ships, or if you are unsure when they will find the ships. (say a mission where player scout bombers are looking for the enemy)

This is a situation where the AI needs to be reactive. On the plus side, if objects could be grouped, they could all evade using the method you suggest---only the game would generate the waypoints on the fly for the slowest ship in a standard evasive pattern then offset them as you suggest.

tater

Flydutch
06-09-2004, 07:23 AM
Ship formations could start zig-zag patern were all ships follow the same move.

This could be triggerd when enemy a/c are within visual range maybe?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Great zeus-cat, that will certainly work under many circumstances we're likely to see in game.

It will not work, however, in situations where you are not sure that enemy planes will find the ships, or if you are unsure _when_ they will find the ships. (say a mission where player scout bombers are looking for the enemy)

This is a situation where the AI needs to be reactive. On the plus side, if objects could be grouped, they could all evade using the method you suggest---only the game would generate the waypoints on the fly for the slowest ship in a standard evasive pattern then offset them as you suggest.

tater<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Flydutch
06-09-2004, 07:31 AM
Pitching decks are a must for realitic deck landings!

this is only essencely needed for the Carriers of course

maybe pitch the deck only when with in actual landing aproach from a distance in reality the pitch wouldn't be seen or needed to be modeled

altough i would love to see banking warships in a rough sea!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flydutch:
Ship formations could start zig-zag patern were all ships follow the same move.

This could be triggerd when enemy a/c are within visual range maybe?

Capzising ships would be a nice 'eyecandy' addition Capzising hapened usual to shiphs beeing hit midship under the water line.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
Great zeus-cat, that will certainly work under many circumstances we're likely to see in game.

It will not work, however, in situations where you are not sure that enemy planes will find the ships, or if you are unsure _when_ they will find the ships. (say a mission where player scout bombers are looking for the enemy)

This is a situation where the AI needs to be reactive. On the plus side, if objects could be grouped, they could all evade using the method you suggest---only the game would generate the waypoints on the fly for the slowest ship in a standard evasive pattern then offset them as you suggest.

tater<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

owlwatcher
06-09-2004, 07:54 PM
Have to try the spread sheet method.

Have a Lennigrad map with 32 tankers and frighters 5 colunms zig-zaging. Some escorts
He-111 with unlimted ammo
Did it one waypoint at a time. All for naught.
By sinking the lead ship of a colunm .You can sink the whole column.They rear end each other.

Simple collsion avoidance would be better. Add torpedos into the collsion avoidance perk.

Being able to add AAA to a moving tanker or frieghter.

Being able to group ships with formation space and position would be real nice for FMB. Also add a better AAA effect.

heywooood
06-09-2004, 08:06 PM
Zeusscat - you have a certain genius.

What a method. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
Talk about working around a problem.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/3tbm_avenger.jpg
Goin'fishin'

Zeus-cat
06-09-2004, 08:52 PM
owlwatcher,

Be careful with the formatting if you do this in a spreadsheet. You have to keep the proper formatting on each line.

I suggest you try it with a small number of ships to make sure it works the way you want.

I set up my convoys so that I have a lead ship, usually a destroyer. The next ship is a freighter and is behind the destroyer 300-500m and off to the right at a 45 degree angle. The next ship is off to the left and is twice as far from the destroyer. I add a few more ships to make a group of about 5 or 6. You could then add more groups to give you as many ships as you want. I try to make sure no ship in a group crosses the same path as any other ship in the group. This makes sure they won't collide if one gets sunk.

If I have more than one group, ship one of each group travels the same path (or close to it) as the same ship as in the first group. I seperate them by 3 or 4 minutes. This allows one ship to sink and the one behind it won't hit it. You can play with ship spacing by playing with the speed. The slower the ships travel, the more time you have before a ship would cross the path of one in front of it.

Zeus-cat

owlwatcher
06-09-2004, 09:44 PM
Setting up convoy.
Like the DDs doing circles at the corners of the convoys. Separate from the freighters . Oh the freighters and tankers will go faster if you input a higher speed.
Just made five columns, with tankers in the center.
I Have the ships alittle to close togther but spaced the same distanced apart. It was suppose be PQ17.
Been on the back burner. Had not added all the escorts.Wasted to much time with the He-111.

In FMB 4-5 ships is the most that can be worked at one time.