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View Full Version : Stukas' gunners. Where they Ace's in real life?



Maple_Tiger
02-01-2004, 08:58 PM
I was kind of wondering if the gunners where as good as they are in FB as they where in real life

For example, being able to take out your engine and control cables or just your engine with one shot.

Its so rediculas now that i have to take the Stukas out of my coops lol. There is just too much complaning lol

Maple_Tiger
02-01-2004, 08:58 PM
I was kind of wondering if the gunners where as good as they are in FB as they where in real life

For example, being able to take out your engine and control cables or just your engine with one shot.

Its so rediculas now that i have to take the Stukas out of my coops lol. There is just too much complaning lol

A.K.Davis
02-01-2004, 09:20 PM
Just last night I read an account of No. 60 sqn Blenheim turret gunner Flt Sgt "Jock" McLuckie's exploits on the 22nd of May, 1942. Originally part of a 3-ship flight, Jock's Blenheim became separated and flew on to attack a Japanese airfield at Akyab, Burma alone. As the Blenheim dropped it's payload on the airfield at low-level, the crew saw a number of 64th Sentai Ki-43s scrambling to intercept. The Blenheim fled at wave-top height over the Bay of Bengal, but was soon caught by Sgt maj Yo****o Yasuda (an ace with 10 kills) who dove on the Blenheim. McLuckie hit Yasuda in his first pass forcing him to return to base. Capt Masuzo Otani followed with the next attack, but again McLuckie fended off the Ki-43 with a well-aimed burst. After 30-minutes of continuous chase and combat, a three plane group of Hayabusas led by Lt Col Tateo Kato intercepted the lone Blenheim and swooped into the attack. As Kato pulled out of his pass, McLuckie raked the belly of his aircraft, setting it on fire. Kato apparently believed he stood no chance of making it back to the mainland and was seen to purposefully dive his stricken Hayabusa into the sea. His wingmen returned to Akyab bearing the terrible news. Kato was the beloved leader of the 64th Sentai and a victor in at least 18 aerial victories, although his policy was to disallow individual kills and he likely had many more.

The Blenheim returned to base safely.

--AKD

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Agamemnon22
02-01-2004, 09:58 PM
Try being the aft gunner in any plane. It's really not difficult to hit something that's moving very slowly with respect to you. More difficult for lateral gunners, but rear gunner is monkeywork. And the engine is usualy the first to go, since it's the part absorbing most of the lead you're dropping.

Fillmore
02-02-2004, 05:40 AM
Ya, the few dedicated Stuka fliers I know are dissapointed with the weakness of the AI, whenever the AI starts shooting they switch to the gunner position themselves becasue they are much better than the AI. I think the Il2s are the same. I'm not at all a dedicated bomber pilot, but the few times I've flown them i've found it quite easy to light up the fools that saddle on my 6.

I normally don't fly VVS but I have a couple times to even up sides and certainly have no problem with the Stukas rear gunner. Quite honestly their arc of fire is very limited and if they ever even shoot at you you are doing something horribly wrong (specifically you are attacking them from an angle you shouldn't be attacking from).

MiloMorai
02-02-2004, 06:18 AM
Nice story AKD, but just to give an alternate one, I give you a Wellington raid on Wilhelmshaven and Shillig Roads of 24 a/c of which 10 were lost and 3 severely damaged when intercepted by LW fighters.



Long live the Horse Clans.

Future-
02-02-2004, 06:26 AM
Too bad your example isn't good for anything without telling us how many LW planes attacked the group.

Besides, I think the average LW plane was heavier armored than the average Jap plane.

And of course, the LW pilots were better trained (at least during the first half of the war) and used group tactics.

S!

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MiloMorai
02-02-2004, 06:45 AM
Yes that is so about the Wellingtons. To keep the same ratio though, it would mean the LW used 72 a/c.

Is the Schweinefurt/Regensburg raid by B-17s a good exapmle then? All those hmgs on the B-17s......

If, as you say, the Ki-43s had heavier guns, how long would have the Blenheim have lasted. AKD's example is the exception, rather than the rule.

The Japanese pilots were well trained early in the war.



Long live the Horse Clans.

BerkshireHunt
02-02-2004, 08:32 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by MiloMorai:
Nice story AKD, but just to give an alternate one, I give you a Wellington raid on Wilhelmshaven and Shillig Roads of 24 a/c of which 10 were lost and 3 severely damaged when intercepted by LW fighters.

Milo,
If that is The Battle of the German Bight I read recently that the Wellingtons used on that raid were early ones which did not have powered rear turrets- they had fixed perspex gondolas instead which did not allow the guns to traverse horizontally. The article said this accounted for the early disastrous Wellington raids- the rear gunners simply couldn't get a bead on anything which wasn't on their 'six'.

MiloMorai
02-02-2004, 08:55 AM
Yes BH on Dec 18 1939. Further looking, I have found that the Wellingtons were intercepted by a/c from JG2 and ZG76. Two 109s were lost.

Not sure if they were MkIs or IAs. Did the IAs have the turret problem fixed? (new info which I did not know of, ta)



Long live the Horse Clans.

A.K.Davis
02-02-2004, 10:46 AM
Did I mention that McLuckie had never fired his guns in anger before this incident?

Of course it's an exception, not a rule, but I believe the original question was about what was possible in real life.

--AKD

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LuftKuhMist
02-02-2004, 12:06 PM
Galland said in his biography that the gunners on Luftwaffe planes were purely fulfilling a psychological role since in defense they totally non effective.

I think most of the time gunners were not very effective. Bombers constantly need an escort because gunners simply can't defend them well. Most unescorted raids often were catastrophic. In reality a loss rate of 30% is really catastrophic. In Il2 often AI raids have losses of 90% to 100%. In early war LW bombers fly high... hard to intercept. Actually I see them often at 4000 meters. This makes their raids most successful... eventually this efficiency decreases. Don't rely on gunners to save your ***.

As for stuka, I think the gunners are a waste of weight. The caliber isn't enought to be dangerous. In Il2 they can sometimes be a pain in the *** when you fly in slow fighters such as the polykarpovs but generally a Stuka is cannon fodder.

The most annoying bomber to attack is the PE2, especially in brewster. I once took ONE hit and my plane just blew up. Is the brewster too fragile now, by the way?

The thing which annoys me is the capacity of a B17 of disabling you too often on head on passes, which wasn't really possible in reality.



BTW, I once started a career in TB3. With the front gunner I killed the pilot of a Junkers88 passing at 800-1500 meters away with a random burst at their formation.

WhiskeyRiver
02-02-2004, 12:57 PM
There was a B-24 waist gunner over Italy who got 5 kills in a single sortie.

To kill me you've got to hit the heart Ramon--Clint F*cking Eastwood

A.K.Davis
02-02-2004, 01:33 PM
Take gunner "kill" claims with a grain of salt. I only posted the above story because the incident was confirmed by both sides.

--AKD

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[This message was edited by A.K.Davis on Mon February 02 2004 at 01:26 PM.]

LEXX_Luthor
02-02-2004, 02:14 PM
Well that story posted recently about Spit V pilots in the Med, they got beat up by Ju~88 rear gunners. And they gave an account of one gunner who kept firing as his burning plane dived into the water. Lets make sure Oleg doesn't read that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



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Oso2323
02-02-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
Well that story posted recently about Spit V pilots in the Med, they got beat up by Ju~88 rear gunners. And they gave an account of one gunner who kept firing as his burning plane dived into the water. Lets make sure Oleg doesn't read that. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

He probably has. I once flew 8 p-40's against 8 Me-323's and lost 2 planes on my side, plus my own. When RAF p-40's hit Rommel's supply planes in 1943 off Tunisia they suffered no losses (and they were escorted by bf-110's). In fact I tend to lose more AI planes against bombers - perhaps I should use them to escort the fighters (an old one, I know...)

LuftKuhMist
02-03-2004, 11:30 AM
The ME323 in FB is the best defended version. In the mediteranean theatre they did not have as much guns.

As for gunner kills, when you have a formation of B24s or B17s, you can have 15 guys aiming at the same target. When target goes down in smoke (even if the plane isn't even crashing) you can have 15 guys screaming: "I GOT ONE!".

lbhskier37
02-03-2004, 12:20 PM
It is funny how so many people complain about gunners in here, in real life would you park your plane on the dead six of a plane with 2 .303s less than 100m in front of you? When I fly the stuka online people do it all the time. I get more kills online by flying a stuka then in a fighter.

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Bogun
02-03-2004, 12:57 PM
Still, it brings very interesting point I also noticed it - it looks like there are two distinct gunnery modes One for AI controlled planes and the Other for plane controlled by live pilot in IL-2.

When plane is AI controlled plane all gunners are snipers, they hit a fly even if it approach from impossible angle.
When plane is Human controlled they seems to be able miss the barn, while shooting from the inside of it...

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Saburo_0
02-04-2004, 02:11 AM
Just FYI, but Starshoy posted in SimHQ that he will add afeature to set the AI of bombers to a lower level than fighters, so you can engage noob crews in Stukas & Il2 but dogifht with veteran or ace enemy fighters in campaign mode.
It will not be possible to have Ace Stuka pilots & noob gunners tho as the crew only has one rating.

Ankanor
02-04-2004, 03:10 AM
IIRC, British pilots from BoB said that the gunners of the bombers were very well trained and the machineguns had excellent balictic characteristics. I am quoting from memory but thats what one pilot said:"When we approached, the defence fire would be so dense that it seemed as if there was metal web. and you have to travel through it to get to the bombers" We should not forget that in reality you would have to face 100+ bombers with their respective escort in your squadron of Hurries. and you would attack from different sides to disperse defence fire.

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LeadSpitter_
02-05-2004, 01:25 PM
who was rudels tailgunner?

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Bobsqueek
02-05-2004, 02:04 PM
hmm


Ive always considered gunners as psycological measures, i.e. they would ward off fighters by shooting at them

you must admit you would think twice if a burst of .303 ammo whizzed past


youre not gonna say "its only a .303 bullet" and forget about it, it doesnt matter if it a 20mm or a .22 bullet it would scare the hell outta you if a few came your way

NorrisMcWhirter
09-16-2004, 10:54 AM
Hi,

What I find odd about it is how, if I *do* find myself coming in on a Stuka from the high 6 in a Hurri, the tail gunner can inflict a PK/heavy damage more quickly than I can kill the tail gunner with *all* those .303s.

Odd, because I have a large block of metal sitting in front of me + armoured glass whereas that guy is sitting with hardly any protection.

If the Stuka gunner was so effective, they wouldn't have been mauled so badly in the BoB (unless they were all beam attacks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Cheers,
Norris

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Kasdeya
09-16-2004, 11:11 AM
Norris, your reliving the past. Let it go, just let it go.

The last post before you is dated February. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif Big Forum burp.

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Maple_Tiger
09-16-2004, 03:55 PM
Good God this thread is old.


Since my last whine, I have not been sitting behind an enemy bomber getting shot at. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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VW-IceFire
09-16-2004, 04:24 PM
LOL, this is like my P-47 thread back in the day http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Stukas are hapless prey http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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PraetorHonoris
09-16-2004, 06:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
who was rudels tailgunner?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Until 1944 it was Oberfeldwebel (Master Sergeant) Erwin Hentschel. When he died, Oberstabsarzt Ernst Gadermann replaced him. Oberstabsarzt is a doctor (med.) in Hauptmann's rank (Captain).

Both were honored with the Knight's Cross.

Hentschel on the left,
http://www.pilotenbunker.de/Stuka/Rudel/1500.jpg

Gadermann on the right
http://www.bergstrombooks.elknet.pl/bc-rs/Pic/rudel.jpg

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Rab03
09-20-2004, 02:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
I was kind of wondering if the gunners where as good as they are in FB as they where in real life

For example, being able to take out your engine and control cables or just your engine with one shot.

Its so rediculas now that i have to take the Stukas out of my coops lol. There is just too much complaning lol<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif Don't know what actually happens in your coops, but several nights ago on greatergreen, I was roamin' the skies far away from heat of dogfight in my Stuka, searching for those ground units. Suddenly, few bullets flew right by me, so I immediately jumped to gunner's seat and turned gunner autopilot off (if circumstences allow, I shoot myself). Seeing this MiG (I guess) so close, just behind and below Stuka, made me turn autopilot on again just a split second later. Auto-gunner opened fire at slowly moving fighter from point blank range, with cockpit and pilot completely exposed, which resulted in pilot killed and smoking engine.

Top gunner in SM 79 of Yugoslav Royal Air Force fired 60 rounds at Fiat G50 diving on SM, when Fiat exploded like it had hit a brick wall. Two other Italian fighters hanged around a bit and returned home, not daring to attack wounded Yugoslav SM79 (AA made a 2m hole in SM's wing).

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Aaron_GT
09-20-2004, 06:05 AM
"Take gunner "kill" claims with a grain of salt."

Some gunner claims are inflated, some not. If the plane was alone and the records of the opposing force match, then you can verify it. On the other hand on the first major 8th AF raid 48 german fighters were claimed, reduced to 25 on further inspection, but the LW only actually lost 2!

Aaron_GT
09-20-2004, 06:23 AM
Milo:

If the Wellingtons were plain Mk. 1s then remember that the turrets were semi-remote controlled and were very difficult to hit anything with - the same sort of issue that led to the removal of the ventral turrent on most USAAF B25Cs.

p1ngu666
09-20-2004, 07:15 AM
i find the AI stuka's in coops to b sharp shooters.
one mangaged to hit my il2's oil cooler, when i was below it..

tehy toned down the gunners on human planes and b17's cos of teh whining

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PraetorHonoris
09-20-2004, 07:49 AM
Gunner AI is all the same http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

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He casts his eyes to heaven's blue,
From where past heroes hold the view,
And swears pugnaciously the oath,
You Rhine and I stay German, both.

Rab03
09-21-2004, 12:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Aaron_GT:
"Take gunner "kill" claims with a grain of salt."

Some gunner claims are inflated, some not. If the plane was alone and the records of the opposing force match, then you can verify it. On the other hand on the first major 8th AF raid 48 german fighters were claimed, reduced to 25 on further inspection, but the LW only actually lost 2!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well aware of that. The one I described-confirmed kill.

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