PDA

View Full Version : Metaphysical, Mysticism, Magic... and other words starting with M



Sorrosyss
07-18-2015, 04:55 PM
http://i.imgur.com/Cu9W1cV.png

The Tyranny of King Washington was certainly an interesting addition to the AC universe. Here we had an alternate reality, shown to us by an Apple of Eden, where Connor (Ratonhnhaké:ton) drank tea from a mystical Red Willow Tree, and journeyed to the "Sky World" where he encountered several animal spirits who chose to imbue him with extra powers. These extra powers resulted in players having a few extra gameplay mechanics such as cloaking, faster parkour, and area attacks.

Many people do not see these events as canon, and I am not here to debate this either way. Rather, I am interested in what kind of elements akin to this, could be added to the franchise as a whole.

If you look throughout the games, most of the major events or 'miracles' are firmly established behind the Pieces of Eden as the cause. But then there is still some traditional magic within our AC world. If you look at Liberation, we have some evidence of Voodoo magic, and indeed a cult dedicated to it. We have the Father of Understanding, and whatever spiritual link it has with Baphomet that resulted in another such cult appearing in Unity.

Then there is the Grey. The not quite death/afterlife/internet/matrix metaphysical mash up. Was that created by First Civilisation? Highly debatable. There are likely other examples in the franchise, but I do believe there is the potential - as in the real world - for things to be larger than life.

With the recent announcement of the Salem Witch Trials being the focus of the upcoming comic series, it seems a fitting time to discuss this. In Syndicate we are getting the grappling hook, which is a slightly slower version of the Eagle Flight ability bestowed to us in the Tyranny. How would you feel if our Assassins suddenly started to tap into extra powers? Would you be interested to see the different gameplay mechanics it might add to the series? What if our Templar enemies started casting spells at us? Without the Pieces of Eden, does it stray too far into fantasy and sci-fi genres?




# UPDATE : 2016-04-09

New survey with some intriguing questions... (no disclaimer)

In light of the recent discussions about how the next game may resemble Witcher 3, I found this quite interesting.

http://i.imgur.com/Wajr3x9.png



http://i.imgur.com/GRU0E11.png

VestigialLlama4
07-18-2015, 05:40 PM
In Syndicate we are getting the grappling hook, which is a slightly slower version of the Eagle Flight ability bestowed to us in the Tyranny. How would you feel if our Assassins suddenly started to tap into extra powers? Would you be interested to see the different gameplay mechanics it might add to the series? What if our Templar enemies started casting spells at us? Without the Pieces of Eden, does it stray too far into fantasy and sci-fi genres?

To me the Assassins have always been magical beings. They have Eagle Vision, they have superhuman stamina and muscle control. No one in real-life can Parkour or climb buildings like the Assassins and then you have the Leap of Faith, which is pure magic. That magical core is never really explained too deeply, is it an Animus exaggeration or actual memories, there is a fundamental ambiguity about the physical capabilities of the Assassins as something that should be taken literally or as part of the Assassin core.

Adding extra magical elements to me defeats the purpose. Fundamentally there has to be something the Assassin does by hand. You have to climb that building, get to this point, that place at this time. Without that measure of heavy lifting, the games get broken in my view. That's why I don't like the Grappling Hook at Syndicate at all.

To me the Assassin Creed games are a mix of genres - its science-fiction(the whole genetic memory and Animus tech which is plain bonkers) but not science-fiction, its fantasy (First-Civ technology and Sages and Temples) but not fantasy and its historical fiction in the main, except for the parts which are science-fiction and fantasy. The point is it is all these genres at the same time, its never one then the other, it happens simultaneously. At the end of AC2, Ezio, a fictional Assassin uses his abilities to enter Castel Sant'Angelo, infiltrate Sistine Chapel and attack Pope Alexander VI in the middle of High Mass. The place, setting, target is historical and since we don't see Michelangelo's ceiling its extremely specific about time and place. Then from there it goes into a fantastic and science-fiction realm with the final part of the battle. That's what the AC games are about.

The truth is that the concept of AC is bursting with potential. There are lots of experimental stuff you can do in the games and the fact is Ubisoft is spoiled with choices. With Tyranny of King Washington, you have alternate universe but you can go further than that. You can show for instance like say that the 20th Century we live in is in fact an alternate universe and through the Apple we can revisit the memories of someone who changed history and reshaped the world. You can do all kinds of cool science-fiction and historical stuff.

pacmanate
07-18-2015, 09:08 PM
The Red Willow Tree stuff was a drug, basically.

Connor was basically getting different "highs" different "powers" when he drank the stuff.

Everything you see in the animus is the animus' rendition of what Connor felt.

That's all it was.

SixKeys
07-18-2015, 09:57 PM
I dismiss all claims of magic in the world of AC. Apart from certain game-y elements like blending and leaps of faith, the series started as historically accurate and grounded in reality. The first game flat-out denounced all the major religions by claiming Jesus was a fraud and Moses never parted the Red Sea, that they were all illusions created by a piece of advanced technology. In the AC universe, "magic" is just the stuff TWCB left lying around. Advanced tech, nothing more.

I don't mean to start an argument about religion or spirituality, I'm simply saying that this particular game world was conceived as an unusually secular one. It would be inconsistent to suddenly introduce magical elements that have no basis in science (even made-up mumbo jumbo like the Animus). In ToKW, they do sort of explain the Red Willow Tree as having roots in an ancient First Civ temple or something, but to me it's too vague and far-fetched to justify adding bona fide superpowers and shapeshifting into the AC universe. If we're going down that route, we might as well abandon all pretense of realism altogether. You get a free superpower, and you get a free superpower! Everybody gets superpowers!

That's why I don't consider ToKW as canon. Even as a fevered Apple-induced dream it doesn't make sense to me. I don't remember the voodoo stuff in Liberation, but if it was portrayed as something actually mystical instead of just a religion or something First Civ-tech based, then I denounce that too. I'm willing to suspend my disbelief for many things in AC, but as soon as the series flat out abandons scientific explanations and starts acting like magic is real, that's when they've lost me.

Locopells
07-19-2015, 12:00 AM
I'll still hold to the theory that that powers on ToKW were First Civ based. If, in ToKW you go to where the Grand Temple is in ACIII, it's not there - just a large rockfall. This suggest that, in this alternative timeline, Haytham tried to access the Temple by force - as Juno waned against - Temple self destructs and, as a by-product, causes the Great Willow (which doesn't exist in the real timeline and is the source of all the powers) to grow.

Xstantin
07-19-2015, 12:10 AM
Nah, no magic please. The games already have some crazy stuff with TWCB so I'm not sure how mixing it up with casting spells will make it better.

pineal_gland
07-19-2015, 01:28 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtT6Xkk-kzk

Alphacos007
07-19-2015, 04:31 AM
Sorry but the video is way too long. Could you TL;DW?

VestigialLlama4
07-19-2015, 05:34 AM
I dismiss all claims of magic in the world of AC. Apart from certain game-y elements like blending and leaps of faith, the series started as historically accurate and grounded in reality. The first game flat-out denounced all the major religions by claiming Jesus was a fraud and Moses never parted the Red Sea, that they were all illusions created by a piece of advanced technology.

Personally Jesus and Moses are far more modest claiming their good works to an unknown power. That is humble. The game saying that all the past achievements and good works was because the ancients had access to cheat codes to advanced technology is incredibly arrogant and hilarious. I'll take religious explanations over that any day.


It would be inconsistent to suddenly introduce magical elements that have no basis in science (even made-up mumbo jumbo like the Animus). In ToKW, they do sort of explain the Red Willow Tree as having roots in an ancient First Civ temple or something, but to me it's too vague and far-fetched to justify adding bona fide superpowers and shapeshifting into the AC universe.

Except TOKW is clearly and unambiguously presented as an in-game fantasy and vision. This has been stated to you countless times. The Red Willow tree does not exist, its a fantasy based on aspects of Kanienka;haka spirituality, as is the Sky World.

And if we are going to talk about superpowers and shape-shifting what about the Apple of Eden wielded by Ezio and Altair. Ezio's Apple in Brotherhood sends force blasts and golden energy all around. Altair in Revelations summoned shadow assassins from the Sky, that is magic pure and simple and its just as overpowered as what we see in Tyranny of Washington, where at least we are told repeatedly that the events in the game are a fantasy (the Animus Fragments in each episode, the very first scene where we see flashes of Prime Connor and Prime Washington flashing out).

RA503
07-19-2015, 07:06 AM
I hope we can do time travels in the future like Nolan said that was the original plan for Desmond...

Darby said that he and the other writters wrote 200 years of First Civ lore,probably all this will be revelated in the next projects, new pieces of eden obvious will show:

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20121105143533/assassinscreed/images/thumb/1/12/Glyph-Pentagram.png/180px-Glyph-Pentagram.webp Will be cool if we have a piece of eden in the form of pentagram in the witches comic,its a symbol of goddess venus and magic,its misinterpreted as a devil thing by other religions...

VestigialLlama4
07-19-2015, 07:36 AM
I hope we can do time travels in the future like Nolan said that was the original plan for Desmond...

Darby said that he and the other writters wrote 200 years of First Civ lore,probably all this will be revelated in the next projects, new pieces of eden obvious will show:

That's a mistake in my view. Mr. McDevitt said that you can go two ways with the First Civ, either make it mysterious and other and not entirely knowable, or give them a full history. The AC writers have made the second, and far more conventional choice.

The story should be grounded in history with bits of science-fiction and fantasy to facilitate the gameplay. The core of the story should be relatable and human, if they are focusing more on fantasy than history, the series will die. Because it can't stand on its own.

Alphacos007
07-19-2015, 07:36 AM
Personally Jesus and Moses are far more modest claiming their good works to an unknown power. That is humble. The game saying that all the past achievements and good works was because the ancients had access to cheat codes to advanced technology is incredibly arrogant and hilarious. I'll take religious explanations over that any day.

Wait, what?
The explanation for their "powers" on the games is that they had PoEs. Just an Apple would be enough to do all of Jesus' miracles, except for the resurrection, which is the work of another PoE that I can't remember the name. The same goes for Moses. I don't get your "cheat codes" thing. If you think that the PoEs themselves are ridiculous, then it's a completely different discussion.

RA503
07-19-2015, 07:42 AM
That's a mistake in my view. Mr. McDevitt said that you can go two ways with the First Civ, either make it mysterious and other and not entirely knowable, or give them a full history. The AC writers have made the second, and far more conventional choice.

The story should be grounded in history with bits of science-fiction and fantasy to facilitate the gameplay. The core of the story should be relatable and human, if they are focusing more on fantasy than history, the series will die. Because it can't stand on its own.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGRlrMmNxsJgCAwmCq1-5kAv_bgPxk6bOucIzLORL0j3H8mOQh

Alphacos007
07-19-2015, 07:48 AM
That's a mistake in my view. Mr. McDevitt said that you can go two ways with the First Civ, either make it mysterious and other and not entirely knowable, or give them a full history. The AC writers have made the second, and far more conventional choice.

The story should be grounded in history with bits of science-fiction and fantasy to facilitate the gameplay. The core of the story should be relatable and human, if they are focusing more on fantasy than history, the series will die. Because it can't stand on its own.


I'll just repost this because it's a perfect answer.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGRlrMmNxsJgCAwmCq1-5kAv_bgPxk6bOucIzLORL0j3H8mOQh

VestigialLlama4
07-19-2015, 07:55 AM
I'll just repost this...

Please do so, clearly it helps you sleep better at night.

Altair1789
07-19-2015, 07:56 AM
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRGRlrMmNxsJgCAwmCq1-5kAv_bgPxk6bOucIzLORL0j3H8mOQh

Well, he did say


in my view

SixKeys
07-19-2015, 11:51 AM
Personally Jesus and Moses are far more modest claiming their good works to an unknown power. That is humble. The game saying that all the past achievements and good works was because the ancients had access to cheat codes to advanced technology is incredibly arrogant and hilarious. I'll take religious explanations over that any day.

What "unknown power"? They straight up said their powers came from God. That's not an unknown power, they're referring to a specific entity. If I performed a great feat of strength and said "this is all thanks to Bob", I'm not referring to an unknown power.

The games never claim that all past achievements and good works were due to TWCB. Just that humanity made up the concept of gods because their ancestors didn't have a better explanation for what they viewed as miracles. If a modern person with their smartphones and computers would travel to the past, they would probably be viewed as gods, too. It's not arrogant to assume that sufficiently advanced technology could be mistaken for magic. We still have people who believe the pyramids were created by aliens because they simply cannot fathom how else Egyptians could have built them.


Except TOKW is clearly and unambiguously presented as an in-game fantasy and vision. This has been stated to you countless times. The Red Willow tree does not exist, its a fantasy based on aspects of Kanienka;haka spirituality, as is the Sky World.

Okay, but if we start coming up with BS explanations any time the devs want to make a superhero game instead of an Assassin's Creed game, we might as well give up on the lore now. What's to stop the devs from having Jesus himself descend down from the heavens and giving Jacob the power of laser vision? Hey, it's all based on Christian spirituality, which existed in Victorian England. :rolleyes:


And if we are going to talk about superpowers and shape-shifting what about the Apple of Eden wielded by Ezio and Altair. Ezio's Apple in Brotherhood sends force blasts and golden energy all around. Altair in Revelations summoned shadow assassins from the Sky, that is magic pure and simple and its just as overpowered as what we see in Tyranny of Washington, where at least we are told repeatedly that the events in the game are a fantasy (the Animus Fragments in each episode, the very first scene where we see flashes of Prime Connor and Prime Washington flashing out).

Indeed. I've said before that the Apple was way too powerful a plot device. It went from a Macguffin to a literal deus ex machina for any kind of wild crap the devs wanted to put in the game. In AC1 all it did was create powerful visions. By AC3 it could shoot lightning, create holograms, make people's heads explode, slow time, predict the future, communicate with TWCB and show the past. I want them to cut down on all this craziness, not put more in. ToKW, whatever the in-game explanation was, teetered too close to taking the franchise in a direction I'm not interested in. A few 'WTF' moments here and there have always been part of AC, but ToKW was based entirely in WTF-ery. It's also the reason why Desmond's Journey and The Lost Archive never quite worked, despite being based on an interesting concept.

VestigialLlama4
07-19-2015, 12:53 PM
Okay, but if we start coming up with BS explanations any time the devs want to make a superhero game instead of an Assassin's Creed game, we might as well give up on the lore now.

If you are objecting to the principle of TOKW that is to say, use the Lore to occassionally do something fantastic, if you object to that in principle then I accept that. That's fair. But you know occassionally you can do something crazy too. Like Red Dead Redemption had Undead Nightmare for instance, and for me, Undead Nightmare was a good deal more fun and cool as gameplay than the main game. And you know developers are interested in going into crazy areas. Like Darby McDevitt said that the initial idea for Black Flag DLC was to do a Devils of the Caribbean game. An alternate universe game with Krakens, Parrots, Skeletons and Bad Accents as well as the Flying Dutchman myth. Likewise Paris in Multiple Eras a la the original Red Violin idea of Yohalem is part of that experimental desire to move past the conventional one-protagonist one-timeline narrative they are keeping.

And furthermore, Tyranny of King Washington, is grounded in history. The real-life George Washington was offered to be made King of America and he refused. He also set the precedent for terms of limit for office by stepping down at a time when supporters (like Alexander Hamilton) wanted to make him President for Life. So its a fantasy grounded in the reality of Washington's temptations and it uses the AC lore of the Apple of Eden representating ultimate power and corruption to make that playable as a dilemma . So its not as out of place as you think it is. Its an alternate universe grounded on real temptations and actual roads not taken.


By AC3 it could shoot lightning, create holograms, make people's heads explode, slow time, predict the future, communicate with TWCB and show the past.

It doesn't make anyone's heads explode. Desmond possesses one of the Abstergo guards to shoot Warren Vidic in the head. He also possesses other guards to kill themselves and commit suicide. That's same as ACB. As for predicting the future. AC2's Codex revealed that Altair was shown visions of the past and future. So its always been part of that. Nothing we see there contradicts the Apple in earlier games. In Brotherhood, they say that when Hologram-Minerva touched the Apple she changed it somewhat. That is an Hologram changing a physical object!? Think about that, so they were always absurdly powerful objects, highly versatile and capable of anything.


I want them to cut down on all this craziness, not put more in.

I agree with you completely. What they should do is say the Apples are the most powerful objects and make them rare. And that's what AC3 did. The apple is not part of the historical narrative at all. Its only the DLC and even there the point is to give up the Apple completely.

But then the recent games change it. Now you have Earthquake Machines and a Box in ROGUE that can reduce cities. In Brahman and Syndicate, you have a Diamond that really is a girl's best friend, and the Apple is so much yesterday's news that Arno can take it from a fairly accessible Church basement and then happily ship it of to Egypt like a champ.


ToKW, whatever the in-game explanation was, teetered too close to taking the franchise in a direction I'm not interested in. A few 'WTF' moments here and there have always been part of AC, but ToKW was based entirely in WTF-ery.

Well its a DLC, its not part of the main game and the DLC is presented as a vision and shared dream. In AC1, the WTFery of the finale with Altair and Al Mualim unquestionably happened in the prime world, in AC2, Ezio did beat up the Pope in a fist-fight in a quasi-Pagan vault, in the same game Ezio hang-glided across Venice. In Brotherhood, Leonardo's war machines are real and Ezio really did use an Apple of Eden in broad daylight in front of vast crowds. Its only with Revelations that they started dialing down (courtesy of Darby McDevitt) and introduced more subtle McGuffins like Memory Seals (an underused concept in my view). In AC3, the only piece of eden is that Crystall Ball which Juno uses to communicate with Connor, the actual historical part of AC3 does not revolve around any magical objects, its entirely about history and ideology. The DLC uses it create a giant dream sequence. And then in Black Flag you had the Sages/Blood Vials/Observatory, Powerful but not gamebreakingly so.

So if you have a problem with WTF-ery then the place to go is not the Kenway games at all. But ROGUE and DEAD KINGS (Unity I am giving a pass to on that score at least).

Alphacos007
07-19-2015, 07:16 PM
Well, he did say

in my view

Yea, but the "in my view" part was about they making a mistake, not about the story not beeing able to hold itself if they start adding mora fantasy.


Please do so, clearly it helps you sleep better at night.

Why all the butthurt? I simply said that it was your opinion, and I disagree with it. I DO agree that the games are more interesting without all the fantasy and more misticism, but I don't think it can't hold itself if it starts putting in too much fantasy. It'll simply change the focus of the stories.


If you are objecting to the principle of TOKW that is to say, use the Lore to occassionally do something fantastic, if you object to that in principle then I accept that. That's fair. But you know occassionally you can do something crazy too. Like Red Dead Redemption had Undead Nightmare for instance, and for me, Undead Nightmare was a good deal more fun and cool as gameplay than the main game. And you know developers are interested in going into crazy areas. Like Darby McDevitt said that the initial idea for Black Flag DLC was to do a Devils of the Caribbean game. An alternate universe game with Krakens, Parrots, Skeletons and Bad Accents as well as the Flying Dutchman myth. Likewise Paris in Multiple Eras a la the original Red Violin idea of Yohalem is part of that experimental desire to move past the conventional one-protagonist one-timeline narrative they are keeping.

I agree, it was fun and interesting, but I don't think it should be made as lore. TOKW is tied withing the game's story so it's saying that everything that happened there is actually possible, even though it did not happen. It should just be a separate fun DLC.



But then the recent games change it. Now you have Earthquake Machines and a Box in ROGUE that can reduce cities. In Brahman and Syndicate, you have a Diamond that really is a girl's best friend, and the Apple is so much yesterday's news that Arno can take it from a fairly accessible Church basement and then happily ship it of to Egypt like a champ.
Honestly, I don't see those as a problem. The "earthquake" machines are not designed to destroy cities, quite on the contrary, they are deviced that hold the land together.That's why, when Shay de-activates them, the earth crumbles, and becomes unstable and suceptible for more earthquakes down the road. Seems to me like a pretty logical thing to me, for a highly technology-advanced civilization. Iif we had the tecnology to stop earthquakes, I'm sure we would build such machines to stop them from happening. My only issue with them is that they are way too fragile, if you touch them, they instantly de-activate. For such important machines, one would think that there would be more fail-safe features.
The Apple in Dead Kings was hidden in an Underground temple that could only be oppened with a special key, that only fit one special lock, after answering the puzzles and not dieing for the "ghosts" or whatever those holograms were. Seems like a standard temple defense for me. it was actually one of the hardest vaults to open, if you look back at the previous games.
My problem was with Unity's PoE. First of all, Abstergo is showing it to everyone on that DeMolay sequence, WTF? Wasn't it supposed to be a secret? And second, it stops working one you get it. Why the hell would a PoE stop working just out of the blue? There should at least be an explanation.


Indeed. I've said before that the Apple was way too powerful a plot device. It went from a Macguffin to a literal deus ex machina for any kind of wild crap the devs wanted to put in the game. In AC1 all it did was create powerful visions. By AC3 it could shoot lightning, create holograms, make people's heads explode, slow time, predict the future, communicate with TWCB and show the past.
I always thought that all of that was just illusions? Shooting lightning is just a visual effect; creating holograms is just another kind of illusion; as Vestigia said, it doesn't make people's heads explode, it makes the guards kill themselves like the ones in the room with vidic, and the same goes for the ones you kill with the apple in brotherhood; time is just a perception, an illusion can change your perception and make like you're in slow motion. The only """new""" thing is communicating with TWCB, but that doesn't seem too absurd for me. Showing the past is just communicating with TWCB mixed with illusions/holograms.
I don't want them to go crazy either, I like the realism and misticism, but I don't think they went as far as you're saying right now.

SixKeys
07-19-2015, 07:52 PM
If you are objecting to the principle of TOKW that is to say, use the Lore to occassionally do something fantastic, if you object to that in principle then I accept that. That's fair. But you know occassionally you can do something crazy too. Like Red Dead Redemption had Undead Nightmare for instance, and for me, Undead Nightmare was a good deal more fun and cool as gameplay than the main game. And you know developers are interested in going into crazy areas. Like Darby McDevitt said that the initial idea for Black Flag DLC was to do a Devils of the Caribbean game. An alternate universe game with Krakens, Parrots, Skeletons and Bad Accents as well as the Flying Dutchman myth. Likewise Paris in Multiple Eras a la the original Red Violin idea of Yohalem is part of that experimental desire to move past the conventional one-protagonist one-timeline narrative they are keeping.

I don't have a huge problem with the DLC existing. I recognize that it was very much inspired by Undead Nightmare (reusing the same game world with a darker twist). Heck, I liked the first episode of ToKW more than AC3 proper. But I still don't consider it canon. It's just too outlandish to feel like an AC game. The wolf power is the only one I like because it makes stealth more fun, a feature that was utterly broken otherwise. The other two powers take away from, rather than add to, the AC experience. Eagle flight has the same problem as Syndicate's rope launcher: it bypasses the need for parkour. Bear power is OP and bypasses the need to be skilled in combat. I appreciate the devs trying to do new things once in a while, but I don't want them veering off into fantasyland too often.


And furthermore, Tyranny of King Washington, is grounded in history. The real-life George Washington was offered to be made King of America and he refused. He also set the precedent for terms of limit for office by stepping down at a time when supporters (like Alexander Hamilton) wanted to make him President for Life. So its a fantasy grounded in the reality of Washington's temptations and it uses the AC lore of the Apple of Eden representating ultimate power and corruption to make that playable as a dilemma . So its not as out of place as you think it is. Its an alternate universe grounded on real temptations and actual roads not taken.

I know all that. I think they could have done something interesting with the idea, like the Apple creating a warning vision of things that could actually come true were Washington to take the crown and use the Apple. But if the vision was meant as a warning, then it wasn't a very good one since Connor could never gain superpowers, his mother couldn't come back from the dead etc. Why show a vision that's completely unlikely to ever happen in reality?

My other problem with the DLC is the same one Noah Watts mentioned in an interview: they took such great care to portray the natives respectfully and without clichéd tropes in the main game. None of the "Magical Negro/Native", connected-with-nature, painting with the colors of the wind romanticizing that's so common in white depictions of native culture. Then they get to ToKW and it's like a collective release of a major case of blue balls from the production team who suddenly rush to put every trope in the book into the DLC. Connor is suddenly in tune with nature on a spiritual level, to the point where he can literally communicate with animals, call upon them for aid in battle and use their spirit powers to take revenge upon the evil white people, he's suddenly a bare-chested, angry warrior clad in wolfskins and war paint, etc. He acts like a totally different character from the gentle, soft-spoken introvert from AC3 proper, and I don't think this was accidental. He plays like a toy from a G.I. Joe commercial. Maybe there is symbolic intent behind it like you suggested, being a collection of clichés from Washington's subconscious, but it just doesn't sit right with me. It feels like they wanted to put a bunch of cliché ideas in the main game but were afraid to piss off the native consultants, so they stuck them all in a DLC and hoped they wouldn't notice.


It doesn't make anyone's heads explode. Desmond possesses one of the Abstergo guards to shoot Warren Vidic in the head. He also possesses other guards to kill themselves and commit suicide.

My bad. Either way, AC3 was just the culmination of a steady escalation of the Apple's powers. I'm not saying it was the only game to make it absurdly powerful, just that by the time they got there, they had already established that it was capable of pretty much anything you could think of. IMO it should have only possessed the powers it was shown to have in AC1 and AC2. ACB pushed it into OP territory.

VestigialLlama4
07-19-2015, 08:07 PM
Honestly, I don't see those as a problem. The "earthquake" machines are not designed to destroy cities, quite on the contrary, they are deviced that hold the land together.

That explanation makes zero sense. Holding the land together means that the natural state of earth was a shaking, eternal mess and the First Civilization, who are not aliens (we are told by the game) somehow managed to invent devices that stabilize the earth plates, presumably while it was still shaking and cracking up. If the First Civilization could do that then they should never have been wiped out by the first Toba Catastrophe. Even within the Lore that is phenomenally absurd. Earthquakes are not man made for a reason. To have control over the movement of the earth tectonic plates, if such control is even desirable (it could mess with our gravity for instance) is to have an unfathomable level of power far beyond humanoid abilities. The First Civ are advanced ancient humans. The abilitiy to physically command earth and skies is to make them as powerful as the God of the Old Testament (or the Torah) which we are shown and told to be explicitly not true in the ACverse. The majority of them died in the Toba catastrophe, whereas in the Bible, God is the Toba Catastrophe or a force of similar nature.


My only issue with them is that they are way too fragile, if you touch them, they instantly de-activate. For such important machines, one would think that there would be more fail-safe features.

My real problem is how these devices can trigger an earthquake several feet below the earth's crust when Shay at best drops down into a very low Church basement and sewer. Its not near enough to the earth crust to trigger something like that. These devices are supposed to have the appearance of science. If these little pivots can trigger an earthquake that means they unleash a force to do so, and if they unleashed a force to do so, then Shay cannot be standing alive in the same room. That follows that these pivots trigger the earthquake like a remote control bomb, which means that they were specifically constructed to tap into that energy and that means that these pivots are in fact weapons.

Then there's also the question of architecture, When they built that Church on top, they would have found these pivots for sure because its not low enough below earth to be hidden away. Anything with that space would be hollow enough that an experienced labourer and architect would have dug it up when they do the foundation work. It doesn't even need a Piece of Eden to enter like the Vault in the Vatican, Colosseum or the Grand Temple.

Then there's the question of story aesthetics. Character development literally comes from a fantastic incident with nothing in the real world to connect it to. In AC1, Altair learns a lesson in humility, restraint and curiosity. It comes from him learning that his arrogance led to the death of Malik's brother and the compromise of the brotherhood. Not everyone may have done something that bad but we can relate to that guilt of having let down your family and friends. In AC2, Ezio learns that the world is vast, mysterious and complex that you have to find your own answers. Again that's a coming of age story and theme, we can relate to that. In AC3, well the magical element is very little there in the main plot and its about the best intentions and wishes not producing anything long lasting, about hopes and disappointment. In Black Flag, Edward like Altair realizes he's been a bad friend and bad husband.

What lesson do we learn from ROGUE, when looking for magical objects don't trip over or you might cause an earthquake? No one can relate to that meaningfully, its a contrived scenario where the Assassins are bad guys but not bad guys, so that the player plays a Templar who is right? About the only message it has is that put a black man in charge and he'll level the whole world with two earthquakes and that its upto a band of right-thinking white men (and their token black friend) to stop him.

Alphacos007
07-19-2015, 08:53 PM
That explanation makes zero sense. Holding the land together means that the natural state of earth was a shaking, eternal mess and the First Civilization, who are not aliens (we are told by the game) somehow managed to invent devices that stabilize the earth plates, presumably while it was still shaking and cracking up. If the First Civilization could do that then they should never have been wiped out by the first Toba Catastrophe. Even within the Lore that is phenomenally absurd. Earthquakes are not man made for a reason. To have control over the movement of the earth tectonic plates, if such control is even desirable (it could mess with our gravity for instance) is to have an unfathomable level of power far beyond humanoid abilities. The First Civ are advanced ancient humans. The abilitiy to physically command earth and skies is to make them as powerful as the God of the Old Testament (or the Torah) which we are shown and told to be explicitly not true in the ACverse. The majority of them died in the Toba catastrophe, whereas in the Bible, God is the Toba Catastrophe or a force of similar nature.

They can create devices that allow you to control people, ressurect people, a sword that shoots lightning, they had laser weapons and force fields, they could preview the future, and show the past to those in the future. I don't think that creating temples that holds the earth against earthquakes is that far away. We can already control the weather with the technology we have today.
And the toba was something much bigger that came from the sun, and they DID have the ability to survive it, they just didn't have the time to build such devices, because they found out about the catastrophe too late, because they were busy with the war agains humans.



My real problem is how these devices can trigger an earthquake several feet below the earth's crust when Shay at best drops down into a very low Church basement and sewer. Its not near enough to the earth crust to trigger something like that. These devices are supposed to have the appearance of science. If these little pivots can trigger an earthquake that means they unleash a force to do so, and if they unleashed a force to do so, then Shay cannot be standing alive in the same room. That follows that these pivots trigger the earthquake like a remote control bomb, which means that they were specifically constructed to tap into that energy and that means that these pivots are in fact weapons.

We don't see the entirety of the temples, we barely see the pedestal which holds the orb. There are huge holes on the sides, and you can't know how far down do the machines go. And we have no idea how they work, except that removing the orb de-activates it. The orb could very well be a energy source, and once removed the machines stop working. There's no point discussing this part as we have no idea how any of that works, there is no explanation at all.


Then there's also the question of architecture, When they built that Church on top, they would have found these pivots for sure because its not low enough below earth to be hidden away. Anything with that space would be hollow enough that an experienced labourer and architect would have dug it up when they do the foundation work. It doesn't even need a Piece of Eden to enter like the Vault in the Vatican, Colosseum or the Grand Temple.

But the Church was designed with the temple in mind. There are buttons all over it, that once activated makes the floor go down like a lift. That is not accidental, the church was designed to give access to the temple. Who built it? That's a good question.


Then there's the question of story aesthetics. Character development literally comes from a fantastic incident with nothing in the real world to connect it to. In AC1, Altair learns a lesson in humility, restraint and curiosity. It comes from him learning that his arrogance led to the death of Malik's brother and the compromise of the brotherhood. Not everyone may have done something that bad but we can relate to that guilt of having let down your family and friends. In AC2, Ezio learns that the world is vast, mysterious and complex that you have to find your own answers. Again that's a coming of age story and theme, we can relate to that. In AC3, well the magical element is very little there in the main plot and its about the best intentions and wishes not producing anything long lasting, about hopes and disappointment. In Black Flag, Edward like Altair realizes he's been a bad friend and bad husband.

What lesson do we learn from ROGUE, when looking for magical objects don't trip over or you might cause an earthquake? No one can relate to that meaningfully, its a contrived scenario where the Assassins are bad guys but not bad guys, so that the player plays a Templar who is right? About the only message it has is that put a black man in charge and he'll level the whole world with two earthquakes and that its upto a band of right-thinking white men (and their token black friend) to stop him.

This I can agree on. Rogue's story has no real meaning or moral, it's only a fan-service to tie AC3 and AC4. The only thing that can be taken from it is that Assassins are not always the good guys, or that they can also be fanatics, but I don't think that is important because we already saw such things in other games.

VestigialLlama4
07-19-2015, 08:58 PM
I appreciate the devs trying to do new things once in a while, but I don't want them veering off into fantasyland too often.

I agree. At least they shouldn't repeat themselves. Like in BLACK FLAG, they did Freedom Cry and their other idea was to do a DLC for Mary Read, and I think they should have done that too, since she's an amazing character in Black Flag and it would have been interesting to play an actual historical figure. I had this pipe dream that for UNITY DLC, we could get playable Napoleon (whose only son died but he had illegitimate children whose DNA could be harvested), at least his early years leading to him becoming Emperor where he was a lot more active and on the field than later.


My other problem with the DLC is the same one Noah Watts mentioned in an interview: they took such great care to portray the natives respectfully and without clichéd tropes in the main game. None of the "Magical Negro/Native", connected-with-nature, painting with the colors of the wind romanticizing that's so common in white depictions of native culture. Then they get to ToKW and it's like a collective release of a major case of blue balls from the production team who suddenly rush to put every trope in the book into the DLC.

That's my objection to it as well. I also don't like how in later Ubisoft transmedia, they keep showing Connor in that outfit. Like the Initiates badge you have the Wolf Skin Connor and then in Abstergo Handbook, the only illustration of Connor is in the Tyranny outfit. Its like Connor is not an Assassin somehow and he's the Native American Beast-Man guy. If they didn't make Washington into a complete psychopath, it would have been bad, so its pretty keenly balanced.


Maybe there is symbolic intent behind it like you suggested, being a collection of clichés from Washington's subconscious, but it just doesn't sit right with me. It feels like they wanted to put a bunch of cliché ideas in the main game but were afraid to piss off the native consultants, so they stuck them all in a DLC and hoped they wouldn't notice.

One thing that points to it coming from Washington and Connor together is that all the Mohawk speak English in the DLC even to each other. They don't do that in the main game once. But its definitely true that the DLC does cater to the Native American fantasy in a big way and as I said, I am grateful they didn't include scalping. I like the DLC on the whole but I would have preferred something closer to what you describe, that is to say a DLC that merely shows what would happen if Washington took the Apple and focused on that. I would have liked stuff like Charles Lee and Hickey are now Assassins and Connor leads them or that Connor has to rescue his father somehow. It could have been a real-AU. The only hint to the main universe is the line at the start of the Second Part where guards talk about how Achilles fought hard before dying.

I like the final part best, we finally see Thomas Jefferson after being absent in AC3 and for me the whole Pyramid sequence with the Boss Fight with Washington was awesome. When I replayed AC3, I did it in such a way that I did the final part of the DLC last, so that way it gives a real conclusion and ends Connor's story on a positive note, without it being an especially happy ending. Connor learns that at least Washington was better than the Templars for rejecting that power so that would be a small amount of validation even if nothing else has changed.

Sorrosyss
04-09-2016, 02:44 PM
Sorry to necro such an old thread, but another Ubisoft survey popped up with some interesting questions. (No disclaimer on this one I might add)

In light of the recent discussions about how the next game may resemble Witcher 3, I found this quite interesting.

http://i.imgur.com/Wajr3x9.png

http://i.imgur.com/GRU0E11.png

MikeFNY
04-09-2016, 02:54 PM
In light of the recent discussions about how the next game may resemble Witcher 3, I found this quite interesting.]
That's actually their way of asking if we would like them to do what was done with RDR and the Undead Nightmare DLC.

And it just shows how desperate they are, ready to throw in the bin the concept of the game to turn it into a zombie-fest.

I actually found "interesting", knowing that the game almost always is 18+, why the survey included an "I'm under 18" option.

Sorrosyss
04-09-2016, 02:57 PM
Zombies? Brr. Dun give them ideas.

"Guys, I got another way to bring back Ezio and Desmond!" :p

joshoolhorst
04-09-2016, 04:00 PM
Zombies? Brr. Dun give them ideas.

"Guys, I got another way to bring back Ezio and Desmond!" :p

Wasn't there a Ankh for bringing back the death LOL Egypt lol secretly Juno's body is hidden in a pyramid and her body is connected to the Temple in AC3 but this kinda doesn't work
Juno will appreciate that though;)

Don't take this post to serious

Black_Widow9
04-10-2016, 12:31 AM
Zombies? Brr. Dun give them ideas.

"Guys, I got another way to bring back Ezio and Desmond!" :p
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/52/11/80/5211801afef3f1ead6ff0e543237a573.jpg

SixKeys
04-10-2016, 03:38 PM
Oh, hell no. I hope they're just throwing random ideas around at this point because it sounds like they want to turn AC into a PoP that they have all the rights to, aka a freerunning game with monsters and magic. The reason AC became its own IP was because Patrice Desilets wanted to get away from all that.

BTW, where did you find this survey, Sorrosyss? Is there more?

Edit: To add a bit, it's unfortunate that they lump "new ideas" together with extreme ones like monsters and magic. New, fresh angles for DLC would be a good thing, but not if it turns the game into fantasy. Why is there no separate option just for "I would like new ideas" but ones that fit the series' lore, like the Lost Archive DLC?

Sorrosyss
04-10-2016, 07:28 PM
I believe it was sent to all season pass purchasers, though I'm probably wrong on that. Perhaps a portion of them.

The majority of it was rating the aspects of the pass that you like/dislike, and what you'd like to see next. Everyone should remember though that this is just a suggestion with regard to the magic stuff, it by no means will result in it actually happening.

I'd personally take a playable Modern Day DLC over monster hunting every time. :p

MikeFNY
04-10-2016, 07:39 PM
Everyone should remember though that this is just a suggestion with regard to the magic stuff, it by no means will result in it actually happening.
True, but if they included this question it means that they are considering it, how strongly, we don't know.

Also it would be interesting to understand what weight this survey has since not everyone received it and some of those who did, like myself, decided to skip it.

I always thought the best way to evaluate the game was the rating system at the end of every mission although in all fairness that doesn't help in respect to new functionality.

Venetica1
04-10-2016, 09:32 PM
Not on your list, but more female chars, w/the badass outfits like Evie had
More storylines in the past, go back pre Jesus
More original clothes for males
Maybe a storyline during Jesus
A roman storyline, perhaps the asassin begins as a gladiator(hey I liked Sparticus)
Ancient greece, egypt, something close to AC1's era
Not sure about magic, seems too Elder Scrolls
Maybe othervraces like dwarves & elves - no magic
Monsters, yes, orcs, hobs, new monsters, perhaps a new take on dragons, like a race that rides them, so a smaller version

SixKeys
04-11-2016, 03:18 AM
I believe it was sent to all season pass purchasers, though I'm probably wrong on that. Perhaps a portion of them.

I have Season Pass and I didn't get it.



I always thought the best way to evaluate the game was the rating system at the end of every mission although in all fairness that doesn't help in respect to new functionality.

Personally I think it's a fairly useless system. I'm sure they can glean some data from it, like how users rate tailing missions and such, but it's too simplistic for proper feedback. Some people may not have a problem with a particular mission design per se, but that mission happens to bug out for them and that colors their view of the entire thing, so they rate it 1 star out of frustration. And you can't elaborate why a certain mission appealed to you - I was hesitant to rate missions in Syndicate because I've always been in favor of more stealth, but in Syndicate some missions I found myself enjoying the most were stuff like the machine gun on a train mission or fight clubs. I rated those 5/5 because I really enjoyed myself, but that doesn't mean I want the whole series to become focused on guns and brawling. Something about those missions worked, but the rating system doesn't allow me to tell the devs anything beyond "has lots of action, 5 stars".

GunnerGalactico
04-11-2016, 06:10 PM
No magic and fantasy elements please! If AC ends up anything like: The Witcher, Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age, then this franchise is dead to me.

ze_topazio
04-11-2016, 06:18 PM
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/t31.0-8/12970951_782912568476321_2237034813423193834_o.png
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12985522_782912591809652_7664607428728090826_n.png ?oh=bc8868f6ce0acdd7c92663537e393053&oe=5778FF99
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpl1/v/t1.0-9/12963858_782912595142985_7343045068565065144_n.png ?oh=8b9e3203b95ac4be1091b8f1698dcae1&oe=57BD815E
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfa1/v/t1.0-9/12998715_782912601809651_1305153413011264422_n.png ?oh=649f86b07100033f53b1271c03f6f231&oe=5774644F
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xaf1/v/t1.0-9/12993520_782912681809643_6991356082074176094_n.png ?oh=8ef40e770f16483df7d14c09ec826777&oe=57BFBF09
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xpf1/v/t1.0-9/12963659_782912695142975_2187719342200422612_n.png ?oh=151722023de978bf2578b821ce29466c&oe=578299C0
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xtf1/v/t1.0-9/12936623_782912701809641_1822092240216673196_n.png ?oh=650434926ea82d311ea969155f3e34ab&oe=57B48B96
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfl1/v/t1.0-9/13000278_782912715142973_3120367633505699604_n.png ?oh=3624c9404208fc2019006d3b0a0e9345&oe=57BA8FB5
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/12963750_782912808476297_1148672059027521920_n.png ?oh=cf833e70d5592825948315cd73f873b6&oe=577D3A4C
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xlf1/v/t1.0-9/13007217_782912815142963_64038832824933817_n.png?o h=15682d5b3fd2dbb55bd3d808bfef758b&oe=57BA8EDE
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xap1/v/t1.0-9/13006660_782912825142962_8850414343390470241_n.png ?oh=d287bea99da095242a2d78b7ca68f78d&oe=57BDFB12
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xfp1/v/t1.0-9/944881_782912878476290_6473233332649001755_n.png?o h=3928cf9c31a766f5f02f9fcc339790f5&oe=5774F56E
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/hphotos-xat1/v/t1.0-9/12990842_782912888476289_207114835851076107_n.png? oh=438dc992344a867adaf22bb6f4625ab5&oe=57BAA92D
https://scontent.flis2-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/13007222_782912891809622_7289684524234099819_n.png ?oh=f650856f9434dacdbe3a1bfda56b9f5e&oe=57738A16

https://www.facebook.com/AccessTheAnimus/?fref=ts

RVSage
04-11-2016, 07:02 PM
I would not like any DLC with focus on monsters and magic , If it does not fir the era, Ancient Egypt? It may fit.

I really loved Jack the Ripper DLC, I would like more DLCs, like that. Not necessarily dark, but pick up a story that reflects the setting. I really hated TOKW

SixKeys
04-11-2016, 11:00 PM
I would not like any DLC with focus on monsters and magic , If it does not fir the era, Ancient Egypt? It may fit.

I really loved Jack the Ripper DLC, I would like more DLCs, like that. Not necessarily dark, but pick up a story that reflects the setting. I really hated TOKW

Why would monsters and magic fit Egypt any better than some other country?

RVSage
04-12-2016, 03:21 AM
Why would monsters and magic fit Egypt any better than some other country?

I did say 'May' fit, ancient egyptian mythology, has a lot of magical references (perhaps can be explained by a piece of eden). Thus magic when used well might work. Where there is magic, inserting monsters is more than feasible

However it may not be gloried, like in Hollywood movies.

It is feasible because of the mythology , but needs better than typical Hollywood movie execution

Venetica1
04-13-2016, 03:56 PM
Ok, I just literally woke up from an odd dream, what if we assassins/templars had a new enemy, something they'd have to work together to kill, a genetically altered human, after Eden pieces. Some group out to destroy everyone, vicious, mericiless, we find out later their reason for wanting the pieces, don't go pyscho on me, a humanlike terminator if you will, they just want humanity dead, so assassins & templars have to work together, go waay back in the past to find out this factions start and reasoning for wanting to pretty much destroy everything?

Venetica1
04-14-2016, 12:01 AM
No magic and fantasy elements please! If AC ends up anything like: The Witcher, Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age, then this franchise is dead to me.


I totallly agree, I am SICK of dragon age, they killed 3, I'm sure most of us have played skyrim, no bleeding magic, no varric, no qunari, no place in asassins creed for magic, we've a myriad of games chock full of magic, even sci fi, no halo rips pleaseno pirates even,black flag was fun, lets keep AC, AC
I like train robberies, cargo hijacking, but lets stop there, its not saints row
I love being an assassin, I LOVE the new skill/combat tree in Syndicate

But let's chill, eh?

LoyalACFan
04-14-2016, 07:34 AM
Oh, hell no. I hope they're just throwing random ideas around at this point because it sounds like they want to turn AC into a PoP that they have all the rights to, aka a freerunning game with monsters and magic. The reason AC became its own IP was because Patrice Desilets wanted to get away from all that.

Agree, but I think when they're mentioning The Witcher as an inspiration they're talking more about the general open-world structure and the incentivization of exploration (wow, that was wordy). Basically, trying to encourage players to goof around in the world and actually explore the map instead of just running from waypoint to waypoint. Which, I would argue that TW3 isn't completely exempt from this either (the notice boards basically do the same thing as viewpoints in AC; they dot the map area with quests and collectibles. It just that TW3 does a better job of covering it up with lore and flavor text) but it would be a step in the right direction at least. Plus random events/quests that pop up only if you find them in the world would be cool.

IMO a lot of the problem with AC's side content is just in the presentation. Truthfully, TW3 has just as many pointless map markers as Unity, albeit more spread out over a larger area (come on, did anyone actually bother diving for all those smuggler caches?) but there's no expectation for you to go to every one of them and snag a collectible. There's no special gear that forces you to collect every runestone to unlock. There's no trophy for clearing every question mark off the map. It's all just filler content that's meant to be stumbled upon while playing to add a little spice to free-roaming. Whereas in AC it's almost like the Animus fragments and whatnot are actually intended to be some kind of end-game content to keep people playing for a few extra hours. It's lame.

Assassin_M
04-15-2016, 04:15 AM
> other words starting with M

Me.

Also, I wouldnt want it. Tyranny was fine precisely because of its context. If we start passing off dragons and magic as TWCB stuff then this series is finished.

SixKeys
04-15-2016, 10:02 PM
> other words starting with M

Me.

I was starting to wonder if the summoning ritual had failed.

Sorrosyss
04-16-2016, 01:53 AM
I was starting to wonder if the summoning ritual had failed.

Excellent, we have snared the great one himself.

Thread is over. ;)

Assassin_M
04-17-2016, 04:29 AM
Excellent, we have snared the great one himself.

Thread is over. ;)
The mods have informed me that the forums were starting to crumble from my being too awesome, so I thought I should disappear for a bit.


I was starting to wonder if the summoning ritual had failed.
The old guard is strong with you, SixKeys. Lead the youngins in my place. But yes, I'm almost disappointed that no one mentioned me before I showed up here. I mean, come on...

ze_topazio
04-17-2016, 12:33 PM
I did thought about you, but I also thought that was too obvious to mention.


Anyway, the survey is about dlc, so magic and stuff would be fine with me.

Assassin_M
04-17-2016, 04:33 PM
I did thought about you, but I also thought that was too obvious to mention.
Meh. Excuses.



Anyway, the survey is about dlc, so magic and stuff would be fine with me.
The thing with Ubisoft is, though, that their stories and dialogue focus more on stuff happening and action than characterization and narrative depth. Look at ToKW. Connor barely had any character development. Yeah, we know what his arc was about in that DLC but we BARELY see any of the actual transformation. In The Redemption, instead of bringing back Lee, Hickey, Church and Pitcairn to be the rebels against GW, we were given the bland and monotone Jefferson. Why? Because the writers just wanted to shove in a new historical character for no reason.

Compare ToKW to Hearts of Stone. They're of comparable length but HoS barely wastes a single solitary second without adding more and more depth to the conflict, to the antagonist, to Olgierd, his life, his family, everything. By the end of HoS, I cared about what happened to Olgierd. I can't say the same of any character in ToKW. I imagine if HoS was an AC DLC, it'd be about finding the secret lamp that gives its wielder the power of an ox, or some non sense like that.

Already, AC has the convoluted magic trope. Why add more? Even without it, AC stories suffer.

Mr.Black24
04-18-2016, 01:17 AM
The thing with Ubisoft is, though, that their stories and dialogue focus more on stuff happening and action than characterization and narrative depth. Look at ToKW. Connor barely had any character development. Yeah, we know what his arc was about in that DLC but we BARELY see any of the actual transformation. In The Redemption, instead of bringing back Lee, Hickey, Church and Pitcairn to be the rebels against GW, we were given the bland and monotone Jefferson. Why? Because the writers just wanted to shove in a new historical character for no reason.


I'll never understand why some people think that ToKW is an acceptable closing for Connor, when it really has neither payoff nor closure of his life at all. In fact most of what has happened DIDN'T REALLY HAPPEN. Everything that he saw was spanned in the matter of minutes. Thats it. Real world wise, he saw a terrible vision and threw the Apple into the ocean. But thats it, its not even a sequence. Was it entertaining? Hell yeah, I ain't arguing with that. But the fact that it meant that it had to suffer from little to no story progression of the protagonist at all hurts Connor's story overall.

Compare that to Dead Kings or Jack the Ripper, where at least the events not only did happen, but there was also more expanded lore on their lives and development of the protagonists.

Assassin_M
04-18-2016, 01:43 AM
Compare that to Dead Kings or Jack the Ripper, where at least the events not only did happen, but there was also more expanded lore on their lives and development of the protagonists.

Bleeeeeehhh both were all over the place. Dead Kings had Arno wanting to leave everything behind and go to Egypt only to be persuaded by an idealistic kid to stay and rejoin the Assassins. There's a brief bit about hallucinations and seeing Elise but it went no where. There's Margot and the orphanage, which also went no where. All in all, it was, yet again, about hippty hoppty, find the McGuffen. There wasn't even any interaction between Arno and Napoleon (Even though they were best buds in the main game).

Jack the Ripper was very....confused, I guess, for lack of a better term. The writers so so so badly were walking on egg shells, it felt very safe. Evie is always like "ohh you monster, you DAMN MONSTER!!!". But....why? Because he mutilated the women? Did you see some of the killing animations with the cane, knife and hidden blades? If this was real life, you'd have guts spilling on the floor, kidneys flying, heads coming off. But the writers wanted so badly to be "politically correct", I guess. Every 5 seconds we had to be reminded that saucy Jackie was an evil dude. It's even worse because the women were made out to be Assassins (And now the Assassins wear rings? wut?) so it's simply a case of some soldiers falling in battle, why make such a fuss about it? Rest in peace and move on. You don't have to scream and whine every 2 seconds about how "monstrous" Jack is.

There's also, apparently, the theme that Evie would not succumb to being a monster. Where did that come from? Oh, I get it. Evie is now suddenly a pacifist who uses her cuffs to "take people out". No hidden blades now for good ol' Evie. Nu uh. What is this? When did this happen? We didn't get to explore this odd transition AT ALL. It's made even worse when you read the novel. The Brits are portrayed as the ones who are civilized whilst the Indians are such savage brutes that they'd resort to condemning their own children to death. The British man coming to the rescue of the poor Indian lad. The British man suddenly abhores death and murder. Nice.

SixKeys
04-18-2016, 02:32 AM
Jack the Ripper was very....confused, I guess, for lack of a better term. The writers so so so badly were walking on egg shells, it felt very safe. Evie is always like "ohh you monster, you DAMN MONSTER!!!". But....why? Because he mutilated the women? Did you see some of the killing animations with the cane, knife and hidden blades? If this was real life, you'd have guts spilling on the floor, kidneys flying, heads coming off. But the writers wanted so badly to be "politically correct", I guess. Every 5 seconds we had to be reminded that saucy Jackie was an evil dude. It's even worse because the women were made out to be Assassins (And now the Assassins wear rings? wut?) so it's simply a case of some soldiers falling in battle, why make such a fuss about it? Rest in peace and move on. You don't have to scream and whine every 2 seconds about how "monstrous" Jack is.

There's also, apparently, the theme that Evie would not succumb to being a monster. Where did that come from? Oh, I get it. Evie is now suddenly a pacifist who uses her cuffs to "take people out". No hidden blades now for good ol' Evie. Nu uh. What is this? When did this happen? We didn't get to explore this odd transition AT ALL. It's made even worse when you read the novel. The Brits are portrayed as the ones who are civilized whilst the Indians are such savage brutes that they'd resort to condemning their own children to death. The British man coming to the rescue of the poor Indian lad. The British man suddenly abhores death and murder. Nice.

Yeah, that was absolutely ridiculous. I wouldn't describe it as being politically correct, it was more a case of ham-fisted writing where they wanted to make a point about how those assassins are totally not at aaalll like brutal serial killers when, if you look closely at it, they totally are. But that would mean making their heroes look bad and that would be bad for the brand. Trying to shove Jack the Ripper into the AC lore was a bad idea from the start.

ETA: When I say "bad idea from the start", I don't mean it would have been impossible to make it good and interesting, but it required a much more delicate and nuanced touch than what they did. None of this "roar to scare your enemies!" silliness. They turned a real life mentally disturbed murderer into a farcical B movie monster and that was tasteless.

VestigialLlama4
04-18-2016, 01:11 PM
The thing with Ubisoft is, though, that their stories and dialogue focus more on stuff happening and action than characterization and narrative depth. Look at ToKW. Connor barely had any character development. Yeah, we know what his arc was about in that DLC but we BARELY see any of the actual transformation. In The Redemption, instead of bringing back Lee, Hickey, Church and Pitcairn to be the rebels against GW, we were given the bland and monotone Jefferson. Why? Because the writers just wanted to shove in a new historical character for no reason.

I think what you define as ubisoft's focus more on "stuff happening and action" is accurate in describing their stories in general. In the case of Tyranny of King Washington however, I'd argue that there's something deeper going in the relationship between Connor and Washington. Ultimately it's about that. I always did like the final Pyramid conversation just before the fight...There's an attempt at characterization that Connor could become a darker figure and a conduit for the Apple of Eden, but it doesn't really work because they don't go too far.


Already, AC has the convoluted magic trope. Why add more? Even without it, AC stories suffer.

Exactly. I mean the thing about AC3 was that the main game's historical section was the most character driven until that point, it was about Connor's relationships with Achilles, Haytham, his targets, his tribe, the Homestead and the Patriots. There was no real magical object the Templars and Assassins were fighting for in the main plot. Darby and Corey May say they were dialing down the First Civ tech and Tyranny of King Washington was intended by the developers to hold back their crazy gimmicks for DLC rather than put in a main game. Black Flag followed on with that, where the mcGuffin is a dude and not an object, and the blood vials were intended for that. Then later games it's back to business as usual.

The problem with AC is that it tried to change in between with AC3 and Black Flag, but then a new team came in and undid all their work with earthquake machines and Shrouds and dumber plots.


It's made even worse when you read the novel. The Brits are portrayed as the ones who are civilized whilst the Indians are such savage brutes that they'd resort to condemning their own children to death. The British man coming to the rescue of the poor Indian lad. The British man suddenly abhores death and murder. Nice.

You know I wanted to comment on that, but as the Forum's Reigning SJW, I didn't want to push my luck, but I am glad you brought it up.

I think it's simply because Ubisoft Montreal is Canadian, they may speak French but their heart is that of the British Empire so that colours their view of history I think.

Assassin_M
04-18-2016, 07:05 PM
In the case of Tyranny of King Washington however, I'd argue that there's something deeper going in the relationship between Connor and Washington. Ultimately it's about that. I always did like the final Pyramid conversation just before the fight...There's an attempt at characterization that Connor could become a darker figure and a conduit for the Apple of Eden, but it doesn't really work because they don't go too far.
I definitely agree with this. They wanted to further add depth to the relationship between Connor and GW and it was the only remotely good thing about the DLC. It explored Connor's struggle with his siding with the patriots, their betrayal and his former alliance with GW. As you said, though, everything takes a backseat to the magic.


Exactly. I mean the thing about AC3 was that the main game's historical section was the most character driven until that point, it was about Connor's relationships with Achilles, Haytham, his targets, his tribe, the Homestead and the Patriots. There was no real magical object the Templars and Assassins were fighting for in the main plot. Darby and Corey May say they were dialing down the First Civ tech and Tyranny of King Washington was intended by the developers to hold back their crazy gimmicks for DLC rather than put in a main game. Black Flag followed on with that, where the mcGuffin is a dude and not an object, and the blood vials were intended for that. Then later games it's back to business as usual.
It's also prevalent in AC II where you have SO many characters and yet nothing of narrative value is done with them. All the characters are given very stagnant qualities and they're used as static props. If AC II was a big haunted mansion, all the characters would be the furniture instead of the various colorful and deep spirits that inhabit the place. That's what every AC is like, other than AC I, AC III, AC IV and to an extent ACR. Everything is just so static and in place.


You know I wanted to comment on that, but as the Forum's Reigning SJW, I didn't want to push my luck, but I am glad you brought it up.

I think it's simply because Ubisoft Montreal is Canadian, they may speak French but their heart is that of the British Empire so that colours their view of history I think.
Eh, the forums aren't as active as before so you'll get less slack. I guess this history trumps their rivalry with Britain....or they're just really confused. Where's Bowden from?

VestigialLlama4
04-19-2016, 07:53 AM
Eh, the forums aren't as active as before so you'll get less slack. I guess this history trumps their rivalry with Britain....or they're just really confused. Where's Bowden from?

Oliver Bowden is the pen name of Anton Gill (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anton_Gill) who is English.

French Canadians are a confused bunch. A lot of them are based on traditions of New France which was founded by the French Kingdom. The current France is the French Republic and has changed and diverged greatly from the cultural origins of the Canadians, whose ancestors saw themselves as loyal to the French King deposed by the Jacobins. It's the usual colonies-metropole equation only in the case of the French, the colonies are loyal to the older France and older French identity while the mother country has moved on. I generalize but that's the crux of the baggage French Canadians have with France.

The English and French Kingdoms hated each other right until the French people killed their king. Then the English and other people cried crocodile tears for the monarchy since nobody wanted democracy at home at the time. Or further movements and rights for that matter. So that explains Unity...


It's also prevalent in AC II where you have SO many characters and yet nothing of narrative value is done with them. All the characters are given very stagnant qualities and they're used as static props. If AC II was a big haunted mansion, all the characters would be the furniture instead of the various colorful and deep spirits that inhabit the place. That's what every AC is like, other than AC I, AC III, AC IV and to an extent ACR. Everything is just so static and in place.

In the case of AC2, I did feel some moments of characterization here and there but yeah it's mostly a gallery of caricatures. Everyone notes that it's like a comic book/superhero/adventure. So Ezio is James Bond/Bruce Wayne...and Leonardo is his Q/Lucius Fox and so on. Unity and Syndicate is also in that style of caricatures, where you have Hero's Journey latched on to Arno's quest. Syndicate is deliberately a pastische of Victorian period stories and all the characters are caricatures and cliches, although its villains are better written than Unity's.

To be honest the 17th Century games: AC3/Black Flag was the series' real high point for me in terms of writing. After that, i think Ubisoft decided they wanted to downsize and streamline and at the quest of the whole "It's about the gameplay, stupid" mania that fans and critics have paid them, they have sacrificed writing and coherence, it's more Market-Driven and Poll-Generated. And ironically that failed.

Markaccus
04-19-2016, 01:44 PM
Ubi games usually have a modicum of flipped out, druggy, spirity nonsense within the story. I think AC contains just the right amount, and needs no more. Since we have the halucinogenic dart, any extra "magic" stuff might make taking a gang hq a bit on the easy side.

Mr.Black24
04-19-2016, 06:55 PM
Bleeeeeehhh both were all over the place. Dead Kings had Arno wanting to leave everything behind and go to Egypt only to be persuaded by an idealistic kid to stay and rejoin the Assassins. There's a brief bit about hallucinations and seeing Elise but it went no where. There's Margot and the orphanage, which also went no where. All in all, it was, yet again, about hippty hoppty, find the McGuffen. There wasn't even any interaction between Arno and Napoleon (Even though they were best buds in the main game).

Unity's writing was just a complete mess, and I liked Dead Kings being that at least, to me, its more coherent then the entire main game itself. That Elise bit really got me mad when it was just over the fence like nothing, and even madder when in Loomer's interview, it was revealed that they had a more fleshed out version for it, but you know what? No time cuz annualization and deadlines! They teased out that they might want to revisit Arno and Leon, but its very slim though and I do hope so for the sake of cleaning up this mess.

The Arno/Napoleon relationship really pisses me off. Like did Arno not hear this guy give a brutal "I'm going to be the great Emperor of France" speech that Napoleon gave which had a huge negative vib, but hey have Arno protect him and do favors for him years later!


Jack the Ripper was very....confused, I guess, for lack of a better term. The writers so so so badly were walking on egg shells, it felt very safe. Evie is always like "ohh you monster, you DAMN MONSTER!!!". But....why? Because he mutilated the women? Did you see some of the killing animations with the cane, knife and hidden blades? If this was real life, you'd have guts spilling on the floor, kidneys flying, heads coming off. But the writers wanted so badly to be "politically correct", I guess. Every 5 seconds we had to be reminded that saucy Jackie was an evil dude. It's even worse because the women were made out to be Assassins (And now the Assassins wear rings? wut?) so it's simply a case of some soldiers falling in battle, why make such a fuss about it? Rest in peace and move on. You don't have to scream and whine every 2 seconds about how "monstrous" Jack is. As much as I hate saying this, but its the whole damm trope of "Rule of Cool". Gotta have brutal executions to wow the consumers.

While I'll never understand the whole Evie's "Not wanting to be a monster" part, I thought it was pretty straight forward that what he is a monster for corrupting the Creed, using the Rooks to install fear and violence into the populace, and his mutilations of his victims. Plus you are brushing off how that Assassin had always cared for each other, hence the meaning of Brotherhood, although their history has its Assassin vs Assassin event. Not to mention like soldiers in real life, they feel loss for their fellow.



There's also, apparently, the theme that Evie would not succumb to being a monster. Where did that come from? Oh, I get it. Evie is now suddenly a pacifist who uses her cuffs to "take people out". No hidden blades now for good ol' Evie. Nu uh. What is this? When did this happen? We didn't get to explore this odd transition AT ALL. It's made even worse when you read the novel. The Brits are portrayed as the ones who are civilized whilst the Indians are such savage brutes that they'd resort to condemning their own children to death. The British man coming to the rescue of the poor Indian lad. The British man suddenly abhores death and murder. Nice. Novel? Underworld right?




ETA: When I say "bad idea from the start", I don't mean it would have been impossible to make it good and interesting, but it required a much more delicate and nuanced touch than what they did. None of this "roar to scare your enemies!" silliness. They turned a real life mentally disturbed murderer into a farcical B movie monster and that was tasteless.
This reminds me I wanted to discuss this with all of you, a revelation with this DLC.

So do you remember that sequence when Jack had to go back to that prison island he'd set up and silence everyone there? When you said B movie monster, this was it. This entire sequence, I felt like what would happen if Jason Voorhees was agile, had gadgets, and Assassin training. And during the game, I slaughtered pretty much everyone there. But it made me realize that this type of gameplay fits HIM. But it doesn't fit other Assassins of past games. I guess it helped me realize that even though it looks cool, Assassins ain't no one man armies.

CUE "WELL DUHHHH, FINALLY REALIZE THAT NOW???"

Going back on topic really quick, if there are holes and weak structure in regular DLC, a fantasy one will jut be a wreak as well.

ze_topazio
04-19-2016, 11:30 PM
Meh. Excuses.

https://media.giphy.com/media/3oTFe83dTPxao/giphy.gif




The thing with Ubisoft is, though, that their stories and dialogue focus more on stuff happening and action than characterization and narrative depth. Look at ToKW. Connor barely had any character development. Yeah, we know what his arc was about in that DLC but we BARELY see any of the actual transformation. In The Redemption, instead of bringing back Lee, Hickey, Church and Pitcairn to be the rebels against GW, we were given the bland and monotone Jefferson. Why? Because the writers just wanted to shove in a new historical character for no reason.

Compare ToKW to Hearts of Stone. They're of comparable length but HoS barely wastes a single solitary second without adding more and more depth to the conflict, to the antagonist, to Olgierd, his life, his family, everything. By the end of HoS, I cared about what happened to Olgierd. I can't say the same of any character in ToKW. I imagine if HoS was an AC DLC, it'd be about finding the secret lamp that gives its wielder the power of an ox, or some non sense like that.

Already, AC has the convoluted magic trope. Why add more? Even without it, AC stories suffer.

And I agree with you my friend, but I was thinking something like RDR Undead Nightmare or Infamous Festival of Blood, a non canon story where the devs could go wild with their imagination.

roostersrule2
04-21-2016, 03:35 AM
The Red Willow Tree stuff was a drug, basically.

Connor was basically getting different "highs" different "powers" when he drank the stuff.

Everything you see in the animus is the animus' rendition of what Connor felt.

That's all it was.Connor was a tweaker, is what you mean to say.

pacmanate
04-21-2016, 12:58 PM
Connor was a tweaker, is what you mean to say.

OMG uR BACK