PDA

View Full Version : BF-109 G-2, GM-1 Booster



BigganD
03-30-2004, 08:42 AM
I was reading a book called Fighters, the book is from 2002,so all of this is new discoverd facts.I was reading about the 109s..that shocked me was.. this---> In late 1942, production switched to the Bf 109G, or Gustav, the main feature of which was the more powerful and considerably heavier DB 605A-1 engine with GM-1 boosting.


Ok now..how meny did know that the g-2 had GM-1 Boostering? and what do you think about this?

No one is an ace!

BigganD
03-30-2004, 08:42 AM
I was reading a book called Fighters, the book is from 2002,so all of this is new discoverd facts.I was reading about the 109s..that shocked me was.. this---> In late 1942, production switched to the Bf 109G, or Gustav, the main feature of which was the more powerful and considerably heavier DB 605A-1 engine with GM-1 boosting.


Ok now..how meny did know that the g-2 had GM-1 Boostering? and what do you think about this?

No one is an ace!

blabla0001
03-30-2004, 08:58 AM
How many production G2's where build with GM-1 boost?

jagdmailer
03-30-2004, 09:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
I was reading a book called Fighters, the book is from 2002,so all of this is new discoverd facts.I was reading about the 109s..that shocked me was.. this---&gt; In late 1942, production switched to the Bf 109G, or Gustav, the main feature of which was the more powerful and considerably heavier DB 605A-1 engine with GM-1 boosting.


Ok now..how meny did know that the g-2 had GM-1 Boostering? and what do you think about this?

No one is an ace!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Biggan,

GM-1 (Nitrous Oxide) on WWII German warbirds was a high-altitude only boosting device usable at 6500m + altitude. Using it at any lower altitude in this sim grenades your motor instantly. Therefore, since most of the action takes place at well lower than that, it would not be of much use in this sim.

JagdMailer

Ugly_Kid
03-30-2004, 09:18 AM
GM-1 was planned but it wasn't available for all of the subtypes. The information I have is that for example 80 last Bf-109 G-1/U2 manufactured in Regensburg. (Reduced armour no carrier for extra fuel and unprotected fuel tanks) but they had GM-1, this is about half of the G-1 models.

Later couple of G-5s got GM-1. Additionally there was Bf-109G-6/U2 with GM-1. There were about 345 Bf-109G-6/U2 and 273 converted Bf-109G-6/U2/AS and 20 Bf-109G-6/U2/R2/AS.

This means that it was not _that_ exotic to have GM-1 in Gustav...I haven't heard that there were any GM-1 in G-2s

BigganD
03-30-2004, 09:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ugly_Kid:
GM-1 was planned but it wasn't available for all of the subtypes. The information I have is that for example 80 last Bf-109 G-1/U2 manufactured in Regensburg. (Reduced armour no carrier for extra fuel and unprotected fuel tanks) but they had GM-1, this is about half of the G-1 models.

So havent i..thats the thing i want to find out now, how meny g2s had gm-1s, But when i read that short text agian, it explanes like that all G2s had it, but i dont know, and jagdmailer there are players that fly at that high-altitude, anyway ill try to find more about the G2 GM1 engine!


Later couple of G-5s got GM-1. Additionally there was Bf-109G-6/U2 with GM-1. There were about 345 Bf-109G-6/U2 and 273 converted Bf-109G-6/U2/AS and 20 Bf-109G-6/U2/R2/AS.

This means that it was not _that_ exotic to have GM-1 in Gustav...I haven't heard that there were any GM-1 in G-2s<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is an ace!

butch2k
03-30-2004, 10:13 AM
There were no G-1/U2, indee the KGM-1 system appeared along with G-5/G-6, but some G-3 were retroffited with the KGM-1 system and known as G-3/U2.
As originaly built the G-1 used a different GM-1 system which was standard on this aircraft and quite similar to the one mounted on the F-4/Z, later on this system was removed from the surviving G-1s.
This system was never mounted on the G-2.

BigganD
03-30-2004, 11:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butch2k:
There were no G-1/U2, indee the KGM-1 system appeared along with G-5/G-6, but some G-3 were retroffited with the KGM-1 system and known as G-3/U2.
As originaly built the G-1 used a different GM-1 system which was standard on this aircraft and quite similar to the one mounted on the F-4/Z, later on this system was removed from the surviving G-1s.
This system was never mounted on the G-2.


So they have wrong in the history book?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one is an ace!

butch2k
03-30-2004, 12:14 PM
yup there are indeed wrong http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Kurfurst__
03-30-2004, 12:17 PM
About how many of the 109s had the modifications to use GM-1 in total ? 109E-/Zs, F-/Zs, Gs..?

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

butch2k
03-30-2004, 12:23 PM
Can't answer from memory, but the original system was found dangerous because of explosive decompression when hit by a large caliber round, and was used that much. Especialy so since it could not be used under quite high altitude.
The low pressure system as encountered in the /U2 aircraft did not suffer from explosive decompression obviously but was not used for long as :
i) the fightings took place mostly under GM-1 minimum altitude use
ii) the AS engines provided the necessary power boost at high altitude

In just one case it was found useful : intercepting very high flying recce aircraft. Bf 109G-5/U2/AS being the most efficient German aircraft in intercepting aircraft flying 8500-11000m high.

Kurfurst__
03-30-2004, 12:38 PM
AS + GM-1 ? Ouch! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif How much would that be, 720-730 at 11 000m ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

Though I doubt it would near come to my hypothetical favourity, mating a 109K airframe with a DB 603 N! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

BigganD
03-30-2004, 04:43 PM
I found a homepage..here you can see that even teh F-4s had Gm1s http://www.jg2.org/plane_descriptions/bf109f4.htm

No one is an ace!

butch2k
03-30-2004, 10:47 PM
Only the F-4/Z had GM-1, two high pressure systems were used either Ger├┬Ąt 5 or Ger├┬Ąt 6.

jagdmailer
03-31-2004, 12:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by butch2k:
Only the F-4/Z had GM-1, two high pressure systems were used either Ger├┬Ąt 5 or Ger├┬Ąt 6.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Butch2k,

Maybe not an F-4/Z as the use for such a bird in FB would be far and few between but any chance you can convince Oleg to get us some ordinance for the Friedrich...ie. SC50, SC250, 300l drop-tank and possibly F-4/R1 20mm gondolas ?? All that stuff is already modelled for the Emil and the Gustav, yet noting for the F series.......

The F series is awefully plain still in Il-2-FB/AEP and that is going on 3 years by now....http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Jagd

BigganD
03-31-2004, 08:33 AM
Butch2k i belive more on that book then on you..

No one is an ace!

wastel
03-31-2004, 09:06 AM
hehe BigganD,

HERE you are wrong..and the book.

the only book i WILL trust in the future..is
Butch2k's one :-)

wastel

BigganD
03-31-2004, 10:42 AM
i trust more history books then people here http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

No one is an ace!

PzKpfw
03-31-2004, 11:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
Butch2k i belive more on that book then on you..

No one is an ace!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats to bad Big, because in this case your book is incorrect, you may want to contact the author or pub to let them know.

& You better get used to the fact that authors can be wrong Ie, William Greens Warplanes of the Third Reich is considered the LW bible ny many, yet today we know it has its share of errors etc, from research from ppl like Butch etc.


Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

blabla0001
03-31-2004, 11:31 AM
Butch2K won the "Most knowlegable WWII Historian" Ubi Forum Award wasn't it?

Besides, a book that states that every G2 had this boost system installed is just toilet paper with a fancy hardback cover.

BigganD
03-31-2004, 11:48 AM
Cappadocian_317 all this is the newest fact about the ww2 planes

No one is an ace!

PzKpfw
03-31-2004, 11:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
Cappadocian_317 all this is the newest fact about the ww2 planes

No one is an ace!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And if that book is claiming; that all Bf 109G-2 had GM-1, then it is a waste of paper & money, as its not supported by original documents etc. One can only ponder how many other errors are present.

Regards, John Waters

---------
Notice: Spelling mistakes left in for people who need to correct others to make their life fulfilled.

------
"We've got the finest tanks in the world. We just love to see the German Royal Tiger come up on the field".

Lt.Gen. George S. Patton, Jr. Febuary 1945.

blabla0001
03-31-2004, 12:08 PM
So this book of yours rules over historical documents BigganD?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

BigganD
03-31-2004, 12:12 PM
anyway, i will get more fact about this and post it.(ignors Cappadocian_317)

S!

No one is an ace!

S77th-brooks
03-31-2004, 12:15 PM
TROLL else were CAPPA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

butch2k
03-31-2004, 12:25 PM
Oldest facts for BigganD http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.allaboutwarfare.com/files/pictures/tmp/bf109g1-gm1.jpg

I let my German friends translate the two underlined sentences.

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
03-31-2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
So this book of yours rules over historical documents BigganD?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mind to show yours ? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
ok so calm down boys and give hime a chance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Any prodution numbers and and known units to have used such birds ?

http://www.hell-hounds.de/sigs/gotcha.jpg

Kurfurst__
03-31-2004, 12:34 PM
Hmm, the doc butch posted confirms by estimations for 540 km/h at SL for the G-1/G-2 at 1,42ata.

Cool. I rule! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/bf110_2.jpg
I miss that mushroom shaped cloud, though. Shouldn`t that be present when an A-bomb goes off? Oh, it`s only a 30mm cannon...

blabla0001
03-31-2004, 12:46 PM
GM-1-Anlage nicht eingebout means that the GM-1 system is not fitted.

So much for the "new facts" book.

blabla0001
03-31-2004, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by S77th-brooks:
TROLL else were CAPPA http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, you just want this system added to your G2 in this game, even if it was not present in real life.

BigganD
03-31-2004, 12:51 PM
gotcha have you seen my book? i aws looking for it :P (ignors once agian the spammer Cappadocian_317)

No one is an ace!

blabla0001
03-31-2004, 12:56 PM
What?

No comments for Butch2K and his document BigganD?

Figures. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

S77th-brooks
03-31-2004, 10:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cappadocian_317:
What?

No comments for Butch2K and his document BigganD?

Figures. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> NO CAPPA were starting with the F4 http://www.jg2.org/plane_descriptions/bf109f4.htm

butch2k
03-31-2004, 10:45 PM
- WNF produced 410 F-4/Z (WkNr 7251-7660) between september and december 1941.
- Erla produced 55 F-4/Z (within the 8400-8806 WkNr block) between July and december 1941
- WNF produced 134 F-4/Z (within the 13001-13390 block) between december 1941 and April 1942

Note that this does not mean that the equipment was always carried (difference from the E-7/Z) but that it could be fitted if needed. Two kinds of GM-1 devices could be carried either one relying on 8 GM-1 bottles (4 per wing) or two large torric bottle (1 per wing).
The same system was used on the 109G-1 which had the necessary piping installed. But it does not mean it was always carried. Indeed the bottles were removed when not used. Moreover the highly pressurized bottles very not found very practical especially so since it suffered from explosive decompression when hit by bullets. Hence the introduction on the G-5/G-6 of the low pressure system which was serialy mounted on the /U2 aircraft. This system was also retroffited to some earlier G-3, under the designation G-3/U2.

As for the F-4/R1, 240 were indeed produced but the designation was not used to identify birds carrying the Gondolas (R├╝stsatze VII) but birds that could be fitted with them. Indeed the Gondolas appeared over F-4 production and the early aircraft were unable to carry them. So modifications of the airframe and wings took place so that the new aircraft could accomadate them if needed hence the F-4/R1 designation.

[This message was edited by butch2k on Thu April 01 2004 at 01:35 AM.]

S77th-brooks
04-01-2004, 10:34 PM
bump

Oleg_Maddox
04-01-2004, 11:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
I was reading a book called Fighters, the book is from 2002,so all of this is new discoverd facts.I was reading about the 109s..that shocked me was.. this---&gt; In late 1942, production switched to the Bf 109G, or Gustav, the main feature of which was the more powerful and considerably heavier DB 605A-1 engine with GM-1 boosting.

Ok now..how meny did know that the g-2 had GM-1 Boostering? and what do you think about this?

No one is an ace!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GM-1 was set on the part of Bf-109G-1 fighters, but not on G-2.

GM-1 were usually present on the BFs that had pressured cockpits, in this case such as G-2, G-4, G-6 and later after G-6 fighter serial production models had not GM-1 device. Instead of GM-1 was introduced new superchargers and new midyfications of DB605 engines in a serial production Bf-109s.

butch2k
04-02-2004, 10:08 AM
Of the non-pressurized only the G-6/U2 had GM-1 installed but with the introduction of the DB605AS engine and the fact that most fight took place below minimum GM-1 use alt the GM-1 circuitry was converted to MW-50 use. The aircraft kept being called G-6/U2 though as it was just a field kit conversion of the existing circuits.

jagdmailer
04-02-2004, 01:20 PM
Butch2k,

Thanks for the timely info. Do you have a "enter in service" date for those converted GM-1 into MW-50 for the Bf 109G-6/U2 ? What about the original GM-1 G-6/U2s ??

Oleg, how hard would it be to add this Bf 109G-6/U2 variant to the current Bf 109 line-up in FB/AEP. Haven't played in a while, but as far as I can remember, none of the currently in the game G-6 have (execpt the G-6/AS) have MW-50 boost or WEP.

In a figther career mode for the LW, you could then get some G-6/U2 with MW-50 WEP showing up available for missions at the date that they "entered in service" and/or as an alernative to Bf 109G-6 early/late/AS if that what it was in real life.

JagdMailer

jagdmailer
04-02-2004, 01:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oleg_Maddox:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
I was reading a book called Fighters, the book is from 2002,so all of this is new discoverd facts.I was reading about the 109s..that shocked me was.. this---&gt; In late 1942, production switched to the Bf 109G, or Gustav, the main feature of which was the more powerful and considerably heavier DB 605A-1 engine with GM-1 boosting.

Ok now..how meny did know that the g-2 had GM-1 Boostering? and what do you think about this?

No one is an ace!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

GM-1 was set on the part of Bf-109G-1 fighters, but not on G-2.

GM-1 were usually present on the BFs that had pressured cockpits, in this case such as G-2, G-4, G-6 and later after G-6 fighter serial production models had not GM-1 device. Instead of GM-1 was introduced new superchargers and new midyfications of DB605 engines in a serial production Bf-109s.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oleg,

Thanks for your reply.

What about ANY loadouts options for the BF 109F series ?? Right now, we are limited to .....nothing.

Would you be able to make at least SC50 & SC250 as well as 300liter drop-tank available for F-2 & F-4 in BF/AEP ? R1 MG151/20 gondolas on the F-4 and F-4/Z would be "nice to haves" too, but at least some basic loadouts as prior would be nicely appreciated and accurate.

Thank you for your consideration.

JagdMailer

BigganD
04-03-2004, 11:42 AM
Ok Oleg, thx for your reply, now i belive..but what about that jagdmailer is talking about? anything that you can add?

No one is an ace!

dahdah
04-04-2004, 04:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BigganD:
Ok Oleg, thx for your reply, now i belive..but what about that jagdmailer is talking about? anything that you can add?

No one is an ace!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif
Believes one who did not know the P-47N saw combat but does not believe the one who in the process of putting together the ultimate 109 book.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Stefan-R
04-04-2004, 07:06 AM
I hope butch2k's book will be out soon, to stop such discussions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

jagdmailer
04-05-2004, 08:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stefan-R:
I hope butch2k's book will be out soon, to stop such discussions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUMP

Jagd

jagdmailer
04-07-2004, 12:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jagdmailer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stefan-R:
I hope butch2k's book will be out soon, to stop such discussions http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUMP

Jagd<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Butch,

What was the "entry in service" date with operational units for the Bf 109G-6/U2 with original GM-1 systems, and the date for field conversion of those system to MW50 use ??

Thanks,

JagdMailer