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RAAF_Furball
07-21-2004, 07:25 PM
(prompted by another post ........)

By the end of WW2, "RAAF had served in every theatre of operation ..... RAAF was the fourth largest air force in the world."

Read at least the last paragraph of this shot ==> RAAF Museum, Point Cook (http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/Furball/RAAF_Museum/?action=view&current=Theatres_of_War.jpg)

_RAAF_Furball, CO

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RAAF_Furball
07-21-2004, 07:25 PM
(prompted by another post ........)

By the end of WW2, "RAAF had served in every theatre of operation ..... RAAF was the fourth largest air force in the world."

Read at least the last paragraph of this shot ==> RAAF Museum, Point Cook (http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/Furball/RAAF_Museum/?action=view&current=Theatres_of_War.jpg)

_RAAF_Furball, CO

click below for _RAAF_ website

http://members.optusnet.com.au/raafgames/crest.jpg (http://www.raafsquad.com)

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huggy87
07-21-2004, 07:31 PM
Not to take anything away from their contribution, but I have a tough time believing they were the fourth largest air force. How could they have been bigger than Japan or Germany. Maybe they meant the fourth biggest allied force which I could definitely believe.

RAAF_Furball
07-21-2004, 07:49 PM
OK - if you don't believe the RAAF Museum .......

do you believe Google?

http://www.google.com.au/search?num=50&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&safe=off&q=RAAF+was+the+fourth+largest+air+force+in+the+wor ld&meta=


or do you believe a Member of Aussie Parliament?

http://minister.dva.gov.au/speeches/1997/mar97/qldra1.htm


or maybe some bloke who wrote a book ? :P

http://www.allen-unwin.com.au/exports/product.asp?ISBN=1865081302


hhhhhhmmmmmm - one of the Google links says: "fourth largest in the Western world."

http://www.abc.net.au/gnt/future/Transcripts/s1117282.htm

Buggered if I know - can we agree on VERY SIGNIFICANT in every theatre? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

_RAAF_Furball, CO

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SkyChimp
07-21-2004, 07:57 PM
I believe it!

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Capt._Tenneal
07-21-2004, 08:14 PM
You don't need to convince me mate ! I know they have a significant contribution to the war effort. IMHO, the ANZAC forces were the fiercest fighters in the Commonwealth, if not the Allied side. It was a shame to me that Churchill refused (did he ?) to send ANZAC units back to the homeland from the Western Desert when Japan was on their doorstep.

huggy87
07-21-2004, 08:38 PM
Sorry Mate,
I am still not convinced. They may very well have been the 4th largest, but the info you present is not worth much. Many of your sources say the RAAF "was the 4th largest", but that could be someone simply qouting anothers mistake.

For example, I have seen many websites and books that claim the P-38 shot down more aircraft than any other allied plane. That is false. Somebody misspoke once and countless lazy authors and editors just included that 'fact' in their works. Just because something is quoted by multiple sources does not make it a fact.

Your photo shows that the RAAF ended the war with 6000 planes. I am looking at a book right now that says in 1945 alone Japan produced 8000 aircraft and Germany produced 11066. That is in addition to whatever they had in their inventories. Maybe the day after the war ended, when either nation could not claim a single aircraft Australia had the fourth largest.

What does it matter anyway. My hat is off to the RAAF regardless.

Latico
07-21-2004, 08:39 PM
My Dad was infantry in the Pacific, and apparently he must have crossed paths with some Australian Infantry. He said they were a tough bunch of rascals.

Athosd
07-21-2004, 09:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by huggy87:
Sorry Mate,
I am still not convinced. They may very well have been the 4th largest, but the info you present is not worth much. Many of your sources say the RAAF "was the 4th largest", but that could be someone simply qouting anothers mistake.

For example, I have seen many websites and books that claim the P-38 shot down more aircraft than any other allied plane. That is false. Somebody misspoke once and countless lazy authors and editors just included that 'fact' in their works. Just because something is quoted by multiple sources does not make it a fact.

Your photo shows that the RAAF ended the war with 6000 planes. I am looking at a book right now that says in 1945 alone Japan produced 8000 aircraft and Germany produced 11066. That is in addition to whatever they had in their inventories. Maybe the day after the war ended, when either nation could not claim a single aircraft Australia had the fourth largest.

What does it matter anyway. My hat is off to the RAAF regardless.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As you note, that's likely were the claim comes from - at the end of the war Japan and Germany, as defeated and occupied states had no armed forces at all.

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

RAC_Pips
07-21-2004, 10:00 PM
The tag 'Fourth Largest' Air Force does only refer to the Allies. A not inconsiderable achievement for a country that could only boast a population of 7,500,000 in 1945.

I guess the assumption is that as both Germany and Japan had been defeated their air forces (or what was left of them) didn't count.

Waldo.Pepper
07-21-2004, 10:39 PM
Hey! I just got an idea!!

Why don't we all argue about this for four or five pages full of posts!

C'mon it'll be fun!



http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Destraex
07-22-2004, 03:12 AM
Good idea Wally, and lets all learn while we do it that will be cool http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But seriously as I said in another post I am yet to read about the Australian Pacific Air War contribution after Papua NG. As far as I know after that it was all Catalinas and a few bombing missions. No major engagements.

And it is true that the US lead force for some reason relegated the Aussies to the backwater clean up duties for the last part of the war. Don't know why but it seems to be the same with the Austalian Air Force.
I guess even the British were kept out of the major battles at the end though.

Destraex
07-22-2004, 03:15 AM
http://members.iinet.net.au/~gduncan/facts.html

check this out LOL LOL ROTF

The first Allied shot of the war was fired over the bows of the Australian coaster 'Woniora' from a 6-inch gun emplacement guarding the entrance to Melbourne's Port Phillip Bay. The 823 ton coaster had entered the bay at 9.15 p.m. on September 3, 1939 after a trip from Tasmania. Ordered to heave to for inspection the coaster gave her identity but continued on without stopping. A 100 pound shell, fired across her bow, soon changed her captains mind. By a remarkable coincidence this was the same gun that had fired the first shot of World War 1 when, hours after war was declared, it fired on the German steamer Pfalz while it attempted to leave Australian waters on August 5, 1914. The Platz was captured and served out the rest of World War 1 as the Australian troopship 'Boorara '.

Destraex
07-22-2004, 03:23 PM
I wonder whether clapped out aussie spitfires will make it in?

A/C are always like brand new out of factory planes in this game performance wise

VW-IceFire
07-22-2004, 04:11 PM
I thought Canada was the fourth largest Allied airforce? Maybe we're third or fifth http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Whatever, the Aussies are good friends and allies to have! I hope to have the ability to fly for them in Pacific Fighters. It'll be fun!

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Athosd
07-22-2004, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Destraex:
Good idea Wally, and lets all learn while we do it that will be cool http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But seriously as I said in another post I am yet to read about the Australian Pacific Air War contribution after Papua NG. As far as I know after that it was all Catalinas and a few bombing missions. No major engagements.

And it is true that the US lead force for some reason relegated the Aussies to the backwater clean up duties for the last part of the war. Don't know why but it seems to be the same with the Austalian Air Force.
I guess even the British were kept out of the major battles at the end though.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There were a great deal more than a "few" bombing missions. 51+ RAAF squadrons were engaged in the Pacific theatre in all air to air and air to surface roles.
Clapped out Spitfires? Get a grip.
No major engagements??
Is this a troll?

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

XyZspineZyX
07-22-2004, 08:21 PM
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/caldw/caldw.htm

SkyChimp
07-22-2004, 08:37 PM
The Aussies were absolutely critical to the defense of Port Moresby, taking on and defeating, almost single-handedly, the Japanese South Seas Force who marched over the Owen Stanley mountains to take Port Moresby.

Regards,
http://members.cox.net/us.fighters/signature.jpg

Lt.Davis
07-22-2004, 11:15 PM
Your link show me this...

RAAF - encyclopedia article about RAAF. Free access, no ...
... The Indian economy is the fourth-largest in the world, in terms ... Vietnam, attack on
Iraq) See also: Aircraft of the RAAF ... Royal Australian Air Force F-18 Hornet. ...

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

RAC_Pips
07-22-2004, 11:50 PM
Actually the Australian Army was the first Allied force to defeat the Japanese in any land battle in WWII.

The first was as SkyChimp mentioned ie on the Kokoda Trail. The second wa at Milne Bay. Both occurred before Guadalcanal.

And 75 Squadron RAAF was the first Allied fighter Squadron into action against the IJNAF in New Guinea in March 1942. Equipped with Kittyhawk Mk.I's (the P-40E) 75 Squadron was finally relieved in May, after the 36th Fighter Squadron (8th PG) USAAF equipped with P-39 Airacobra's was classed as operational on 30 April.

Destraex
07-23-2004, 04:06 AM
quote: "after Papua NG"

Kudos goes to whomever can give me a list of what these 51 squadrons were equiped with.

Actually this is not a troll but it is an information fishing expedition as I know very little about Australia's involvement in the Pacific Air War. I am a proud Australian but wanted to see somebody refute the claims which would surely be made sooner or l8ter.
I was also being rather lazy in hoping that somee of the gents on this forum would be able to give me some quick and easy answers to put my mind at ease.
I am not sure where but I had heard that some of the spitfires we had were clapped out, whether this was due to the attrition rate in the tropical conditions or the fact that we did receive second hand spitfires I am not knowledgeable enough to know.
Really I think it is much easier to find history about the Australian involvement in the mediteranean or European theatre than the pacific apart from PNG which is very famous for the kokoda trail and patrols with two bullets etc.
For 51 squadrons worth of aircraft their seems to be very little literature information out their or movies etc. I mean I know it is not in an Aussies nature to self glorify ones actions of necessity but would love to read some novels on the subject. I have read books on the flying tigers, the pacific american pilots, the battle of britain but have not seen the Australian AF covered in a similar fashion.
This Black Cats film I am hoping will shed some light while entertaining.
I mean fo 54 squadrons how many Japanese air kills did we get?

Forget Darwin too, we only went up a couple of time and hardly hit a sausage (although we were fine tuning the spits for Aussie conditions at the time). I only want to hear about what our 51 squadrons were doing after PNG was over

geetarman
07-23-2004, 12:07 PM
My dad was also US Army in the Pacific. Had nothing but good things to say about the Aussie's.

BTW wasn't there a shooting incident between US and Aussie soldiers at an Australian train station during WWII? I remember seeing a recreation of this in a movie made in the 80's. Any details about actually happened?

RAAF_Furball
07-23-2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Davis:
Your link show me this...

RAAF - encyclopedia article about RAAF. Free access, no ...
... _The Indian economy is the fourth-largest _ in the world, in terms ... Vietnam, attack on
Iraq) See also: Aircraft of the RAAF ... Royal Australian Air Force F-18 Hornet. ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You silly bugger http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ..... don't you know how to use Google? - ignore the ones that don't relate. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The first find is not always the one you want ........ http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

_RAAF_Furball, CO

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Destraex
07-23-2004, 05:59 PM
Yes there was a shooting incident which is seperate to the train incident.

Battle of Brisbane
http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/ozatwar/bob.htm

quote: "A second impact was the creation of considerable rivalry between Australian and American troops, and jealousy on the Australians' part. The American troops were better paid and - with their access to consumer items in their PX (a supermarket set up exclusively for American defence personnel) and services like taxis - were able to live more lavishly and comfortably than the local Australians. This in turn led to some women preferring the Americans socially.

This climaxed in a number of clashes between Australian and American troops in Melbourne, Perth and especially the infamous 'Battle of Brisbane' where hundreds of troops fought viciously in the city streets.

It is important, however, not to overemphasise these events. Many, perhaps even most Australian women, probably never met, let alone went out with, an American soldier. And the 'battles' between the troops involved only the tiniest minority of soldiers on each side." end quote

I also remember some sort of troop train incident where a american troop train pulls in next to an australian troop train and a brawl between the two trains starts

Athosd
07-23-2004, 07:12 PM
Destraex - for a brief history of the RAAF in WW2 follow this link:
http://www.raaf.gov.au/history/air_force_fought/WW2_2.htm

For short unit histories of RAAF squadrons (includes which aircraft they flew and when) follow this link:
http://www.raafmuseum.com.au/raaf2/html/squadrons.htm

The "Battle of Brisbane", though fueled by tensions arising from the better pay and conditions of the US servicemen, started as an incident between Australian troops and US MPs. There are various accounts of how it started - one is that 2 Diggers attacked an MP, who was engaged in bashing a US soldier with his baton (US MPs were apparently rather famous for liberal use of the stick and firearms).

As the MPs withdrew into the PX store (on the corner of Creek and Adelaide streets) several hundred Aussies gathered outside. One of the MP reinforcements to arrive on the scene (Norbert J Grant) was armed with a pump action shotgun - there was a struggle in which Edward Webster (a decorated member of the 7th Division) attempted to disarm Norbert Grant; and was shot and killed.
At that point the scene became a riot and quite a few were injured. As word of the killing spread tempers flew and the next night Australian soldiers assaulted any American they could catch - there were no more deaths but apparently about 21 US personel were quite badly beaten.

This outburst appears to have let off a lot of pressure - as relations between Australian and US troops went back to normal almost immediately.
Normal did include about 20 punch ups a night - but with 300,000+ high spirited young men in a small city thats rather to be expected.

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Bluedog72
07-23-2004, 07:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Capt._Tenneal:
You don't need to convince me mate ! I know they have a significant contribution to the war effort. IMHO, the ANZAC forces were the fiercest fighters in the Commonwealth, if not the Allied side. It was a shame to me that Churchill refused (did he ?) to send ANZAC units back to the homeland from the Western Desert when Japan was on their doorstep.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, he did.
Then he gave Singapore up without a fight, after crying for years that "Australia's security is garaunteed by Fortress Singapore and the Royal Navy".
These events, among others, caused Australian loyalties to shift slightly, and military ties and treaties with the United States were strengthened.



BTW, I think that a large number of RAAF squadrons were attached to the RAF as bomber units, trained through the Commonwealth Air Training Scheme, and having RAF unit designations.
At the end of the war, these units were included in the overall strength of the RAAF.

Another BTW, unfortunately, for two groups of men who are in actual fact staunch allies, the US military and the Aussie military have quite a long history of killing/maiming one another.
Did you know that the first shots fired in anger by an Allied fighter over Korea was from an Aussie P51 Mustang.......fired at a convoy of US Army troop trucks? Sad but true.

RAAFVirtSqn
07-23-2004, 08:38 PM
Destraex,

Are you a game developer or historical reasearcher or something, getting us suckers to do the hard yards for you?

Or just on for a rise via inferential and direct insults and a challenge with the Aussie IL2/AEP/PF community?

Anyway here is a start of what the SQNs were equiped with - Aircraft Type, period of service, numbers that were in service

Go to this link: http://www.diggerhistory.info/pages-air-support/ww2-allied/aircraft-raaf.htm

By the way give or take a couple of years post 1945 there were some 7,000 aircraft in service with the RAAF (not RAF)during WW2.

Destraex
07-23-2004, 10:38 PM
RAAFVirtSqn I am just one man surrounded by people who are knowledgeable about the Australian air forces involvement in the Pacific. I am not out for a rise but was hoping to inspire some responses that would give me the low down on how large and dignified our involvement really was in perspective with the rest of the countries involved.
I would have liked to hear how the AU AF charged side by side right back to japan with the Americans and the British.

I guess the main reason I want to know this is so that when PF comes out I can make some Australian missions on the maps provided with the satisfaction of knowing that they are at least a fair representation of a scenario that could have happened. By could have happened I mean had a pretty damn good chance of happening with respect to the forces in the area and the stategic stances at the time.
If (and I will do some research too) we were just patrolling in the rear areas I will make chance encounter coop missions with relatively few planes. If we are heavily involved in protecting assets that are likely to be attacked and were, then the missions can be a little broader. If we were on the front lines of most maps provided in PF then the missions get even easier to make.
My missions are made for small LANs we have in Sydney. THey start near the action and where possible I stick to history or at least likely history. The other guys that play may not have the slightest inkling about history but at least it suspends my belief a little and is easier to make briefings around.
My missions are more about the experience rather than the kills.
When I say they stick to history I should point out that they are not historical, rather based on what if anonymous engagements or small parts of larger engagements. I do not get petty with details but like a historical flavour and an aircraft set that actually flew together on the map

So you now see why I want to know, really I just want to write the script and set the scene for the inevitable LANS. It just inspires me to make missions really.

P.S. Was milne bay an Australian victory or were we working alongside an American unit?

[This message was edited by Destraex on Fri July 23 2004 at 10:02 PM.]

WTE_Chunder
07-25-2004, 06:06 AM
Quote:
"Many, perhaps even most Australian women, probably never met, let alone went out with, an American soldier. And the 'battles' between the troops involved only the tiniest minority of soldiers on each side."

I hate to bust a cherry, but in Brisbane there was significant mal content between the two sides. My Grandmother was a truck driver serving in Brisbane at the time of the events. It is one of the things she can remember quite well.

Being a woman in uniform - uh huh. Anyrate Yes there was lots of rivalry, you couldn't buy anything from any shops, because the yanks got more money and the shopkeepers would ignore the Americans, and a LOT of aussie girls hooked up with yanks. At the same time it is just wrong to say that it was just jealousy on the part of the australians. It takes two to tango, and many Americans used this to their advantage, the Australians knew it, the Americans knew it, and so there was a fair degree of rivalry. Wartime brisbane was not a very happy place as far as relations would be concearned. Regardless of the result, the effect was pronounced, and I wouldn't denounce it as just a few bad eggs.

As a rather popular girl at the time least to say she was in a prime possie to experience the arrogance.

Re RAAF commitment in the pacific - we were relegated to so called back areas. Since most of the war then took on an Island hopping format, each new battle was viewed as the march towards japan, nobody really cared that much except those that were involved in those areas no matter how entrenched japanese forces were. Thats what happens when the goal is to break the supply chain and establish bases further and further forward. RAAF took part after the major early war battles on ground attack missions. Borneo is certainly worth a mention.

Re the troops, Churchil wanted them in Africa. Menzies recognised the threat, and wrote increasingly in his diaries regarding Churchill. His sentiments were also echoed by the Canadian Prime Minister at the time. Caldwall then was elected to office after Menzies was outed, Caldwell ordered them back home. I'm not sure what nationality the transports were, but halfway back over the Indian ocean Churchil ordered them to set sail to India, to help the push to take china from the Japanese. Caldwell found out was furious or something, and ordered the ships to turn back for Australia.

Dear old Winsty, Is known for making quotes that went down in history, he is not, however, known for making bright decisions, and as he was drunk most of the time, according to aids and visitors, from the Prime ministers of Australia and Canada, down to Josef Stalin, who took some delight in keeping Churchill pissed at Yalta, whilst oh... just realised i'm getting political, i'm stopping now lol.

The RAAF cannot be said to have gone down in any major invasions in later years of the Pacific that history recognises. However, once you win an island, you need to keep the peace and defeat other hostilities. As 40 000 UK and 200 000 US troops are doing in iraq, not counting afghanistan, That do include air support - that is an expensive and dangerous operation. In large places like Borneo, and to and the surrounding islands of that theater, it is not as if you have just dumped hundreds of thousands of explosives on an island that you can walk across in no time, as most of the 'battles' for landmarks in the pacific islands was done - not counting Phillipeans where MacArthur clearly wanted to go for to fulfill his promise 'we shall return' Apart from Phillipeans this was because the U.S wanted to acheive a victory ASAP for staging offensives. Didn't want to have to deal with re-infocements landing and entrenching for a bitter fight on some big island no doubt. Not detracting anything from the huge price paid by the U.S for such an incredibly hard task. The Islands they took to acheive this were incredibly resistant, because Japan knew that these would be 'easy staging points' for any attack force. Further to that, they also provided staging points to cut off re inforcement to bigger islands. Small = easy to defend. Large = Pain in the butt. So, whoose doing all the cleaning up of the other islands? an unlucky bunch of US/Australian soldiers and ground attack airman.

A classic case of Divide and Conquer gentlemen I beleive! coined as island hopping to make it seem more technical, and ingenious. Gee originally I just wanter to respond to the brissie thing, but hopefully this can actually get some guys to realise just how involved the forces were in other areas the took the limelight. Everone remembers the Battle of Britain, but less that a 3rd, remember the resistance put up by the scandinavians countried too around that time also. Thats why it's important that they be included in Pacific fighters, as a tribute to some valient efforts.

WTE_Chunder
07-25-2004, 06:10 AM
I hate forgetting to Edit. Where I said "...the shopkeepers would ignore the Americans" I meant Australians.

shop keepers would sell out to the Americans, leaving Australians with well nothing quite litterally in some areas where there was an overwheming amount of yanks...

Athosd
07-25-2004, 06:30 AM
WTE_Chunder one correction - John Curtin was Prime Minister at the time (1941-1945, Died in office).

Cheers

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

RAAF_Furball
07-25-2004, 10:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Destraex:

P.S. Was milne bay an Australian victory or were we working alongside an American unit?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Here ya go ==&gt; http://www.dropbears.com/av/KFXart/articles/Truscot.htm

and

http://www.google.com.au/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=tomorrowhawks

_RAAF_Furball, CO

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Snuffy Smith
07-25-2004, 10:06 AM
I don't understand this thread. It is a simple thing--just think about it. Canada has about a 50% greater population and war potential than Australia. The RCAF reached a war strength of over 200,000 compared to the RAAF's 180,000 or so. The RCAF had over 80 combat squadrons compared to about 50 for the RAAF. Canada is just a bigger country. Proportionately the Australian war effort was probably greater than Canada's, but Australia faced a more immediate and direct threat. It looks like from the numbers that the 4th largest allied airforce was Canada's and the 5th was Australia's.

By the way, the 4th largest allied army at war's end (after the UK, US, and USSR) was Poland's. There were more Polish units than French in action at war's end.

B-29 Snuffy & The Skunks
676th Bombardment Sqdn (Very Heavy)
444th Group, 58th Wing, 20th Air Force
http://mysite.verizon.net/res7kxfm/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/676bs240.jpg

Athosd
07-25-2004, 07:46 PM
Snuffy - Australia fielded at least 74 squadrons in WW2 (51+ served some time in PTO). The reference to the RAAF being 4th largest air force at war's end is not someones guess - its published history.
If the RCAF were being robbed of some recognition I'd expect one of their historians to have said something about the matter, and RAAF historians (and others) to correct their records.
Given that the bulk of the RAAF was disbanded very shortly after hostilities ceased we're hardly likely to have held the 4th place "crown" for long.

Here are some rough figures on population, military enlistment and military KIA (all theatres). [sourced from Australian War Memorial - www.awm.gov.au] (http://www.awm.gov.au])

Nation, Pop, Military, KIA:

New Zealand 1.6M 295K 12200
Australia 6.9M 993K 39366
Canada 11.1M 1.1M 39300

Rough percentages for military commitment and KIA.

Nation, enlisted%, KIA%:

New Zealand 18.4% 4.1%
Australia 14.4% 4.0%
Canada 9.9% 3.6%

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

taly01
07-26-2004, 01:01 AM
Australia was one of the MAJOR combatants in the Pacific War up to 1943. Understandable when you know Japan made around 200 raids by air/sea on our mainland! How many raids did Japan make on mainland USA?? 1-2???

Australia had depended on Britain for its Pacific defence, and that failed rather badly due to the gutless leadership of the British on the ground, their inept planning and lack of equipment in the Pacific theater.

Malaysia, Singapore, New Guinea were Australia's strategically significant contribution to WW2 Pacific.

The first stategic defeats (not just local fights) on Japan were made by Australia in New Guinea 1942. At this time the USA was out fighting/helping to keep Egypt British, Tunisia French and Poland Communist ;/ This was due to America's "Germany-First" policy. It was only after early 1943 and Stalingrad and the invasion of Italy when it became clear that Nazi Germany had lost the war that the US really put its resources seriously into the Pacific war.

After 1943 the US mobilization and many mechanized forces needed for the island hopping campaign meant Australia was left behind doing mopping up operations.

Destraex
07-26-2004, 02:52 AM
ahhhh, so we did not have the equipment to follow America, well thats fair enough. And you cannot complain about not getting killed when you have already done so much.

So what of these guys who point out that the Aussies were in many major battles right to the end?

RAC_Pips
07-26-2004, 03:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by taly01:
After 1943 the US mobilization and many mechanized forces needed for the island hopping campaign meant Australia was left behind doing mopping up operations.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats not quite correct. New Guinea wasn't won over from the Japanese until late 1944, and up until then it was the primary Theatre of Operations for both the US Army and USAAF, and the Australian Army and RAAF.

With the successful completion of that long campaign the Allied forces divided. MacArthur led the American forces north into the Philipines, and for political reasons refused Australian help. So Blamey focused on a new series of campaigns in 1944 against isolated Japanese garrisons stretching from Borneo to Bougainville; this involved more Australian troops than were used at any other time in the war.

The first of these campaigns was fought on Bougainville, New Britain and at Aitape, from December 1944 to September 1945.

The second major offensive was the Tarakan Invasion which occurred from May 1 to July 31 1945.

The third offensive was the main invasion of Borneo at Balikpapan, which started on 1 July and continued through to war's end in September 1945.

The Australian late war campaigns of '44-'45 have come in for a fair degree of critism, being classed as unnecessary and wasteful of lives. However it should be remembered that only a select few new of the Ato,mic Bomb, and no-one realised the effect it would really have on Japans abil;ity to wage war. Even as late as August 1945 plans were still going ahead for the invasion of Japan, of which Australian Forces would have been very heavily involved.

Destraex
07-26-2004, 05:26 AM
I see, well that opens up some very interesting opportunities for australian missions. I assume we used our own landing craft, ships, bombers nad fighter support.

I also assume the enemy was well dug in, hidden and had no fighter cover. This would have made for very little RAAF action.

Or have I got it wrong. Please say yes?

RAC_Pips
07-26-2004, 04:01 PM
No Destraex, your quite correct.

Over Bougainville both the RNZAF and the RAAF units activities were limited to ground strikes.

And over Borneo the same applied for the RAAF units involved there. There were the very occassional clashes with Ki-43 and Ki-44 units, but for the most part the RAAF provided flying artillery duties.

WTE_Tigger
07-26-2004, 10:05 PM
S!

Interesting Thread http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As a little trip down amnesia lane, and some personal family history, Blamey and MacArthur didn't get on so well and MacArthur was glad to be rid of him. Tensions between the two were high.

MacArthur once said to Blamey,
"If you were and American I'd have you shot!"
Blamey replied,
"If I was an American I'd shoot myself!"

My lil contribution http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.users.bigpond.com/lsf_anvil/images/new_sig.jpg

WTE_Tigger
(Beren J Blamey)

Athosd
07-27-2004, 12:12 AM
I'm in two minds about Tom Blamey - he lost my vote with that infamous "its the rabbit that runs that gets shot" bit of insulting nonsense at Koitaki.

MacArthur always came across as a poser - more a political animal than a soldier (hence his escape from retribution after the Phillipines debacle).

That said both are long dead, and whatever else they may have done along the way, they served their countries with success and distinction.

Salute

Athos

Over the Hills and O'er the Main,
To Flanders, Portugal and Spain,
The Queen commands and we'll obey
Over the Hills and far away.

Destraex
07-27-2004, 03:00 AM
Any documentation on those few clashes with the RAAF and the KI43/44s as these will be the focus of any non-PNG missions I make.

Were they squadron sized or larger. Were spitfires and RNZAF corsairs involved?

RAAFVirtSqn
07-27-2004, 05:52 AM
Yes I believe part of the reason for not getting on so well is that McArthur did not really respect Blamey's love for the drop.

eleanori
07-27-2004, 09:57 AM
Well another one that gets people going is the old were did the war in the pacific start, stock answer, Pearl Harbour.

Check history, the RAAF had been in action for a few hours by then on the north coast of Malaya.

Destraex
07-30-2004, 04:32 AM
thats the sh$t

so tha Americans had warning http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

flying-flea
07-30-2004, 10:50 AM
heres a couple of sites that worth a read

aussie airfields in ww2 (http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/airfields.htm)

MILITARY UNITS (http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/muoz.htm)

RAAFVirtSqn
07-30-2004, 11:01 PM
Aussie airfields - at Least Higgins Field please!

We at least need Higgins field at the top of Cape York, if no other Aussie airfields are planned for PF. It is very close to Horn Island and Port Moresby Paupa New Guinea.

This would also be a fitting tribute to Flight Lieutenant Brian Hartley Higgins also known as "Tubby" Higgins, who flew extensively with RAAF 11 Catalina Sqn. Tubby was also an Operational Training Unit instructor with RAAF 3 OTU and was killed in air operations during a rough water landing on 25 May 1943.

Rough water landings were an extremely difficult and dangerous exercise involving great piloting skill and experience by landing a Catalina/PBY in very rough swells to rescue downed pilots.

This required angling the aircraft and dropping the tail in the water so that the aircraft almost stood up on its tail at around 30 degrees. Then quickly reducing/almost cutting the throttle - so that aircraft then radically dropped with a bounce, then resuming to level flight. The throttles were then slightly increased to maintain level flight whilst landing between the waves. A difficult endeavor requiring great piloting skill by any standard.

There is an excellent map of Higgins field that be clicked on and exapnded at the following link: http://home.st.net.au/~dunn/airfields/higginsfield.htm
This could be used to design/develop Higgins field in PF.

"Lest we Forget"