PDA

View Full Version : P-47s from carriers



k5054
07-13-2004, 03:53 PM
In 1944 the 318th Fighter Group, P-47Ds, launched from a carrier to fly to Saipan after the first airfield was captured.
Just today Discovery showed some clips of the take-offs. Don't know whether catapults were used, I guess the 47 was not equipped, but those planes had about two/three fuselage lengths to get off in, the deck roll was around two seconds before they were airborne.
Will we be able to do this in PF?
(P-40s were flown off carriers too, as well as the well-known B-25s).

k5054
07-13-2004, 03:53 PM
In 1944 the 318th Fighter Group, P-47Ds, launched from a carrier to fly to Saipan after the first airfield was captured.
Just today Discovery showed some clips of the take-offs. Don't know whether catapults were used, I guess the 47 was not equipped, but those planes had about two/three fuselage lengths to get off in, the deck roll was around two seconds before they were airborne.
Will we be able to do this in PF?
(P-40s were flown off carriers too, as well as the well-known B-25s).

necrobaron
07-13-2004, 04:04 PM
Is there any info on those particular P-47s? I can't imagine an unmodified Jug being able to take off with such a small take-off space from a carrier unassisted. The B-25s in Doolittle's raid were stripped down to keep the weight at the absolute minimum. I realize P-40s sometimes were transported on carrier decks, but I never knew they actually took off from them. I was under the impression they were unloaded at the destination via cranes and such. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"Not all who wander are lost."

Yellonet
07-13-2004, 04:04 PM
Well the B-25s were lightned, a standard B-25 wouldn't make it.

Anyway I hope we'll be able to try by putting any plane on the carriers.


- Yellonet

Latico
07-13-2004, 04:21 PM
I suspect that the p47's and 40'swhere loaded by crane where ever docking facilities where available. If the carrier gets within a few miles of the target base (say 10 or 15 miles offshore) the p47's would only need enough fuel to make the short hop. They wouldn't be as heavy this way.

I'll bet those Army pilots that had to make such transfers were nervous as they cleared the foward decks though.

FennecP
07-13-2004, 05:39 PM
I know how the P-47s took off.

They had to wait for hurricane force winds to come up. Then rockets were fired, crew members pushed, and the pilot flapped his arms.

The plane looked like it would not lift off in time, but just as it reached the end of the runway, the carrier was hit by a torpedo on the bow with the resulting explosion making the P-47 airborne.

The remaining pilots refused to take of, and were court martialled.

[This message was edited by FennecP on Tue July 13 2004 at 04:52 PM.]

WereSnowleopard
07-13-2004, 06:18 PM
Most likely is not full fuel...maybe 25 percent, carry no ammo, and carrier may run maxium speed toward headwind to get F-47's airfoil enough air to lift off as get max-out engine running before release brake.

LeadSpitter_
07-13-2004, 06:27 PM
I seen a video of late p40s and p47s taking off from carriers. Im not sure what carrier it was

this isnt the video i seen just a pic off the net

http://home.att.net/~oldchinahands/13_takeoff.jpg

The p47s are the ones i seen in the video anyone know what fg this is?

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p47-7.jpg

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p47-8.jpg

http://img14.photobucket.com/albums/v43/leadspitter/LSIG1.gif

MrOblongo
07-13-2004, 06:30 PM
Well, they had hidraulic catapults in late war 1944/1945...

Merlin (FZG_Immel)
07-13-2004, 06:31 PM
you can for sure do it with PF, if the carrier is moving and the P47 not fully loaded, I guess.

------------------------------
www.checksix-fr.com (http://www.checksix-fr.com) Il2/FB/AEP co-webmaster
------------------------------------------------------------
Slot 2 pilot of the Virtual Haute Voltige team, and live video director

http://www.haute-voltige.com/virtualHVteam/concept.htm

PlaneEater
07-13-2004, 07:14 PM
I have a copy of film footage of P-40Fs taking off from carriers during Operation Torch, 1943. Some of the takeoffs were pretty hairy, too.

Dunno about P-47s managing it. But hey, they got B-25s off... I wouldn't be completely stunned if they got P-47s to do the same thing.

JG53Frankyboy
07-13-2004, 07:28 PM
with a carrier speed of ~30knots + wind speed i belive that the most piston fighters of WW2 could take of from the vessel.

landing, for sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif , would be a damn other question http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Waldo.Pepper
07-13-2004, 07:40 PM
Easy peasy research...

318th Fighter group...

On June 23, 1944, four "Val" pilots missed a juicy opportunity. Somebody had screwed up. The Japs snuck in and dove: two went after the Manila Bay, two went after the Natoma Bay. They dropped their bombs, but somehow missed! They almost nailed the carrier Manila Bay while refueling with a bunch of P-47Ds from the 73rd Squadron sitting on her deck. They were lousy shots; they had caught a battleship, a tanker and a escort carrier dead to rights while refueling. The only damage was some parted fuel lines as the ships broke formation. Four P-47s were quickly launched, (Major D. J. Williams in Sweet Adeline, Lt. James Snyder in Damn Yankee, Lt. Keith Mattison in Azz's Dragon and Lt. Robert Anderson in Little Buckaroo) but the bandits got away clean.

see...

http://home.earthlink.net/~atdouble/~318thFighterGroup.Saipan.html

and ...

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/6.html



The B25's of the Doolitle Raiders were lightened (in terms of armarment - guns) only so that they could be loaded up with extra fuel (heavier still ) in the bombay and in some cans. They carrier on 4 bombs. I thin k three demolition bombs and one incendiuary bomb.

GT182
07-13-2004, 07:41 PM
I'd sure hate to be the 1st one off. Last would be better... more deck to use. LOL

I wonder if they drew straws to see who would be 1st to take off. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

"GT182" / "Stab/JG51_vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net/forums (http://www.bombs-away.net/forums)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

CowboyTodd41
07-13-2004, 09:06 PM
http://home.att.net/~oldchinahands/13_takeoff.jpg

That P-40 looks like he's moving along pretty well, although it is just a still.

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/Tgan92/vote.jpg

necrobaron
07-13-2004, 10:17 PM
Given enough runway space I suppose just about any plane(regardless of weight) could take off from a carrier eventually. I could undertstand if the P-47s were given adequate space, but the thing that gets me is this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by k5054:
those planes had about two/three fuselage lengths to get off in, the deck roll was around two seconds before they were airborne.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just don't see how a P-47 could do that. Would even a catapult launch be enough to get them airborne in that short distance in two seconds?

"Not all who wander are lost."

Fennec_P
07-14-2004, 02:35 AM
In FB, taking off in a P47 with 25% fuel requires about 300 meters, more than the whole carrier deck.

In thunderstorm wind, I can manage about 250m, still the whole length of the deck. Again with 25% fuel.

At a guess, I'd say they used catapults.

Gibbage1
07-14-2004, 02:41 AM
A CVE (The type of carrier that lauched the P-47's) were very small escort carriers. Also the deck was loaded with P-47's. I will check my books on carriers, but I think they jerry rigged the catapult's to attach a wire onto the landing gear. Most carrier aircraft had a special hook for launching.

Fennec_P
07-14-2004, 02:43 AM
A chart.

http://www.zenoswarbirdvideos.com/Images/P-47/47TOCL.gif

Gibbage1
07-14-2004, 02:44 AM
A 318th FG P-47D-11-RE runs up to full power as it prepares for a catapult launch from the deck of the CVE Manila Bay off of Saipan. Note the artwork on the drop tank under the fuselage.

http://www.cradleofaviation.org/history/aircraft/p-47/P-47catapultcomp.jpg

Zyzbot
07-14-2004, 07:54 AM
P-47 launching from carrier:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/URG/images/p47-8.jpg

p1ngu666
07-14-2004, 09:12 AM
p47N was flown off carrier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
also notice the droptank

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

BSS_Vidar
07-14-2004, 12:27 PM
P-47's off carriers eh? Sounds kewel, Just don't put a hook on it or I'll loose my "retired" military mind! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

BSS_Vidar

owlwatcher
07-14-2004, 12:38 PM
The CVE alot of times were used to ferry planes from place to place .
Flying them off just saved them unloading.
First I heard of the P-47 beening flown off.
What CVE is being used?
Check out the USS Wasp history at
http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/

horseback
07-14-2004, 02:58 PM
Catapults require a lot of attachment points and reinforced areas. Most carrier aircraft takeoffs in WWII were accomplished without a cat shot, and carrier bombers like TBFs and SB2Cs had a much higher weight to HP ratio than Jugs.

Taking off from a runway usually includes accellerating from zero to liftoff. On a carrier cruising into the wind, you have the speed of the carrier plus the windspeed (and it's almost always windy at sea; take it from this former destroyer sailor). Call that a 35 knot headstart. Now, stand on your brakes and bring your throttle up to full power, and don't release them until your tailwheel is bouncing up and down. Oh, and don't forget that you're quite a few feet (at least fifty feet) above the ocean's surface once you clear the bow of the carrier; some aircraft used that little dive to build up some more airspeed.

The P-47 easily had enough power to take off from a carrier, even with the earlier 'skinny' non-paddleblade props that I believe the Saipan groups used.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

Gibbage1
07-14-2004, 03:06 PM
Carrier based aircraft also have a much better wing loading then a P-47 so they had a lower stall speed. P-47's stall speed was rather high.

p1ngu666
07-14-2004, 04:58 PM
know id be nervous as heck to take off a p47.
have that engine pinging off its rev limit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

owlwatcher
07-14-2004, 06:18 PM
Here is some information

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/carriers/cve61.txt

p1ngu666
07-14-2004, 06:29 PM
did a quick test
full fuel and drop tank u need around 170kmph to take off
25% and no ammo about 160

170-80 is about as slow as itll go without fallin.

atm id say ud drive off, and not take off

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

owlwatcher
07-14-2004, 06:36 PM
Even more infornation

http://www.hazegray.org/danfs/carriers/cve62.txt

Gibbage1
07-14-2004, 06:42 PM
Why do you think they had the canopy open? Lol. Just in case you needed to take a quick swim!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
know id be nervous as heck to take off a p47.
have that engine pinging off its rev limit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MrOblongo
07-14-2004, 07:07 PM
Those P-47 were in the carriers because is easier to move a plane across the sea in 1 piece instad of disarm it and put it in a freighter, of course it can take off from the carrier (almost any Piston WW2 fighter can do it), but for sure its not a navby fighter and it cant land on carriers (those were supposed to land on manila), so no regular operations with P47 could be made.

p1ngu666
07-14-2004, 07:12 PM
wonder how they will do this
in dogfight be fun trying to land a p47 on carrier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

tfu_iain1
07-15-2004, 09:45 AM
id bale or ditch instead of try landing it.... bale i think, i dont like ditching in radials...

p1ngu666
07-15-2004, 11:08 AM
ah but wheres the fun in that ?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Flakwalker
07-15-2004, 02:05 PM
P-47 may take off from a carrier, also remember that over the CV you already have some "ceiling", the question is how the B-25 of the first row manage to take off on the Hornet, even lightened.

BSS_Vidar
07-17-2004, 01:53 AM
How? By turning the ship into a 35 kt gail, then making turns for 30 kts. This produces a wind down the deck of 65kts. Simple vector analysis. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The B-25's only needed to reach 45 kts deck speed for a rotation of 110 kts indicated. Many-a-times our airspeed indicator in the trusty Viking was all ready alive reading 35 kts airspeed before taking the cat-shot.

S!

BSS_Vidar.

BSS_Vida

Flying_Merkava
07-17-2004, 02:15 AM
In CFS2 I landed a C-37 with low fuel on a carrier lol. After 100 tries if u stall right before ure wheels touch the begining part of the runway and use brakes, rudder, and pull up to cause drag. But prolly not in real life or in Il-2.

http://www.coon-n-crockett.org/jpfo.gif

Sakai9745
07-18-2004, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
I seen a video of late p40s and p47s taking off from carriers. Im not sure what carrier it was

this isnt the video i seen just a pic off the net

http://home.att.net/~oldchinahands/13_takeoff.jpg

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe this was taken aboard the USS Ranger, CV-4. I have read accounts of this carrier making two runs with P-40s, launching them straight from the deck off the coast of Africa for Accrain in 1942. A total of 140 P-40s were delivered in this manner.



Al - SF, Calif

"Defense Dept regrets to inform you that your sons are dead cause they were stupid."