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necrobaron
01-06-2004, 03:43 PM
Did the Ju-87D5 have dive brakes? I have references that say they were omitted and just as many references stating they were retained. Currently,my feeling is they were factory built with the brakes and then the brakes were later removed by the crews on the field as the Stuka switched from dive-bombing to ground attack. Am I correct in thinking this? Can anyone further enlighten me?

necrobaron
01-06-2004, 03:43 PM
Did the Ju-87D5 have dive brakes? I have references that say they were omitted and just as many references stating they were retained. Currently,my feeling is they were factory built with the brakes and then the brakes were later removed by the crews on the field as the Stuka switched from dive-bombing to ground attack. Am I correct in thinking this? Can anyone further enlighten me?

necrobaron
01-06-2004, 10:22 PM
Maybe there aren't as many Stuka fans as I thought....http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

poymando
01-06-2004, 10:49 PM
Hi Necrobaron,
In Manfred Griehl's book on the Stuka, it says that the D-5 was permitted a higher dive speed with the dive brakes retracted than previous models. It must have had dive brakes.

http://extremeone.4t.com/images/poy_soon.jpg

SUPERAEREO
01-07-2004, 02:55 AM
I would have thought they were removed if and when the planes were converted for nachtschlacht operations.

necrobaron
01-07-2004, 12:12 PM
bumpity....

DONB3397
01-07-2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Currently,my feeling is they were factory built with the brakes and then the brakes were later removed by the crews on the field as the Stuka switched from dive-bombing to ground attack. Am I correct in thinking this? Can anyone further enlighten me?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Try Hans Ulrich Rudel's book, "Stuka." When the "G" series came along, it was a jury-rig affair, with canons welded on the bottom of the wings. This slowed down a slow plane. Rudel, who must have had pure ice water for blood, liked to hang in the air so he could aim more effectively. But the mechs removed the "slats," I recall (haven't seen the book for years). It must have worked. He had flown some 1,600 sorties by the end of the war and survived to write the book.

Winning isn't everything;
It's the only thing!
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horseback
01-07-2004, 02:45 PM
Working from memory, the D models were still dive bombers and had the fences under their wings, but the G model was a tank destoyer and already had too much stuff hanging under the wings.

Nacht Schlacht variants probably dispensed with the dive brakes, but I imagine that was a unit level change.

Cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

LeadSpitter_
01-07-2004, 04:58 PM
All stukas had dive brakes even the 30's but it seems oleg confuses dive brakes with the siren in il2fb and the g version doesnt have dive brakes in fb which it did in reality.
the d5 has both the siren and dive brakes

stuka version
Ju87A0, Jumo 210Ca (470kW), 10 preseries aircraft built in 1936
Ju87A1, Jumo 210D (530kW), serial production since 1937
Ju87A2, Jumo 210Da (530kW), serial production line in 1938, about 200 built
Ju87B0, Jumo 211A1 (735kW), preseries built by Weserflug at Tempelhof in 1938, 10 built
Ju87B1, Jumo 211Da (880kW), new fuselage and wing, 952 built in 1937/1938
Ju87B2, Jumo 211Da built by Weserflug since 1939 slightly modified B1. Ju87B2Trop for tropical regions
Ju87B2U2, strengthened armor
Ju87B2U4, with skies for Eastern front
Ju87C, air carrier version for Graf Zeppelin with retractable wings, 5 built in 1938, B2-standard
Ju87D, Jumo 211J-1 (1043kW) with complete aerodynamical redesign
Ju87D1, front replacement of B2 since 1942 with larger wing and stronger undercarriage
Ju87D2, as D1 with stronger weapons, projected only
Ju87D3, with stronger armor
Ju87D4, torpedo aircraft, similar to D3
Ju87D5, increased span (15 meters), modified undercarriage and dive brake
Ju87D7, as D1 with longer span (15 meters) for night missions
Ju87D8, as D3 with longer span (15meters) and stronger weapons
Ju87F, Jumo 213, projected in 1941 with larger span, stronger undercarriage and Jumo 213, not built
Ju87G1, Jumo 211J1, tank attack aircraft, rebuilt from D3
Ju87G2, combat and tank attack aircraft, rebuilt from D5
Ju87H, training aircraft, rebuilt from D series (H1 to H8 rebuilt from D1 to D8)
Ju87K1, export version for Japan, 2 built in 1937, similar to A1
Ju87K2, export version for Hungary, 2 built in 1940 from B2, licence production at Weiss in Budapest
Ju87K3, export version for Bulgaria, 12 built in 1941 from R1
Ju87K4, export version for Hungary, 4 built in 1942 from A1
Ju87R, long range version with additional fuel tanks, based on B2
Ju87T, torpedo aircraft, projected only
Ju187, complete redesign with retractable undercarriage, Jumo 213 of 1942

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MiloMorai
01-07-2004, 05:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeadSpitter_:
All stukas had dive brakes even the 30's but it seems oleg confuses dive brakes with the siren in il2fb and the g version doesnt have dive brakes in fb which it did in reality.
the d5 has both the siren and dive brakes
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Gs had the dive brakes removed though the brackets were left on. This can be seen in photos.

The sirens were deleted on the D5s as photos of D5s show. D3s, early, had sirens but D3s, late, did not.

Some 87s had dual sirens fitted.

LeadSpitter_
01-07-2004, 05:41 PM
Ive read in the book "Stuka pilot [by] Hans-Ulrich Rudel : [translated from the German by Lynton Hudson]"
Hans Ulrich Rudel deploying his dive brakes in the g1 before destroying a column of russian tanks. You will find many photos of altered g1 and g2 models on the net with dive brakes or missing wheel covers which had the siren on them, in stuka pilot rudel talks about removing the wheel covers because grass and mud would build up in them.

They are also on the G model blueprints http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif as for the d5 I have never seen blueprints so really have no proof

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Afreaka
01-07-2004, 05:41 PM
Count me in. Though it sometimes gets tiresome being hunted cross the map by, dare I say non-stuka fans(e.g. noobs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ).

MiloMorai
01-07-2004, 06:15 PM
You can get D-5 drawings here,

http://www.aviacherteg.narod.ru/avia/Drawings/WWII/WWII_LWF/Ju-87/Ju87_menu.htm

Pg 55 of the S/S 87 InAction book(#1073) has a photo of one of the first G-1s to join Panzerjagdkommando Weiss with no dive brakes fitted(clearly seen). Also stated, is that it is believed to be an early mount of Rudel.

necrobaron
01-07-2004, 08:12 PM
The G-1(based on the D-3) had no dive-brakes,but still had the mounting brackets for them(like others have said). The siren mounts and guns were faired over. The G-2(based on the D-5) was a "cleaner" design than the G-1 in that it had no evidence of dive-brakes,sirens,or the 7.96mm guns. Rather than being faired over,they were omitted from the design altogether. But as far as the D-5 goes,I've seen references and profiles that both indicate that dive-brakes were and weren't present. That raises confusion for me. I noticed from screen shots that the D-5 we're getting in the add-on,has the brakes.....

MiloMorai
01-07-2004, 08:17 PM
necrobaron, the D-5s had 20mm wing cannons, not 7.92mm mgs in the wings.

necrobaron
01-07-2004, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MiloMorai:
necrobaron, the D-5s had 20mm wing cannons, not 7.92mm mgs in the wings.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooops! Yeah,I was thinking about the D-3 though I meant the D-5. Thanks....http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

JG77_Tintin
01-08-2004, 03:57 AM
The Ju87D-5 entered service on the Eastern front in July, 1943. They came with dive brakes. By this time, the Stukas were in the last stages of using the dive bomb attack method for pin point attacks and were shifting to alternative methods to attack armour on a mass scale. Dive bombing was officially abandoned on 5th October, 1943 and units were redesignated as Schlachtgeschwaders. Naturally modifications were made on existing and new production Stukas and this included removing those now unused dive brakes.

p1ngu666
01-08-2004, 09:01 AM
many 87's where modified to the G spec, maybe thats why they had the brakes?
also my book says most had the cannon in the wings removed or something, but it doesnt say all.
so some could be there with the flak gun, 2 20mm cannon and maybe even dive brakes.
now thats a good mud mover http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

MiloMorai
01-08-2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by p1ngu666:
many 87's where modified to the G spec, maybe thats why they had the brakes?
also my book says most had the cannon in the wings removed or something, but it doesnt say all.
so some could be there with the flak gun, 2 20mm cannon and maybe even dive brakes.
now thats a good mud mover http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What book is that?