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darkhorizon11
07-28-2004, 11:35 AM
With the addon of the great navys of Japan, Austrailia, Holland, Great Britain, and America. Has anyone heard or thought of some add-ons for the German Navy as well? The Tirpitz wasn't the only great battleship theres also the Gneisnau, Bismark, Prince Eugen, Scharnhorst etc? They even had a carrier called the Graf Zepplin under construction in France. Whatdaya tink??????? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

darkhorizon11
07-28-2004, 11:35 AM
With the addon of the great navys of Japan, Austrailia, Holland, Great Britain, and America. Has anyone heard or thought of some add-ons for the German Navy as well? The Tirpitz wasn't the only great battleship theres also the Gneisnau, Bismark, Prince Eugen, Scharnhorst etc? They even had a carrier called the Graf Zepplin under construction in France. Whatdaya tink??????? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

FW-Raptor
07-28-2004, 12:17 PM
id love to see the bismark

Yellonet
07-28-2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
With the addon of the great navys of Japan, Austrailia, Holland, Great Britain, and America. Has anyone heard or thought of some add-ons for the German Navy as well? The Tirpitz wasn't the only great battleship theres also the Gneisnau, Bismark, Prince Eugen, Scharnhorst etc? They even had a carrier called the Graf Zepplin under construction in France. Whatdaya tink??????? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well adding the Graf Zeppelin isn't any more crazy than some other ideas i've seen in here, would go well with the other "what-if's" even though personally I would like to see prioritizing of the "historical" stuff http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


- Yellonet

VF-17_Jolly
07-28-2004, 01:08 PM
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87c-2.jpg
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87c-1.jpg

would be fun to fly but a Navelised 109 would be scary.. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.skyknights.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jolly.jpg

ShadowHawk__
07-28-2004, 01:50 PM
Wasn't there a carrier based 109 design? I can't remember the designation...

Edit: Never mind, looked it up, the 109T it was called. Was specifically being designed for the Graf Zeppelin.
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zuiho
07-28-2004, 02:20 PM
The carrier based stuka design was called Junkers Ju. 87 C.

VF-17_Jolly
07-28-2004, 02:45 PM
109T
Carrier based version of the Bf 109E (the "T" stood for "Tr├┬Ąger", carrier in German) and was intended to serve on board the Graf Zeppelin. When the building of the ship was abandoned, the planes were assigned to the Luftwaffe and were employed in land-based squadrons

http://www.sepsy.de/Luftwaffe-jpg-Planes/mebftrag1a.JPG

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Hoarmurath
07-28-2004, 03:14 PM
the Bismarck was a sister ship of the Tirpitz, almost identical.

A pocket battleship, like the graff spee, and a heavy cruiser, like the Prinz eugen, could be cool...

The Graf Zeppelin is a "what if", so it should not be high on priority lists...

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VVS-Manuc
07-28-2004, 03:14 PM
there was also a torpedo bomber amd multirole aircraft for the "Graf Zeppelin" carrier, the Fieseler Fi 167 (20 build)

http://www.simviation.com/pageimages/fi167_2.jpg

Latico
07-28-2004, 04:08 PM
Simce the Graf Zep was never finished it seems that unless Dev's can get their hands on the blueprints (if the still exist) it would be very difficult to model.

Freycinet
07-28-2004, 04:34 PM
BTW, it's "Kriegsmarine", not Kreigsmarine...

darkhorizon11
07-28-2004, 04:45 PM
Okay sorry about my spelling I'll get better I'm taking German this fall.

Yeah I'm not saying all work on historical ships should be dropped until these ships are completed its just an idea.

Speaking of which, were the Tirpitz, Bismarck, Gneisnau, Scharnhorst and Prince Eugen all of the same class? I'm pretty sure they were all very similiar? Were there any other German battleships of this massive class of ships I've missed???

PraetorHonoris
07-28-2004, 05:31 PM
@ Darkhorizon11

the few big ships, the Kriegsmarine had....

"Bismarck"-Class (battleship), 50000ts:
- "Bismarck"
- "Tirpitz"

"Scharnhorst"-Class (battle cruiser), 38000ts:
- "Scharnhorst"
- "Gneisenau"

"Prinz Eugen" (heavy cruiser), 19000ts:
- "Prinz Eugen"

"Admiral Hipper" (cruiser), 18000ts :
- "Admiral Hipper"
- "Bl├╝cher"

"Deutschland"-Class (Panzerschiff/pocket battleship), 11000ts:
- "Deutschland", later "L├╝tzow"
- "Admiral Scheer"
- "Admiral Graf Spee"

As you can see, the "Prinz Eugen" e.g. is much smaller than the "Bismarck".

But none of these ships makes sense for PTO, maybe some long range U-Boats like Typ VII.

EDIT: OK, basicly the "Prinz Eugen" belongs to the "Admiral Hipper"-Class, as it is just a little bit bigger and additionally armed with torpedos.

http://img15.exs.cx/img15/8182/siglan1.jpg

[This message was edited by PraetorHonoris on Wed July 28 2004 at 04:50 PM.]

Hoarmurath
07-28-2004, 05:39 PM
no, no, not at all

Bismarck, Tirpitz, same class, battleships, armed with 8 380mm main guns

Graf Spee, pocket battleship armed with 6 280mm main guns (Deutschland class)

Gneisenau, battle cruiser, armed with 9 280mm main guns (Scharnorst same class)

Prinz Eugen, heavy cruiser, armed with 8 203mm main guns (Admiral Hipper, Blucher same class)

These are very different classes... in terms of armament, of speed, and of armor....

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Hoarmurath
07-28-2004, 05:45 PM
if you're interested in kriegsmarine, i suggest you have a look here :

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/index.html

very good site...

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SkyChimp
07-28-2004, 06:05 PM
I'd like to see the German carrier. But not at the expense of more important ships. But I'd certainly have no objection to it being added. I'd love to bomb it.

Regards,
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ShadowHawk__
07-28-2004, 10:50 PM
What was the fate of the Graf Zeppelin anyhow? Why was it scrapped?

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Hoarmurath
07-28-2004, 11:22 PM
The unacheved Graf Zeppelin was sent to russia, where it was sunk with artillery tests.

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Tooz_69GIAP
07-29-2004, 03:27 AM
Having the Graf Zeppelin in game would rock so much, but it wasn't even finished, and never sailed in combat.

You go back to the aircraft which are in the same like the BI-1, I-185, 109Z, the P-80, Go-229, etc, which either saw limited duty, or didn't reach production, or didn't fly, or whatever. This is perhaps the limit to where we should go with this "what if" fascination as a carrier is something entirely different to an aircraft.

But you never know. If someone found enough details on it, and modelled, why shouldn't it be included once PF is out, and carriers are implemented into the game??

But I do think it would be cool to have some german warships modelled like the Graf Spee, the Scharnhorst, and maybe one or two others.

whit ye looking at, ya big jessie?!?!

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k5054
07-29-2004, 09:28 AM
The problem with most Kriegsmarine surface units is that we don't have maps for the harbours and fjords they spent most of their war anchored in.
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Fennec_P
07-29-2004, 10:14 AM
For BoB I hope to model at least some of those ships. I've modelled 2 for FB already (Tirpitz and one other), so it wouldn't be hard to redo them for BoB.

It might be a little more fun to attack the Bismark than the Tirpitz; it would not kill your FPS as much.

Wouldn't it be cool to be able to make some what-if scenarios surrounding the Battle of the Denmark Strait? Like take off from the Ark Royal and try to sink the Bismarck, or fly a Luftwaffe bomber against the British fleet. Maybe I can convince Gibbage to make a PBY for BoB, so you could take off from the Tirpitz in an Arado and duel it, like happened IRL.

That would kick ***.

Tater-SW-
07-29-2004, 10:26 AM
The KM wasn't a first rate surface force, only a first rate sub force. The CV they were working on would have been a waste of crew. without a good escort screen, it would have been terribly vulnerable. Putting to sea once and surviving would have been an achievement, RTBs and re-sorties would have been unlikely at best.

Still, would be cool to see any ships, as long as they aren;t at the expense of targets, er, ships for the PTO.

tater

darkhorizon11
07-29-2004, 11:39 AM
Yeah the possibilities are endless. It was just an idea.

So Fennec I see your the dude who made the Tirpitz and which other?

Muchas gracias amigo its quite the Battleship.
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Fennec_P
07-29-2004, 01:11 PM
One in PF, I can't say.

Freycinet
07-29-2004, 05:04 PM
Channel Dash...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

RAF74_Buzzsaw
07-29-2004, 08:54 PM
Salute

The German ships could be used on the new Murmansk map.

We also need British Battleships and others:

King George V class Battleship

Renown class BattleCruiser

Exeter class Heavy Cruiser

Etc.

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
11-11-2004, 03:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
One in PF, I can't say. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i like the tirpitz :-) nice work realy :-)
can we convince you to do a Graf Zeppelin ?
http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/25.gif but the problem is to get some good blueprints for this ship :-(
haven't seen any http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

EDIT:
http://www.luftarchiv.info/gerat/1.gif
http://www.luftarchiv.info/gerat/2.gif
http://www.luftarchiv.info/gerat/3.gif

TPN_Cephas
11-11-2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-17_Jolly:
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87c-2.jpg
http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/images/ju87c-1.jpg

would be fun to fly but a Navelised 109 would be scary.. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.skyknights.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/jolly.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I actually tried landing the Stuka on a carrier the other day, I was able to do it several times after some practice using brakes on a carreir doing 30 knots. I never knew there was a navalized version.

owlwatcher
11-11-2004, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
With the addon of the great navys of Japan, Austrailia, Holland, Great Britain, and America. Has anyone heard or thought of some add-ons for the German Navy as well? The Tirpitz wasn't the only great battleship theres also the Gneisnau, Bismark, Prince Eugen, Scharnhorst etc? They even had a carrier called the Graf Zepplin under construction in France. Whatdaya tink??????? http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/35.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Would not mind seeing some german boats BUT,
First it would be nice to see the real ships of the IJN and USN in the game before the german boats are added.

Luftwaffe_109
11-11-2004, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hoarmurath:
The unacheved Graf Zeppelin was sent to russia, where it was sunk with artillery tests.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There are conflicting reports about how Graf Zepplin was sunk, including that it hit a mine and that it capsised due to overloading, both on the way back to the Soviet Union.

Stalin's Ocean-Going Fleet by Rohwer describes her being sunk as a target, with the final blow a torpedo from Grozyashchiy.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What was the fate of the Graf Zeppelin anyhow? Why was it scrapped? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I remember correctly:

-Laid down 28.12.36 (Deutsche Werke shipyard in Kiel)

-Launched 8.12.38

Construction suspended 1940 (empahsis changed to U-Boats as war made Z-plan obsolete).

-Resumed construction, to modified design 1942, as Kriegsmarine became interested once more in carriers.

-Suspended construction 1943 (about 80-95% complete) after the "Battle of Barrents Sea", where:

Hipper, Lutzow and six destroyers attacked convoy JW51B to Murmansk resulting in a damaged heavy cruiser and a destroyer lost(heavy casualties for the KM surface fleet) for only a destroyer and a mine-sweeper sunk.

Basically, after this blow, Hitler halted the construction of all heavy ships (this included GZ), accepted Admiral Raeder's resignation and instead appointed the Admiral U-Boats, D├┬Ânitz, to C-in-C of the KM.

-GZ's guns were sent to Norway as coastal defence.

- GZ scuttled Stettin 25.4.45, salvaged by the Russian's.

- Sunk October 47.


---------------------------------------------

Anyway, as for the game, in my opinion GZ would be excellent for "what if" senarios and certainly not too far fetched (it could have been completed in 43). I'd also very much like to see other German surface units (eg. Gneisenau (for Baltic), Bl├╝cher (Invasion of Norawy) Graf Spee (Battle of the River Plate) and especially German floatplanes (Ardo AR-196 for naval missions.

All of these would be excellent for the new Murmansk/Norway and for use on other maps that (with some imagination) can sort-of pass for the Atlantic.



Regards

Motorsound
11-12-2004, 03:03 AM
Hi people!

I repeat my post of an other thread before:

For those of you, which are interested in:
www.vdmedien.de (http://www.vdmedien.de)

Here you can find a book (in german) "Messerschmitt Bf109T - die J├┬Ąger der Graf Zeppelin";
translated: "Messerschmitt Bf109T - the hunter (aero: fighter) of the graf zeppelin", 324pages, 42,80Euro

The 109T was developed for the "Graf Zeppelin", but the carrier wasn't finisched.
So the 109T came to Norway and 1943 to Helgoland (to fight against U.S.- and R.A.F.-bombers).
In the book are also Comments of U.S. and R.A.F.-pilots.

WOLFMondo
11-12-2004, 06:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74_Buzzsaw:
Salute

The German ships could be used on the new Murmansk map.

We also need British Battleships and others:

King George V class Battleship

Renown class BattleCruiser

Exeter class Heavy Cruiser

Etc. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We already have the KVG's but the others would be nice like Royal Sovereigns but the British need a few destroyers and cruisers, the Town class and sub variants were very commom. I'd love to see HMS Warspite available too.

IV_JG51_Razor
11-12-2004, 07:47 AM
Although I'd really like to fly off of the Graff Zep..(sp?) too, we should be careful what we wish for. Knowing Oleg's penchant for realism, if it ever made it into the game, you can bet that the only fighter we'd ever get to fly from it would be the 109T. That would be ok for the early war, but that's it.

Tooz_69GIAP
11-12-2004, 07:47 AM
As far as i am aware, someone did do a model of the Graf Zeppelin, and sent it to Oleg some time ago. Dunno what became of it. That's at least what I heard, but I forget where I heard it http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Ruy Horta
11-12-2004, 08:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tater-SW-:
The KM wasn't a first rate surface force, only a first rate sub force. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense!

The Kriegsmarine was unprepared for WW2, but to say it was not first rate is to imply its men were trained to inferior standard and its equipment was inferior in standard. That's simply not true.

The Kriesmarine carried on the tradition of the Kaiserliche Marine and said navy can't hardly be described as "second rate". Do any of you people remember Jutland?

To say a navy second simply because it was in an early phase of build up and unprepared at the beginning of the war is limiting yourself to the mere surface.

To call the U-Boat service first rate is only to state the obvious.

People make all kinds of silly comparisons here.

Bismarck vs Iowa or Yamato

The latter two are SUPER Battleships.

You'd have to look at the H-class to get a proper Kriegsmarine equivalent, the Bismarck class wasn't designed to fight these Superbattleships.

Of course you can compare anything.

Graf Spee vs USS Nimitz, but if you want to compare *****, at least stay in the same league.

The Graf Zeppelin was not designed to fight the USS Lexington or Essex-class for that matter.

It was a pre-war design and it should be compared to British carriers of the same period. Anyone look at pre-war FAA a/c types?

Wonder how the Fulmar would have stood against a 109T?

I am not trying to make a glorified ship of the Graf Zepp. The KM understood she was a ship in a vacuum. Actually most of the surface KM was a fleet in being, not much more.

However POOR the KM was, they still managed to occupy Norway right under the bloody nose of the RN!

Read some RN accounts on encounters with the KM, at least they paid (edit, spelling) the proper respect their adversary earned. If anything the german sailor showed he knew how to die.

No601_prangster
11-12-2004, 12:54 PM
I remember Jutland, the German High Seas Fleet retreated at the first sight of the British Grand Fleet's main battle line and never came out of harbour again until they sailed into internment at Scape Flow. http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/mockface.gif

Actually Ruy Horta the Kriesmarine were a well equipped and well trained force that caused the RN a lot of problems in the first half of the war. But at the end of the day the Graf Zeppelin would have had little impact on the war and would either have stayed in port or been hunted down at sea.

Luftwaffe_109
11-12-2004, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I remember Jutland, the German High Seas Fleet retreated at the first sight of the British Grand Fleet's main battle line and never came out of harbour again until they sailed into internment at Scape Flow. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You simply cannot use strategic events (the fact that the High Seas fleets was ordered never to put to sea again) to make tactical observations (the fighting quality of the KM).

For that, one need only look at the casualties compared with the force ratio, it shows a tactical victory for the Germans, however I agree with you that the ultimate outcome only strengthed the British strategic position in the war.

What did the British learn from Jutland:
-The Germans possessed superior fire-control systems.
-British ships relied to much on speed and were insufficiently armoured.
-German ships had excellent survivability.

Final loses:

Britain:

Sunk:
Indefatigable, Queen Mary, Invincible (Battlecruisers)
Black Prince, Warrior, Defense(Armoured Cruisers)
Shark,Sparrowhawk, Tipperary, Turbulent, Ardent, Fortune, Nomad, Nestor(Destroyers and Torpedo Boats)

Damaged:
Malaya, Colossus, Barham, Warspite (Dreadnoughts)
Lion, Tiger (Battle Cruisers)
Chester (Cruiser)
Destroyers/Torpedo Boats (Several)


German:

Sunk:
Lutzow, Battlecruiser
Pommern, Pre-Dreadnought (obsolete) Battleship
Frauenlob, Elbing,Rostock, Wiesbaden (Cruisers)
V-48, S-35, V-27, V-4, V-29 (Destroyers/Torpedo Boats)

Damaged:
Konig, Grosser, Kurfurst, Markgraf, Kaiser (Dreadnoughts)
Seydlitz, Derfflinger (Battle cruiser)
Pillau, Frankfurt (Cruisers)
Destroyers and Torpedo Boats: unknown



As you can see, by looking at loses we can deduce that a smaller German force (which had been meant only to engage part of the Grand Fleet, not all of it as was the results of having cracked the German naval code) inflicted heavier losses (in ships sunk) to a numerically superior force.

As for the KM in World War II, they were proffessional and well trained as well as having good ships, however they were woefully unprepared for war. Raeder and Donitz both argue that part of the reason for its indecisive battles (eg. Battle of the Barrent's Sea) was Hitler's own "No risks" order to his larger surface units.


Regards

Ruy Horta
11-12-2004, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by No601_prangster:
But at the end of the day the Graf Zeppelin would have had little impact on the war and would either have stayed in port or been hunted down at sea. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The impact of the Graf Zeppelin as a single carrier is not at discussion, it would have been as little as the other surface vessels, although some limited air cover would have done a raiding force quite some good if you think that the FAA had to use Swordfish TBs.

As for the description of the High Sea Fleet's actions I'd suggest you pick up a few extra books, although strategically you are correct it wasn't that easy. The HSF showed quite some level of seamanship during the maneuvering of Jutland that was the key to that battle. The battle itself was not what the RN expected it to be, a walkover.

Arguably the German navy outperformed the RN that day, both technically and tactically. The fleet remained more or less intact, it cannot be helped that the Imperial HQ lacked the balls to use it more actively.

You should look up the (ojective) facts on that battle, number of ships involved, damage inflicted, evolutions performed etc etc etc.

Sobering data.

But this is all OT.

Back to the remark made originally, the Kriegsmarine was not a "second rate" navy, at least not in the usual sense of the term.

Luftwaffe_109
11-12-2004, 01:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Back to the remark made originally, the Kriegsmarine was not a "second rate" navy, at least not in the usual sense of the term. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are talking about the level of proffessionalism of its men, their level of training, quality of ships (notwithstanding Bismark's structural flaws), technological level, survivability, etc, I agree completely, it was certainly not second rate by even a long shot.

Of course the Kriegsmarine was completely unprepared for war (Z-plan projected to be completed in the mid-fourties) and the Germans found themselves without a fleet capable of achieving much strategically for the war. This explains the apparent lack of war winning results of the navy.

After the Invasion of Norway it was significantly mauled and its capabilities decreased further (although it must be remembered that it was esential in making it a success). Still, it may have been able to achieve more had Hitler allowed Raeder the flexibility to take risks with his capital ships.

Anyway, I digress. Lets see a GZ in the game. Personally, I'd use her as a commerce raider in the Baltic (although that area is probably unsuited for carrier operations).

Regards

JR_Greenhorn
11-12-2004, 02:11 PM
I would love to see the GZ in game, but I think if it were to ever happen, it would take 3rd party modellers to submit not only the GZ, but the Bf 109T and the Ju 87C with it. It's my hunch that all three would be needed in order for Oleg's team to justify the work needed to get them in.

If the GZ ever was included, it would be cool to have it in the most complete state it attained, and also a "completed and operational" state. Having the in progress version of the boat gives good mission builder possiblities, and I think all but the short-sighted here know what the possibilities are with a complete version.

The GZ got towed around a buch with tugs, didn't it? It would be cool to have tugs in game that could be set to tow ships like planes can tow gliders. Mission possibilities could then include attacks on in-progress or crippled ships as they are in tow to and from harbours.

darkhorizon11
11-12-2004, 02:34 PM
Saying the Kriegsmarine was a second rate Navy is like saying everything else the Germans had and did during the war was second-rate. Bottom line is that the KM wasn't big enough to tackle the RN and USN and they lost. It doesn't mean they were inferior. Thats totally different.

And I agree, when I asked for the German GZ I was asking for the GZ under production until 1943 designed to employ the bf 109T and Ju 87C.
Not some uber carrier launching Me 262s and Ta 183s.

Basically what I'm saying is that (since the GZ was about a year away from entering active service) if the course of world event such a Japan bombing Pearl or the German invasion of Poland was pushed back a year then it could have very seen combat...


Oh and by the way Fennec since PF is now out do you think that you can just maybe reveal which wonderful ship you modeled???

Luftwaffe_109
11-12-2004, 05:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Basically what I'm saying is that (since the GZ was about a year away from entering active service) if the course of world event such a Japan bombing Pearl or the German invasion of Poland was pushed back a year then it could have very seen combat... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, changes in world events aren't neccessary. All you need for a "what if" concerning Graf Zepplin is for construction not to have been halted in either 40 or 43 (both were policy decisions).

Dagger_3
11-12-2004, 07:09 PM
I would like to state to Luftwaffere (****, is that how you spell it??) 109 that every waking thing that happens (ever) is a world event, just a very small one. Therfore, a policy change is a world event. There I said it, now I'm done. (dose anyone know if there's a BoB site yet? http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif)

Vamandrac_Steam
07-27-2006, 05:48 PM
http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/grafzeppelin3.jpg

http://www.german-navy.de/pics/postcards/grafzeppelin_001.jpg

http://premium1.uploadit.org/Dietrich//Zeppelin3.jpg

http://www.german-navy.de/kriegsmarine/ships/carrier/grafzeppelin/history.html

Tater-SW-
07-27-2006, 10:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Saying the Kriegsmarine was a second rate Navy is like saying everything else the Germans had and did during the war was second-rate. Bottom line is that the KM wasn't big enough to tackle the RN and USN and they lost. It doesn't mean they were inferior. Thats totally different. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You don't understand what First rate, Second rate, and Third rate mean then.

The KM wasn't a 2d rate navy in WW2, it was a THIRD RATE navy. It's a function of capability and resources. The KM had zero ability to project significant power in blue water other than attacking unarmed merchants. When merchant ships were convoyed, they couldn't even do that. Only 2% of all convoyed shipping was sunk.

There were 2, maybe 3 "First Rate" navies in WW2. The USN, the RN, and the IJN a distant 3d (a powerful blue-water force, but dangerously lopsided in favor of a totally wrong doctrine) . The 2d Rate navies were France and Italy---powerful, but regional navies. The KM was in league with all the rest 3d rate and lower. The USN or RN started the war with more Cruisers than the KM had ships all the way down to DDs, for example. The "rate" opf the navy says exactly nothing about the skill of the sailors, it's a ranking of capability as a force in total.

It's just fact, sorry if you don't like it, count the ships, count the tonnage to see if a navy is even in the ballpark of "first rate." If it is, then check it's ability to actually operate for extended periods in blue water---that means the really important stuff, LOGISTICS. If you can't oil the task force on the run and keep fighting, but have to run home to port, you ain't a blue water navy.

tater

Tooz_69GIAP
07-27-2006, 10:29 PM
eh, guys, this thread is pretty long in the tooth!!

But I'd still love to see the GV with the Ju-87C, Me-109T, and Me-155 for later war scenarios (yeah, okay, so the Me-155 was never actually finished being sidled off to B&V for further development - but still, it would be cool!).

Pity we wont see it.

jolly_magpie
07-28-2006, 12:11 AM
If anyone is still interested in the GZ, it appears she has been found:

Divers find Hitler's aircraft carrier (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-2287104,00.html)

darkhorizon11
07-30-2006, 12:30 AM
yeah I saw a thread on that interesting...

I never understood why it was such a mystery... besides the location anyway, the Russians used it for target practice

HellToupee
07-30-2006, 02:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I remember Jutland, the German High Seas Fleet retreated at the first sight of the British Grand Fleet's main battle line and never came out of harbour again until they sailed into internment at Scape Flow. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You simply cannot use strategic events (the fact that the High Seas fleets was ordered never to put to sea again) to make tactical observations (the fighting quality of the KM).

For that, one need only look at the casualties compared with the force ratio, it shows a tactical victory for the Germans, however I agree with you that the ultimate outcome only strengthed the British strategic position in the war.

What did the British learn from Jutland:
-The Germans possessed superior fire-control systems.
-British ships relied to much on speed and were insufficiently armoured.
-German ships had excellent survivability.

Final loses:

Britain:

Sunk:
Indefatigable, Queen Mary, Invincible (Battlecruisers)
Black Prince, Warrior, Defense(Armoured Cruisers)
Shark,Sparrowhawk, Tipperary, Turbulent, Ardent, Fortune, Nomad, Nestor(Destroyers and Torpedo Boats)

Damaged:
Malaya, Colossus, Barham, Warspite (Dreadnoughts)
Lion, Tiger (Battle Cruisers)
Chester (Cruiser)
Destroyers/Torpedo Boats (Several)


German:

Sunk:
Lutzow, Battlecruiser
Pommern, Pre-Dreadnought (obsolete) Battleship
Frauenlob, Elbing,Rostock, Wiesbaden (Cruisers)
V-48, S-35, V-27, V-4, V-29 (Destroyers/Torpedo Boats)

Damaged:
Konig, Grosser, Kurfurst, Markgraf, Kaiser (Dreadnoughts)
Seydlitz, Derfflinger (Battle cruiser)
Pillau, Frankfurt (Cruisers)
Destroyers and Torpedo Boats: unknown



As you can see, by looking at loses we can deduce that a smaller German force (which had been meant only to engage part of the Grand Fleet, not all of it as was the results of having cracked the German naval code) inflicted heavier losses (in ships sunk) to a numerically superior force.

As for the KM in World War II, they were proffessional and well trained as well as having good ships, however they were woefully unprepared for war. Raeder and Donitz both argue that part of the reason for its indecisive battles (eg. Battle of the Barrent's Sea) was Hitler's own "No risks" order to his larger surface units.


Regards </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Im pretty sure most if not all of the crusiers the RN lost were not with the fleet but ahead of it, the ships were also used in a fasion they wernt designed eg too close to the enemy when they were designed to use their speed and longer range guns to remain out of the enemys range.

When the full fleet showed up the KM fled and it was fear of a trap the rn didnt persue.

JG53Frankyboy
07-30-2006, 07:03 AM
well, the 3 lost RN Battlecruisers were lost in an artillerei fight with german Battlecruisers............

both forces were on their task an an armed http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif recon section ahead of their main battle fleets.


for any further Battleship, Jutland/Skaggerak discussions:
there is already a 21 site topic
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/4401006444/p/1

http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hoatee
07-30-2006, 12:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Freycinet:
BTW, it's "Kriegsmarine", not Kreigsmarine... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

At least the misspelling rhymes with how it is pronounced in Dutch.

JG301_nils
07-30-2006, 05:09 PM
If you're still interested in Graf Zeppelin a brilliant guy at Military Meshes forum is doing a great model of it WIP
Here is the link to the thread if you like to see the whole thread: http://www.military-meshes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32
And here is an image for the lazy ones http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
(also spend some time while there, lots of GREAT models to see, all military......)
-nils-

http://www.military-meshes.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=761&d=1154252917

darkhorizon11
08-01-2006, 03:01 PM
Jutland? The best description I've heard is a strategtic victory for Germany, tactical victory for Britain...

Remember politics played a large role in this battle... Neither side really wanted to commit to this battle, for each side their respective fleets were like a prize toy, a brand new Mercedes they didn't want to risk getting scratched. Thats why this is the only major naval conflict that took place.

Also the Germans did manage to hold their own against the RN. Their superior fire control mechanizisms allowed them to strike first with a serious of hits destroying a couple cruisers and battleships which leveled the playing field. They also knew when to quit, while they were ahead. The parade retreat maneuver they performed to sneak away was actually considered to be impossible by the RN, whom were taken totally by surprise. They basically had 50 ship main line, which were lined perfectly abreast sailing north all make a sharp right hand turn simultaneously. Then because they were all sailing front to back in perfect line to the West they gave the profile of one ship making them seemingly dissappear to the British. Quite and impressive maneuver with no computers, advanced radios, or GPS!

JG53Frankyboy
08-01-2006, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Jutland? The best description I've heard is a strategtic victory for Germany, tactical victory for Britain...

............... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

perhaps more otherway round http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

darkhorizon11
08-02-2006, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by darkhorizon11:
Jutland? The best description I've heard is a strategtic victory for Germany, tactical victory for Britain...

............... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

perhaps more otherway round http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

errr yeah thats what i meant http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Eldude95
08-02-2006, 07:21 PM
there should be campainghs for german navy in the game then get sarotoga or something and duke it out

Col._King
08-03-2006, 02:05 PM
~S!~

Actually I'm working on a Kriegsmarine/Luftwaffe Campaign for FB/AEP/PF, together with some other guys. Go see in the paintsheme section. http://forums.ubi.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif