PDA

View Full Version : Heinkel rear end flame throwers . .



choxaway
06-01-2004, 10:29 AM
Don't know how many of you saw the UK Channel 5 programme about digging up the remains of the Hurricane whose pilot flew into the Heinkel and snapped off its rear end, having run out of ammo, but despite the interviewers' best efforts to make it all sound exciting and gung-ho, the surviving 88 yr old Hurri pilot was obviously uncomfortable at the attention he was receiving. He thought it no big deal and seemed content to leave it at that.
The dig in Germany (taking place live at the same time) locating the Mk14 Spit was equally unenthralling, but I thought one of the funniest moments was when the interviewer asked the surviving Aussie pilot which was his favourite moment as a pilot in the war. "When it ended", came the sardonic reply ...

However one gem that was total news to me was the business of the Hurricane attacking the Heinkel from behind and the pilot thought oil was coming from the aircraft's engine as it was splashing onto his windscreen. Turns out the Heinkel was fitted with a flame thrower in the tail gunner's position but the oil failed to ignite. I certainly didn't know they fitted such devices - presumably they were a failed experiment (fortunately for the Hurri pilot), but anyone else hear about these flame throwers?


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/choxaway/IL2FB/6c05075b.gif

choxaway
06-01-2004, 10:29 AM
Don't know how many of you saw the UK Channel 5 programme about digging up the remains of the Hurricane whose pilot flew into the Heinkel and snapped off its rear end, having run out of ammo, but despite the interviewers' best efforts to make it all sound exciting and gung-ho, the surviving 88 yr old Hurri pilot was obviously uncomfortable at the attention he was receiving. He thought it no big deal and seemed content to leave it at that.
The dig in Germany (taking place live at the same time) locating the Mk14 Spit was equally unenthralling, but I thought one of the funniest moments was when the interviewer asked the surviving Aussie pilot which was his favourite moment as a pilot in the war. "When it ended", came the sardonic reply ...

However one gem that was total news to me was the business of the Hurricane attacking the Heinkel from behind and the pilot thought oil was coming from the aircraft's engine as it was splashing onto his windscreen. Turns out the Heinkel was fitted with a flame thrower in the tail gunner's position but the oil failed to ignite. I certainly didn't know they fitted such devices - presumably they were a failed experiment (fortunately for the Hurri pilot), but anyone else hear about these flame throwers?


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/choxaway/IL2FB/6c05075b.gif

1.JaVA_Razer
06-01-2004, 10:39 AM
PLEASE NOOOOOOOO

I would like them but rendering a flamethrower in on line play will kill the game.

play RTCW and use the flamethrower but put fraps on,your FPS willd rop,garanteed
along with this come new DM models(fire damage to wings,guns,ammo rounds going of because of heat....)
It would be cool for Bob(when we all have Ubersystems of Mach10 with the ATI XXXXX5000 but for now... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
leave it :-)

------------------------------
Teamplay on a dogfightserver
It sounds like a classic game of air-quake!

?http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif
Quote from extreme One


------------------------------
http://www.entity-project.tk
------------------------------
AMD 2500+ @3200+
Asus A7n8X-X
512MB DDR 3200 Apacer
Hercules 9200(soon to have a X800 pro)
2Coolermaster fans
Thermalright SP 97 CPU cooler
Sunbeam rheobus

Taylortony
06-01-2004, 10:44 AM
yes you are correct they were scrapped soon afterwards, I read an article about a German bomber using it in anger recently.... apparantly it was ineffective, didn't have the reach and far from disuading the attacking aircraft from doing a stern attack it encouraged them as they believed unbeknowingly that the fire emminating from the tail of the bomber was the result of their weapons fire

georgeo76
06-01-2004, 11:44 AM
Yea, I've heard of all kind of odd things being used on WWII bombers to discourage rear attacks. IIRC, some bombers (can't remember if it was Brit or Du) dragged cans and other small metal objects on the end of long ropes; similar to cars leaving weddings The purpose of the decoration was to entangle the props of attacking fighters.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> play RTCW and use the flamethrower but put fraps on,your FPS willd rop,garanteed
along with this come new DM models(fire damage to wings,guns,ammo rounds going of because of heat....)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This DM feature should already be in the game. I know that fires cause cumulative damage, but there is no visual fire damage, and more importantly, the deterioration of the AC happens slowly and predictably. La 5s and Hurris, for example, should be especially vulnerable to fire, but even aluminum superstructure will deform and fail under intense heat. Not to mention all the interior components that are heat sensitive, flammable, or both.

Danschnell
06-01-2004, 12:04 PM
Yeah.
I saw a bit of that program.
It was sad really.
There were all these very frail old men, obviously who couldn't give a damn about what was going on but who were gritting their teeth and bearing it nonetheless. Or, worse still, the old people didn't really even know what was going on and were looking a bit bewildered.
I would be upset if was put under the spotlight to recall things long ago best forgotten. The reporters were so insensitive, making a practical carnival and hyped up show around these men who probably needed to be left alone. The reporters were bumbling into things they really knew nothing about. Fancy asking a veteran what his 'favourite' moment was of a war! How ill thought out that was!

It reminds me of when I was younger, I was at an air show and I was talking to a pilot about the flight properties of the Typhoon compared to the Tempest. I kept (unthinkingly) pestering him to tell me about the combat, bot the FMs. I wanted to know what damage he had been able to do with the 4 Hispanos. When I asked about it the guy just walked off and left me. It was only afterwards that I realised what I had done, and to this day I still feel a pang of guilt just talking about it.
Who knows what horrors he committed in the name of war? It was stupid of me to ask.
I can still remember my Grandfather staring at a photo of his war buddies, shaking his head and saying... 'he was killed you know. Well so was he. What do you know my best mate was too. All dead. All gone.'

Its great to talk about war... so long as we confine it to the world of computer sims!

Lasham_1
06-01-2004, 12:21 PM
Yes I saw the programme too. It was a real circus for TV and I felt sorry for the Octogenarians, especially the Aussie Spitfire pilot who had endured the long flight over to Germany with his grandaughter. I agree with Danschnell that the presenters were totally insensitive, lacking in knowledge and the one in Germany introduced the pilot's grandaughter as his daughter.

By the way the German aircraft was not a Heinkel but a Dornier 17 with the very slim, easy-to-slice rear fuselage.

I did enjoy some of the old footage though, and now would love to have a Spit IV in FB. Sounded like a fantastic machine.

DuxCorvan
06-01-2004, 02:39 PM
We have those flamethrowers in the game yet. Oleg calls them 'muzzle flashes'. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



About the horrors of war I'll tell you an anecdote from my grandfather -who was an officer commanding a platoon of Ceuta Regulars (Elite native force in Morocco, formed by native moors under the command of Spanish officers) during Spanish Civil War and beyond.

This happened during the Morocco war in the 50s. A young sergeant, my grandpa's friend, went on patrol with a group of soldiers and was ambushed by Rif insurgents and bandits. After the survivors came back with the news, my grandfather went out to search and rescue him, but he only found his beheaded body, who had to be left there after a fast burial.

Two days later, they captured the men that had killed him. One of them still held his head in a bag -he wanted to extract his golden teeth, but had not found time nor tools, so he cut his head off to try later.

Wishing to give the sergeant's family something to bury in Spain, my grandpa wandered for a week with one of his best friends' rotting head in his bagpack -no fridges there- until he could get back to base and manage to repatriate the body -in fact, a coffin with just a horrible head and some clothes inside.

Nothing to be talked in a dinner. I remember my grandfather saying that in the worst times of a war, everybody loses their lives, only that some still eat, talk and walk afterwards, but with their lives partly lost anyway. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Lasham_1
06-01-2004, 02:52 PM
Just to correct my typo from the above post, I meant Spit Mk XIV !

BerkshireHunt
06-01-2004, 03:32 PM
That programme supplied the answer to this thread:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=726106743&r=888109743#888109743

in which Dahdah asked what the device shown on his drawing of a Do17 was. I have more books, pamphlets and German publications relating to the Dornier bombers than I care to admit to- but I have never seen a reference to a flamethrower in any of them. I'm still not convinced. The fuel dump valve was normally located at the rear of Do17Zs and it is just possible that a burner could have been added to fend off an attacking fighter but it would surely have been horrendously risky to deliberately ignite the fuel stream. The Hurricane pilot said the device gave off oil- oil will burn but it's heavy and doesn't vaporise readily. I can't imagine an oil fired device being suitable for the tail of a bomber- so it may just have been engine oil from the bomber which hit his windscreen.
I can see more practical value in a smoke dispenser being fitted at the tail- you can't be hit if you can't be seen and fuel ejected with a colourant could have been quite effective- and much safer than a flamethrower. In fact, I do have a reference which mentions smoke dispensers being fitted to Do17s- but not flamethrowers.

If anyone can shed more light I'd be grateful.

Taylortony
06-01-2004, 03:55 PM
I have an article in a flypast or aircraft monthly about it somewhere and it was the pilot relating to its effects

choxaway
06-01-2004, 04:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lasham_1:
By the way the German aircraft was not a Heinkel but a Dornier 17 with the very slim, easy-to-slice rear fuselage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My brain's obviously gone into sleep mode - can't think why I thought it was a Heinkel - probably my age . . .


http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v30/choxaway/IL2FB/6c05075b.gif

oisink
06-01-2004, 05:35 PM
I read somewhere about a crashed heinkel being found with some kind of slide in its tail for releasing grenades at pursuing fighters

Ois√¬*n

"N√¬*l sa saol ach gaoth is toit"

heywooood
06-01-2004, 06:56 PM
OK - this is all metaphors, right...?

Flames shooting out he back of your 'Heinkel'

A 'grenade chute' out the back of your 'Heinkel'..

This 'hole' thing is a travesty and a sham and a mockery!!! its a travishamockery! berklflickle! ...sorry Damn commercials.

ElektroFredrik
06-02-2004, 12:31 AM
I think you should look at this:
http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/waffen2.htm
At the very bottom of the page it sais something
about "flammenwerfer" tested on a He-111 and Ju-88
Unfortunately in German...
Could someone translate?

http://www.scarysquirrel.org/ksk/tuftycard3.jpg
"What I study is sex and squirrels" - Jane Waterman, Ph.D.
Flying online as Furvert_Elektro

Willthisnamedo
06-02-2004, 12:54 AM
Hah! That German reference is very interesting:

What it's actually saying is that the idea was to blind the pursueing pilot's vision with the cloud of oily smoke. Makes sense: look at the great stream of it in the second picture... Probably because they realised that this has a longer 'effective range' than the hot bit - I suspect you'd have to be damned close to actually damage through the heat effect...

73GIAP_Milan
06-02-2004, 01:34 AM
Well..i've never heard of flamethrowers being built in the rear of German bombers...but..

As Transam_15 and i flew a Coop mission toghether a few weeks ago, with IL2 Sturmovik Original we BOTH got shot to **** by a heinkel He111 H2 (1941 version) which had a FIXED Mg15 IN THE TAILCONE http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

I've heard stories about the Germans mounting these guns, but NEVER noticed that they were modeled in IL2 !! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif It was a really nasty surprise and we both were wondering why we got shot down while we had killed both the upper and lower gunners....

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif Awesome to find related stuff on this here on the forums, and to find such detail back in the game...

Salute and Regards,

73GvIAP_Milan
Formerly known as: Der_Tote_Baron
______________________________
73GvIAP Squadron Leader for IL2 Sturmovik

VVS-Manuc
06-02-2004, 02:37 AM
flamethrower on a He 111

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/flames.jpg

an on a Ju 88

http://www.luftarchiv.info/bordgerate/flames1.jpg

Jumoschwanz
06-02-2004, 08:48 AM
I would like to see mk108 cannons in every gunner position on the german planes. Most of them really had these................http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


Jumoschwanz

GerritJ9
06-02-2004, 01:24 PM
William Green's "War Planes of the Second World War: Bombers and Reconnaissance Aircraft, Volume nine" has a nice photo on page 119 of the 7.9mm MG17 installed in the tail of an He 111 H-6. The text indicates that only some aircraft were equipped with this weapon.