PDA

View Full Version : Killing Assassins Creed



svenskbear
09-12-2015, 07:39 PM
Since AC3 Ubisoft have only disappointed me when it comes to the time period of the Assassins creed games. But i have still come to an "agreement" with the games and enjoyed them very much. The reason i don't like the timeline is because of the guns and how it destroys the typical AC combat gameplay that we all like from AC1 - ACR.

And now comes syndicate. Now they have revolvers, fights almost only with their fists and the most f*cked up part is that JACOB IS GOING AROUND WITH A F*CKING TOPHAT and can anly use the assassins hood in stelth mode. Sure that ubisoft have good explanations to it.

But my question is why do they put a game in a time period where they have to take away all these important Assassins creed elements.

The reason i made this thread is first of all that i want to say my opinion and see if theres others that shares the same opinion.

(Sorry for the bad english)

Aphex_Tim
09-12-2015, 07:52 PM
What makes swords more Assassin's Creed than guns?


I agree the top hat is extremely silly though. It's fine for blending but who in their right mind would go free-running across rooftops wearing a freakin' top hat? Suspention of disbelief can only go so far...

EmptyCrustacean
09-12-2015, 08:37 PM
Your English is fine.

I understand what you mean but I also think it was inevitable that it would go this way as the games have been building and building to more modern times. I think the problem is it happened too quickly. AC3 should have happened way down the line. Now it will be difficult for Ubi to go back. I mean can you honestly go back to swords and sandals after you go full revolver? lol

GunnerGalactico
09-12-2015, 09:40 PM
I understand your dilemma. A lot people want AC to go back to the Medieval time period, or much earlier. I personally don't have a problem with when the time period is based, as long if it is executed properly. As time goes by, the Assassins have to upgrade their equipment and employ new tactics and strategies to reach their targets. The problem that many of us have is that the gameplay is getting dumbed down and becoming too simplistic. As for the top hat, I don't really have a problem with it. I know that the hood is one many trademarks of the Assassins, you'd think by now that Templars would be able to spot them a mile away if they saw one.

SofaJockey
09-12-2015, 09:46 PM
The latest time period is fine.
The game evolves, it's ok.

Xstantin
09-12-2015, 09:56 PM
And now comes syndicate. Now they have revolvers, fights almost only with their fists and the most f*cked up part is that JACOB IS GOING AROUND WITH A F*CKING TOPHAT and can anly use the assassins hood in stelth mode. Sure that ubisoft have good explanations to it.

Fitting that time period + fresh silhouette design :confused: dunno
Guns are fine as well imo.
Anyway, not sure how they took all important elements away.

svenskbear
09-12-2015, 10:17 PM
Your English is fine.

I understand what you mean but I also think it was inevitable that it would go this way as the games have been building and building to more modern times. I think the problem is it happened too quickly. AC3 should have happened way down the line. Now it will be difficult for Ubi to go back. I mean can you honestly go back to swords and sandals after you go full revolver? lol

Ofc i could :) and many others want a game in feudual japan so i think many others can to.

HDinHB
09-12-2015, 11:03 PM
The reason i made this thread is first of all that i want to say my opinion and see if theres others that shares the same opinion.

(Sorry for the bad english)

Your English is almost flawless. I might have mistaken you for a native speaker; you even use the F-word properly.

I too would like the games to travel back in time again. Thousands of years of history and we've been stuck in the 18th Century for 5 games. ACS will be the first game since AC3 without flintlock pistols and muskets, so maybe it will have a different feel. But I hope we get something radically different soon.



I agree the top hat is extremely silly though. It's fine for blending but who in their right mind would go free-running across rooftops wearing a freakin' top hat? Suspention of disbelief can only go so far...

I don't mind the top hat, but you are correct it is not the appropriate attire for prancing across Victorian rooftops. I think thats why the recent videos have shown Jacob wearing a newsie.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhueOkvfnQE


Ofc i could :) and...so i think many others can to.

Yep. There's no reason Ubi can't go back and forth in time, they just need to do it. (We haven't had a sword and sandals game yet, but they could even go that far back.)

SixKeys
09-12-2015, 11:08 PM
I might have mistaken you for a native speaker; you even use the F-word properly.


That's the first thing us non-natives learn.

Sorrosyss
09-12-2015, 11:19 PM
That's the first thing us non-natives learn.

So true. I learned all my english from action movies.

Hasta la vista! Wait... that's Spanish...

HDinHB
09-12-2015, 11:19 PM
That's the first thing us non-natives learn.

You mean you're not a native? :eek:

;)

Doug-E-Fresh0126
09-12-2015, 11:20 PM
I agree sort of. I dont want them getting to close to modern times except in the desmond storyline. AC3 was my favorite so far. Except for connors attitude, it was perfect. The homestead stuff was tight, it was the last one where we got to ride horses. And it was probably one of the most accurate time period wise. The buildings and the things you would see people using and stuff like that was exactly how it was back then. I can see people not from america not liking it. it was very intresting to me although I always been intrested in the america revolution. It was the last game that had a real desomnd storyline which i wasn't a big fan of at first but then it's like ok you had us on this ride for all these games and then you just abandon it? I hated black flag, no matter what they say it was made cause people liked the naval missions from AC3. Black flag made no sense if you compare it to the other games . Like this pirate has eagle vision all of a sudden? You couldn't run with eagle vision in black flag, you couldnt swap weapons with people you killed in black flag, as a pirate game ok not an AC games. Rogue was like black flag part 2, and AC3 had better graphics then rogue. Unity was ok the storyline was wack though. And why no dual blades anymore? According to ubisoft everythin after ezio should have them. But some stuff in unity was better like how he could jump further from building to building and stuff like that. Asking for micropay in a game after paying for the game and the season pass is messed up. Even if u do not ever use it the fact that they put it in is wrong. That brings me to syndicate. Now they are using a criminal for an assassin? I thought the assassins were supposed to be like upstanding citizens with morals. The top hat is dumb. An whats dumber is that stealth mode where u stand still and nobody can see u? Cmon really? This is the first time i am not excited about an AC release. I want to be but i cant. Ubisoft wants us to believe they started from scratch and re did evrything from the ground up yet they still have their yearly release ready? How dumb do they think the customers are? That is impossible for a company to basically rework their entire program and still have a product on time. Well i know i am all over the place here, but i was writing th first thing that popped into my head

Kaschra
09-13-2015, 12:05 AM
The reason i don't like the timeline is because of the guns and how it destroys the typical AC combat gameplay that we all like from AC1 - ACR.
Well, you know... we already had guns in those games (excluding AC1). Ezio has the Hidden Gun in AC2, and some guards already had guns in Brotherhood and Revelations.[/QUOTE]



...and the most f*cked up part is that JACOB IS GOING AROUND WITH A F*CKING TOPHAT
And what is so ****ed up about that? You are aware that tophats were ridiculously popular during that time period? Jacob is actually really blending in, unlike Ezio who stuck out like a sore thumb.



But my question is why do they put a game in a time period where they have to take away all these important Assassins creed elements.

They didn't take any important AC elements away.

EmbodyingSeven5
09-13-2015, 12:15 AM
Well, you know... we already had guns in those games (excluding AC1). Ezio has the Hidden Gun in AC2, and some guards already had guns in Brotherhood and Revelations.

I hate when people say this ( no offense :p ). When they were in AC2 - R they were present but they weren't shoved in your face as much as they are now. Every single guard didn't run around with them and they were put into the Assassins arsenal more smoother, alla the Hidden gun instead of AC 3s- AC Ss pistols strapped onto the assassin. Yes, I know they probably DID actually have guns that present but that's the point. Why are we this modern in the AC games so soon? AC was about exploring our ancestors memories and now are ancestors aren't as "ancient" as Id like. This comes down to personal opinions though.

Kaschra
09-13-2015, 01:10 AM
I hate when people say this ( no offense :p ). When they were in AC2 - R they were present but they weren't shoved in your face as much as they are now. Every single guard didn't run around with them and they were put into the Assassins arsenal more smoother, alla the Hidden gun instead of AC 3s- AC Ss pistols strapped onto the assassin. Yes, I know they probably DID actually have guns that present but that's the point. Why are we this modern in the AC games so soon? AC was about exploring our ancestors memories and now are ancestors aren't as "ancient" as Id like. This comes down to personal opinions though.

But it's true, the guns already existed since AC2 :P
I also really don't mind it being so modern.

Farlander1991
09-13-2015, 01:27 AM
When they were in AC2 - R they were present but they weren't shoved in your face as much as they are now. Every single guard didn't run around with them

That can apply only in AC2 where the gun appears late in the game and other enemies still don't have them. I've replayed ACB recently, and guns are really prominent there already. Like at the least half of the rooftop guards are with guns, while Ezio frequently uses hidden gun in his combat killing animation (not to mention the double kills that use the gun as well), and our Assassin recruits eventually get guns as well (which makes quite a bit of fights turn into shootouts). And in ACR, which I am replaying right now, guns are just over the place. EVERY rooftop guard is with a rifle (they also all have bombs which are for all intent and purposes grenades), pretty much every Templar Den has marksmen/snipers (which are THE most accurate snipers ever in the AC series if they get to fire at you), all Janisarries have pistols which they use when not in active battle with the Assassin, and not to mention that the plot itself involves shipments of guns. Oh, and Den Defense has quite a bit of shootouts due to marksmen being on both sides there. So, while you still can say that the guns weren't prominent in AC2, that's absolutely not true in case of ACB and ACR.

Pri_Fuller
09-13-2015, 02:35 AM
I don't like the gun thing either. Swords and arrows/darts are much more fun!

Medieval japan would be so cool... Ninja assassins! LOL

kosmoscreed
09-13-2015, 10:08 AM
Makes no sense to have no guns or gun-like tools in some of the periods the games take place. I have no problem with that, I do have problems with poison, sleep darts or darts that makes the guards attack each other, I think that is more OP than the guns.

BananaBlighter
09-13-2015, 10:14 AM
They didn't take any important AC elements away.

Yes they did. They made stealth obsolete by introducing the rope launcher, the volt bombs, and the chameleon ability. :(

Don't really care about the guns though...

VestigialLlama4
09-13-2015, 10:35 AM
I think the main thing is not just about guns or knives, its about the fact that the stealth isn't made into something more comprehensive, like say destroying evidence, masking gunshots with ambient surroundings and other stuff you think an Assassin would take care of. Or you know that Assassins use untracable bullets or that the bullets they use isn't meant for long range. Something that can make it cohere.

Like the Bombs in Revelation with its multiple shells and casings and purpose is a good example of how Assassins could use armaments.

BananaBlighter
09-13-2015, 11:13 AM
I think the main thing is not just about guns or knives, its about the fact that the stealth isn't made into something more comprehensive, like say destroying evidence, masking gunshots with ambient surroundings and other stuff you think an Assassin would take care of. Or you know that Assassins use untracable bullets or that the bullets they use isn't meant for long range. Something that can make it cohere.

Like the Bombs in Revelation with its multiple shells and casings and purpose is a good example of how Assassins could use armaments.

That's another good point I definitely agree with. Why do we need the ability to carry bodies again, when guards actually do not care if they see a dead body. They may say, "What's goin' on here,", look side to side, but then say, It's probably nothin',". We should be able to take advantage of the dark (if the chameleon ability had a timer*, only worked in the dark, and only worked against a wall, I would accept it), or surrounding sounds, (for example enemies don't notice gunshots, or much noise at all, when a train goes by).

*if you're in an enemy's line of sight for more than three seconds, they start detecting you as if you were just in stealth mode, meaning that timing has to be perfect.

VestigialLlama4
09-13-2015, 11:35 AM
That's another good point I definitely agree with. Why do we need the ability to carry bodies again, when guards actually do not care if they see a dead body. They may say, "What's goin' on here,", look side to side, but then say, It's probably nothin',". We should be able to take advantage of the dark (if the chameleon ability had a timer*, only worked in the dark, and only worked against a wall, I would accept it), or surrounding sounds, (for example enemies don't notice gunshots, or much noise at all, when a train goes by).

*if you're in an enemy's line of sight for more than three seconds, they start detecting you as if you were just in stealth mode, meaning that timing has to be perfect.

Exactly, like the eagle vision supposedly gives a sense of sounds and movements around you. It's just for show all the time and an aesthetic thing rather than gameplay.

Theoretically the Assassins should be able to be so good that you don't kill anyone but your targets but in the games that's not possible. We have not yet had an AC game where you can ghost through the entire open world, i.e. you can freeroam the open world, do side missions, do collectibles, do main missions, without being seen and/or killing anyone but mission targets.

The sad part is that developers are locked into thinking that "New features = New weapons". That's not a fault of ubisoft and AC specifically its common across the industry. I am thinking a 20th Century game would create missions where you have to kill your target using specific tools and implements and you can choose your tools but once you choose you have to do that mission as per your choice. That's more Assassin-y. I mean that was the original logic of the Hidden Blade, a concealed weapon that only the Assassins knew how to use really well and which left no trace since the weapon wasn't left at the scene of the crime. The Hidden Gun is similar, its the ace up the hole that the others don't see coming and which can scare away guards. The Assassins being armed to their teeth also defeats the logic of such cool moves as disarming. I mean I always thought that Assassins taking away the sword of their opponents and using that to whack out their enemies and dropping the sword is way more badass. Templar: "You don't carry swords," Assassin: "No you carry my sword for me...thanks!" After all nobody expects the Assassin Brotherhood because their chief weapon is surprise.

EmptyCrustacean
09-13-2015, 12:35 PM
I think people think they want to go back to simpler times of swords and throwing knives but trust me, a lot of people wouldn't like it. We take guns and quick range weapons for granted. Guns are efficient and fast. Taking them away will slow down the combat immensely if you're a Rambo type. If you're a stealth player like me you probably don't use it anyway.

EmbodyingSeven5
09-13-2015, 04:11 PM
Yes they did. They made stealth obsolete by introducing the rope launcher, the volt bombs, and the chameleon ability. :(

Don't really care about the guns though...

After seeing more gameplay, I think the rope launcher will help stealth. The cities are much larger now and way harder to traverse. Maybe it will help.


I think people think they want to go back to simpler times of swords and throwing knives but trust me, a lot of people wouldn't like it. We take guns and quick range weapons for granted. Guns are efficient and fast. Taking them away will slow down the combat immensely if you're a Rambo type. If you're a stealth player like me you probably don't use it anyway.

AC is filled with combat. The stealth in AC games are not very well done or "good" either. I had fun in AC and AC2 and I almost never used guns in combat. I also like the more ancient look and feel of AC. I know I want a game less modernized then the more recent instalments.

CrossedEagle
09-13-2015, 05:20 PM
JACOB IS GOING AROUND WITH A F*CKING TOPHAT and can only use the assassins hood in stealth mode.


Well if the point of hoods are stealth, but wearing them in Victorian London raises suspicion wouldn't that defeat the original purpose of the hood?

SixKeys
09-13-2015, 06:06 PM
The problem with stealth is that they've pretty much dropped the social aspect of it. People don't stop to look at a dead body on the street, they just step over it, they don't comment on the hooded man climbing up a church wall, hiding in plain sight has been replaced with invisibility skill etc. They're trying to make AC more like Splinter Cell but with dumber AI which just doesn't work. When social stealth, not vanilla stealth, was still key, it wasn't such a huge stretch of imagination that guards would forget your face as soon as you disappeared into the crowd. It IS a stretch when Evie is literally crouching 3 feet away with a guard facing her direction and he can't see her because she's just that good at being stealthy. :rolleyes: It wasn't a stretch in the first game to imagine that climbing a wall would make people sit up and take notice (and even pelt you with rocks) but climbing a ladder was less suspicious. They had rules that made sense in a social context. Sometimes they were a bit silly, but less silly than killing lots of people in broad daylight and nobody even blinks at your actions.

BananaBlighter
09-13-2015, 06:23 PM
After seeing more gameplay, I think the rope launcher will help stealth. The cities are much larger now and way harder to traverse. Maybe it will help.

I definitely agree it's great for free-roam, but in stealth, especially in that tower of London mission, getting around is too easy. In the older games, a classic problem you would face is how to get from one building without arousing suspicion from the guards down below, and the snipers all around you. Now this no longer requires anymore thought, you just zoom across without anybody noticing. Apart from using cover (what I call indoor stealth), and social stealth, this is the only other form of stealth and now it has been removed. No more taking to the rooftops, looking around, and making decisions and finding a clever path to you target...:(


The problem with stealth is that they've pretty much dropped the social aspect of it. People don't stop to look at a dead body on the street, they just step over it, they don't comment on the hooded man climbing up a church wall, hiding in plain sight has been replaced with invisibility skill etc. They're trying to make AC more like Splinter Cell but with dumber AI which just doesn't work. When social stealth, not vanilla stealth, was still key, it wasn't such a huge stretch of imagination that guards would forget your face as soon as you disappeared into the crowd. It IS a stretch when Evie is literally crouching 3 feet away with a guard facing her direction and he can't see her because she's just that good at being stealthy. :rolleyes: It wasn't a stretch in the first game to imagine that climbing a wall would make people sit up and take notice (and even pelt you with rocks) but climbing a ladder was less suspicious. They had rules that made sense in a social context. Sometimes they were a bit silly, but less silly than killing lots of people in broad daylight and nobody even blinks at your actions.

This too, though I find vanilla stealth very fun too. My playstyle in Unity was taking to the rooftops, dealing with all the snipers first, and then dropping down below at the most suitable time and place. Because parkour is the most appealing of the core pillars to me, I like to incorporate it as much as I can in stealth, and this along with social stealth, is the form of stealth that is unique to other stealth games that only use cover to cover 'indoor stealth'.

Farlander1991
09-13-2015, 06:27 PM
The problem with stealth is that they've pretty much dropped the social aspect of it. People don't stop to look at a dead body on the street, they just step over it, they don't comment on the hooded man climbing up a church wall, hiding in plain sight has been replaced with invisibility skill etc. They're trying to make AC more like Splinter Cell but with dumber AI which just doesn't work. When social stealth, not vanilla stealth, was still key, it wasn't such a huge stretch of imagination that guards would forget your face as soon as you disappeared into the crowd. It IS a stretch when Evie is literally crouching 3 feet away with a guard facing her direction and he can't see her because she's just that good at being stealthy. :rolleyes: It wasn't a stretch in the first game to imagine that climbing a wall would make people sit up and take notice (and even pelt you with rocks) but climbing a ladder was less suspicious. They had rules that made sense in a social context. Sometimes they were a bit silly, but less silly than killing lots of people in broad daylight and nobody even blinks at your actions.

To be honest, the social aspect kinda stopped to really matter back in AC2. Like, in AC2 it was there as a thematic element, but for all intents and purposes crowds are for the most part the same as bushes - hiding spots that you can hide in in low profile but not in high profile. A beggar wouldn't throw rock at you if you just ignore them, or something like that. That said, the social aspect was far from perfect in AC1 as well, on replaying it I noticed a lot of things like the crowd that newly appeared in a place of event not reacting to dead bodies or even sometimes fights. Still, it was a good concept of being hidden when acting in a socially acceptable way, I want more expansions on that.

I remember back in the days of AC3&AC4 people were so adamant on getting a dedicated crouch button, and to me the question is - does it really matter? I've always been for contextual crouching, be it in bushes or maybe automatically in restricted non-civilian areas, though there are drawbacks to that, crouch implies more traditional stealth. I always wanted more social stealth.

I want our gear to define how suspicious we can be. With swords and some armor and what not we have more tools and health, but are far more suspicious. I want to tell a drunk that somebody called him ugly and him starting a commotion that attracts attention of civilians and guards. I want groups getting awkward and stopping working if we're blended with them too much ('who the hell are you?!'). I want to scare horses so they'd gallop on the streets creating a distraction. I want to plant weapons on civilians to distract attention of following guards long enough until I can disappear by the time they realize their mistake. I want the crowd to be more than just a dynamic hiding spot which we can influence with some tools. I want the crowds to be a system themselves. It's a very hard system to create, but I think it's possible.

EmptyCrustacean
09-13-2015, 06:36 PM
AC is filled with combat. The stealth in AC games are not very well done or "good" either. I had fun in AC and AC2 and I almost never used guns in combat. I also like the more ancient look and feel of AC. I know I want a game less modernized then the more recent instalments.

But that's AC2. It was difficult to use that gun because it was slow. I'm talking AC3 onwards where you're just capping guys all over the place. I don't doubt that you will more than cope going back but A LOT will not and I can just picture the whining right now.

BananaBlighter
09-13-2015, 06:56 PM
To be honest, the social aspect kinda stopped to really matter back in AC2. Like, in AC2 it was there as a thematic element, but for all intents and purposes crowds are for the most part the same as bushes - hiding spots that you can hide in in low profile but not in high profile. A beggar wouldn't throw rock at you if you just ignore them, or something like that. That said, the social aspect was far from perfect in AC1 as well, on replaying it I noticed a lot of things like the crowd that newly appeared in a place of event not reacting to dead bodies or even sometimes fights. Still, it was a good concept of being hidden when acting in a socially acceptable way, I want more expansions on that.

I remember back in the days of AC3&AC4 people were so adamant on getting a dedicated crouch button, and to me the question is - does it really matter? I've always been for contextual crouching, be it in bushes or maybe automatically in restricted non-civilian areas, though there are drawbacks to that, crouch implies more traditional stealth. I always wanted more social stealth.

I want our gear to define how suspicious we can be. With swords and some armor and what not we have more tools and health, but are far more suspicious. I want to tell a drunk that somebody called him ugly and him starting a commotion that attracts attention of civilians and guards. I want groups getting awkward and stopping working if we're blended with them too much ('who the hell are you?!'). I want to scare horses so they'd gallop on the streets creating a distraction. I want to plant weapons on civilians to distract attention of following guards long enough until I can disappear by the time they realize their mistake. I want the crowd to be more than just a dynamic hiding spot which we can influence with some tools. I want the crowds to be a system themselves. It's a very hard system to create, but I think it's possible.

Yes, social stealth does have a lot of potential, I've been playing a load of AC1 recently, it's really funny and tense when your just walking around the guards that are looking for you, but theyhave no idea because I'm simply bowing my head.

Farlander1991
09-13-2015, 07:13 PM
Yes, social stealth does have a lot of potential, I've been playing a load of AC1 recently, it's really funny and tense when your just walking around the guards that are looking for you, but theyhave no idea because I'm simply bowing my head.

Ok, that particular part of social stealth is kinda ridiculous. I understand the idea - trade speed for being unnoticed, but what's going on in the minds of the guards when they see it?
- Okay, we need to find the assassin, he's a hooded man in white robes.
- Hey, is that him? He's got white robes and he's hooded.
- Who, him? Nah, that's just a monk.
- But he's got a sword with him!
- Probably to protect himself from the Assassin or something.
- And a knife on his back!
- Listen, this town became pretty dangerous since the Assassins started acting a lot here, so give him a break.
- And look at all those knives on the belt and shoulder!
- What are you implying at?
- And look, blood on his armcloth! Probably killed the pursuers who saw him!
- Dude. He's a godly man, ok? He's praying.
- But--
- HE'S PRAYING. Now, let's find the Assassin.

Which, now that I think about, Altair's blend button is in essence Evie's stealth mode, only you can actually move with it. Seriously, as long as you're blended and don't bump into people with boxes or stuff like that, guards will NEVER attack you, you're essentially invisible in the middle of the street. (also, you can cheat with it, if you mix running with blending, there won't be enough time for the enemies to realize you're an Assassin and attack you)

BananaBlighter
09-13-2015, 07:35 PM
Ok, that particular part of social stealth is kinda ridiculous. I understand the idea - trade speed for being unnoticed, but what's going on in the minds of the guards when they see it?
- Okay, we need to find the assassin, he's a hooded man in white robes.
- Hey, is that him? He's got white robes and he's hooded.
- Who, him? Nah, that's just a monk.
- But he's got a sword with him!
- Probably to protect himself from the Assassin or something.
- And a knife on his back!
- Listen, this town became pretty dangerous since the Assassins started acting a lot here, so give him a break.
- And look at all those knives on the belt and shoulder!
- What are you implying at?
- And look, blood on his armcloth! Probably killed the pursuers who saw him!
- Dude. He's a godly man, ok? He's praying.
- But--
- HE'S PRAYING. Now, let's find the Assassin.

Which, now that I think about, Altair's blend button is in essence Evie's stealth mode, only you can actually move with it. Seriously, as long as you're blended and don't bump into people with boxes or stuff like that, guards will NEVER attack you, you're essentially invisible in the middle of the street. (also, you can cheat with it, if you mix running with blending, there won't be enough time for the enemies to realize you're an Assassin and attack you)

Lol yeah it is like Evie's skill a bit, though it isn't usable on rooftops and stuff which is where I send most of my time. Evie's ability works in restricted areas, but even monks aren't suppose to be in restricted areas.

I just generally wish stealth was more realistic and in depth. Because there is so little we can do and take advantage of, it's kinda sad that because of this guards have to be made extra stupid.

Farlander1991
09-13-2015, 07:40 PM
Lol yeah it is like Evie's skill a bit, though it isn't usable on rooftops and stuff which is where I send most of my time.

Well, you don't really need much stealth on rooftops. If you want to get unnoticed by rooftop guards, running is usually more than sufficient to hide out of their view.


Evie's ability works in restricted areas, but even monks aren't suppose to be in restricted areas.

It works in what future games would consider restricted areas as well. The only barrier is the guard post of the 2/4 guards that guard the entrance, but if you're past it - that's it. I remember in Sibrand mission an archer that was too far away for the knife noticed my while I was on one of the ships, so I just starting praying there, and he was like, 'oh, a monk is praying on that abandoned ship for blockade in the middle of the harbor, seems legit' and didn't pay attention to me (though if I've been on one of the watch towers that would probably not work as they're considered to be roofs).

svenskbear
09-13-2015, 07:58 PM
What makes swords more Assassin's Creed than guns?


I agree the top hat is extremely silly though. It's fine for blending but who in their right mind would go free-running across rooftops wearing a freakin' top hat? Suspention of disbelief can only go so far...

Well, there were no guns in the first 2 games and those are the games that really are AC (imo) and now when they bring out a revolver in to the game i just think like wtf, why? I want a sword fight in a AC games not a gun fight (cause then i can go and play read dead). For me it takes away a part of AC.


The latest time period is fine.
The game evolves, it's ok.


But it evolves to a shooter... kinda

BananaBlighter
09-13-2015, 08:14 PM
But it evolves to a shooter... kinda

Syndicate looks nothing like a shooter, but who knows what will happen in the next game...

Seriously though, while you could spend the whole game only using the revolver (and epically fail if you do so) I doubt Ubi would ever make AC in to a shooter, it's impossible. They've done some pretty dumb stuff in the past, but y'know, this is extreme...

svenskbear
09-13-2015, 08:15 PM
Well, you know... we already had guns in those games (excluding AC1). Ezio has the Hidden Gun in AC2, and some guards already had guns in Brotherhood and Revelations.


And what is so ****ed up about that? You are aware that tophats were ridiculously popular during that time period? Jacob is actually really blending in, unlike Ezio who stuck out like a sore thumb.


They didn't take any important AC elements away.[/QUOTE]


Yes i know there are guns in ACB and ACR but they are still acting like an guy with a crossbow or bow and arrow. But when almost every enemy has one it doesnt feel right.

I actualy like the top hat. The reason i dont like it is because he is an Assassin and then he should dress like one. Ofc he would look a bit dum with a hood al the time.. but thats why! Thats why they shouldnt be in this timeline!

They kinda did.. imo


i hate when people say this ( no offense :p ). When they were in ac2 - r they were present but they weren't shoved in your face as much as they are now. Every single guard didn't run around with them and they were put into the assassins arsenal more smoother, alla the hidden gun instead of ac 3s- ac ss pistols strapped onto the assassin. Yes, i know they probably did actually have guns that present but that's the point. Why are we this modern in the ac games so soon? Ac was about exploring our ancestors memories and now are ancestors aren't as "ancient" as id like. This comes down to personal opinions though.

exactly!!!!


I think people think they want to go back to simpler times of swords and throwing knives but trust me, a lot of people wouldn't like it. We take guns and quick range weapons for granted. Guns are efficient and fast. Taking them away will slow down the combat immensely if you're a Rambo type. If you're a stealth player like me you probably don't use it anyway.


Jus treplace the guns with Bows, crossbows, throwing knifes etc.



I want our gear to define how suspicious we can be. With swords and some armor and what not we have more tools and health, but are far more suspicious. I want to tell a drunk that somebody called him ugly and him starting a commotion that attracts attention of civilians and guards. I want groups getting awkward and stopping working if we're blended with them too much ('who the hell are you?!'). I want to scare horses so they'd gallop on the streets creating a distraction. I want to plant weapons on civilians to distract attention of following guards long enough until I can disappear by the time they realize their mistake. I want the crowd to be more than just a dynamic hiding spot which we can influence with some tools. I want the crowds to be a system themselves. It's a very hard system to create, but I think it's possible.

I agree!


Syndicate looks nothing like a shooter, but who knows what will happen in the next game...

Seriously though, while you could spend the whole game only using the revolver (and epically fail if you do so) I doubt Ubi would ever make AC in to a shooter, it's impossible. They've done some pretty dumb stuff in the past, but y'know, this is extreme...

i didn't mean that they will make a AC shooter. but i just dont like the idea of a half automatic gun in a AC game..

SixKeys
09-13-2015, 10:33 PM
Svenskbear: I would advise against posting many replies in a row, as that's against the rules. If you want to quote multiple people, just copy and paste their quotes into one post. :)




Which, now that I think about, Altair's blend button is in essence Evie's stealth mode, only you can actually move with it. Seriously, as long as you're blended and don't bump into people with boxes or stuff like that, guards will NEVER attack you, you're essentially invisible in the middle of the street. (also, you can cheat with it, if you mix running with blending, there won't be enough time for the enemies to realize you're an Assassin and attack you)

It is silly, but AC1 was the first so it can be forgiven for experimenting. Syndicate is more than 10 games down the line and instead of improving social stealth they've gotten rid of it almost entirely. I had high hopes for Unity's disguise skill, but it turned out to be nothing more than a magical morphing skill.

I disagree that AC2's social stealth was downplayed. The game was easier overall and the AI dumbed down, which were the bigger problems as later games have followed suite ever since. But they did still focus more on the social aspect of stealth. Ezio could blend with more groups than just monks, he could give money to silence town criers and minstrels and he could hire different groups to distract guards. At least they were still trying. Ever since AC3, perhaps even earlier, the social aspects have become less and less important. The cities used to feel alive with all the people reacting to you, now they're pretty but full of dead-eyed zombies who don't give a crap no matter what you do. That's what every other open world game does. AC's emphasis on believable human interaction is what made it unique.

HDinHB
09-13-2015, 11:36 PM
... I doubt Ubi would ever make AC in to a shooter, it's impossible. They've done some pretty dumb stuff in the past, but y'know, this is extreme...
If this happens, I will blame you. And there will be consequences.


I actualy like the top hat. The reason i dont like it is because he is an Assassin and then he should dress like one.

Problem solved: http://www.merchoid.com/product/assassins-creed-syndicate-victorian-top-hat/
Official Assassin attire (hidden for space, not a game spoiler)
http://www.merchoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/FC199100ACS_2.jpghttp://www.merchoid.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/FC199100ACS_02_2.jpg
I kinda like the lining.


Svenskbear: I would advise against posting many replies in a row, as that's against the rules. If you want to quote multiple people, just copy and paste their quotes into one post. :)

Well, it does give the mods something to do when not deleting apam. I think Loco finds it relaxing. :rolleyes:

Sven, at the bottom of each post, to the right of the Reply and Reply With Quote buttons, is a barely visible quote button with a + sign next to it. Click the quote + button on all the posts youu want to reply to, and then click Reply With Quote on the last one and it does most of the work for you.



It is silly, but AC1 was the first so it can be forgiven for experimenting. Syndicate is more than 10 games down the line and instead of improving social stealth they've gotten rid of it almost entirely. I had high hopes for Unity's disguise skill, but it turned out to be nothing more than a magical morphing skill.

I disagree that AC2's social stealth was downplayed. The game was easier overall and the AI dumbed down, which were the bigger problems as later games have followed suite ever since. But they did still focus more on the social aspect of stealth. Ezio could blend with more groups than just monks, he could give money to silence town criers and minstrels and he could hire different groups to distract guards. At least they were still trying. Ever since AC3, perhaps even earlier, the social aspects have become less and less important. The cities used to feel alive with all the people reacting to you, now they're pretty but full of dead-eyed zombies who don't give a crap no matter what you do. That's what every other open world game does. AC's emphasis on believable human interaction is what made it unique.

"He must be late...and she must be beautiful." I miss the prostitutes and other factions, I almost miss the beggars, the crazy people from AC1, this minstrels from AC2. I do not miss the box carriers who would intentionally swerve into your path so you would knock their box to the ground and attract guards. I do not miss the demon children from AC3, but hope there are urchins in ACS. AC3 did add contextual animations like Connor leaning against walls that were a nice touch. I missed those in AC4, so i was happy to see a variation return in ACU. There is a lot of life going on in the streets of Paris, but aside from a few British tourists occasionally calling out "Arno,", it doesn't usually feel like he is part of it.

Farlander1991
09-13-2015, 11:43 PM
But they did still focus more on the social aspect of stealth. Ezio could blend with more groups than just monks, he could give money to silence town criers and minstrels and he could hire different groups to distract guards.

Well, those things don't really advance the social aspect of stealth, they create a social theme of stealth, that's two different things. Monks in AC1 are essentially hiding spots, this is just applied to the whole crowd in AC2. While guard distraction, well, you can distract guards with courtesans or bombs, mechanically there's no particular difference, it's just courtesans are a better social theme. And I'm not saying those things aren't needed in a social stealth game, AC2 certainly does good by introducing them, but I don't think that's what social stealth is and how it is advanced.

I guess when discussing social stealth, we need to define what social stealth is. The concept introduced in AC1 is essentially the following: if you act in a socially acceptable way, then you're invisible. If you show deviations from this acceptability, then you become visible, and the more deviations you have, the more of a threat you are. So, in essence, there's a system - the crowd, and if you don't act according to the system, you're visible. This doesn't really advance from AC1 in any of the games (well, at least much), with the exception of the multiplayer mode which takes that precise social stealth concept (though it still a bit basic, it works more so because of the human interactivity).

So, from this a system is derived.
The crowd walks, so walking is acceptable - running, less acceptable.
Pushing is not acceptable.
Loitering in one place is not acceptable.
Harassing strangers or breaking their personal space a lot is not acceptable.
Weapons is not acceptable.
Pulling down wanted posters is not acceptable (which AC2 and other games have :) )
Etc.

This is all general of course, but the gist of it - there's a list of acceptable and unacceptable things, and the more unacceptable things you make, the more visible you are (stuff like player running in circles should be socially unacceptable as well, for example). Now from here, we add systems that: a) make the player not the only person who can act in an unacceptable way (like Unity tries to do with its events), b) give the player instruments to make others act in a not acceptable way. Which, in case of AC2, there's a pretty good example: throwing money. Throwing money is a more social stealth mechanic than 'distract guards with groups', it's a mechanic that 'breaks the system' - makes others act in a socially unacceptable way, which puts the guards' attention to them, so by virtue of acting in a socially acceptable way while others are unacceptable, you can get past them without being noticed.

And from there we go into creating systems that make us go from visible/threat state back to invisible (losing yourself in a crowd by blending with it, etc.) and additional manipulation tools like groups/bombs/etc. Oh, and not to forget that when it comes to interaction with the systems, it's not just the relationship between us and threats/guards that matters, but with the system/crowd itself (a good example is in AC1 if we push away beggars they'll angrily throw rocks at us).

But, yeah, this is how I think social stealth can and should be advanced - by advancing the concept of acting in social acceptance, and then going from there. While AC1 sequels, AC2 including, do dabble in that as well, they tend to advance being hidden over that, which is of course needed, but that's not what advances the social aspect of stealth.

It's late and I'm sleepy, but I hope what I said and how I formulated makes sense.

BananaBlighter
09-14-2015, 04:47 PM
If this happens, I will blame you. And there will be consequences.

What!!! :nonchalance:

...Actually wait.

UBI MAKE AC FPS PLZ PLZ PLZ!!! I'll give you free cupcakes!

Jessigirl2013
09-14-2015, 06:29 PM
Two words...

Modern day


..

.

Sort it out ubi!!!!!:mad:

SixKeys
09-15-2015, 04:35 AM
This is all general of course, but the gist of it - there's a list of acceptable and unacceptable things, and the more unacceptable things you make, the more visible you are (stuff like player running in circles should be socially unacceptable as well, for example). Now from here, we add systems that: a) make the player not the only person who can act in an unacceptable way (like Unity tries to do with its events), b) give the player instruments to make others act in a not acceptable way. Which, in case of AC2, there's a pretty good example: throwing money. Throwing money is a more social stealth mechanic than 'distract guards with groups', it's a mechanic that 'breaks the system' - makes others act in a socially unacceptable way, which puts the guards' attention to them, so by virtue of acting in a socially acceptable way while others are unacceptable, you can get past them without being noticed..

All good points. I can see what you mean. You seem to be looking more at the mechanics like a game designer whereas I was more listing all the features that make it appear the world is reacting to the player, even if some of them essentially serve the same function (like monks and courtesans just being another hiding spot etc.) I would like to see them do more with the underlying crowd mechanics and social acceptability/unacceptability concept rather than just plain stealth. Of course, some historical eras might make this more challenging as civil unrest makes lots of people behave in unacceptable ways. It wouldn't have made sense for Arno to be the only suspicious person in revolutionary Paris with all the upheaval on the streets. Victorian England would be ripe for that kind of stuff though, with the Victorians' strict codes of conduct, class system and generally peaceful political climate. Imagine having to change your behavior depending on whether you're blending in with upper-class snobs vs. poor factory workers. :D I've said it before, this was one thing where Liberation had a great basis for something with its Lady/Slave/Assassin persona system, yet they've never brought it back for some reason. Other games have experimented with similar stuff too, like Ezio pretending to be an actor in a play and having to follow strict rules so as not to blow his cover.

Farlander1991
09-15-2015, 07:47 AM
You seem to be looking more at the mechanics like a game designer whereas I was more listing all the features that make it appear the world is reacting to the player, even if some of them essentially serve the same function (like monks and courtesans just being another hiding spot etc.)

Yeah. What kinda bothers me a bit is the realization that in a lot of the assassinations/missions (not all of them of course, but quite a bit) where social stealth is used nothing really changes if you replace people with bushes. Like, of course this is an exaggeration, but generally speaking a lot of things will remain the same, with groups of people transforming into patches of bushes. It kinda shows how social stealth is more of a thematic element rather than a functional one.


Of course, some historical eras might make this more challenging as civil unrest makes lots of people behave in unacceptable ways. It wouldn't have made sense for Arno to be the only suspicious person in revolutionary Paris with all the upheaval on the streets.

Well, that's a good point, though the system could work very well the same, it's just the civil unrest sets a threshold in visibility/deviation. I.e. in places with riots things like navigation in high profile won't be noticed, so only extreme things will make you visible (like murder or something like that). And in more peaceful places in Paris (there's quite a few regions where the civil unrest is not high or not as high), the threshold returns to the standard one and high profile navigation makes you visible. Stuff like that.

SixKeys
09-15-2015, 07:07 PM
Yeah. What kinda bothers me a bit is the realization that in a lot of the assassinations/missions (not all of them of course, but quite a bit) where social stealth is used nothing really changes if you replace people with bushes. Like, of course this is an exaggeration, but generally speaking a lot of things will remain the same, with groups of people transforming into patches of bushes. It kinda shows how social stealth is more of a thematic element rather than a functional one.

Even if they serve the same function mechanically, the theme changes the whole feel of those missions. I find the idea of hiding among groups of people far more enticing than hiding in bushes. Thinking of missions like AC2's assassination of Uberto Alberti and hiding among the monks in the Vatican. They could have replaced people with bushes, but it wouldn't have been nearly as atmospheric. It's also why AC4's tailing missions feel so samey. I don't think there's necessarily more of them than in the Ezio games, AC2 and ACB have a lot of tailing missions. But some of those missions are more memorable because you feel more like an assassin hiding in plain sight.

Farlander1991
09-15-2015, 07:10 PM
Even if they serve the same function mechanically, the theme changes the whole feel of those missions. I find the idea of hiding among groups of people far more enticing than hiding in bushes. Thinking of missions like AC2's assassination of Uberto Alberti and hiding among the monks in the Vatican. They could have replaced people with bushes, but it wouldn't have been nearly as atmospheric. It's also why AC4's tailing missions feel so samey. I don't think there's necessarily more of them than in the Ezio games, AC2 and ACB have a lot of tailing missions. But some of those missions are more memorable because you feel more like an assassin hiding in plain sight.

I agree with that, and this is why I'm saying that I'm not saying that they aren't important for the experience (woah, complicated sentence). But I don't consider that as an advancement of the social stealth itself. Anyway, I don't really have anything more to say than what I've already said :D