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MoritzJGOne
09-13-2004, 01:48 PM
Here is a website listed in a scale modeling article: http://tbd_devastator.tripod.com

Here is the Modeling Madness e-zine where I found it: http://www.modelingmadness.com/reviews/preww2/huitbd.htm

Let's see a flyable Devastator either in the game or as an early patch!

MoritzJGOne
09-13-2004, 01:48 PM
Here is a website listed in a scale modeling article: http://tbd_devastator.tripod.com

Here is the Modeling Madness e-zine where I found it: http://www.modelingmadness.com/reviews/preww2/huitbd.htm

Let's see a flyable Devastator either in the game or as an early patch!

Snootles
09-13-2004, 02:35 PM
Fan-taaastic stuff! Certainly looks like you could do all three positions from this, plus maybe some references on interior color and gauge function. From what I gather, the bombardier lay underneath the pilot's seat with that bay window. Would be neat to fly. Gunner position looks relatively simple.

I hope somebody with the skills takes it up.

******************************
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/theskatingribbit/Kudoarticleedited4ver3.jpg
This mysterious article appeared about a week ago in the Washington Post. When questioned about it, the EiC declined to respond. One truth prevails.

XyZspineZyX
09-13-2004, 03:01 PM
Yes, indeed: thanks!

Very basic instrumentation on this bird, huh?

But it sure wouldn't be fun to fly this turkey into combat.... not with any Zeros around!!!

Remember the lessons of Torpedo Sqn 8 at Midway. Frightful.

Snootles
09-13-2004, 03:04 PM
It's the same with the Stuka. They need good fighter escort or already obtained air superiority.

That's why the A-24 Dauntless and A-25 Helldiver were not popular with the USAAF- they figured they could send the planes in to fend for themselves and learned otherwise.

******************************
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/theskatingribbit/Kudoarticleedited4ver3.jpg
This mysterious article appeared about a week ago in the Washington Post. When questioned about it, the EiC declined to respond. One truth prevails.

VW-IceFire
09-13-2004, 03:13 PM
Ahh yes that site...some GREAT photos and information available on the Devastator. I mentioned that on this forum before...not sure if it was enough to do the modeling or not.

Flyable Devastator is a big thumbs up from me http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

lkemling
09-13-2004, 03:22 PM
Great site but lordy the popups drove me out!

Snootles
09-13-2004, 03:43 PM
Weird...I didn't get any. And I'm plagued by that krapp.

******************************
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/theskatingribbit/Kudoarticleedited4ver3.jpg
This mysterious article appeared about a week ago in the Washington Post. When questioned about it, the EiC declined to respond. One truth prevails.

Freycinet
09-13-2004, 04:04 PM
Use mozilla firefox as your browser and pop-ups and ads are a thing of the past... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

VW-IceFire
09-13-2004, 09:23 PM
www.mozilla.org (http://www.mozilla.org)

You'll never go back http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

Snootles
09-13-2004, 10:23 PM
Just downloaded it. Already having a blast.

Fight the power!

******************************
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/theskatingribbit/Kudoarticleedited4ver3.jpg
This mysterious article appeared about a week ago in the Washington Post. When questioned about it, the EiC declined to respond. One truth prevails.

aminx
09-14-2004, 12:28 AM
i've been asking about this essential plane since day one and after i renewed my request i got a rude reply!How can we play Midway without?
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Obi_Kwiet
09-15-2004, 05:30 PM
We need the Dauntless and the TBF way more.

Snootles
09-15-2004, 07:04 PM
They're already confirmed in as flyables. Now let's talk the Devastator and SB2U Vindicator.

******************************
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/theskatingribbit/Kudoarticleedited4ver3.jpg
This mysterious article appeared about a week ago in the Washington Post. When questioned about it, the EiC declined to respond. One truth prevails.

aminx
09-15-2004, 11:26 PM
right!
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

aminx
09-16-2004, 03:12 AM
link to TBD MIDWAY historical photo

http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/graphics/vt-8/torpedo_eight_formup.jpg

on their way to obliteration
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

aminx
09-16-2004, 03:26 AM
MIDWAY and the DEVASTATOR link:
--------------------------------
important historical photos and other material,go to general modelling,go to Midway section and start clicking.
http://www.ipmsusa.org/
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

aminx
09-16-2004, 04:01 AM
here

http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/Carrier_Squadrons/Torpedo_Eight/in_color.html

aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

aminx
09-16-2004, 11:25 AM
interesting detailed photos of the plane.
aminx
http://tbd_devastator.tripod.com/tbd/tbd.photopage.htm

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

[This message was edited by aminx on Thu September 16 2004 at 10:37 AM.]

Heavy_Weather
09-16-2004, 01:09 PM
very nice

"To fly a combat mission is not a trip under the moon. Every attack, every bombing is a dance with death."
- Serafima Amsova-Taranenko: Noggle, Ann (1994): A Dance with Death.

aminx
09-16-2004, 06:06 PM
damn right
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Burnin_777_AVG
09-16-2004, 06:35 PM
Sorry guys. Once again I must inform eveyone that a flyable TBD is not going to happen. At least not by the Deva team which includes me and my partner. Those pics are helpful and NOT enough. Unfortunately, those pics are all that exists really and they are not enough. There are no real life TBD's left above the ocean floor. I would love to say more, but I can't due to NDA. And before any of you jump down my throat and tell me I am being rude again. Bite me.

BV

heywooood
09-16-2004, 06:52 PM
Burnin' yer killin' me...

"There has to be a Devastator or theres no point in living!!!" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

lol... "you cant have Midway without this bird" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif...hahahahahhhehehehehee

...consider yerself bitten.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the real slim shady"

Burnin_777_AVG
09-16-2004, 09:16 PM
There will be a TBD, just not flyable.

BV

Copperhead310th
09-16-2004, 10:38 PM
Burnin CHECK YOUR EMAIL BRO. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

"Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was
a child but it was a lie
that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."Counting Crows

Burnin_777_AVG
09-16-2004, 11:41 PM
Ya I got it. Who is telling you I want to talk to you?

BV

Tdavart
09-17-2004, 12:00 AM
I'm kinda new here so pardon my ignorance...but...why wouldn't those pictures be enough? I know I could scratch build a model cockpit from those, and probably do a pretty decent 3D cockpit. Who will know the difference if a few details aren't right if there isn't a real one existing? Seems a crying shame to relegate a flyable TBD to the trashcan because we don't know where every nut and bolt goes. How may others won't make it in because of that? I can think of a few Japanese planes we will probably never see. Pity.

aminx
09-17-2004, 02:03 AM
thats exactly what i said months ago,nobody cares if the cockpit and panel is'nt exactly the way it really was,AOTP back in 1994 and cfs2(midway team)add on improvised their own and who complained?everybody climbed on board and went flying for months last year,i did'nt see one complaint over at Sim-Outhouse or Netwings criticizing the work.
Allow someone from your circle of friends over at Netwings dev group to do it and give it to us in the first patch out later on,why not???
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Burnin_777_AVG
09-17-2004, 07:33 AM
It's really funny how many times I have to say this. It's not me, it's Oleg's Standards. To get a cockpit into FB/PF you DO need to know exactly where every dial, switch, knob and bolt goes and their proper shape. The FB/PF cockpits are the best every made fo a computer sim and thats why. I could guess all day long, but Oleg would reject it cause it's just that. A GUESS. None of those pics are detailed enough to make proper models. Sorry.

BV

MoritzJGOne
09-17-2004, 09:10 AM
I am a member of IPMS (International Plastic Modelers' society) and I have seen more done with less data than presented here. (My guess that since the MIG -3 in Russia Air Force Museum is a 1:1 scale model, the IL-2 crew as worked with less in the past as well.)

The US model company, Monogram, made an accurate Devastator in 1/48 with cockpit and the Czech company Eduard has made a detail set, so more data is out there.

I will do this. In one month, I will contact the Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola to see when their library will be ready for requests. They were hit by Hurrican Ivan yesterday. Do not know if Museum was badly hit or not.

Second, since I am in St. Louis, I will inquire to Boening/McDonnell-Douglas to see if there are any operations manuals, working drawings, etc. to make the TBD cockpit a downstream reality.

actionhank1786
09-17-2004, 09:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MoritzJGOne:
I am a member of IPMS (International Plastic Modelers' society) and I have seen more done with less data than presented here. (My guess that since the MIG -3 in Russia Air Force Museum is a 1:1 scale model, the IL-2 crew as worked with less in the past as well.)

The US model company, Monogram, made an accurate Devastator in 1/48 with cockpit and the Czech company Eduard has made a detail set, so more data is out there.

I will do this. In one month, I will contact the Museum of Naval Aviation in Pensacola to see when their library will be ready for requests. They were hit by Hurrican Ivan yesterday. Do not know if Museum was badly hit or not.

Second, since I am in St. Louis, I will inquire to Boening/McDonnell-Douglas to see if there are any operations manuals, working drawings, etc. to make the TBD cockpit a downstream reality.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good luck with that!
And might i add, beautiful weather here in MO lately eh?


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v443/Actionhank/New-Tag.jpg

Actionhank
~Aaron White

SaQSoN
09-17-2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Those pics are helpful and NOT enough<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Now, *I* wouldn't say so. I wish there would be more data on the subject, but yet it looks pretty doable.
From other hand, if there will be done 1 deck based torpedo bomber, I am *sure* there would be whining about all other planes of that kind not done.
Thus, besides the TBD, Ilya would have to order B5N, D4Y and TBF at least, which might be too much for an addon. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
So, I guess, it's a situation where "all or none".

Tdavart
09-17-2004, 10:28 AM
I hear what you're saying Burnin, but really don't understand the logic. Who's going to know if the cockpit or gunner's position is'nt dead-on if a real one doesn't exist? I'm all for standards, but this seems to limit the game needlessly. I bet most would love the chance to see what it could have been like going up against the Japanese fleet in the clunker TBD. This is a simulation, right? But if not the TBD, at least include a flyable TBF. I think there are plenty of those around. If naval torpedo bombing isn't an option for players, it will make this game seem pretty incomplete.

Maj_Death
09-17-2004, 12:17 PM
I've said this once and I'll say it again, if PF doesn't include a reasonable set of torpedo bombers then I will not buy it. I urge all other flight sim fans to boycott it as well unless this very serious issue is addressed. No TBD in a pacific theatre sim is like no Bf-109 in europe. And that isn't even an exaggeration. Many of the most important battles in the pacific were won in large part by the TBD.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Spelling mistakes left in intentionally to annoy tttiger.

Maj_Death here, I/JG1_Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VWF and may join other online wars in the future. I am currently the acting CO, if you are interested in joining please PM me here or page me in HL.
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aminx
09-17-2004, 12:53 PM
you are harming your own efforts and investments for no reason whatsoever.You've completed 99%of the task and then you go out of your way to step right over it and for what ? an essential virtual cockpit or two.Yes the Kate needs a cockpit as well, why?just count how much damage she caused to the USN.please reconsider your priorities and take a broader view in the interest of eveyone historians included.
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

goshikisen
09-17-2004, 12:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Burnin_777_AVG:
It's really funny how many times I have to say this. It's not me, it's Oleg's Standards. To get a cockpit into FB/PF you DO need to know exactly where every dial, switch, knob and bolt goes and their proper shape. The FB/PF cockpits are the best every made fo a computer sim and thats why. I could guess all day long, but Oleg would reject it cause it's just that. A GUESS. None of those pics are detailed enough to make proper models. Sorry.

BV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What if someone like SaQSoN and his compatriots made a really kicka$$ attempt at the cockpit. It would be rejected out of hand? I find that a bit hard to believe. It's one thing to not do it because someone tells you you shouldn't and another to build the thing and convince someone that it is doable.

I don't build so I don't mean to understate the work involved... I just wonder how this could be approached.

Also... is this being rejected because Torpedo bombers will never be a part of PF or because of a lack of materials? If someone like SaQSoN says there is enough material to do a cockpit... I'd tend to believe him.

Copperhead310th
09-17-2004, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Burnin_777_AVG:
Ya I got it. Who is telling you I want to talk to you?

BV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Word got to me by one of the guys in my squad.

http://imageshack.us/files/copper%20sig%20with%20rank.jpg
310th FS & 380th BG website (http://www.310thVFS.com)

"Thought I might get a rocket ride when I was
a child but it was a lie
that I told myself when I needed something good
At 17 had a better dream
Now I'm 33 and it isn't me
But I'd think of something better if I could..."Counting Crows

SaQSoN
09-17-2004, 01:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I urge all other flight sim fans to boycott it <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ha-ha-ha!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> if someone like SaQSoN <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't work for free any more. Neither does anyone, who do can build high quality staff in a reasonable time.
Besides, see my post above. We have more or less enough reference materials for the TBD. I am sure, the reference for the TBF/TBM is not a problem at all. But what we have for the B5N or B6N, or any other Japanese TB? I affraid, - nothing.
And I, personally, don't see a big point in making TBs for one side only.
As I said: All, or none. And that's a good point.

butch2k
09-17-2004, 03:32 PM
Burnin, keep faith mate http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Give me some time and i may get what you need.

------
Admin of the AAW aviation history forums
http://forums.allaboutwarfare.com
(registration required)

Burnin_777_AVG
09-17-2004, 04:39 PM
Ok lets try 1 more time. This time READ what I actually type here. Yes, SaQson seems to know people that could make a reasonable attempt at the cockpit. Sure, it would be a close enough looking model for ME, but I'm not Maddox Games.

And second of all, all you whiners who have never even attempted a model can bite me. The TBD was not even going to be in the sim until I asked Ilya if me and my brillant partner Simon could build it. So, maybe you guys should at least say thanks for making it AI before you call me an A-hole again.

I've searched around for cockpit pics, data and manuals but I keep coming to the same set of pictures that I have already seen. And from what I know they aren't enough. If an experienced modeller wants to attempt it go ahead and try. I'm not going to stop you. What I will say is that my team won't be attempting to build it since we are on to other models now. If I could legally post a pic of it here I would, but I can't. But then again if I post a pic of it you guys would just complain more cause it looks so cool.

BV

aminx
09-17-2004, 10:09 PM
the above is really depressing news,i'd like to hear the previous generation war veterans,military buffs and historians opinion on all this,i'm not quite sure they would understand.We waited 10 years for a serious pacific sim to appear again and now it looks like we will have to wait again.
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

heywooood
09-17-2004, 11:08 PM
relax aminx - this one will have more than enough to satisfy even you...well maybe not you.

But everyone else will enjoy it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the real slim shady"

butch2k
09-18-2004, 01:38 AM
Burnin could you contact me offboard http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

------
Admin of the AAW aviation history forums
http://forums.allaboutwarfare.com
(registration required)

xanty
09-18-2004, 02:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What I will say is that my team won't be attempting to build it since we are on to other models now.
BV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Burning, you should have started with that statement and it would have saved you and us some pain. I reserve my opinion here, but saying it is unduable, it's a bit too strong s statement. However, I fully support your opinion of you and your team not doing it.

The TBD is a favorite of mine, and when i was toying with the idea of making it my next project, you cme along and made a great start. I thank you for that. I hope one day we can perhaps make a flyable version (albeit with internal compromises). Good work.

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

Tdavart
09-18-2004, 10:32 AM
Hmmm, you've got a bunch of interested sim players all trying to make the case for an aircraft that would really make the game complete. I didn't see any personal insults thrown. And yet we are all a bunch of whiners. I'm losing interest in this whole thing real fast.

Burnin_777_AVG
09-18-2004, 10:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xanty:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>What I will say is that my team won't be attempting to build it since we are on to other models now.
BV<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Burning, you should have started with that statement and it would have saved you and us some pain. I reserve my opinion here, but saying it is unduable, it's a bit too strong s statement. However, I fully support your opinion of you and your team not doing it.

The TBD is a favorite of mine, and when i was toying with the idea of making it my next project, you cme along and made a great start. I thank you for that. I hope one day we can perhaps make a flyable version (albeit with internal compromises). Good work.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Xanty,

This whole thing about the TBD on here has been going on and on for a couple months. These people here want to know so much about the sim and when I came along and gave them the straight dope they got angry at me for saying something wasn't going to happen. I was just being honest and straight-forward. Some people take that as rude. I have bent over backwards for this sim and all I ask is a little respect. I've never personally attacked anyone on this board, but people are percieving that for some reason.

On top of this thread there are a few more where I have already said my team wouldn't be pursuing this cockpit due to lack of references. If you want to attempt it Xanty go for it. I'll lend anything I have that would help you. But I just don't think an educated guess is good enough for Oleg. And I know for a fact we're rapidly running out of time for model building for FB/PF.

If any serious cockpit modeller wants to discuss this with me further email me at jasonlvnv@aol.com.

BV

heywooood
09-18-2004, 02:54 PM
it is a real shame that you are so put off now by the community, Burnin.

You must know that no matter how much effort you put into a project, you can never please everyone. It has been said that airplane enthusiasts/flight simmers are the most discriminating (not to mention oppinionated) group in the marketplace so all this criticism should not be a surprise. I will say that there are people here lately that dont seem to have any other purpose but to inflame others and incite you modelers for their own pleasure, but they must be disregarded
entirely.

An AI TBD will have to do - and if somewhere down the road it can be made flyable - that will be great.

I hope you can get to a place where the forum posters will be less of a nuisance to you. The only oppinions that should matter so much to you are those of your friends.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the real slim shady"

TX-WarHawk
09-18-2004, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
relax aminx - this one will have more than enough to satisfy even you...well maybe not you.

But everyone else will enjoy it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the real slim shady"



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see, that from some time, you've been developing some mysterious kind of affinity for aminx, was it at first sight? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"See I actually behave like Pappy that makes me him" VMF-214_Pappy

heywooood
09-18-2004, 04:44 PM
not at all - but you are looking for something?

I merely question negativity for its own sake.

Nothing constructive or helpful in that, so I wonder why they keep comming back.

what do you hope to accomplish with your question to me?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the real slim shady"

Pentallion
09-18-2004, 09:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaQSoN:
We have more or less enough reference materials for the TBD. I am sure, the reference for the TBF/TBM is not a problem at all. But what we have for the B5N or B6N, or any other Japanese TB? I affraid, - nothing.
And I, personally, don't see a big point in making TBs for one side only.
As I said: All, or none. And that's a good point.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately, NONE was not an option. This sim is worthless online without flyable torpedo bombers. What was Oleg thinking?

Once again we get a sim that is really only good for offline.

xanty
09-19-2004, 02:08 AM
what made you think offliners will be happy without a torpedo bomber? In fact, online you can hack on the AI planes, but offline, no. So.... It is a shame and amissed plane for "both worlds"

http://www.silence.plus.com/xanty/stuff/fb_sig.jpg

TX-WarHawk
09-19-2004, 02:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
not at all - but you are looking for something?

I merely question negativity for its own sake.

Nothing constructive or helpful in that, so I wonder why they keep comming back.

what do you hope to accomplish with your question to me?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the real slim shady"



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My hope is that you leave that dude alone, it's annoying to see that most of the time, when I see those two names in a thread, there's him asking for more and MORE realism (annoying, right? ) and then you posting various degrees of negative message to him. Good thing he never replies to any of those posts.

"See I actually behave like Pappy that makes me him" VMF-214_Pappy

SaQSoN
09-19-2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pentallion : Unfortunately, NONE was not an option. This sim is worthless online without flyable torpedo bombers. What was Oleg thinking?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is that a rule of conduct on this forum to not read carefully and understand other posters point, BEFORE posting your own?
Now, read it in caps:

WE DO NOT HAVE REFERENCE FOR MAKING THE CARIER BASED TORPEDO BOMBERS FOR *BOTH* SIDES, PRESENTED IN THE GAME. MAKING THIS KIND OF PLANES FOR ONLY ONE SIDE *IS NOT AN OPTION*.

Now, is that finally clear to you?
We have enough cockpit reference for TBD and TBF/TBM, but none for any Japanese carrier based torpedo bomber. If any of you do have such reference - send it to Luthier or Oleg.

GoToAway
09-19-2004, 06:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaQSoN:
WE DO NOT HAVE REFERENCE FOR MAKING THE CARIER BASED TORPEDO BOMBERS FOR *BOTH* SIDES, PRESENTED IN THE GAME. MAKING THIS KIND OF PLANES FOR ONLY ONE SIDE *IS NOT AN OPTION*.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This means that we'll never have a flyable TBF and that previous reports that it would be included in the first patch were false?

aminx
09-19-2004, 07:22 AM
PROVERB:
-------
in Switzerland we say take the bull by his horns.
ok now what it boils down to is to find the references for the Kate cockpit only and the problem is over.I have lots of free time available day and night for this research but can anyone tell me where to start,i imagine the best source would be japan itself.Further how can we organize ourselves to have some kind of "centralized command" where we communicate and see our progress to avoid confusion and then send on the final datas to oleg for approval and confirmation.
TBD:we where informed that there would be no flyable TBD because"there was'nt one available for ref on top of the ocean" and now we are informed that there is enough ref.OH!!but since the japs have no torp plane the USN wont have one!!!Now how many people would agree with this approach including the japanese and the whole of south east asia?I'd love to see the result of this poll.
TBF, TBM:cockpit ref available, will be flyable soon, delay due to workload is appreciated by everyone.
this sim can become a serious heavyweight with no contenders in sight respected by educated adult sim players, so please dont turn it into another onlign bash'em up battlefield stile arcade shooter.
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Penguin_PFF
09-19-2004, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by aminx:
the above is really depressing news,i'd like to hear the previous generation war veterans,military buffs and historians opinion on all this,i'm not quite sure they would understand.We waited 10 years for a serious pacific sim to appear again and now it looks like we will have to wait again.
aminx<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel sorry for all of your wives and girlfriends. They must be about ready to kill you.

So the game isn't serious because Burnin's group isn't making a TBD cockpit... OK... Well, if you need a sword or some rope to hang yourself, just let me know, because it seems that you're hell-bent on making a small detail into something you'd like to commit seppuku over.

It's a bit like deciding to hate a painting because of one brush-stroke... If this is how y'all approach the rest of life, I feel sorry for you.

Snootles
09-19-2004, 10:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I feel sorry for all of your wives and girlfriends. They must be about ready to kill you. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's all right, 'cos I don't have one!!!!! Though seriously, it sucks...

Anyway, yI would be quite disappointed if the majority of torpedo/dive bombers remain left out, but it's not going to kill the game for me or be the deciding factor for my purchase. I'm going to enjoy PF. Plain and simple. I just hope determined people work towards making more craft flyable. Hell, AEP still has a load of very important planes either not flyable or not in the game at all (Yermolayev Yer-2 anyone)?

******************************
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v448/theskatingribbit/Kudoarticleedited4ver3.jpg
This mysterious article appeared about a week ago in the Washington Post. When questioned about it, the EiC declined to respond. One truth prevails.

VW-IceFire
09-19-2004, 01:29 PM
I think the arguments of this sim being "worthless" should be relegated to other threads.

We're talking about the Devastator interior and if a bunch of people can dig up further information and evidence then we can add that to some fairly decent photographs to create an interior.

Thanks to Burnin for getting the plane done. Midway wouldn't be Midway without the plane...regardless of its flyable status. Give the man some breathing room...he did what he could and he told us quite a bit of information. For that I appreciate the effort.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RAF No 92 Squadron
"Either fight or die"

goshikisen
09-19-2004, 04:08 PM
Just out of interest... have any of the prospective designers of Japanese TB looked into the Maru Mechanic and Famous Airplanes of the World series?

On the Nakajima B5N we have:
Maru Mechanic #14: Nakajima Type 97 B5N & B6N Tenzan and Famous Airplanes #32: Type 97 Carrier Torpedo Bomber (Kate)

I'm sure many of the modellers are aware of these books... if not you can order them on Hobbylink Japan (although the Famous Airplane version is on backorder). I own the FAOW books on the Raiden, Hayate, and Shiden/Shiden-Kai and their cockpit photos are, I'd like to think, useful. Anybody seen the versions on the Kate?

Regards, Goshikisen.

heywooood
09-19-2004, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by TX-WarHawk:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by heywooood:
not at all - but you are looking for something?

I merely question negativity for its own sake.

Nothing constructive or helpful in that, so I wonder why they keep comming back.

what do you hope to accomplish with your question to me?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the bunnyman"



<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My hope is that you leave that dude alone, it's annoying to see that most of the time, when I see those two names in a thread, there's him asking for more and MORE realism (annoying, right? )

* Except he doesn't ask - he whines and demands things that may not be realistically possible with the limitations of the current hardware / software.

..and then you posting various degrees of negative message to him. Good thing he never replies to any of those posts.

* Well - it is tiring to read over and over all the drama about how it is "impossible to have a decent sim" without this or that or " its rediculous that this or that plane wont be included" when he has no idea what the f8ck he's talking about...heres an idea - why dont you and he go down to Dallas tomorrow..I understand that H G Wells is goung to be there with his time-machine. Yeah I know he is dead - but back in 1930 he tried to get to 1960 because he had been in 1980 long enough to learn about JFK's assassination so he'll be at the book depository tomorrow (because he missed 1960)... you guys can meet him there, borrow his machine, go back to 1939, join a flying club, enlist in the Navy of your choice, and get all up in your 'realisticality'
and leave the rest of us alone.

this software and these computers have their limitations and I for one am tired of the clones biotching about things that don't measure up to their unrealistic expectations.

I can visualize airial combat pretty well having actually flown an airplane once or twice - not to mention the other time or two that I have been dogfighting in T6's so get off.

These guys - xanty - Penguin - planeater - Burnin..etc are working their A$$es off 50+ or more hours a week and showing us their work in an attempt to get USEFULL assessments or USEFULL observations or some encouragement or whatever.. and instead they get cr^p whine.

There will be Torpedo bombers - they will be AI at release - they might one day be flyable.

I know aminx is a model builder like me, so I know he pays attention to small details, like I do....but you must suspend some of your expectations and realize the limitations that must exist which separate actual real life - from a simulation. You want a time machine and immortality to get what you want because thats the ONLY way to get what YOU want.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the bunnyman"

aminx
09-20-2004, 03:46 AM
ATT GOSHIKISEN
thanks link to HOBBYLINK Japan,lots of essential books to read here (watch out for language limitations in some cases)for the developers and us offcourse,will order the maru mechanic 14 this weeck lets see how long it takes to get to europe by air normal post.will then contact
Burnin through this thread once here to fax or airmail copy pages of interest to him.
link details to book and section below

http://www.hlj.com/scripts/hljpage.cgi?KJSMM14

aminx

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/wild.gif

[This message was edited by aminx on Mon September 20 2004 at 03:00 AM.]

TX-WarHawk
09-20-2004, 09:26 AM
I fuly understand it must be boring. It is to me too, I had many discussions with him about stuff he'd love to have in PF, and he's as stubborn as his posts show. You say he whines, that obviously can be classified as whining, the difference in this case is that he doesn't understand simulation programming in modern PCs, doesn't know **** about "ok todays PCs can't simulate this, it's ok", or "well, they can't put in this plane with cockpit, I hope somday this will be possible though", no way dude. He also isn't underestimating the developers work, or thinking that their doing **** with PF, this is what you think he's doing, he is not. Don't be angry at him because he WANTS all he wants, he isn't even talking to you, doesn't care about you ( do the same http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ).Some ppl who just ask for this or that, need mature words so the discussion ends in a good way, if that volunteer shows up, great, nice from you, you showed the exact opposite.

* Well - it is tiring to read over and over all the drama

OMG , who's forcing you to read what he types, or EVEN BETTER, who/what is forcing you to reply and waste time with him, lol, you even got some time to get that time machine idea, but that is best left alone, I'll try, at least to maintain some decent level of discussion.

Here's the last suggestion from me to you. Cool your head down when you see people who post about what they WANT ( not demand, that's YOUR definition ), some people don't need useless replies, , just read all developers and modelers post when theyre talking about serious info on how the game is going, start practicing from there, one day you'll have two choices before knowing what to do with the 1000000000th thread containing sentences like: that is RIDEECOOOOLAWS, I wants cokcpitzorz und o11 planes fo' d4 pecific. ( and dont come to me and say: AND YOU CALL THIS MATURE, lol, you know what I mean by that ) Example.
Either waste your time, again, and be as hot-headed as you were lately, or remember that not all ppl who you call "whiners" ask for the impossible just to disrespect the guys hard at work, living their life the way they love, oh no, some just like aminx, do not know if there's perfect photos or enough data to model a perfect plane ( for todays standard, of course ), they say they'd love to have it, that Midway wouldn't be the same without that specific plane, that the game would be arcadish without some stuff ( which is BS, but I messaged him about that and he admits that he was just using an exagerated comparison, he knows he made a mistake writing that ), it's just some WW2 enthusiast ( no need for your, imaginary time-machine ) who looked forward to have it, and SIMPLY needs a final educated mature word from, preferably the responsible for the project, whatever it may be, that it just wont happen immediately and maybe never. To get simpler than all that text: Be mad at him ( personally, a waste of time ), or leave it alone, so someone who CAN actually EXPLAIN the situation for that person in a GOOD WAY, and just move along and be happier http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . IF and only IF, you're gonna reply to this, do it with some mature level, forget all those attempts at jokes or negative messages, it only disrupts this discussion.

"See I actually behave like Pappy that makes me him" VMF-214_Pappy

heywooood
09-20-2004, 06:46 PM
well - there is some heavy condescension there.

1. the post I directed to aminx was not angry or hostile in intent - I really was not angry.
I probably should have used a smiley there.

2. you took offence to it - and looking at it now I can see why...but you were angry at me and I responded to that...alot of hostility and playground behavior on these boards lately. I cant deny I am responsible for some of that, chalk it up to a bad week...but no one can say I am responsible for all of it. be sure

3. the time machine thing was lame - but thats because it was spontaneous - its only purpose was to point out the difference between what people want and what is actually
possible.

4. you say read the modelers and developers posts? I do, that is the problem... most people do not. They see the text but dont understand it I guess and ask over and over for things that have already been explained clearly and repeatedly to the point of stopping those posts entirely. Now you see BV or Penguin et al only responding heatedly or not at all and their input is really the main reason for visiting this board. I am fascinated by all things PF and 3d warbird related.

My mistake was not taking their cue and just walking away - only checking in periodically and not posting, as BV has said he has started to do. What the he11, the point gets missed anyway.

5. Once again - I am not confrontational by nature (I am Scottish though-so..)even if lateley I have been.. and I really was not challenging aminx when I said PF will please everyone but him.
I just didn't use the http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif majigger

you did however challenge me directly...but thats cool - you and aminx are friends - good on ya for stickin' up for him.

Hope this clears the air...air needs to be clear to breathe properly.



6. everyone wants what they want, dont they.
I suppose I want as much from PF as anyone..but there is only so much code - and so much resource material and a very demanding team working very long hours that feels the same way we do...based on the work they have done already - I prefer to be more supportive.

I hope this was mature enough for you. I dont like condescension, or ridicule - it makes me cranky.

if you feel you must respond to this - please use pt - if you dont want to respond thats ok too..I am past caring what you or anyone on these boards think of me. I have not been here long but I have been here long enough. time to move on to deeper, bluer water.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/sair.jpg
"the bunnyman"

...maybe I'll check out that cwos board see what those clowns are up to.

[This message was edited by heywooood on Mon September 20 2004 at 05:59 PM.]

JG54_Lukas
09-21-2004, 06:26 AM
Just to lend my support to what Burnin has said:

Yes, the TBD pictures shown on that site are very good, but they aren't enough to make a model that meets Oleg's standards. One would need some more closeup shots of the dials, levers, etc., to really make the project a worthwhile effort.

Oh yeah, I modeled the He 162 cockpit. So I know what I'm talking about. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SaQSoN
09-21-2004, 08:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>TBD pictures shown on that site are very good, but they aren't enough<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, they are enough. Well, at least, combined with what I have. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

All-in-all it is only a matter of a modeller's skills. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TX-WarHawk
09-21-2004, 08:59 AM
You hit the bullseye. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"See I actually behave like Pappy that makes me him" VMF-214_Pappy

aminx
09-21-2004, 09:44 AM
great news saqson,now we can have the flyable Devastator as well.thanks a lot.
aminx

http://img25.photobucket.com/albums/v76/aminx/113.jpg

Tdavart
09-21-2004, 10:45 AM
What I am gathering now it not's the TBD that's the problem, but the Kate. I have a copy of Japanese Cockpits by Robert Mikesh showing the front and middle cockpits. Would that help?

xanty
09-24-2004, 08:57 AM
If u scan them and post them here, we could assess how much wou;ld they help.

I think the TBD, because it is a US plane and made by Douglas, it could be "figured out" between the small info, the SBD and some other US plane of the age. (IE: the 0.30cal station is very similar to the SBD and even the DB7/A20 or the Kinfisher. So...)

MoritzJGOne
09-24-2004, 10:48 AM
I will soon have the Maru Mechanic books on the Kate, Val, Raiden and Jill. This should give you anything you need.

Nimits
09-28-2004, 05:20 PM
I would rahter have an imperfectly modeled TBD, B5N, and B6N than none at all. And I would definately rather have flyable torpedo bombers for one side rather than none at all (The original Il-2 only had flyable bombers for one side, and even AEP does not have flyable bombers for the western Allies yet, so I really do not see a problem with only have TBs for the Allies if that is all that can be done for know). Please, please do not eliminate the possibility of flyable torpedo bombers in the near future because of the reasons listed above, even if it has to be in a separate paid torpedo bomber add-on.

I can seriously tell you that I would gladly pay full price for a pure torpedo bomber sim, even if the cockpits were not 100% accurate. Shoot, I would pay $40 just for a TBD sim.