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View Full Version : Fw190 over Japan - not a complete nonsense!



Schmouddle-WT
06-02-2004, 01:32 AM
Hi guys,

In recent past there was a furious discussion about back compatibility of PF and IL2/FB/AEP.
One of the arguments of the so-called "purists" was the fact, some of the server admins would do nonsense scenarios, for example allowing Fw190 in Pacific.

I can claim the Fw190 realy FLEW over Japan, I have found two rare photos of Fw190 A-5 in Japanese colours!

The Fw190 over Japan and Iwo-jima (or whatever) has moved from Nonsense to What-If scenarios. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Schmouddle/ResizeofFW190-Jap01.jpg

Translation from Czech subtitle:
This picture shows Fw190A-5 which has been shipped to Japan for evaluation. Japanese have shown no interest in licence production.

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Schmouddle/ResizeofFW190-Jap02.jpg

Translation from Czech subtitle:
Japanese test pilot prepares for take-off in Fw190A-5.The aircraft carries the standard armament, consisting of two MG 17 on the upper engine cowling (?), two MG151/20 in inner wing compartments and two MGFF in outer wings compartments. Altough a new aircraft has been handed over, this one looks like it has been bought "second-hand", as the engine side covers show heavy wear-off marks.


I would say:
On this example you can see the war in Pacific was not only about carriers and frog leaps. Narrowing the possibility to choose the setup you like is in fact downgrading of the quality of the PF product.
The fact is everyone could do a server of his own preferences, so there is no way to avoid nonsenses completely. You can just choose the server meeting your likes.

So....
Yes to carriers
Yes to frogleaps
Yes to pre-war China
Yes to Aleutian islands
Yes to full scale Pacific war
YES TO VARIETY!

Source of pictures: War Legends Focke-Wulf Fw190 /Monography by Peter Caygill, ISBN80-7236-322-0,Czech langugage, Tesco Store/CZK 149

PS: If anybody have another information about evaluation/life/faith of this Fw190, just share it with us.

Schmouddle-WT
06-02-2004, 01:32 AM
Hi guys,

In recent past there was a furious discussion about back compatibility of PF and IL2/FB/AEP.
One of the arguments of the so-called "purists" was the fact, some of the server admins would do nonsense scenarios, for example allowing Fw190 in Pacific.

I can claim the Fw190 realy FLEW over Japan, I have found two rare photos of Fw190 A-5 in Japanese colours!

The Fw190 over Japan and Iwo-jima (or whatever) has moved from Nonsense to What-If scenarios. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Schmouddle/ResizeofFW190-Jap01.jpg

Translation from Czech subtitle:
This picture shows Fw190A-5 which has been shipped to Japan for evaluation. Japanese have shown no interest in licence production.

http://www.photodump.com/direct/Schmouddle/ResizeofFW190-Jap02.jpg

Translation from Czech subtitle:
Japanese test pilot prepares for take-off in Fw190A-5.The aircraft carries the standard armament, consisting of two MG 17 on the upper engine cowling (?), two MG151/20 in inner wing compartments and two MGFF in outer wings compartments. Altough a new aircraft has been handed over, this one looks like it has been bought "second-hand", as the engine side covers show heavy wear-off marks.


I would say:
On this example you can see the war in Pacific was not only about carriers and frog leaps. Narrowing the possibility to choose the setup you like is in fact downgrading of the quality of the PF product.
The fact is everyone could do a server of his own preferences, so there is no way to avoid nonsenses completely. You can just choose the server meeting your likes.

So....
Yes to carriers
Yes to frogleaps
Yes to pre-war China
Yes to Aleutian islands
Yes to full scale Pacific war
YES TO VARIETY!

Source of pictures: War Legends Focke-Wulf Fw190 /Monography by Peter Caygill, ISBN80-7236-322-0,Czech langugage, Tesco Store/CZK 149

PS: If anybody have another information about evaluation/life/faith of this Fw190, just share it with us.

Longjocks
06-02-2004, 01:55 AM
I'm with you, man, but I see another frustrating, pointless argument arising from this thread.

http://users.tpg.com.au/mpdeans/misc/midgesign2.gif "Thanks for the inspiration to rise above you all."

Giganoni
06-02-2004, 02:13 AM
Um...yes it is well known that an FW190A and a 109E were shipped to Japan by sub for evaluation purposes.

Studying the FW190A helped the Japanese to produce the very fast Judy dive bomber and the Ki-100

Also the Ki-61 was tested against the 109E to my knowledge. I don't mind inclusion of German planes or what not if the players want to in PF, but no...German planes were never used operationaly by the Japanese. Although the Allies always thought that they were, such as the Mike.

http://img74.photobucket.com/albums/v225/giganoni/IL2/giganoni2.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
06-02-2004, 02:36 AM
That's the key ---> "Allies" thought they were fighting Italian or German planes

and so the code name Tony

Thus for Full Realism experience, the "Ally" dogfighters must actually Beleive they
are facing the Fp109 on the pre~1944 Brownie Point servers.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

RAC_Pips
06-02-2004, 04:08 AM
A major problem Nakajima had when designing the Ki-44 Shoki was the engine cowling design. The chosen engine was the Ha.41, which offered excellent horsepower - 1,250hp - but was a very bulky radial.

Tei Koyama, the designer, and his team studied the test Fw190A that Japan possessed and came up with the very well streamlined cowl that the Ki-44 has. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ElAurens
06-02-2004, 05:27 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Giganoni:
Studying the FW190A helped the Japanese to produce the very fast Judy dive bomber and the Ki-100

Also the Ki-61 was tested against the 109E to my knowledge.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The FW 190 had nothing to do with the Ki 100, that was a simple re-powering of the Ki 61 due to lack of the original inline engines.

And yes, the Ki 61 was indeed tested agianst the Bf 109E, and the P40E and LaGG3, and it out flew them all.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

_____________________________

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BlitzPig_EL

Ruy Horta
06-02-2004, 09:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ElAurens:
The FW 190 had nothing to do with the Ki 100, that was a simple re-powering of the Ki 61 due to lack of the original inline engines.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien in Japanese Army Air Force service, by Richard M. Buesschel, p.29:

In a crash design progam, in which a German Focke Wulf Fw 190 A-5 fighter originally sent to Japan late in 1943 was dismantled to study its engine mounting dynamics, the conversion was engineered in time to have the first prototype completed in just ninety days. The Focke Wulf fuselage was almost as narrow as the Hien's and the flush side mounting of the German BMW 801D engine's exhaust were adopted for the conversion.

Converting an airframe that has been designed to take an inline engine to a radial is anything, but simple...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif
Ruy Horta

ElAurens
06-02-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rhorta:
Converting an airframe that has been designed to take an inline engine to a radial is anything, but simple...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, but I took the post to mean that the FW 190 served as a design inspiration, as if the Ki 100 was a totally new airframe.

Funny thing is, my copy of Mr. Bueschel's soft cover by Schiffer is right next to me...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

At least Kawasaki picked a good plane to get some details from...

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

_____________________________

http://www.blitzpigs.com/forum/images/avatars/Curtiss_logo.gif

BlitzPig_EL

KIMURA
06-03-2004, 04:09 AM
mixed up with the 109E-3.
Kimura

[This message was edited by KIMURA on Thu June 03 2004 at 05:37 AM.]

JG53Frankyboy
06-03-2004, 05:45 AM
and whats about the cooling flaps in the pictures above ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JAS_Gripen
06-03-2004, 01:35 PM
That photo is a forgery. In real, corrected world Fw-190's cockpit dashboard was sunk well into the fuselage - as IL2 accurately presented for the first time in flight-sims.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/jagripen/varasto/horse-dead.jpg

besides, since tall Germans must have had difficulty seeing out from the cockpit, that pilot cannot be a short Japanese guy. In fact he's likely a 7 feet actor all masked up.

*poof*

CowboyTodd41
06-03-2004, 03:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That photo is a forgery. In real, corrected world Fw-190's cockpit dashboard was sunk well into the fuselage - as IL2 accurately presented for the first time in flight-sims.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh man, that's hilarious. I mean no one'sever beaten that horse before http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif I see Longjocks post coming true.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Tgan92/newsig.gif

Schmouddle-WT
06-04-2004, 06:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAS_Gripen:
That photo is a forgery. In real, corrected world Fw-190's cockpit dashboard was sunk well into the fuselage - as IL2 accurately presented for the first time in flight-sims.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/jagripen/varasto/horse-dead.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever heard about perspective?



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
besides, since tall Germans must have had difficulty seeing out from the cockpit, that pilot cannot be a short Japanese guy. In fact he's likely a 7 feet actor all masked up.

*poof*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Naaaaaaah, are you serious?! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

Again this is only your assumption/feeling (must have had difficulty)
Ever heard about butt-chute http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif and adjustable seats?

If you KNOW it is a fake, just post PROOF. If you FEEL it is a fake, go find PROOF otherwise keep your mouth shut. (No offence, though)

"Do not assume. Assumption is a mother of all f*ck-ups"

The boss of bad guys in "Under Siege 2: Dark Territory"

JAS_Gripen
06-04-2004, 07:31 AM
lol

Doug_Thompson
06-04-2004, 09:52 AM
The issue's already settled, but Francillion's book on Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War also notes that Japanese designers took advantage of blueprints* of the FW 190 in their conversion of "Tony" airframes into radial-engined Ki-100.

It wouldn't upset me if people put German aircraft in the Pacific, but it is a little silly. Why put an FW 190 in the Pacific when you can fly a Ki-100, for instance? Why fly a Bf109 when you can fly a Tony?

The real obstacle to using German designs was differnt design philosophy. Japanese could have copied German fighters if they wanted to, but they wanted more maneuverable fighters with greater range.

If you want to have a fight between German jets and a Corsair, just put the Corsairs in the Fleet Air Arm and have them attack Norway. Also, the Japanese did make a near copy of the Me262, I believe. It was a little smaller and had folding wings, I bellieve, so it could be hidden in caves.

(Edited P.S.: It wasn't blueprints, but an actual FW 190, according to Francillon.)

[This message was edited by Doug_Thompson on Fri June 04 2004 at 06:43 PM.]

JAS_Gripen
06-04-2004, 10:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doug_Thompson:

If you want to have a fight between German jets and a Corsair, just put the Corsairs in the Fleet Air Arm and have them attack Norway.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bingo.

Wildcat served in the Med, Hellcat too. Avengers flew in the Atlantic. We know we get B-24 in PF - will we get them in AEP if they have to be done "twice"?

P-80, Yak-9, Po-2, IL2 as IL-10...add a mountanous map and you have a poor man's Korean war (early)...

In short there are many positive things in AC portability that go way beyond the "I don't want to see Germans in New Guinea".

Besides a few Americans *did* do combat tours both in ETO and CBI/SWPAC. I would think Americans at least would be joyfull about intercompability.

Spectre-63
06-04-2004, 11:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAS_Gripen:
That photo is a forgery. In real, corrected world Fw-190's cockpit dashboard was sunk well into the fuselage - as IL2 accurately presented for the first time in flight-sims.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/jagripen/varasto/horse-dead.jpg

besides, since tall Germans must have had difficulty seeing out from the cockpit, that pilot cannot be a short Japanese guy. In fact he's likely a 7 feet actor all masked up.

*poof*<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

you're absolutely right...how could you possibly fly a sim that made such an egregious error. I suggest you stop posting to this forum immediately in protest of this horrific misrepresentation.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

http://home.comcast.net/~mjmcmahon672/images/Sig_Small.gif

Doug_Thompson
06-04-2004, 07:42 PM
I double-checked: Francillon's book says that an imported FW 190 itself was inspected by designers of the Ki-100, instead of blueprints.