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Mushidoz
08-06-2015, 10:40 PM
My stance on Necropolis: I've had enough with that stupid faction. Since the moment I joined DoC that faction has been the ONE that I just couldn't stand -- I didn't like playing against it, I didn't like playing with it, and above all I always considered them to be either the top 1 strongest or top 2 strongest in every single meta I have been part of. Every time a "nerf necro" thread popped, there has been a couple of players coming here claiming they weren't or were actually the weakest (wtf, honestly), even though it's -----ALWAYS------- been in the top 2 or 3 most picked faction in the game.

That was before.. now, with Heart of Nightmare, Griffin Bane, Sins of Betrayal AND Time of Renewal being necro-friendly expansions, we're at a point where that faction is just plain first turn auto-concede for many players. That faction is causing players to leave on several levels and in several ways (like a complete newcomer who picks them, own lowbies and get to a point where he gets raped by players who actually understand how to play the game - which they don't, being in champ 1 ranks with the play skill of a knight at best)

It is long overdue that Necropolis gets nerfs. Several, heavy, nerfs. Necropolis cards always seem to have "passes" on cards which would never be allowed in other factions, whether it's their requirements or power level, and so this thread is an attempt at pointing out exactly these cards and make them in line with what other factions get. I am in the opinion that fixing necro would require more than nerfs on cards (it's a complete overhaul of their core mechanics that they need), but I will stick to the really obvious stupid cards of the faction for this thread.
---------------

Suggestions

Boneyard:

1) Creatures killed on the boneyard gets banished instead.
+ 2 ) Fortune requirement passed from 0 to 2

Justification: Too cheap, completely out of hand, forces opponents to play up to 4 rites of the nethermancers in any and every deck (screw originality) AND waste a crap ton of resources in the game to banish **** blockers and or attackers. Boneyard costs 4 resources and automatically brings back a 2 cost creature on the first turn it is used (so its actual cost is only 2). Every following turn, boneyard will bring back another 2 resources worth (so 1 more turn and the building is free) AND, as mentioned, takes away enemy resources every turn or so. That card is toxic and way too easy to use and too cheap for what it actually does -- especially considering necropolis has the biggest amount of 1 and 2 cost creatures in the game (and the strongest too). Passing the fortune requirement to 2 also means that the prime users of that faction will need to invest a little bit more to benefit from that equally ******** and unexpected free attacking 2 drop that timejump brings back to life.



Undead Reinforcement:

1 ) Only skeleton TOKENS gets their stack increased.
+ 2 ) Fortune requirement passed from 0 to 2

Justification: Haven has a card named "Reserve" which increases stack size by 1. It costs 3, has 3 fortune requirement. Necropolis has way more ways of creating and increasing tokens than Haven has, so I believe it only fair that the power level of such a cheap card (1 cost, no requirement whatsoever) be touched upon. Necropolis stacks are supposed to be skeleton token based, not "insane broken t2 and t1 creatures" AND "out-of-hand near impossible to kill tokens" based.



Rotting Zombie:

1 ) Magic requirement increased to two.
+ 2 ) Hp from 4 to 2.
+ 3) Retaliation from 1 to 0
+ 4) Cannot attack

Justification: Bloaters have 2 hp, no retaliation value, and cannot attack. They also don't deal infinite dmg (that is what infect is), they don't come back from the graveyard every turn, and they also don't make it easier for the inferno hero to pop out t6 Plague Bearers-like demons at the cost of 0, nor do they require the enemy hero to spend 2 attacks with a power lane to kill them..



Plague Bearer:

1 ) Might requirement increased to 5
+ 2 ) Creature cost from 6 to 8

Justification: Cloudshaper Djinn have 5 / X / 0 requirements and costs max 10. Most academy heroes will easily get to 3 magic without trying, so its actual base cost is probably closer to 7. With that being said, Cloudshaper djinn does not have infect on hit, cannot be deployed on turn 3 for free and has a harder requirement to fulfil than having poison counters on the field (this is so easy nowadays to it is not even funny).



Rotting Mummy:

1 ) Might requirement increased from 2 to 3

Justification: Does not spawn on the boneyard anymore. That thing is hard enough to kill, and is almost more effective than Doom Bringer at cleaning the entire board. As added benefit, it also helps in otking and gaining free creatures (plague bearer).



Necromancer Reinforcer

1 ) Whenever a friendly creatures with stackable DESTROYS a creature, increase its stack by 1

Justification: Much stronger, much cheaper, much more effective than Sun Crusader, a creature that is more expensive and has 2 more might requirement AND which requires that not-that-amazing creatures KILL in order for its effect to work ONCE per turn. Sun Crusader also happens to be a melee creature, not ranged like necromancer reinforcer is. If the same comparison was made with the Shadow Breeder instead, it would be even more in favor of Necropolis than it currently is. Necromancer Reinforcer is simply overpowered.



Eternal Apprentice

1 ) At the end of your turn, if Eternal Apprentice did not attack, put 1 crippling counter on enemy melee creature in the same row as eternal apprentice
or 1 ) At the end of the first turn Eternal Apprentice is deployed, put 1 cripple counter on all enemy creatures in the same row as eternal apprentice

Justification: A 4 cost creature with a powerful free come-into-play effect, that only costs 4 and which gives a strong body on top of it. The effect is also repeatable every turn (so stronger than just a come-into-play) and pretty much irreversable (cripples are hard to get rid of.. and killing the apprentice is even harder once cripples are distributed). Whether the effect only works on melee OR that it only works the turn it is deployed, this creature still ends up being too cheap for what it does ---> Moonsilk Strands and Moonsilk Fetters cost 3 and 2 respectively, and they don't leave a 2 / 1 / 5 body with cripplet on=hit behind.



Ariana of the Severed Fates:

1 ) Her ability only works on creatures affected by cripple or infect (not enrage, not light counters, nor bloodthirst, etc.)
+ 2 ) Deal damage equal to the number of counters on the targetted creature

Justification: With how easy it is to inflict counters now, that ability is basically a repeatable soul reaver that bypasses dark ward and which doesn't take up any card space in your deck. It is just too absolute, too powerful, and way too easy to use for what actual effect it has. Especially considered Ariana has access to 2 of the strongest magic schools in the entire game AND has everything she wants to stall the game for as long as she wants. Kelthor, a hero with an ability that is considered overpowered, in a faction that's overral weaker than necropolis, does not instant kill creatures as he wants (it deals damage) and requires he actually invest resources on increasing counters (not just ONE counter to one-shot anything he wants). Kelthor also doesn't have access to prime and dark magic... and he doesn't start with the best possible stat configuration available to his faction (like Ariana does)



Mother Namtaru, Invoker of Death:

1 ) Starting stats changed from 1 / 2 / 0 to 0 / 2 / 1

Justification: Mother Namtaru has the best ability in the entire game, is in the cheapest dumbest faction in the game (she wants 1 and 2 cost creatures and flyers -- necropolis has the highest amount of all of that), has the best stat configuration possible for her faction, and has arguably the best 3 schools in the game (some will say that fire is stronger than water, but I disagree with that). Making it so that it is "harder" for her to spam her cheap low cost creatures is the obvious first step to nerf this braindead ******** hero, and even then, I don't think it'd be enough..

R3ZZ_
08-07-2015, 10:20 PM
What are you talk about?

Necropolis never was being strongest faction in the game.
If your remember meta of post bs2 period we have such tier 1 heroes:

HoN: Acamas, Kat and Hakeem - dominance of orcs
GB: Kat, Toghrul and Yukiko - total dominance of orcs
SoB: Kal-Azaar, Kal-Azaar, Kirill, Cassandra and Namtaru New - winferno crash everybody
ToR: Siegfried, Dhamiria, Sandor, Namtaru Invoker

Where do you found necro friendly meta?
Stack Seria is not stable, and poison ariana is not so strong at all. You are just need some skill and nethermaster event to counter her.

AlessaEsperione
08-07-2015, 11:02 PM
My stance on Necropolis: I've had enough with that stupid faction. Since the moment I joined DoC that faction has been the ONE that I just couldn't stand -- I didn't like playing against it, I didn't like playing with it, and above all I always considered them to be either the top 1 strongest or top 2 strongest in every single meta I have been part of. Every time a "nerf necro" thread popped, there has been a couple of players coming here claiming they weren't or were actually the weakest (wtf, honestly), even though it's -----ALWAYS------- been in the top 2 or 3 most picked faction in the game.

That was before.. now, with Heart of Nightmare, Griffin Bane, Sins of Betrayal AND Time of Renewal being necro-friendly expansions, we're at a point where that faction is just plain first turn auto-concede for many players. That faction is causing players to leave on several levels and in several ways (like a complete newcomer who picks them, own lowbies and get to a point where he gets raped by players who actually understand how to play the game - which they don't, being in champ 1 ranks with the play skill of a knight at best)

It is long overdue that Necropolis gets nerfs. Several, heavy, nerfs. Necropolis cards always seem to have "passes" on cards which would never be allowed in other factions, whether it's their requirements or power level, and so this thread is an attempt at pointing out exactly these cards and make them in line with what other factions get. I am in the opinion that fixing necro would require more than nerfs on cards (it's a complete overhaul of their core mechanics that they need), but I will stick to the really obvious stupid cards of the faction for this thread.
---------------

Suggestions

Boneyard:




Undead Reinforcement:




Rotting Zombie:




Plague Bearer:




Rotting Mummy:




Necromancer Reinforcer




Eternal Apprentice




Ariana of the Severed Fates:




Mother Namtaru, Invoker of Death:








Totally agree people who desagree are the one who play with unbalanced heroes inferno need to be nerfed as well and fire spells and water spells too

LHI2
08-07-2015, 11:49 PM
@R3ZZ_
I slightly disagree with you as long as the metas you mentioned are concerned.
For example, Stronghold has always been strong (no pun intended) since the introduction of BS2, with the exception of the present meta. However, It has only been the best for a short period of time during HoN meta. Hakeem was a much better deck IMO and so was Dhamiria Mass Rage. I still recall watching Jkkk89 winning everything with them.

Seria token is actually quite a stable deck now mostly thanks to the mechanics Mushidoz has described.
Deciding wether it's too powerful or not is another matter entirely. I think that what he meant was that Necro tends to be frustrating and annoying to play against. It's an attrition game every time. It also has some undoubtably strong game mechanics, and it's the way it should be.

To keep it simple, I don't believe it to be the best faction. I believe it is the most frustrating to play against with a creature-based deck.

@Mushidoz
Since you've put some time and effort into this, I will answer to each of your ideas.

Boneyard, Mummy and Zombie recursion
I don't remember who that was but someone (apologies) proposed that only skeletons should be brought back from the dead by boneyards. It makes perfect sense, I like it.
What I also believe to make sense is to add a 1 or 2 Destiny requirement to this building. After all, reviving the dead is supposed to be lore-related and, as such, demand destiny. Not only would this prevent the abuse of the Time Jump + instant creatures popping combo, it would also favour Destiny based decks which is an archetype that has nearly vanished. The same medecine should be given to other factions BTW.

Undead Reinforcement and Necromancer Reinforcer
I agree with the UR proposal.
On the other hand, Necro Reinforcer doesn't need to change, only his requirements. I would personally like to see it ask for 2 Destiny (same idea as the one above).

Plague Bearer
No, I think it is fine as it is. Plus, provided mummies are nerfed as you asked (or as I did for that matter), it would not be so easy to get them on the board anyway.

Eternal Apprentice.
Now, this is a pain. This is the reason for this complaining thread. And, at the same time, it's not seen play at a competive level (or has it?, never seen it).
Quite frankcly, it's fine as it is. It fits the Necro theme perfectly. It is just that you and I don't really like it.

Ariana
Yes for your first proposal : her ability should only work with crippling and poison counters.
No for the other one. It is already an expensive ability, no need to weaken its effect.
BTW : Kelthor DOES start with the best stats for Stronghold. What different combination would be better from your point of view?

Namtaru
It has already been nerfed. Let's not overkill her.

Mushidoz
08-08-2015, 02:13 AM
@R3ZZ:

"I always considered them to be either the top 1 strongest or top 2 strongest in every single meta"

"it's -----ALWAYS------- been in the top 2 or 3 most picked faction in the game."

During the Nightmare meta (when I joined), it was big time Ariana and Hakeem for a while, then Acamas showed up and Ariana was still picked heavily (I remember calling that stupid hero out every time too, since I really hated that hero.. and still do). There was a bunch of Dhamiria massrage ******** around too, but it was mostly marginal, and TIMEJUMP (AKA Ariana) was the actual answer to them.

During the Griffin Bane meta, Stronghold was the most picked and strongest -faction-. HOWEVER, Necropolis was still heavily picked in that meta, and it was still Ariana. Masfar OTK was also a thing during that time, as well as some elusive rarer Haven barrack decks.

During the SoB meta, Inferno was the #1 picked faction. HOWEVER, Necropolis was still picked --HEAVILY--- with the un-nerfed old Namtaru, as well as the "new namtaru".

During the Time of Renewal meta (the **** we have right now), number 1 most picked faction is Necropolis. Saying otherwise is plain ridiculous, or you're living in your own little bubble of people who spam the same heroes / decks


Your kind of replies is exactly what I pointed out in the opener. People who play that faction heavily, or are in the champ3 rank, always bring their asses on threads like this one and claim Necropolis sucks or is perfectly fine, or that they are never played -- but when you start looking at the actual games they play (in "competitions"), necropolis is picked ---heavily---. When Haven was ****, people didn't play them or try them in the higher ranks, nor was sanctuary.

On your comment about Seria token being unstable... WTF are you talking about? If Seria token was ever unstable, it is nothing even remotely close to how it is since the release of Time of Renewal. If Seria token is not stable enough, then Siegfried is unplayable, cause Seria token is more stable than Siegfried, who's pretty much relying on getting early barracks and lots of path of the ancestor to show up.

@LH12:

As I wrote in my post, and Rezz seemingly misread, I claim that necropolis is and always has been one of the most picked -factions- in the game, and that -I- consider them to be top 1 or top 2 strongest in pretty much every meta I have been playing in. When people were complaining about SoB inferno-heavy meta, I was winning far many more games against them than against necropolis (and that is consistant across all metas I have played and all that despite the fact I build by decks specically to counter them). But yes, not only I find them ******ed powerful, but I also dislike fighting against them too.

--------------------

Now to your reply to my suggestions to fix noobopoolis:

Boneyard:
Bringing back only skeletons is an idea.. but honestly, I much prefer the idea of banishing creatures if they sit on the building and get killed. Masfar otk was a deck that was getting raped if ONE cosmic balance popped up at the right time. All you needed was to put ONE event in your deck, just in case, and you could counter the deck. Necropolis? It forces you to play 3 or 4 rite of the nethermancer in every single deck you create, waste 1 or 2 resource every turn, and then still manage to beat your opponent (who is by no mean weaker than you). Seriously? I know and understand very well how the event works, and that it doesn't just work against necro, but let's face it -- the main use of nethermancer is to counter necropolis (fire and dark spells and prime creatures is something that made an appearance much later, Akane is rarely played, and nethermancer is BARELY enough to prevent the use of moon phoenix maybe once or twice in a game).

Bringing back only skeletons is good too, though, since it limits the number of creatures you need to get rid of..


Necromancer Reinforcer:
Two fortune requirement won't change a thing. It's a t4 creature with 3 might requirement, played by heroes that get to 3 fortune very easily. Increasing the fortune requirement to 2 would thus be a complete non-factor. Comparing how the reinforcer works/costs with the shadow breeder and sun crusader is enough to conclude that it's the creature's effect that needs to be changed, not its requirements (unless real requirements are considered, like 4 fortune, or 5 might)


Plague Bearer:
There's a earth spell that puts up to 8 poison markers on a row. That's a potential X4 free plague bearers already. How hard is it to put infect markers again? There' also a spell that costs 2 that doubles infect counters on the entire field.. If you blow ONE zombie and get one or two creatures with it and then use that spell, you have 4 or 8 markers already at the cost of 2 (since you used that mummy the turn before and blew it the turn after). Yeaaaah.. I don't think it'd be hard to spam these counters and spam the bearers, even with the changes I suggested. It would however require that necropolis heroes FINALLY invest some might in their creatures (4 might requirement for a t6 creature that costs 0 is a ****ing joke honestly).


Eternal Apprentice:
Cripple counters are just too dumb as a mechanic, and that creature is too good of a body for the repeatable come-into-play effect is has. That creature not being played is mind-blowing, and probably just shows that necropolis has too many insane low cost creatures (seriously, how many creatures above 3 cost do they even play? banshee? uniques? necro reinforcer?)


Ariana:
How is it expensive exactly? That's a repeatable soul reaver that doesn't take up space in your deck. It doesn't cost more than a soul reaver, but it bypasses magic immunity and dark ward. Poison and cripple counters are easier to increase than enrage markers (espeically with access to dark and earth magic and necro creatures), so if Ariana's ability were to mirror Kelthor's ability, it would still be at a high level of ******** imo. Let's face it, Ariana's ability is too cheap.


Namtaru:
Overkill her? Her ability costs 1, that's all it costs. For 1, you kill something. Discarding, for necropolis, is nowhere close to a bad thing (heck, it only fuels your boneyard). WORSE, this expansion brought Sahaar Mummy to the standard format, AND buffed it. Namtaru received a "nerf" not long after she actually got the biggest dumbest buffs in the history of DoC (when they changed her starting stats), and with Time of Renewal introducing 5 new t2 creatures to the format, they actually buffed her with this expansion, even though she was one of the strongest heroes in the game during the SoB meta.

SkyNoir
08-08-2015, 07:31 AM
What are you talk about?

Necropolis never was being strongest faction in the game.
If your remember meta of post bs2 period we have such tier 1 heroes:

HoN: Acamas, Kat and Hakeem - dominance of orcs
GB: Kat, Toghrul and Yukiko - total dominance of orcs
SoB: Kal-Azaar, Kal-Azaar, Kirill, Cassandra and Namtaru New - winferno crash everybody
ToR: Siegfried, Dhamiria, Sandor, Namtaru Invoker

Where do you found necro friendly meta?
Stack Seria is not stable, and poison ariana is not so strong at all. You are just need some skill and nethermaster event to counter her.

u are just a necro player who doesnt want them to be nerfed.... my last 10 games were vs seria or Ariana,,,,,

and i am having an easier time playing a game vs kal thn those necros

SkyNoir
08-08-2015, 07:40 AM
@R3ZZ_
I slightly disagree with you as long as the metas you mentioned are concerned.
For example, Stronghold has always been strong (no pun intended) since the introduction of BS2, with the exception of the present meta. However, It has only been the best for a short period of time during HoN meta. Hakeem was a much better deck IMO and so was Dhamiria Mass Rage. I still recall watching Jkkk89 winning everything with them.

Seria token is actually quite a stable deck now mostly thanks to the mechanics Mushidoz has described.
Deciding wether it's too powerful or not is another matter entirely. I think that what he meant was that Necro tends to be frustrating and annoying to play against. It's an attrition game every time. It also has some undoubtably strong game mechanics, and it's the way it should be.

To keep it simple, I don't believe it to be the best faction. I believe it is the most frustrating to play against with a creature-based deck.

@Mushidoz
Since you've put some time and effort into this, I will answer to each of your ideas.

Boneyard, Mummy and Zombie recursion
I don't remember who that was but someone (apologies) proposed that only skeletons should be brought back from the dead by boneyards. It makes perfect sense, I like it.
What I also believe to make sense is to add a 1 or 2 Destiny requirement to this building. After all, reviving the dead is supposed to be lore-related and, as such, demand destiny. Not only would this prevent the abuse of the Time Jump + instant creatures popping combo, it would also favour Destiny based decks which is an archetype that has nearly vanished. The same medecine should be given to other factions BTW.

Undead Reinforcement and Necromancer Reinforcer
I agree with the UR proposal.
On the other hand, Necro Reinforcer doesn't need to change, only his requirements. I would personally like to see it ask for 2 Destiny (same idea as the one above).

Plague Bearer
No, I think it is fine as it is. Plus, provided mummies are nerfed as you asked (or as I did for that matter), it would not be so easy to get them on the board anyway.

Eternal Apprentice.
Now, this is a pain. This is the reason for this complaining thread. And, at the same time, it's not seen play at a competive level (or has it?, never seen it).
Quite frankcly, it's fine as it is. It fits the Necro theme perfectly. It is just that you and I don't really like it.

Ariana
Yes for your first proposal : her ability should only work with crippling and poison counters.
No for the other one. It is already an expensive ability, no need to weaken its effect.
BTW : Kelthor DOES start with the best stats for Stronghold. What different combination would be better from your point of view?

Namtaru
It has already been nerfed. Let's not overkill her.


give this guy a medal! the destiny requirement is a great idea, and skeletons only for boneyard

LHI2
08-08-2015, 11:02 AM
I've actually been thinking about the Necromancer Reinforcer this night and you're quite right : 2 Destiny isn't enough because of Seria. 3 should be the way to go to force players to choose between putting the amphasis on spells or on creatures and fortunes.

IMO, Might is not worth increasing compared to Magic, especially for Necopolis. It is thus not surprising that players don't play 4 Might creatures or above : they wouldn't be able to also up their Magic fast enough. Hence the scarcity of the Apprentice.
Good low costs creatures also add to that.

Ariana's ability is expensive for two reasons : 4 mana is quite a cost to kill creatures that are, most of the time, worth only 2 or 3 ressources.
Using, and to a greater degree, abusing her ability prevents the player from upping her stats. This is a colossal drawback that shouldn't be ignored, especially because Ariana is usually played 4/6/1.
What is more, I have never seen a deck based on her ability that was succesful.

Namtaru isn't as broken as Kal a meta ago. She also runs out of steam very quicly and relies heavily on drawing the good cards in mid-late game. Path of Ancestors is also quite a problem for her. Finally, a good IS or Geyser destroys her.
Anyway, if Boneyard was twicked, either by attaching 1 or 2 Destiny requirements to it or by making it only revive skeletons, Nam would see much less play.

BTW, I think the way to go with Boneyard is to enhance Destiny rather than going all in for skeletons.

ftr_midnight
08-08-2015, 12:28 PM
I've actually been thinking about the Necromancer Reinforcer this night and you're quite right : 2 Destiny isn't enough because of Seria. 3 should be the way to go to force players to choose between putting the amphasis on spells or on creatures and fortunes.

...

BTW, I think the way to go with Boneyard is to enhance Destiny rather than going all in for skeletons.

I totally agree with these propositions. That would be very good indirect buff to my main deck! xD

Infernal_Wisdom
08-08-2015, 02:36 PM
This topic is funny, I don't know if I will write a long message, I agree on boneyard and namtaru ability somehow needs a nerf( I just don't know how is this possible without killing cards), and I even don't know if nerfing boneyard would be a right thing to do when "barracks" remain still untouched, but this topic needs to be renamed as "killing necropolis" because one does need to be mentally ill to propose such fixes....



Rotting Zombie:
1 ) Magic requirement increased to two.
+ 2 ) Hp from 4 to 2.
+ 3) Retaliation from 1 to 0
+ 4) Cannot attack

Plague Bearer:
1 ) Might requirement increased to 5
+ 2 ) Creature cost from 6 to 8

Ariana of the Severed Fates:
1 ) Her ability only works on creatures affected by cripple or infect (not enrage, not light counters, nor bloodthirst, etc.)
+ 2 ) Deal damage equal to the number of counters on the targetted creature

*Sorry Mushidoz, don't take my message personally, you know I put on my glasses of friendship and I see personality, it is different, and I put on my glasses of tester and I see thoughts, it is different, I hope you understand.

Mushidoz
08-08-2015, 03:22 PM
You say I'm wrong or that it'd kill necropolis, but you don't actually support or explain any of your claims Infernal. I explain exactly why they are undercosted or too powerful, and none of your listing has any justification (instead suggesting I am mentally ill and put no thought in this -_-). I could have put The Banshee in there because I hate the card, but I make the same kind of observations I did here and compared that creature to Dragon Golem and Spellstealer Heretic (she's a 2/0/3 incorpo creature that costs 2 in the end) and concluded she was "okay" and thus not in an urgent need of nerf. The other cards mentioned, however, are not okay at all.

- I see NO reason whatsoever why rotting zombie should not mirror Inferno's bloaters and have 2 hp. The zombie is actually stronger than bloaters (because of boneyard and infinite dmg infect deals, as well as its synergy with plague bearer)

- Getting 8 poison counter on the field is RIDICULOUSLY easy. If the creature costed 8 instead of 6, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference overrall. As I said, for 3 resources you can have 8 poison markers on the field in one turn with just one spell (not even counting other sources of infect, which are extremely numerous)

- Ariana is ******** broken and always has been. I seriously don't get what you guys can't see or understand. Perhaps you play too much open infernal? In open, fortunes play a major role, so obviously you would not give as much value to her if you have fortunes in mind. She also doesn't have much ways of dealing against fortunes, so again, that is the ONLY reason I would find to justify why you would think she isn't ******** broken.

- To the other cards you did not mention.. again, there is no reason why these wouldn't be nerfed, especially compared to what is available in other factions (the same kind of argument is made when you compare Spell-Stealer Heretic to The Banshee and Dragon Golem, by the way). Compare Undead Reinforcement to Reserve, Necromancer Reinforcer to Shadow Breeder and Sun Crusader, Eternal Apprentice to moonsilk fetters and moonsilk strands (2 / 1 / 5 body for 1.5 resource average when you take moonsilk in consideration - that is not balanced). As for Namtaru.. she received 5 new t2 and t1 creatures with Time of Renewal.. she was broken before the expansion and only got worse. Her ability is beyond undercosted - you pay 1 resource to gain fuel to your boneyard (1 resource to spawn a t2 creature then, pretty much) AND ON TOP you kill a creature that costs 2. That's like 6 resources worth of bonus every time you use your ability. Reverting her back to 0 / 2 / 1 would NOT be overkill, especially not with necropolis creatures (they cost 1, 2, 3 max, and you can also play a t1 creature that increases might)


As to barracks... It's a necro thread, there are other cards that need to be nerfed in the game (spells, faction speciifcs, buildings, neutrals, events, whatever), but these are the specific "cards" that I think are in need of fixing when it comes to necropolis. Arkath, timejump, massrage, path of the ancestor, frozen wave (for example) are cards that need to be nerfed, but they are not necro specific, and thus not listed in this necro-specific thread.

ftr_midnight
08-08-2015, 04:11 PM
- I see NO reason whatsoever why rotting zombie should not mirror Inferno's bloaters and have 2 hp. The zombie is actually stronger than bloaters (because of boneyard and infinite dmg infect deals, as well as its synergy with plague bearer)

Then you are possibly blind. There is a big difference between Bloater and R.Zombie - 4 damage from bloater is instant, while poison from zombie is not - affected creatures can be healed, counters can be removed, creature can be returned to hand, creatures can still attack before dying etc.


- Getting 8 poison counter on the field is RIDICULOUSLY easy. If the creature costed 8 instead of 6, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference overrall. As I said, for 3 resources you can have 8 poison markers on the field in one turn with just one spell (not even counting other sources of infect, which are extremely numerous)

No, it's not easy. You are talking about one specific case - when both you are your necro opponent have 2 creatures on the same row. And Necro player must have Earth magic to cast the spell. And his creatures get poisoned too, after all.


- Ariana is ******** broken and always has been. I seriously don't get what you guys can't see or understand. Perhaps you play too much open infernal? In open, fortunes play a major role, so obviously you would not give as much value to her if you have fortunes in mind. She also doesn't have much ways of dealing against fortunes, so again, that is the ONLY reason I would find to justify why you would think she isn't ******** broken.

Can you back this claim? For example, with stats from Replay manager? Ariana have never been strong. Sometimes she was OK, yes, but never strong.


Compare Undead Reinforcement to Reserve, Necromancer Reinforcer to Shadow Breeder and Sun Crusader, Eternal Apprentice to moonsilk fetters and moonsilk strands

Undead reinforcements should not be compared with Reserves - there are more stackable creatures in Haven and they are stronger than Necro skeletons.
Necromancer reinforcer, Shadow breeder and Sun crusader can not be compared as well - all of them have nuances in how their stack-increasing mechanics work. Personally, I think Shadow breeder is weakest of them overall (and that's why it is cheapest of them).
Eternal Apprentice is probably the only card worth talking about, but personally, I think he is OK. It has a number of downsides and can be dealt with or played around.


As for Namtaru.. she received 5 new t2 and t1 creatures with Time of Renewal.. she was broken before the expansion and only got worse.

A bold unsupported claim again. Yeah, totally unbiased.


As to barracks... It's a necro thread, there are other cards that need to be nerfed in the game (spells, faction speciifcs, buildings, neutrals, events, whatever), but these are the specific "cards" that I think are in need of fixing when it comes to necropolis. Arkath, timejump, massrage, path of the ancestor, frozen wave (for example) are cards that need to be nerfed, but they are not necro specific, and thus not listed in this necro-specific thread.

So, why did you chose to create Necropolis-specific thread and not general thread? It looks like you would prefer this game not having Necropolis faction at all. What's next, though? Should dark magic be heaviliy nerfed next only because you don't know how to play the game where it exists?

--------------

Now, let's go back a bit. You said several times that Necro faction was the most or second most picked all the time since you've joined (that is, HoN and later). Can you please support this claim with stats? Replay manager stats would do fine, grouped by expansion and by faction.
Until then all you say is just blabbering.

Mushidoz
08-08-2015, 04:57 PM
Then you are possibly blind. There is a big difference between Bloater and R.Zombie - 4 damage from bloater is instant, while poison from zombie is not - affected creatures can be healed, counters can be removed, creature can be returned to hand, creatures can still attack before dying etc.

Yes, they are different, and I already acknowledged the difference. Bloater doesn't do infinite dmg (it deals 4 once in one go, not 2 every turn till the end of time, which is 90% of the case due to counters being freaking hard to remove for the big majority of all the factions in this game), it also doesn't lower the cost of 6 tier inferno creatures and it doesn't come back from the graveyard every turn unless the opponent uses 1 resource from one of the 4 rite of the nethermancer events he was forced to put in all of his decks to counter idiotic cards like boneyard.

These cards can and should be compared to each others, as with hangman tree is to be compared to obsidian gargoyle and waterfall guardians -- they are mirror creatures with faction-based flavour, but overall they are the same sort of creatures. Speaking of the tree, if you want a blocker for necropolis, use the hangman tree, not the zombie (the same as inferno doesn't use bloaters to "block" a lane)


No, it's not easy. You are talking about one specific case - when both you are your necro opponent have 2 creatures on the same row. And Necro player must have Earth magic to cast the spell. And his creatures get poisoned too, after all.

Do we seriously have to go through all the possible ways to increase poison counters? There are OTK decks that deal 30 / 40 dmg in one turn using these counters, so clearly increasing counters to 8 would not be sick. In the off case someone only manages to increase the counters to 6 (with a zombie and a mummy perhaps), with the changes I suggested these plague bearers would cost 2 each... Two resource for a 4 / 2 / 7 creature is nowhere close to bad, I hope you understand - it wouldn't be expensive if you paid 4 either, and increasing counters to 4 is nowhere close to hard either.


Can you back this claim? For example, with stats from Replay manager? Ariana have never been strong. Sometimes she was OK, yes, but never strong.

I probably could back these claims if I did a forum search and got jkk's reports on "meta", or other people's "most picked" heroes from competitions held by various communities, but that would take a freaking long time, and so I won't. I watch way too many streams to feel the need to do the exercise too


Undead reinforcements should not be compared with Reserves - there are more stackable creatures in Haven and they are stronger than Necro skeletons.
Necromancer reinforcer, Shadow breeder and Sun crusader can not be compared as well - all of them have nuances in how their stack-increasing mechanics work. Personally, I think Shadow breeder is weakest of them overall (and that's why it is cheapest of them).
Eternal Apprentice is probably the only card worth talking about, but personally, I think he is OK. It has a number of downsides and can be dealt with or played around.

First off, YES, undead reinforcements should be compared to reserves. They serve the same purpose. Second, there are 5 creature types with stackable in Haven (including barracks) vs 4 creature types for necropolis. HOWEVER, there is one way to create haven tokens VS 6 or 7 ways for necropolis (fortunes and creatures). Also, haven stack creatures are WEAKER than necropolis creatures (because necro stacks often come infect AND they are much easier to increase than haven's)


A bold unsupported claim again. Yeah, totally unbiased.

Saying she isn't strong is bolder and even more unsupported as a claim, you realize? I justify my observations by watching **** loads of streams, playing the game (as you prob do), from reading forum threads that report on the metas, and by doing a mathematical explanation as to how exactly her ability is too powerful (I did it twice already). What actual argument have the necro defenders offered so far?


So, why did you chose to create Necropolis-specific thread and not general thread? It looks like you would prefer this game not having Necropolis faction at all. What's next, though? Should dark magic be heaviliy nerfed next only because you don't know how to play the game where it exists?

I chose to make a necro-specific thread because I ****ing hate playing against them, and they are, to me, the dumbest most overpowered faction of this meta. As for what's next? I already made threads on dark magic, timejump, massrage and dark magic. I can and know how to play the game with dark magic being as it is, but that doesn't mean I support how broken of a school it is. Getting pretty ****ing tired of all the insinuations that I don't know how to play too, this is getting old pretty fast and quite frankly really unwarranted.

--------------


Now, let's go back a bit. You said several times that Necro faction was the most or second most picked all the time since you've joined (that is, HoN and later). Can you please support this claim with stats? Replay manager stats would do fine, grouped by expansion and by faction.
Until then all you say is just blabbering.

Again, do the exercise if you want -- I've read forum reports and watched enough streams to know. I don't want to spend 3 hours going through the HORRIBLE forum search function of this forum to look for information I have read and observed. Also, just so you know, your "argument" that because I don't have the replay manager data in hand works against you as well. None of the necro defenders have provided a single valid argument (or data) to prove otherwise. The problem, however, is that I am not sure all the data is even available, as it would requires that all competitions / tourneys / ubisoft data was collected together and analyzed and then reported on somewhere.. which is quite ridiculous.

Infernal_Wisdom
08-08-2015, 05:13 PM
You say I'm wrong or that it'd kill necropolis, but you don't actually support or explain any of your claims Infernal. I explain exactly why they are undercosted or too powerful, and none of your listing has any justification (instead suggesting I am mentally ill and put no thought in this -_-). I could have put The Banshee in there because I hate the card, but I make the same kind of observations I did here and compared that creature to Dragon Golem and Spellstealer Heretic (she's a 2/0/3 incorpo creature that costs 2 in the end) and concluded she was "okay" and thus not in an urgent need of nerf. The other cards mentioned, however, are not okay at all.

You know what mushi life is hard sometimes... I just didnt want to write anything, because I am sick and tired of discussing in vain, thanks to our game management, like it will change anything... But somehow I can't even resist to not write either because this is a public forum and people read it and new players might read your thoughts here and yeah new players may have hard time against necropolis, you definately need to know how to play against most of them(especially against anastasia), and they might just think easily necro is OP either, and then they will just read what you wrote here and they will stop thinking how to win against necro etc... since they will read a more experienced player who wrote guide for new players is thinking necro is OP.... and this is something I can't take either, ok I will try to explain myself better step by step...


- I see NO reason whatsoever why rotting zombie should not mirror Inferno's bloaters and have 2 hp. The zombie is actually stronger than bloaters (because of boneyard and infinite dmg infect deals, as well as its synergy with plague bearer)

First of all if you wanna compare something against bloater, that unit is rotting zombie, not rotting mummy. And these 2 units are perfectly balanced imo except I would change rotting zombie's magic requirement into 2 magic, and the difference between those units are these: One does instant 4 damage, and kills 4 HP units instantly, while the rotting zombie is not killing them instantly (instant is powerful mushidoz. example: "Blackskull Spellsmasher vs Angel Protector" )

so your opponents 4 HP guys are attacking at least 1 turn, and die one turn later with rotting zombie, but to balance this downside rotting zombie has 1 more retal 2 more HP and on the long run it can kill all creatures, they are dealing infinite damage thats true but the thing is games are not lasting for eternity, so the more early effect means the more strong value.

And I can tell you also why rotting mummy needs to be 4 HP, its because again its effect is not only not instant but also it is "random". Random is bad, just bad...
Against creature decks yeah these units are really nasty sometimes, but do you think these are helping you lets say playing against "kal-azaar" control? you are just letting kal-azaar wipe your board easier thanks to these creatures.

Also imagine these creatures have 2 HP, you can save poisons in a corner with it but it is a 2 resource creature and if you play this creature just saving poison in a corner, then you probably just will get outrushed. it is almost equal to have an empty turn 2....


- Getting 8 poison counter on the field is RIDICULOUSLY easy. If the creature costed 8 instead of 6, it probably wouldn't make much of a difference overrall. As I said, for 3 resources you can have 8 poison markers on the field in one turn with just one spell (not even counting other sources of infect, which are extremely numerous)

8 and 6 does not make any changes? really?

Now tell me than why people stop playing "vulture riders" in open format? They just get nerfed from 4 into 5 resources. Do you really think 2 resource won't matter?

You are already proposing to run that "crappy" 3 resource poison spell to play these plague bearers and you still think it will not be different? You can't be serious...

And more than that we all know this rule in creature decks: "More combo, lesss success". There are ofcourse some exceptions, but they are very few.


- Ariana is ******** broken and always has been. I seriously don't get what you guys can't see or understand. Perhaps you play too much open infernal? In open, fortunes play a major role, so obviously you would not give as much value to her if you have fortunes in mind. She also doesn't have much ways of dealing against fortunes, so again, that is the ONLY reason I would find to justify why you would think she isn't ******** broken.

Ariana was never broken, never, I am playing since BS1 and she was never broken, she is just OK! And yes mushidoz I am playing too much open, but also too much standart, too much everything, you know one does not simply become level 500 + and you don't even know how much alt accounts I have or you don't even know how much games I played on test server either, so do not open "player experience" arguement, because you will probably lose because I simply just have experience on every single decks both in open and standart. Anyways back to topic, you have simply wrong aproach on this either because necro control decks have very good answers against fortune decks in open format, and I have only 2 open format necro decks, one is just for fun "adar malik massrage" which is simply not a good deck in open format, and the other one is ariana control, which has very good answers against stall, like "ariana chosen of the void" , "void ripple" , "minor recall" , "week of taxes" and "blind arbiters", I am running 1 of each cards and I am running 4 taxes and 3 arbiters, and against ignatiouses I have decent win ratio with this ariana.

But besides open, in standart, you simply have a choice as ariana, yeah you can decide to run 4x boneyards, 4x rotting mummies, 4x rotting zombies, and you can be a real pain in the *** against heavy creature decks, but than what? what against kal-azaar? what against ammar? what against sandor? what against dhamiria?
It is simply player's choice and mistake to shape his deck so imbalanced, and to be honest I won't play such decks mostly who has too much popular instant lose decks, and don't worry that necro player will lose all these matchups "for sure!!!" and still they can't win "%100" against creature decks, so I guess this is only an illusion.

And we had this discussion before, "Soul Reaver is neither good nor bad spell". It is just an OK'ish spell and ariana's ability is just a soul reaver with a condition, it causes %100 tempo loss and it is late game ability mostly. So I blame opponent of ariana if he couldnt find a way to deal enough damage while ariana is using its ability with 4 resources....

You guys are always talking like your opponent has boneyards, poison heals and rotting mummies with 123123 poison counters on board like they have perfect settlement, but maybe it is time to ask yourself what did you play while your opponent played those cards?... You will lose to necro or any other faction if you don't answer your opponent, it does not matter...


- To the other cards you did not mention.. again, there is no reason why these wouldn't be nerfed, especially compared to what is available in other factions (the same kind of argument is made when you compare Spell-Stealer Heretic to The Banshee and Dragon Golem, by the way). Compare Undead Reinforcement to Reserve, Necromancer Reinforcer to Shadow Breeder and Sun Crusader, Eternal Apprentice to moonsilk fetters and moonsilk strands (2 / 1 / 5 body for 1.5 resource average when you take moonsilk in consideration - that is not balanced). As for Namtaru.. she received 5 new t2 and t1 creatures with Time of Renewal.. she was broken before the expansion and only got worse. Her ability is beyond undercosted - you pay 1 resource to gain fuel to your boneyard (1 resource to spawn a t2 creature then, pretty much) AND ON TOP you kill a creature that costs 2. That's like 6 resources worth of bonus every time you use your ability. Reverting her back to 0 / 2 / 1 would NOT be overkill, especially not with necropolis creatures (they cost 1, 2, 3 max, and you can also play a t1 creature that increases might)


As to barracks... It's a necro thread, there are other cards that need to be nerfed in the game (spells, faction speciifcs, buildings, neutrals, events, whatever), but these are the specific "cards" that I think are in need of fixing when it comes to necropolis. Arkath, timejump, massrage, path of the ancestor, frozen wave (for example) are cards that need to be nerfed, but they are not necro specific, and thus not listed in this necro-specific thread.

For this part I am tired kinda will write later maybe

Mushidoz
08-08-2015, 06:04 PM
I confuse Mummy and Zombie, I'll go through my interventions and see if I did make a mistake between the two (I compare Bloaters to Zombie, the one that goes boom and deals 2 poison counters -- he is NOT random at all). Rotting Zombie is the only creatures of these 2 (zombie and mummy) that I reduce its HP to 2. The other dude I was just increasing its might requirement so that it doesnt pop back up in the graveyard.


8 and 6 does not make any changes? really?

Now tell me than why people stop playing "vulture riders" in open format? They just get nerfed from 4 into 5 resources. Do you really think 2 resource won't matter?

Killing ONE creature to have 1 resource back is significantly harder than having +1 poison counter with the state necro is in at the moment. Seriously, if plague bearers could give back resource, sometimes you would have necropolis gain +3 or +4 or even more resource back for playing that creature -- and not all decks can play the earth spells that increase poison markers (they aren't even needed at the moment due to zombie and mummy).

Also, open is a ****load of bull -- if we wanted to include the black vulture into the discussion (a very good valid creature to compare cloudshaper djinn and plague bearer by the way!), then vulture would need to be in standard as well. Would the vulture see no play in standard? Something tells me we would see it, especially with how prevalent frozen wave can be at times. Especially since creatures are far more important in standard than they are in open (so many stall and removal options in open).


You are already proposing to run that "crappy" 3 resource poison spell to play these plague bearers and you still think it will not be different? You can't be serious...

So what you're saying is, don't invest anything and get everything cheap and free at no risk and no cost whatsoever? Or are you saying "Putrid Dragon Breath could give you near free insane melee creatures very early at little to no cost and few investment, but hey, that card is bad and will always be"? To be perfectly honest, every Ariana poison deck I encountered played that card and have managed to get their counters high and quickly. If you don't play it and claim Ariana is bad or that counters are hard to produce, then I think the problem has been found. This also goes for Contagious Poison, which will increase poison counter on your Rotting Mummy(ies) and allow you to play as many plague bearer as you want if you did not manage to kill it in time (aka, if your mummies / enemies have a total of counters that is 3 and up, plague bearers are free -- not bad for a "bad card")

Cloudshaper djinns are usually played in decks that run Circle of 9. That's their resource accelerator and combo card. If you want to play plague bearers and you put a lot of core emphasis on getting them fast, then you will need to invest and play cards that will help you to do that, otherwise I personally have NO problem at all and NO shame in saying that they should wait longer before they can play 4 / 1 / 7 creatures with infect FOR FREAKING FREE lol


On Ariana:

She has town portal, she has soul reaver, she has mummies and zombies (poison counters will kill your creatures and block lanes in the early phase), she has boneyard to bring them back after they have done their job early on and stalled, and she has alone in the dark as well as possibly high costed prime removals and low cost t3 creatures with high hp that will manage to inflict at least 1 poison marker on your creatures if you stay in front of them one turn, and she has insect swarm in the odd case you managed to deploy a ****-load of low cost low hp creatures on the battlefield and she couldn't deal with them fast enough. Getting to the "late game" with Ariana poison is easy. Poison Heal is a joke, but it is often not even needed (or rather, very often a hindrance rather than a boon). You don't spam your hero ability every turn with Ariana in the early phase, you can deal with creatures as they come with your spell schools and poison creatures. Honestly, placing a single creature with cripple or infect on a lane often-time means that you have won the lane (unless your opponent has spells to deal with it, or a strong powerlane... that will get raped by rotting zombie and poison breathe and give her free plague bearers)

I give you that Ariana can deal with fortunes in open, actually forgot that prime is a massive ******** spell school - which definately does not help the case here in you claiming that she is only "okay".



What against kal-azaar? what against ammar? what against sandor? what against dhamiria?

And here comes my favourite "X is balanced" argument ^^ Overpowered things are in need of fixing, they are not the "norm" nor the reference. Something being overpowered does not make another balanced when compared to it.

- Kal Azaar is Namtaru for stronghold, he plays and feels exactly like a necropolis hero, and like Namtaru, that hero is overpowered mostly because of having access to prime and dark magic (with fire to support), and insane starting stats. <-- Timejump and Arkath wrath are in need of nerf, as well as spellstealer heretic, which he recycles to further arkath. Not necropolis-speciifc cards.

- Ammar.. is far from being on the same level as Namtaru or Kal Azaar, or Siegfried or Dhamiria empowered spell or whatever. Quite a dumb deck, overall (it's academy after all), but it's more a problem of Frozen Wave being a bit too absolute (and probably cloudshaper djinns and how easy it is to gain magic with academy, to an extend). Anyway yeah, not really counting this one.. except Frozen Wave being a card in need of nerf (and not "necro specific")

- Sandor plays massrage and arkath wrath. <-- These are cards in need of nerfing, but not "necropolis-specific"

- Dhamiria plays arkath and empowered spells. <-- These are cards in need of nerfing, but not "necropolis-specific"

ftr_midnight
08-08-2015, 06:18 PM
First off, YES, undead reinforcements should be compared to reserves. They serve the same purpose. Second, there are 5 creature types with stackable in Haven (including barracks) vs 4 creature types for necropolis. HOWEVER, there is one way to create haven tokens VS 6 or 7 ways for necropolis (fortunes and creatures). Also, haven stack creatures are WEAKER than necropolis creatures (because necro stacks often come infect AND they are much easier to increase than haven's)

1) There are 6 stackables in Haven.
2) There are only 3 ways to create Necro tokens - Bone setter, Bone to Bone and Reanimation. OK, make it 4 if you take into account Army of the Dead, which is everything but reliable to get in play.
3) Haven stackables by themselves are stronger than Necro. That is the reason why Reserves cost more.


Again, do the exercise if you want -- I've read forum reports and watched enough streams to know. I don't want to spend 3 hours going through the HORRIBLE forum search function of this forum to look for information I have read and observed. Also, just so you know, your "argument" that because I don't have the replay manager data in hand works against you as well. None of the necro defenders have provided a single valid argument (or data) to prove otherwise. The problem, however, is that I am not sure all the data is even available, as it would requires that all competitions / tourneys / ubisoft data was collected together and analyzed and then reported on somewhere.. which is quite ridiculous.

And I've read forum reports and watched enough streams too. That's not an argument. You don't have to go through forum search. I don't ask you for all competitions/tourneys/whatever. I ask you to share with us, how many times you personally met different factions/heroes during HoN, GB, SoB and ToR. I don't ask for your winrate, just tell us something along the lines of "345 games in HoN, played against Haven 56 times, Necro 79 times, Stronghold 35 times etc". You do have Replay manager, right?

Mushidoz
08-08-2015, 06:40 PM
1) There are 6 stackables in Haven.
2) There are only 3 ways to create Necro tokens - Bone setter, Bone to Bone and Reanimation. OK, make it 4 if you take into account Army of the Dead, which is everything but reliable to get in play.
3) Haven stackables by themselves are stronger than Necro. That is the reason why Reserves cost more.,

1) Barracks, Griffin Legionnaire, Griffin Crossbowmen, Imperial Crossbowmen, Imperial Sentinel = 5. You can include the neutral Pao as well, I suppose.
2) To create stackable creatures -> Boneyard, Reanimation, Bone Setter, Dance of the Dead, Army of the Dead, Bone to Bone and Skeleton Master. Those are 7 ways to create stacks in necropolis (I said 6-7 because some are more reliable than others, still 7 possible ways in the end)
3) Infect on Plague Skeleton and Venom Soldier trumps all. Easier, faster, cheaper, more varied ways to increase these also and the fact they can be brought back to life easily with boneyard doesn't help :D These 2 creatures sitting on a deck pretty much wins you the lane unless taken care of via spells (a powerlane opens you to rotting zombie and geyser, a single creature will get blown apart by stacks + infect)

The only card that lives outside of this comparison is "Barracks", but as I replied to Infernal Wisdom -- there are more than only necropolis cards that need to be looked at in the game (this thread is however necropolis-oriented). But to be perfectly fair, I find necro tokens to be far more dangerous than Haven's ones, for the good reason they can fill the entire board and still manage to be increased every turn (which is not something barracks can do if they cannot deploy creatures anymore due to it being filled with barracks)


And I've read forum reports and watched enough streams too. That's not an argument. You don't have to go through forum search. I don't ask you for all competitions/tourneys/whatever. I ask you to share with us, how many times you personally met different factions/heroes during HoN, GB, SoB and ToR. I don't ask for your winrate, just tell us something along the lines of "345 games in HoN, played against Haven 56 times, Necro 79 times, Stronghold 35 times etc". You do have Replay manager, right?

With my main account purposedly parked at the champ1 rank, what good will my actual ratio encounters even do? I'll have something close to 60 or 70% necropolis though, if not higher (I recently had a 10+ necro streak if I remember right). I do have replay manager, but what you're asking would take time, bother me and in the end wouldn't even bring anything new that hasn't been said on this thread (aka, you would see a big fat majority of necro encounters, far more than in champ3). My point still stands though, you will see a lot of necropolis even in champ2-3, and in tourneys and comps.

ftr_midnight
08-08-2015, 07:07 PM
what good will my actual ratio encounters even do?
It will show how often different factions/heroes are picked - something that you started the topic with.


I do have replay manager, but what you're asking would take time, bother me and in the end wouldn't even bring anything new that hasn't been said on this thread (aka, you would see a big fat majority of necro encounters, far more than in champ3).
I have just spent 10 minutes to get the stats for myself over last month. You've spent a lot of time writing this topic, reading it, commenting it. You should find some time to get the numbers. It will bring weight to your words. Right now your words are just that - words. Recently I had a streak of 7 or 8 Ammars in a very short span of time. But I don't say that Ammar or Academy is too popular.

Licker34
08-09-2015, 06:26 AM
I appreciate this effort and discussion though I do not think Necro is remotely OP.

The problem is the nature of the matches vs. certain decks, in particular poison. It wasn't much different before people really realized that Anastasia completely sucked, everyone was crying about cripple, but you could beat the crap out of Ana 90% of the time unless you had a bad draw, her draw was almost irrelevant (other than the people who played her like a different version of Ariana, but there the cripple didn't really matter, Ana was still worse than Ariana though).

This goes to game design and mechanics, the same complaints as many have with MR, it's not that those MR decks are really OP, it's that they create completely unbalanced matchups, so either you are a 99% win (Stronghold and some time jump decks) or you are a 99% loss. That's just dull, much as Masfar was dull because the question was do you draw your CB in turns 4-7 or do you lose?

I'm all for some tweaks though. I know I proposed some time back that Boneyard should only work on skeletons (or creatures without magic requirement as alternative). You should drop their cost too if you make that change. Stacks in general should not be affected by Path (nerf to haven as well). Ariana should have her ability tweaked to not work on 'friendly' counters.

But that's about it really. I don't see a way to 'fix' poison without killing it, same for crippling, though no one really cares about that anymore, same for MR.

Ideally at some point we will get a BS3, which should include some tweaks to existing cards the way ToR changed some BS1 cards. I'm not optimistic about that happening, but it's better than throwing darts at necro in my opinion.

Stoneofhelp
08-10-2015, 05:33 PM
ok, so I only played for like a month in June and had a quick look at my replay manager. In that time I only really played creature decks, Seria Tokens, Ishuma, Kiril, and Cassandra. After 40 Games I have a 65% win rate vs these poison decks. Sooo... even creature decks which they are supposedly good against win more than they loose. If I was playing MR or Ammar or something I would probable do even better.

Mushidoz
08-17-2015, 09:03 PM
Just played a swiss.

http://s4.postimg.org/pxqtfoygd/proof.jpg

But hey, nobody picks necropolis, they're weak as **** (it so happens it was a necropolis *** that ended up first position too, with the super unreliable seria token deck)



As for your "stats" and your win ratio against that faction... I said it already, it is completely irrelevant. So many **** players spam necropolis and end up in ranks they don't deserve to be in that "more skilled" players eventually decimate the **** players and get wins on them. In fact, I have not yet read a single valid argument as to why the cards I pointed out are balanced. I've had people claim "they're okay" but no actual -valid- argument as to why what i presented in the first thread would be wrong. This is the same situation every time a necro thread is opened up, people defend it, but they offer nothing to back it with actual argument. Statistics are ******** and biased, it is way too easy to make them say whatever you want and none of the actual stats that we get (from replay manager) is even valid enough, because too many factors **** the whole thing up (things like what decks you play, who are you opponents, how did they get to the rank they are at, do you yourself abuse bull cards, etc.)

Meanwhile, necropolis continues to ruin the fun of the game for many players - and in a situation where we want as many players to stick around as possible, leaving necropolis in its current state is like replacing water from a tank plane trying to stop a forest fire..



Here's a bonus screenshot taken minutes ago from a stream (open swiss)
http://s29.postimg.org/slb9xm0d3/open.jpg

Licker34
08-17-2015, 10:13 PM
I don't see how people saying that they beat necro at a better than 50% clip doesn't directly argue against a point which states that necro is OP.

Necro is not OP. Necro is just very annoying because the poison and cripple mechanics (though cripple is such an afterthought now anyway) are not enjoyable to play against.

Same as MR, it's not really OP, it's just really boring to deal with.

Though...

When I need to do a necro daily I play 3/6/0 mother and cruise through anything other than MR, and the odd god hand Kiril stuff (Kiril has a lot of god hand potential though).

When I need to do a fortune daily I play Seria, but then I don't need to win even, just play a bunch of fortunes.

SkyNoir
08-23-2015, 02:01 PM
thn what bout Ichor weaver on Warding pillars and rotting mummies.