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XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:26 PM
Hey all. I was just reading back on some older flight sims and I happened onto the B-17 2 game. I remember that the flight physics were way off, but one thing I really liked was how the Tracers "zigg-zagged" from the A/C vibrations. I just thought that would really add to IL-2's realism if they could have put them in. Do you think it would be possible to add in a patch? Does anyone care? Just thought I would bring it up.

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:26 PM
Hey all. I was just reading back on some older flight sims and I happened onto the B-17 2 game. I remember that the flight physics were way off, but one thing I really liked was how the Tracers "zigg-zagged" from the A/C vibrations. I just thought that would really add to IL-2's realism if they could have put them in. Do you think it would be possible to add in a patch? Does anyone care? Just thought I would bring it up.

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:48 PM
Gun cam footage can be deceptive. IIRC that zigzag is from the gun camera being vibrated and over exposure. The bullet moves quite a bit while one frame is being exposed and it creates 'trailers'; since the gun camera was being vibrated these tracers appeared to zigzag. The pilots prob didn't see it that way. This over exposure also causes the tracers to appear brighter and more visible than they really were.



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"Altitude, speed, maneuver, fire!"-The "formula of Terror" of Aleksandr Pokryshkin, Three times awarded the rank of Hero of the Soviet Union

XyZspineZyX
08-06-2003, 11:53 PM
Ah I see. It does make sense. Well it was still pretty cool IMO. Thnx for the info georgeo76.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:46 AM
Gun camera option would be nice. Does anybody remember the lighting effects for high altitude flight in Janes Attack Squadron? and how cool the aircraft looked with the sun glinting off of their wings, this would be a nice touch in this game.

"They Gave All Their Tommorrows So That We Can Have Our Todays"

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:49 AM
Actually bullets do "rise and fall" on the way to the target.

They don't fly in a straight line.




JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:59 AM
Trajectory-yes, zig-zag, no. Unless there's something very wrong with the weapon's barrell.

I had a 45-70 trapdoor Springfield once that was so shot-out that the bullets would hit side-on at about 50 yds.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:32 AM
I watched some very good German gun cam footage last night, and also some shots that were taken from a 3rd aircraft. Well, guess what? From the 3rd AC the tracers were still wobbling. I have always guessed that the wobble came from the camera platform vibrating, but now I must think differently. If the wobble came from the viberating of yet the 3rd plane, I would not have seen such a stable shot of the other aircraft in the film. I have to deduce then that there is actually a visible "wiggling" of the tracers. There are addons for Jane's WWII Fighters that do this. If you have the game, get the "Smoky Tracers" effect. In some ways it looks better than what we have in FB . . . overall, I have to say that FB is the king, though.

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/images/proctorZeke.jpg
"My ancestors didn't come over in the Mayflower--they met the boat."


http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:16 AM
One reason that the tracers wobble is that the phospher in the end of the bullet is burning at an uneven rate and as it burns the weight changes on the round and that causes the bullet to make those funny tracks..

The bullets that you can't see fly alot more on course that the tracers do.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 11:33 AM
Bullets "rise and fall" on the way to the target, it's a known fact in competitive shooting.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif



JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"



Message Edited on 08/07/0303:36AM by JG27_Arklight

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:35 PM
But i think that the Tracers are still too thick... i mean
it looks like the planes would shoot burning soccerballs
even in P-series where the guns aren't too big...
there is no problem if the Mk108 tracers are so big...
i mean the bullets ARE big... but in mgs..? not THAT big...

<center>[i]1mg to me and ur down /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif [i]</center>

<center>-=‚'EverdarK<|>Tracer‚'=-</center>

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 12:49 PM
http://www.bf109.com/images/bf109cartsw.jpg


Look at the size of that thing! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

I like the tracer effects on the game B-17 the mighty 8th, they do seem wobble/zigzag but in real life I can't comment on that, I never seen tracer rounds. Checkout the tracer rounds on M60 and others here - good site.


http://www.gulfcoastarmory.com/mgvids.html


=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 01:57 PM
On IL2 the 15mm machine gun bullets from the Bf/Me 109 seem to twirl in a circle. Has anyone else noticed this? Is this similar to what you were talking about. I remember B17IIs gun effects. They did look very good, but i felt that the handling of the aircraft was very unconvincing and disappointing. However, it was still very good for its time.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:11 PM
HAHHA

Sometimes it is a toss up as to what is greater in this community ...

Lack of knowledge of physics or ballistics

Examples ....

" One reason that the tracers wobble is that the phospher in the end of the bullet is burning at an uneven rate and as it burns the weight changes on the round and that causes the bullet to make those funny tracks..

The bullets that you can't see fly alot more on course that the tracers do."

What possible good would the tracer be if it were not impacting the same point as the rest of the stream of flying lead ??????

or ...

Bullets "rise and fall" on the way to the target, it's a known fact in competitive shooting.


Believe it or not, this "known fact" has made it outside of the "competitive shooting" crowd, and into the juniorhigh classrooms and gymnasiums... basketball players are aware of the same rise and fall phenomenon ...

lol


CC



Message Edited on 08/07/0301:25PM by Coon-Chow

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:52 PM
Coon-Chow wrote:
- HAHHA
-
- Sometimes it is a toss up as to what is greater in
- this community ...
-
- Lack of knowledge of physics or ballistics


I hope that you have another alias, and that your 'over 10' postings is misleading me. If you are new, you are about to find out that this is one place where facts are presented to the point, ad nauseum. There are more real pilots flying this game right now than you could imagine, CFI's, regular student pilots like myself, and you may find a real WWII vet in here from time to time. Brace yourself, mate, and get some manners.

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/images/proctorZeke.jpg
"My ancestors didn't come over in the Mayflower--they met the boat."


http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 02:58 PM
Why are there always these people who are willing to cause trouble in the forums- it ruins the atmosphere. And I have also noticed that alot of people who cause the trouble are people who have only "over 10 posts." Hmmm...strange, isn't it? Anyway, to prove that there is an unquantifiable amount of knowledge about physics and ballistics, just look at some of the threads. There was a MASSIVE thread about if a P47s .50 cal bullets could penetrate the underbelly of a Tiger tank. It was very informative and interesting, with many people chipping in to help answer the question.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

Message Edited on 08/07/0302:00PM by EDtheHead6445

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 03:17 PM
- I hope that you have another alias, and that your
- 'over 10' postings is misleading me. If you are new,
- you are about to find out that this is one place
- where facts are presented to the point, ad nauseum.
- There are more real pilots flying this game right
- now than you could imagine, CFI's, regular student
- pilots like myself, and you may find a real WWII vet
- in here from time to time. Brace yourself, mate, and
- get some manners.


Never let postcount be a measure of impact .. lol.. if that were the case, just ask RBJ what's the deal

And we are speaking about tracers ... not pilot training or certification that gives someone's opinion no more inertia in this discussion than my degree in cultural anthropology...

now a fighter jock from wwii commenting on what the tracers looked like with the old MK101 eyeball ... I'll buy ...

don't want to upset anyone, just want to point out that there are some funny, funny misnomers tossed up ...

No I don't fly a Cessna, but I have fired tracers (not in flight), and I am here to tell you they do NOT zigzag ..they do not appear to zigzag


the best explanation was the vibration/framerate theory .. right on the money .. what the camera sees is often much different than what the eye sees

and come on ... the tigertank discussion was hilarious !


CC



Message Edited on 08/07/03‚ 02:23PM by Coon-Chow

Message Edited on 08/07/0302:34PM by Coon-Chow

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 03:24 PM
hmmm, I guess this thread is going to get locked soon?? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
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XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 03:41 PM
Coon-Chow wrote:
- now a fighter jock from wwii commenting on what the
- tracers looked like with the old MK101 eyeball ...
- I'll buy ...
-
- don't want to upset anyone, just want to point out
- that there are some funny, funny misnomers tossed up
- ...
-
- No I don't fly a Cessna, but I have fired tracers,
- they do NOT zigzag ..
-



Good point, and I was just trying to point out that

1. You may have not meant to, but your post seemed rude.

2. We don't know about this for sure. That is the reason for this thread. We WANT to know, so I personally am not assuming frst-hand knowledge.

The CO of my squadron is friends with two Yank aces, Jack Ilfrey, and Art Heiden. He and I had a discussion about this, and he is going to ask whichever one he can get in touch with first about the appearance of the tracers from the pilot's POV while in flight. I am going to suggest that he do a small interview for this forum, providing of course that whichever one he speaks with has the time, and is up to it.

I have fired tracers as well, from M-60 machine gun, and the M-16 POS that they gave me in the US Army, and I have to agree with you about not noticing tracer 'wiggle'. However, I was not firing from an aircraft that was already travelling hundreds of miles per hour, and was not firing at the incredible distances that WWII fighter jocks did.

Please forgive me, but your post did seem rude.

Tsisqua

http://www.cherokee.org/Culture/images/proctorZeke.jpg
"My ancestors didn't come over in the Mayflower--they met the boat."


http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612345111

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 03:42 PM
Oh well. Lets just agree on this- tracers do what they are supposed to do- fly from the gun creating a bright light which can be used to see where the bullets are going. Who cares if they travel up, down, left, right or even backwards. And anyway, this discussion was about B17IIs tracer effects, a game which was made years and years ago (about 3)? That game had a lot of problems, but it was playable, and they did put a lot of detail into the visual effects of the game.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 05:18 PM
Georgeo76 has it right as far as I'm aware.

Perhaps it could be an interesting option to add in from external views, to go along with the gigantic lens flare. But I don't think it's something that would appear the same way to a pilot as it does in some gun camera footage. Certainly the tracer rounds would appear to move relative to the pilots POV, but not to the extent that they would look like some kind of crooked lightning bolt. Someone recently posted a still frame from the movie Enemy At The Gates from the Stuka attack sequence in that film, which shows off this effect quite nicely.

As for Coon-chow, oh dear ..

I doubt there's room in your mind at the moment for much else besides conceit and that incredibly irritating, condescending tone, but please try and keep up here:

Tracer rounds have a different composition and weight to other rounds fired.

Tracer rounds present a different aerodynamic profile to other rounds fired.

Tracer rounds absolutely follow a different trajectory to other rounds fired. This difference will obviously become more pronounced as distance / range increases, and, as mentioned by Cess Harpoon, in many cases the tracer round is literally burning off weight and changing shape as it travels.

This is backed up by literally every pilot account I have ever seen that comments on gunnery in any meaningful sense.

Please by all means continue to lurk until you're capable of at least being polite when you're wrong.

Also, though I shudder to think that I'm actually inviting you to post here ever again, would you care to comment on the origin of your login name? I'm just wondering whether it's actually intended to be an offensive racial slur, or if it just sounds like one.

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 05:38 PM
- clint-ruin wrote:
- Also, though I shudder to think that I'm actually
- inviting you to post here ever again, would you care
- to comment on the origin of your login name? I'm
- just wondering whether it's actually intended to be
- an offensive racial slur, or if it just sounds like
- one.
Hmmm. I hadnt noticed that but now that you mention it that does sound like a suspicious login name.
I haven't ever fired a real gun (apart from an air rifle and an air pistol). I do not intend to in the future. So I do not know how a tracer would move when fired. However, I do have an interest in IL2 FB and the knowledge of the people who post on this forum.

To be able to fare well,
To avoid the frustration of misfortune,
That, in this world, is happiness.
-Euripides' Electra

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:26 PM
clint-ruin wrote:

- As for Coon-chow, oh dear ..
-
- I doubt there's room in your mind at the moment for
- much else besides conceit and that incredibly
- irritating, condescending tone, but please try and
- keep up here:

Sorry pal, that happens to be my early in the morning effect, not trying to be condescending ..

amazing how people in forumns try and apply attitudes and emotions to what someone types .. i have a hard time conveying tone .. I thought it was lighthearted .. you interpereted as concieted and condescending ?

- Tracer rounds have a different composition and
- weight to other rounds fired.

Negligible ....

-
- Tracer rounds present a different aerodynamic
- profile to other rounds fired.

Also negligible ...


- Tracer rounds absolutely follow a different
- trajectory to other rounds fired. This difference
- will obviously become more pronounced as distance /
- range increases,

Lucky I had some time and had to work out back anyway ..I conducted a test ..hardly lab environment..but.. anyway

loaded up 5.56 ball/tracer/ball combo and fired 3 groups off the bench .. 100, 300, 475 yds.. (thats what I have marked) .. ammo is US issue (surplus) .. shot group is .75 / 1.75 / 1.85 inches respectively (its not match ammo !).. apparently negligible difference in ballistics from ball ammo


and, as mentioned by Cess Harpoon,
- in many cases the tracer round is literally burning
- off weight and changing shape as it travels.

Milligrams at best ....maybe nano grams ?

-
- This is backed up by literally every pilot account I
- have ever seen that comments on gunnery in any
- meaningful sense.

I have never heard of accounts of zigzag tracers from pilots.. I have only seen the same WWII footage and the zigzag is produced from camera/film/platform/shutterspeed

-
- Please by all means continue to lurk until you're
- capable of at least being polite when you're wrong.

I am polite.. I feel I am .. and I do not feel I am wrong

-
- Also, though I shudder to think that I'm actually
- inviting you to post here ever again, would you care
- to comment on the origin of your login name? I'm
- just wondering whether it's actually intended to be
- an offensive racial slur, or if it just sounds like
- one.

Sure.. Login is same as the one I fly with and have been since the days of serial cable head to head "Knights of the sky" with my brother in law (god rest his soul) who's knickname happened to be Coon .. he gave it to me, based on the thrashings I would take in those old biplanes at the hands of that guy ... I dont quite see the racial angle ...

CC



Message Edited on 08/07/0306:31PM by Coon-Chow

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:34 PM
Read somewhere that it has something to do with the framerate with the carmera/film.I do like the ammo impact effect in B172,quite similar to those gun camera films I‚¬īve seen.

<img src="http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_113_1059857696.jpg"

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:39 PM
Coon-Chow wrote:
- HAHHA
-
- Sometimes it is a toss up as to what is greater in
- this community ...
-
- Lack of knowledge of physics or ballistics
-
- Examples ....
-
- " One reason that the tracers wobble is that the
- phospher in the end of the bullet is burning at an
- uneven rate and as it burns the weight changes on
- the round and that causes the bullet to make those
- funny tracks..
-
- The bullets that you can't see fly alot more on
- course that the tracers do."
-
- What possible good would the tracer be if it were
- not impacting the same point as the rest of the
- stream of flying lead ??????
-
- or ...
-
- Bullets "rise and fall" on the way to the target,
- it's a known fact in competitive shooting.
-
-
- Believe it or not, this "known fact" has made it
- outside of the "competitive shooting" crowd, and
- into the juniorhigh classrooms and gymnasiums...
- basketball players are aware of the same rise and
- fall phenomenon ...
-
- lol
-
-
- CC
-
-
-
- Message Edited on 08/07/03‚ 01:25PM by Coon-Chow



I hate to say it, but it is a fact.

Bullets do not fly in a straight line to the target.




JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"

Message Edited on 08/07/0311:41AM by JG27_Arklight

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 07:44 PM
Not sure on the gun cameras .. but a lot of the motion picture cameras of that vintage were spring driven .. you had to wind them ..I am sure these are the types many airmen and corespondents carried aloft...as the spring wound down, the shutter and film would slow down, decreasing the framerate..I have a Kodak Brownie 8mm from the late 40's, and thats the way it operates.

tracers use a coating of strontium nitrate, strontium peroxide, barium peroxide, lead peroxide, magnesium powder, calcium resinate, and PVC (tracer compound) and barium peroxide, magnesium, antimony trisulfide, and graphite (ignition compound) ...

The bullet is not cast of these compounds, only coated or tipped with them ... it's not as though the bullet is dissintegrating in flight ..



CC



Message Edited on 08/07/0307:02PM by Coon-Chow

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:04 PM
http://www.perry-systems.com/about_ballistics.htm

There you go.

Unless you were agreeing with me in the first place. I couldn't really tell from your post.



JG27_Arklight
"Taking out the garbage since release"

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:17 PM
Funny how you guys think coon chow is rude but yet you respond by being rude yourself.

Tracer rounds don't wiggle.
Think of it this way, to make that wiggle effect that we see in guncam and other film the bullet would have to change course by about 30 degrees, than return back to its original course. This is not possible for any bullet to do, I don't care if it is slighty changing wieght or shape. Elevation and windage change yes, but bullets don't make abrupt course changes unless they hit something. It was agreed though that the tracer ammo did not track as well as the ap ammo, but to say it zig zagged is a stretch. Also, and I'm not positive about this but look at the difference between the films shown in slow motion and a more regular fps. The ones shown in slo-mo show the tracers flying as we would expect, straight. While the normal speed films you see more of the zig zag effect. Have no idea why this is, but it seems true.

As far as the tracers looking to big, I think this is just a game necessisity. IRL the pilot probably did'nt even see the tracer until it was down range a bit because of where his eyes were focused(down range) and the speed at the muzzle being so high. I think once there down range the tracers look quit good in this game, in fact the red and yellow smokeless tracers are quit hard to see once down range, just rather large when coming out of the muzzle.



Message Edited on 08/07/0307:39PM by BillRK

XyZspineZyX
08-07-2003, 08:28 PM
Hi,
Well i'm not going to pretend i'm an ballistic or weapons expert but i do have expirience in firing weapons ranging from 5.56 mm up 57 mm Bofors All purpose ship weaponry and the CarlGustav 9cm recioles Antitank weapon. My employment is as an engineer in the swedish navy and that give the opportunity to test some weapons even though it's not my "native" duty /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif .

To the point. I've fired tracers from some of these weapons and never observed wobbeling or other erradic behaviour. However, since the ordnance is rotating from rills in the barrel in order to stabilise trajectory and improve precision there is a possibility that the smoke coming from the tracer burn will exhibit a spiral shape du to the turbulence behind the rotating bullet. This could be caught on film and still be invisible to the MK101 eyeball. I'm not sure about this but it's athought /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Regards HP

Buster_Dee
03-31-2006, 02:35 PM
I've always assumed the "wiggle" was simply because the guns are shaking the gun camera.

The wiggle looks cool to me, but I don't expect to see it unless cun cam footage is being modeled.

LStarosta
03-31-2006, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JG301_HP:
MK101 eyeball. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do those eyeballs come in MK103?


http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/784.gif

danjama
03-31-2006, 03:48 PM
Wow, its like being at the history museum....

Siwarrior
03-31-2006, 03:49 PM
lol its like..be4 my birth..............whoa

LStarosta
03-31-2006, 03:50 PM
http://www.t-shirtlogos.com/graphics/castlemelody/archaeologist.jpg

danjama
03-31-2006, 03:52 PM
Yeh i think we all like to do a bit of diggin, it can be fun, and the type of diggin i mean is fun in all weather http://forums.ubi.com/images/smilies/59.gif

VW-IceFire
03-31-2006, 03:58 PM
If you watch some of those videos with modern day machine guns firing tracer rounds (its the same basic round they used 60 years ago) they look like lasers to a camera that is in a fixed spot and not vibrating.

Our tracers are not correct in some ways and I think they can be improved. But the improvement will probably lead to quite a few saying that they look like lasers...which infact they sort of do...except that they "look like lasers" is a StarWars phenomenon and since StarWars space battles were based mostly on WWII air combat style (think about it) the comparison is actually backwards.

Scen
03-31-2006, 05:24 PM
Having shot many tracers in my life as a Marine I can assure you the rounds are less accurate than regular rounds.

In addition because they do burn uneven they "look" like they wobble a bit even if your shooting one at a time. I last fired some 5.56 tracer at about 300 meters they didn't really zig zag but they do move about visually. It's more to do with how it burns on the way down range.

Add in the zillion comment about the camera shaking during firing and that will add to the visual.

Scendore