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FW-Raptor
07-18-2004, 10:16 AM
Hi guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tell me all you aces out there!

What is better or what do you find more rewarding? Using the Cockpit or the no cockpit view?

Does the cockpit make you better? or

Is it better not to use the cockpit?

-Raptor-
Out

FW-Raptor
07-18-2004, 10:16 AM
Hi guys http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Tell me all you aces out there!

What is better or what do you find more rewarding? Using the Cockpit or the no cockpit view?

Does the cockpit make you better? or

Is it better not to use the cockpit?

-Raptor-
Out

Korolov
07-18-2004, 10:17 AM
Cockpit is da bomb - you can get a lot more information about how your plane is running. Of course you get less view to see, but being able to see good doesn't help you when someone is on your six and clobbering you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

http://www.mechmodels.com/fbstuff/klv_sigp38shark1a.jpg

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 10:27 AM
Not even a question.

Cockpit, whether the cockpit is well represented or NOT, MUST be on.

Users of the Wonder Woman view are arcadists who are simply ignoring certain REALITIES for gaming purposes, and to suit their "comfort level".

One should NEVER, EVER, EVAH use the Wonder Woman view.

http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/wonderwoman.gif

Owlsphone
07-18-2004, 10:28 AM
I fly both cockpit off and on. Sometimes it's fun to just mix it up and a relaxed server setting, but I must admit that there is no feeling like the satisfaction you get from sneaking up behind someone with cockpit on and letting them have it.

http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v251/Owlsphone/Sig.jpg
Vertically challenged since 1984.

PF_Coastie
07-18-2004, 10:40 AM
If you want to get in intense dogfights with a lot of kills going on and incredible deflection shots, then go No Cockpit. It is really fun to just go in and get a bunch of kills.

If you want to immerse yourself in a mission and wonder when someone is going to sneak up behind you and blow you away, then go In Cockpit. You can get some easy kills in cockpit and can get away easily sometimes.

Both are fun. Just depends on what you are in the mood for.

PF_Coastie

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jensenpark
07-18-2004, 10:44 AM
cockpit on...no other way to fly

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PF_Coastie
07-18-2004, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jensenpark:
cockpit on...no other way to fly

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure there is. Just 2 ways mentioned here. There is also a nearly infinite number of ways not mentioned. Thats the beauty of this game. Anyone can be happy and fly the way they want.

PF_Coastie

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VR_Ace_
07-18-2004, 11:08 AM
"Users of the Wonder Woman view are arcadists who are simply ignoring certain REALITIES for gaming purposes, and to suit their "comfort level"."


But....it isnt real and.......it is a game

Baltar
07-18-2004, 11:11 AM
Fly cockpit or else Siglr will throw you in an arcadist death camp http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

No cockpit is a good way to start, but adding it in later is both more immersive and lets you raise the bar a little--adds in a new challenge once you got the basics. Also you will likely find yourself flying on servers with cockpit on enforced, so you might as well get used to it at least.

But that's just my opinion. Mine or anyone else's shouldn't influence your decision. It's all about what you want to get out of the game.

Sienikeitto
07-18-2004, 12:20 PM
Both, depending on my mood http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 12:23 PM
It is a SIMULATION first, a game second.

Sure, it's all in your approach. Gamers fly Wonder Woman and have ready excuses for it... sim pilots fly with the cockpit on.

http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/wonderwoman.gif

Miss-Kitten
07-18-2004, 12:32 PM
Actually cockpit was a no brainer for me, since I came driving in from nascar, where too, i only drive with cockpit on.

Whether others do it or not, I don't really care - just as long as you're having fun *shrug*

If you want to play and pretend to being a pilot, then a cockpit is a must, if you like being a free bird, well by all means fly without.

I have to admit that although I fly with cockpit, I often used the F2 key when taking off, just to find my bearings. Luckily, with some minor adjustments I can do this now without needing it. So taking off was the only moment i would use an external view.

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PF_Coastie
07-18-2004, 12:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
It is a SIMULATION first, a game second.

Sure, it's all in your approach. Gamers fly Wonder Woman and have ready excuses for it... sim pilots fly with the cockpit on.

http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/wonderwoman.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmmm, Well this is the only PC game/simulation I play. I play both ways depending on my mood. So, does that make me a gamer or a simmer?

Personally, I think all options checked/or on is totally unrealistic and rediculous.

This isn't reall a sim anyway. We have no real cockpit and actual levers, dials and switches to touch. We only have a bunch of buttons within a fingers reach and a 2D screen to look at. So at best its a Virtual Simulation.

PF_Coastie

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XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 12:41 PM
I agree that it's a simulation. I agree that it has limits and shortcomings. It's far from perfect.

I further agree that "full switch" is NOT "full realism". But there are settings that better approach a pretty good approximation of realism.

You don't need to have a 100% manipulatable cockpit to be "realistic", any more than your stick has to look the same, your throtle has to look and operate the same, or whatever. So long as the operations you have to perform (in terms of pilot workload and attention) are somewhat similar, it's a decent simulation.

STILL, just because those things may be true, is no excuse to make a flat out WIDE-A** leap of logic that says flying without a cockpit around you, with all the visual impact that implies, is anything but a gamer's cop-out.

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2004, 12:44 PM
Right on Stiglr http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Interestingly, there are some "real life" pilots including military jetters over at teh sinhq who have posted that they fly FB with Cockpit Off. The reason is that No Pit FB lets them relax and get away from their day to day grind. Great for those who do the real thing, but for the lesser among us, FB is a way to pretend play at being up there in their slippers.

Granted, even real life WW2 Aces wanted to turn off their cockpits to increase their kill counts . But then pilot wishes are best ignored at times (like the Japanese pilots who refused the fast fighter ideas in 1930s http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif ). Noobs.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Alexander_Seil
07-18-2004, 12:58 PM
I say they should make Fw-189 flyable so everyone could have the best of both worlds http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 12:59 PM
That may be, but for me, flying this sim is plain FUN anyway. I don't need "light" versions of it, "just to relax with". Being able to sit in my PC den with my computer toys is relaxing and fun in and of itself.

For me, making it "stupider" and "less realistic" for convenience makes the whole enterprise seem much more like wasting time. That's what pinball and fantasy FPS's are for. At least, when approaching it as the SIMULATION it is, you can actually learn some things about history, about tactics, about physics.

DuxCorvan
07-18-2004, 01:11 PM
Well, don't kill me, but, since I have no TrackIR and peripheral vision in sims is lame, I'd like to fly cockpit on with those arrows of WW view helping me to have a tactical and situational reference. It's not the lack of view what disturbs me, but the inability to track freely with my own eyes both the enemy and my mates. Cockpit on is immersive and realistic, but not so realistic if we realize that, comparing it to real life, we're like donkeys with earmuffs, unable to look around without getting confused.

If those arrows would disappear at your six, to allow bouncing and out-of-the-sun attacks, I think they should be in 'cockpit on'.

Anyway, we're in this for fun, so just do it what you like most.

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

Xnomad
07-18-2004, 01:20 PM
I don't understand Cockpit off, I didn't do it when I was new to this game either. How can you pretend to be flying a Spitfire if you can't see it? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

So next time when you whine about "Oleg could we have this [enter plane name here] plane in the next patch" just pretend you are flying it in your cockpit off game. Apart from handling what's the difference to appreciate???

All that beauty and you just switch it off? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

I've tried cockpit off servers and I completely forgot that I was flying a plane however, what was fun was I blew everyone away in my Fw 190 A9 because I could line up deflection shots from under my feet. I did not for one minute feel like I was in a WWII plane like I do on FR servers, not one incy bit.

Although I can actually endorse the no cockpit view for Fw 190's as FB AEP doesn't really have an Fw 190 so you might as well turn that sorry excuse of a forward view off, but that's another story.......

EDIT: I just re-read this and it sounds like I don't like cockpit off people, I don't mean it like that I just don't understand you guys that's all http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

http://www.xnomad.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/sig.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2004, 01:23 PM
Dux use the mouse view. After all the offerings of Fancy View Software and Fancy View Gadgets, I still use plain old mouse view cos once you get good with it your left hand becomes your eyeballs and neck muscles (I always use left hand for mouse). I don't even need padlock cos my eyeballs--I mean mouse balls--are so uber trained.



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

DuxCorvan
07-18-2004, 01:33 PM
Agh, yes, but with throttle and all CEM controls, my left hand is rather busy yet... and my third free limb is not so well trained, yet... not so skilled with my balls... my eyeballs, you know. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

XyZspineZyX
07-18-2004, 01:40 PM
Xnomad wrote:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've tried cockpit off servers and I completely forgot that I was flying a plane however, what was fun was I blew everyone away in my Fw 190 A9 because I could line up deflection shots from under my feet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Give that man a cigar. This is exactly why Wonder Women love their no cockpit view. It's a handy dandy gunnery aid, and allows them to pull off spray-and-pray face shots that they would NEVER be able to pull off in a plane with a realistic view. This is reason #1 why I never set foot in a WonderWoman server: I have to give away my situational awareness skills to some turn n burn noobs who don't want to do the *work* to get on somebody's six before they hose away with the guns. They just turn and turn and hit with "impossible" snapshots made easy by the old WonderWoman crutch.

Put those guys in a cockpit on server and watch them; their gunnery abilities plummet magically and suddenly they can't find *anything* to spray at. Wonder why that is? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-18-2004, 01:55 PM
mmm, Dux I am going to try mapping throttle + and - to my mouse buttons. I have my trim on the mouse slid...wheel.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

VMF513_Sandman
07-18-2004, 08:20 PM
when i first got fb, i tryed the ww view like cfs2. problem was, it seemed too disorenting that way. in cockpit, u have a better sense of actual 3d view u would in a actual plane. true, deflections are alot easier in ww, but if u really want to be better, fly in cockpit. flying cockpit makes u wait until u can actually make the shots count instead of spray-n-pray. also makes bombing better; when the target just goes under the nose, pickle, and bombs will hit where u want them. couldnt do that in ww. sight 'picture' was way off.

50 caliber's do have rather long range...it just takes a few to get there. fights were won by tactics and some guesswork. the worst thing u could do is start flying ww. some of the best servers have cockpit on. u'll see if ur getting close to overheating ur engine if u can see the gauges. in some planes, engines will seize in a heartbeat from an overheat. bad idea in a fight. flying formations in cockpit is alot of fun also. very realistic.

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Nanuk66
07-19-2004, 06:03 AM
I think by the looks of things:

If u wanna be uber 1337, pat yourself on the back, deluding yourself that you are actually flying a real WW2 aircraft in wartime, fly around for ages looking for a fight, creep on that non banking n00b for the 3 sec kill, get a stiff neck and generally think that your better and getting more out this sim than people with no cockpit on, then by all means fly Cockpit on servers.

If you dont have the time to be searching the virtual skies as you have other things to do in real life, you enjoy the graphics, you wanna watch that plane you hit explode, you dont wanna be constantly on 'alert', your not bothered about how good the cockpits of various planes look, or as the little kiddy stiglr put are 'stupider' (maybe meaning you lack intelligence?)than the less stupid cockpit-on pilots then you should fly 'wonder woman' view. But as someone else posted you may not even know wot plane your flying in!! um....yeh...if that aint a good reason i dont know wot is....lol!

Are the schools out atm or wot??

Fly on all servers with different options and see in which one you have the most fun in.

If that happens to be cockpit on, then before long you may even answer some of these posts yourself, and be posting along the lines of 'wonder woman n00bs', 'its just totally unrealistic any other way', 'its the only way to be truely immersed in the sim' (like there is NO other way) and 'its just totally arcade any other way' or you'll be like the more mature intelligent 'cockpit-on' posters like there is a few in this thread who'll say have fun no matter which one you choose - try both and see wot suits.

If not that you'll become a no-cockpit only flyer in which u'll have no one patting you on the back for being Mr 'realism' and you'll end up as a silent majority on these boards feeling intimidated by teenagers that think that they are great and better than you because they have 50% of their screen covered by a 'virtual cockpit' which restricts their view even MORE than it would in real life. Go figure.

I play on both btw, but due to having interesting things to do in real life i tend to stick with wonder woman servers as i wanna get quick fights and not be scanning my moniter with squinted eyes try to pick out a plane that after 10 mins i realise is actually a small thunderfly bug thats cruising around on my screen lapping up the static electricity.

GL & ~S~

-----------------------------
English lesson 101:
The word is 'Lose' not 'Loose'. e.g.
That IL2 is gonna lose the fight against that 109.
That IL2's wing looks loose, its gonna fall off.
If i dive too vertically i will lose my wing. k thx.
------------------------------

Holycannoli
07-19-2004, 06:27 AM
I'm still new to this sim, but I never, ever use any F1 view but cockpit. I do use F2 to take off usually cuz I can't see any part of the runway http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Those other views (you guys call it ww view?) are like cheating. Seriously. I don't even know why they're available.

So, if I join cockpit-only servers nobody can use that ww view? What about the outside views like F2, F3 and F8? I've been wondering why everyone seems so great on the servers without cockpit-only http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif They may not actually be cheating, but it's damned close.

patch_adams
07-19-2004, 06:49 AM
It is my understanding that the best pilots fly with a cockpit.

Bearcat99
07-19-2004, 07:04 AM
I like both depending on my mood and the server. Im not going to go exclusively closed pit in an open pit server once the action starts. I like having the option. Sometimes I turn off the HUDLOG and the speedbar and all icons and stay in the pit using the magnetic compass for navigation. Thats what I like about this sim.. it is highly scalable. One thing is for sure.. I am convinced that my way of flying is the only way to fly... for me. Others can do waht suits them... no sweat off my nose.

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ImpStarDuece
07-19-2004, 07:25 AM
I started this sim (my first, yay) as a cockpit off, no stalls noob. Since then i have graduated to stalls, spins, CEM and finally cockpits off. Now i just have to get rid of those pesky icons http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As the level of complexity increased my enjoyment of this way of life, um i mean sim, incresasd exponentially. Cockpits on is like a whole other game going on. You now have to deal with blind spots, cockpit instrumentation, bars obstructing vision and other stuff that just immerses you in the sim so much more.

Also i think flying with cockpits on shows respect to the modelers who have taken the time and effort to build virtual cockpits that are as close to real life as they can humanly make them. Look at the 110, J8a, 262 and the P-38 these are amazing works of art as well as damned fine virtual cockpits.

Fly with pits on i say. It made IL2 a MUCH more enjoyable experiance for me, as well as a greater challenge and a more immersive exercise in fun. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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TgD Thunderbolt56
07-19-2004, 09:06 AM
I have NEVER flown in WW view...in any sim that I've owned (since 1992). I can't imagine flying with "Cockpit off". That doesn't make me better than anyone, it's just my preference.

Like Stiglr, I don't need to "relax" my settings to relax. Sitting in my little pit and looking at my computer try to render a world that I've always been intrigued by (and by proxy allows me to live somewhat vicariously) is quite relaxing. Sure there are times when I get a little upset and others where I'm so "into it" that I'm breaking a sweat, but it's still relaxing.

My Wife says she wishes I didn't fly so much, but at the same time says to "go fly for awhile" if she thinks I'm a little uptight.

When I do, it'll be "cockpit on" for me thanks.

TB

Indianer.
07-19-2004, 09:15 AM
I cant think of anything worse than flying in WW view. I tried it when i first got the origional IL2 and hated it. Like Thunderbolt56 i too have never used WW. I also fly full real but trying to find a server with those settings is almost impossible as most have Crimson Skies settings.

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christopher65
07-19-2004, 09:34 AM
I must be one of the few who find the wonder woman view harder than the cockpit view!!!!!!Makes me feel sick when pulling some moves and harder to keep track on your planes attitude etc!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 09:40 AM
I used to fly with cockpit on, and have no problems doing so, but I've switched to cockpit off most of the time as of late.

I'd say my main reason is frame rate. I'm currently stuck on a p3 866, and the cockpit models, especially on the newer planes, cause quite a noticable performance hit.

Another reason is the limits of current display technology. In real life, binocular, and peripheral vision would make the view from the cockpit orders of magnitude less obstructive.

I also hate not having the option of moving your viewpoint around in the virtual pit.

All of this kind of combines to make the cockpit view a sort of double-edged sword for me, as far as realism and immersion goes. And in the end, frame rate tips the scales to the no cockpit side.

Just wish there was an option for getting rid of those arrows.

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 09:42 AM
Also, view over the nose is another big thing. as it's my belief that in most of the aircraft modelled in the game, the pilot had the ability to look over the nose somewhat, even if it meant not being able to look through the sight at the same time.

Kind of like the me-262 non-gunsight view, but maybe a bit less exaggerated.

I absolutely loathe having your eyes nailed down in place, and immobile in the virtual pit.

hughlb2
07-19-2004, 09:46 AM
I always fly with cockpit-on. For me, no-cockpit shatters the immersion.

Though I would like to ask what "Wonder Woman" view encompasses - Is it just no cockpit or does it also include the external views? I do fly with external views, I really like looking at what i'm flyinghttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But if and when I go online, I would happily fly with only cockpit view and no externals, for me this still gives the most fun and satisfaction during combat.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 09:49 AM
I agree with a lot of what Fissure says about the restrictiveness of the cockpit view, but I find it extremely "convenient" and "disingenuous" that the Wonder Woman Knitting Club of [add Gov. Schwarzenegger accent here]girlie men[/accent] feel that the way to explain thier "preference" is to point out that the cockpit views aren't perfect (and what in this sim IS?) and just use that as an excuse to just pretend the cockpit doesn't exist, and that visibility simply wasn't a factor in aerial combat.

Utter garbage: they do it to make things easier on themselves, period, end of story. They cloak it under "relaxation" and "enjoyment", and "personal preference" (and simper and whine that when they're exposed for it, they're being picked on and set upon, oh, squish, squish) but what it is is, they want to be able to easily make 10 kills per minute with no effort, no needing to learn about tactics, energy management, situational awareness, none of that. They just wanna be John Wayne or Tom Cruise, and they want it NOW.

Typical, lo-fi, gamer mentality.

SeaFireLIV
07-19-2004, 09:53 AM
Not much to say here except I agree that wonder women view is for children who don`t take their flying even slightly seriously, put them on a cockpit only server and they die- rapidly, etc, etc. Yes, I know I`m agreeing with Stiglr but I cannot disagree with the truth.

Personally, WW should be banned - MAKE people LEARN to fly more like how it was. But now I become overzealous and I really don`t like banning things, so let`s forget that last bit.... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

SeaFireLIV...

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horseback
07-19-2004, 10:04 AM
I fly almost exclusively offline, and since the AI can see through solid objects(if you don't believe me, try flying into a cloud to escape one, or vary your convergence and note when the lone AI plane you're sneaking up on from behind and below starts gyrating around), I have no moral or immersion issues with using the Wonder Woman view, or, for that matter, disabling blackouts & redouts.

That said, I find the game more 'forgiving' of shots taken with cockpit on, and generally try to take advantage of that.

I do like to fly to and from the target area with cockpit on, but since I'm essentially playing this with a tunnelvisioned, one-eyed, weightless (no seat-of-the-pants or inner ear inputs)perspective, and my opponents are under no such limitations, I will change views as I please with a perfectly clear conscience.

If I were playing human opponents, I would expect to share the same limitations they have; that's part of the contract you agree to when you join in a game with rules. But I make no judgements about the character, intelligence, or manhood of people who agree to play the game differently in the privacy of their own servers/homes/offices.

People who do make judgements have their own security issues.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

alitomdq
07-19-2004, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
That may be, but for me, flying this sim is plain FUN anyway. I don't need "light" versions of it, "just to relax with". Being able to sit in my PC den with my computer toys is relaxing and fun in and of itself.

For me, making it "stupider" and "less realistic" for convenience makes the whole enterprise seem much more like wasting time. That's what pinball and fantasy FPS's are for. At least, when approaching it as the SIMULATION it is, you can actually learn some things about history, about tactics, about physics.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldnâ´t say it better. Totally agree with you.
Many of us fly FB because we want more than a simple fun moment.
Anyway, that depends on the user, and finally we all have the choice to not to fly in DF servers with cockpit off.

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 10:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I agree with a lot of what Fissure says about the restrictiveness of the cockpit view, but I find it extremely "convenient" and "disingenuous" that the Wonder Woman Knitting Club of [add Gov. Schwarzenegger accent here]girlie men[/accent] feel that the way to explain thier "preference" is to point out that the cockpit views aren't perfect (and what in this sim IS?) and just use that as an excuse to just pretend the cockpit doesn't exist, and that visibility simply wasn't a factor in aerial combat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know, man. I find that having to view the world through a monitor is restrictive enough on it's own -- way more restrictive than any cockpit could be in real life.

You admit the cockpit view isn't perfect, but you somehow come to the conclusion that those problems and shortcomings shouldn't be valid reasons for turning off the pit -- why not?

The fact of the matter is that in real life, the entire cockpit would be relegated to the immediate peripheral view when looking at the skies around the aircraft, and in a very real way, would be practically invisible to the pilot's brain (excepting the view directly down, of course).

I personally think some of you are taking your ww2 make-believe a bit too far by thinking so highly of the game's cockpit view and its absolute essentiality when it comes to realism. Sure, it's pretty, and the instruments are useful, but in many very real ways it's even less realistic than the so-called wonder woman view.

Just because something is harder, more obscuring, doesn't make it more true to life.

PS. Stig, the "standards" you hold your fellow simmers to is a bit over the top and laughable.

TheEngine88
07-19-2004, 10:32 AM
I personally prefer cockpit on, for obvious immersion reasons.

What I find laughable is the smug, self-important, self-styles "SIM enthusiasts" who berate others who have a different style of play as somehow beneath them, but who are more than willing to hit refly everytime their virtual pilots dies in a fiery crash.

I mean, if you are willing to utilise the unlimited lives the game offers you, instead of having a single virtual "life", then who are you to point the finger?

"Pain Fades, Glory lasts forever, Chicks dig scars."

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 10:37 AM
Here's another "low fi gamer copout".

The old, "well if it was TOTALLY real, you'd have to erase the sim from your hard drive after you died the very first time". Or the equally stupid, "If you get shot in the game, take out a weapon and shoot yourself in front of your PC" exaggeration.

Complete lack of grasp of any of the principles of simulation. The ability to simulate things over and over and explore them through endless #s of virtual lives is not a "ease of use" feature. It's integral to simulation period.

Pretending there are no cockpits, engines in front of you, canopy bars *while* you fly... that's something a bit different.

yarbles67
07-19-2004, 10:38 AM
It's simple: Whatever your gut tells ya. Flying without it off, I don't fee like I'm flying a WWII plane. I might as well be playing Decent or a Tie Fighter. PUt on the cockpit - man, feels much more believable. For get all the rocket scientists that have debated which view is actually more 'real', it's about feel. Go with the gut - be your own boss.

Yum_Yum
07-19-2004, 10:40 AM
Hello http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Play with any settings you want, change them as often as you want, play where you want with who you want, Join a Squad or stay on your own, It's your game so you choose http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

TheEngine88
07-19-2004, 10:43 AM
stiglr-

You self-important pompousness is almost endearing...


Almost.

"Pain Fades, Glory lasts forever, Chicks dig scars."

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 10:46 AM
Fissure asks:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You admit the cockpit view isn't perfect, but you somehow come to the conclusion that those problems and shortcomings shouldn't be valid reasons for turning off the pit -- why not?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's a matter of degrees. We can (and do) debate until the cows come home how best to simulate a cockpit view, with thick/thin canopy bars, semi-transparency, whatever... but the fact of the matter is, canopy braces and such WERE there, they WERE a factor in visibility, and they WERE a factor in air combat. To simply pretend they weren't is going way, WAY off the mark. Any rational adult can see that...if they "choose" to.

Funny how people say that because someone points out the reason why they think the sim should be played as realistically as possible (and there are multiple interpretations of what constitutes realistic, not just MY pet settings), the implication is that they're being made out to be "less of a person". That's not what I'm saying.

Am I saying they're being lazy, disingenuous, and simply taking the easy road for convenience as sim players? Yes. But I'm not saying they're "bad people". It's not an indictment of their real life or the type of people they are. Stick to the topic, people.

Also, I'm not stating that they don't have the choice. That point is moot, since they can fly where they want to, and flip the feature switches anyway they want to. That point is not debatable at all.

We're merely exchanging opinions, is all.

VOL_Hans
07-19-2004, 10:47 AM
I fly with the cockpit view on about 99% of the time. The other 1% being when I need to shoot deflection in the 190 without the bar in the way, or when the uber 88mm cannon style muzzle blasts on the 110 with the Mk-108 slow my FPS down too much.

http://www.altitude.us/missions/The%20Volunteers/hanssig.jpg

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 10:50 AM
To try to clarify, what I'm saying is that, in real life, a pit -- and I'm talking the tub you sit in, not the cockpit bars (as having two eyes lets you see passed these, in most cases) -- would obstruct mostly your peripheral view.

This is all well and good, but in this game we don't have peripheral vision! The meager 90 degree "wide-angle" view is hardly enough to simulate this -- and that's without a cockpit!

Slap the virtual cockpit on top of those 90 degrees, and we end up with a small pittance of that viewable area. It's just bollocks.

Now I can understand that the arrows in non-cockpit view would ruin any online surprises, and heck, even the unobstructed view directly astern would botch up a good bounce. But the price of the cockpit view we pay in sheer viewable area is just too insane to justify it for me. Especially considering the fact that I barely ever play online due to my slow machine.

So, while you might say that pilots in real life didn't have the ability to see through their ***, unobstructed -- I'd say to you that, yeah you're right, but they didn't strap a set of toilet paper tubes to their eyes, either.

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 10:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>but the fact of the matter is, canopy braces and such WERE there, they WERE a factor in visibility, and they WERE a factor in air combat.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Haha, but how much of a factor were they really, campared to, say, the tunnel vision we all suffer from just by viewign things through a monitor (let alone a virtual pit within said monitor).

I think you're having a bath.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 11:15 AM
They were a GREAT problem, and you can see it in the development of planes throughout the war and after.

There is a REASON why P-51 pilots loved the D models' bubble canopies, much more than the P-40 style pit of the -A, -B and -C models.

There is a REASON why the P-47D likewise was preferred over the -Cs. Yes, part of it was that big paddle prop, but the canopy was probably on par in popularity.

There is also a reason that today's jets have bubble offices that sit way up and above their fuselages. VISIBILITY.

It's key. Lose sight, lose the fight is an axiom that is popular in piloting circles, both real and simulated.

So, whether we have to do more or less to deal with these issues in the sim, it is a factor to be dealt with.

The gunnery issue is another real big part of this. Only one pilot in the entire war, H.J. Marseille of JG27 in North Africa, could consistently pull off "below the nose" shots; he was famed and revered for this uncanny ability, not to mention that he averaged something like 7 - 9 bullets per kill ( http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) That's MG and cannon. That comes out to a tap of the button and down the enemy went, on AVERAGE. With cockpit off, any idiot and his dog can do this kind of shooting. It totally cheapens gunnery skill.

Just saying, "hell with it, I'll switch the cockpit off", is along the same lines as "No stalls", "invulnerability" or "no engine management/overheating". You're just pretending the problem doesn't exist so you don't have to deal with it. You can't deny that.

Either you don't care (a typical gamer copout), or you care to (mis)use the benefits of "godlike" vision. It's really that simple if you're honest with yourself.

crazyivan1970
07-19-2004, 11:20 AM
Hi Stigler http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Brain32
07-19-2004, 11:35 AM
I can't even consider flying without cockpit...

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 12:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is a REASON why P-51 pilots loved the D models' bubble canopies, much more than the P-40 style pit of the -A, -B and -C models.

There is a REASON why the P-47D likewise was preferred over the -Cs. Yes, part of it was that big paddle prop, but the canopy was probably on par in popularity.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I'd wager the reason was not so much the lack of cockpit bars, as it was improved rearward visibility.

I was talking about braces, struts, and bars specifically, and how their affect on vision was negligable compared to the field of view in game. I had already acknowledged the fact that seeing dead six unobstructed is a big unrealistic advantage, and shortcoming of the no cockpit view.

But I think the lack of realism in that regard vs. the overall lack of viewing area with the cockpit enabled isn't enough to justify flying with blinders on.

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 12:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The gunnery issue is another real big part of this. Only one pilot in the entire war, H.J. Marseille of JG27 in North Africa, could consistently pull off "below the nose" shots; he was famed and revered for this uncanny ability, not to mention that he averaged something like 7 - 9 bullets per kill ( ) That's MG and cannon. That comes out to a tap of the button and down the enemy went, on AVERAGE. With cockpit off, any idiot and his dog can do this kind of shooting. It totally cheapens gunnery skill.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your example of Marseille is quite telling, because he actually used the nose of his aircraft as a reference to place his shots. This is absolutely, and unrealistically impossble in il2.

Unless of course, you're flying the me262, with the nicely modelled non-gunsight view in the cockpit. You can see over the nose quite well in that, and the difference between the gunsight, and non-gunsight view in the 262 illustrates the exact disparity in (or plain lack of) viewing angles that I'm talking about for the cockpit views in IL2.

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 12:14 PM
Certainly you can do this. It's just knowing where your nose IS, in relation to the rest of the aircraft. You don't have to see it to know where it is. You have to "imagine" it.

I use the same technique to make shots like that with the 30mm gun. I can "time" a shot when a bogie passes close by, seems to disappear behind my control panel and if I do it right, I'm greeted with a smoking, flaming or disintegrating plane cartwheeling out the other side.

I'm not nearly as proficient with this shot as Marseille was, but then, neither was anybody.

And AFissure (what an ugly,disgusting handle...), you're simply WRONG. Not only did these later bubble canopy planes offer a better rear view, they minimized the entire "birdcage" arrangement you see on P-40s, Buffalos, the first Corsairs, and many other earlier war planes. The entire affair was a tradeoff between structural integrity for the canopy and pilot visibility. As better, stronger canopy glass and designs emerged, the braces went away, so the pilot could SEE better. Using the American design philosophy, with as much armor as possible, they'd have made the canopy full metal IF they could have figured a way to see out of it.

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Certainly you can do this. It's just knowing where your nose IS, in relation to the rest of the aircraft. You don't have to see it to know where it is. You have to "imagine" it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're missing the point. Marseille didn't have to imagine anything. He could see his nose, and he could see the enemy aircraft pass under it. That was, in fact, the cue he used to fire.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I use the same technique to make shots like that with the 30mm gun. I can "time" a shot when a bogie passes close by, seems to disappear behind my control panel and if I do it right, I'm greeted with a smoking, flaming or disintegrating plane cartwheeling out the other side.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's great. I can do that, too. But marseille didn't use his control panel as reference, he used the nose of his aircraft.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And AFissure (what an ugly,disgusting handle...), you're simply WRONG. Not only did these later bubble canopy planes offer a better rear view, they minimized the entire "birdcage" arrangement you see on P-40s, Buffalos, the first Corsairs, and many other earlier war planes. The entire affair was a tradeoff between structural integrity for the canopy and pilot visibility. As better, stronger canopy glass and designs emerged, the braces went away, so the pilot could SEE better. Using the American design philosophy, with as much armor as possible, they'd have made the canopy full metal IF they could have figured a way to see out of it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not completely daft, thank you. I realize that the move to bubble canopies also eliminated canopy braces. My original intention in bringing up braces in the first place was to say they they aren't as obstructive in real life as they are in the game, because real people have stereoscopic vision.

You took this as me saying that braces don't matter (when I know they do, I was just saying they don't matter AS much in real life), and then went on to use the evolution of bubble canopies to prove a point that wasn't being contested.

You said pilots prefered the new bubbles canopies. Well, no ****. But then you implied it was mainly because it got rid of the braces. I simply disagreed and said it was probably because of the improved rearward view, and had little to do with braces in comparison.

Simple enough, I think. Try reading what I say next time.

KarayaEine
07-19-2004, 12:52 PM
I was just at Pensacola at the naval Aviation Museum and they had an area where flight sims were being used to train new cadets. They were using MS FS2004 (yeah, booo hisss! )anyway they train with NO cockpit view. I asked them why and they told me it represents a more realistic view than having all the canopy framing in the way. Due to the limitations of trying to display 2D images and that our eyes are actually binocular in nature so as to limit pillars and canopy posts as almost nonexistant it does their students much better not to have these items in the FOV since our brain will tend to remove these things in real life.

I'v always flown with the cockpit view off anyway. I like it much better. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Johann

Horrido!
"We need more ammo!"
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid123/pf6134ba44807ec5fa171e4f94f32e299/f81fa8b5.jpg

mucker
07-19-2004, 12:59 PM
Nicely presented Karaya!

I fly whatever suits me at the moment...the idea is to have fun! Of course, you have no choice if you fly on a hosted server. Absolutely, no computer game/monitor can simulate sitting in a real cockpit. The correct peripheral vision with outstanding resolution simply cannot be achieved on a personal computer with todays technology. Head/body movement is also problematic with a PC game. When dogfighting in FB, I enjoy seeing the damage I inflict on an enemy aircraft (when I do get a chance to get some shots off). In full real you simply can't display the enemy aircraft to view your result, and that takes away alot of the fun for me. This may be true to a real life experience, but not so fun (for me) in a computer game. I do like the servers that have cockpit only plus outside views...those are the most fun to me. I have fun in both modes, but each have their annoyances.....

mucker

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 01:03 PM
Exactly what I'm talking about, Karaya.

Another story I recall is of the real life fighter pilots over at SimHQ explaining how they prefered the no-cockpit view because the virtual cockpit was just too unrealistically obstructive.

Granted, I think they flew F16s (with superb views from the cockpits), but I maintain that they had a good grasp of the limitations of display technology and their reasons for chosing not to use the pit view.

AnalFissure
07-19-2004, 01:10 PM
Just to add...

I'd probably use the cockpit view all the time if it wasn't for my poor system performance. I like the artwork a lot, and I like feeling like I'm in the actual plane, even if I can't see out of it for ****.

And of course, to play online, all players should be on an equal playing field. It's just a shame that that playing field happens to be so unrealistically obstructive, myopic, and tunnel vision prone.

eXtra_Corrosiv
07-19-2004, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Not even a question.

Cockpit, whether the cockpit is well represented or NOT, MUST be on.

Users of the Wonder Woman view are arcadists who are simply ignoring certain REALITIES for gaming purposes, and to suit their "comfort level".

One should NEVER, EVER, EVAH use the Wonder Woman view.

http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/wonderwoman.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree

Athlon 3200+ / 2x512 corsair c2pt 3200LL / radeon X800 Pro / Audigy 2 ZS / WinXP / Saitek X45

TooCooL34
07-19-2004, 01:25 PM
Funny.
All the real pilots in our squad never complain about cockpit and just enjoy the way it is.
I got some flying experience also but find not much to complain.

And when this debate pops up every 2 months, cockpit whiners always quote in end, "A real pilot said.. cockpit off was more realistic.. so cockpit off is more realistic."
Hey, don't you have guts? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Go enjoy Aces High, they provide ultra-thin cockpit bars based on your arguments.

But it's FB. different concept simulation.
We prefer correct and beautiful cockpit and willing to overcome some minor restriction.

It's not that a big problem as you think, ok? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

TgD Thunderbolt56
07-19-2004, 01:29 PM
This can and has been argued since day one. I think discussion and debate are both healthy and necessary in the evolution of anything we hold important to us. The bottom line, IMO, is that the limitation of 2 dimensional screens rendering 3 dimensional images is quite limiting. Regardless, I prefer to have the instrumentsin view and look around the window straps.

I was never a fighter pilot, but have flown my share mostly in 4 seat Cessna 172's and let me tell you that as an average sized male (5' 10"), the view out of the cockpit is nothing like wonderwoman view. I don't have a nice, state-of-the-art bubble canopy like an F-16. I have a propeller in my face and a somewhat spartan, vertical instrument panel in front of me. In order to see anything around the nose of my plane I need to sit way up and make a concerted effort.

Again I say...Cockpit on for me. The good part is, in this sim, you have the ability and availability to choose what you prefer and if your preferences aren't available, host your own game...period.

TB

http://www.greatergreen.com/il2

yarbles67
07-19-2004, 01:37 PM
I don't understand what you're saying regarding binocular vision. By your statement below, canopy beams in my car would become "nonexistant" as I look around before making a lane change. That's not the case. The bastards are as solid and obstructive as the beams depicted in the game. The only way to avoid the obstruction is to actually move my head and look around them - I can't use my xray vision to look through them. Il2:FB sorts has the ability to simulate this with the shift-f1 combo. Though I believe folks should fly the game the way the want - of the two methods that seem the most realistic, I would have to say the cockpit-on view is only because it seems most like my every day driving experience. To each his own. All I know is that when I fly in the no-cockpit view (wonder woman bubble), I'm a terror in the skies racking up kills like there's no tomorrow. Activate the view, I loose planes, can't hit **** and pray I can get back to base without getting bounce. The view completely changes the dyamic of the game and just seems more realistic. Of these two experiences, I would have to say the later (me getting kill, rarely shooting planes down, etc..) is the more real becaue I know I"m no ace but remove the cockpit - I'm a hard core killa in the skies. That's all the clue I need to tell what method is the more real http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know I suck wang.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KarayaEine:
I was just at Pensacola at the naval Aviation Museum and they had an area where flight sims were being used to train new cadets. They were using MS FS2004 (yeah, booo hisss! )anyway they train with NO cockpit view. I asked them why and they told me it represents a more realistic view than having all the canopy framing in the way. Due to the limitations of trying to display 2D images and that our eyes are actually binocular in nature so as to limit pillars and canopy posts as almost nonexistant it does their students much better not to have these items in the FOV since our brain will tend to remove these things in real life.

I'v always flown with the cockpit view off anyway. I like it much better. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

Johann

Horrido!
"We need more ammo!"
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid123/pf6134ba44807ec5fa171e4f94f32e299/f81fa8b5.jpg
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 01:50 PM
I wonder, all of you cockpit on fans:

Do you, in your mind's eye ever "relive a combat" and notice that in your memory, the cockpit braces and obstructions "don't seem to be there", the same way as when you drive a car, and stop noticing the hood in front of you and the forward roof bracing? I sure do.

Even though it's not the exact same, your eye in the sim focuses outward, and you stop noticing the braces so much. And if a dot is obstructed, you simple roll a few degrees to see better.

Odranoel1
07-19-2004, 03:22 PM
Last week end I flew a real plane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
It had a huge engine hood and forward view was err. limited! However, it was perfectly OK - unlike the frustration I feel when sitting in front of my screen with the cockpit of a FW 190 clogging 90% of my FOV with no way to move sideways to check what's behind the cockpit frame. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
FB Cockpits are lovely to look at ( I can examine details for hours), but "cockpit on" is by no means "full real". Just "hardest".
I think cockpit off is a closer feeling to real flying in that you feel much less of the restriction to a very narrow forward tunnel.

Once we have a multi-monitor option, I will definitely go cockpit on. For now, I prefer to fly cockpit off most of the time

S all (regardless of cockpit religion) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SeaFireLIV
07-19-2004, 03:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I wonder, all of you cockpit on fans:

Do you, in your mind's eye ever "relive a combat" and notice that in your memory, the cockpit braces and obstructions "don't seem to be there", the same way as when you drive a car, and stop noticing the hood in front of you and the forward roof bracing? I sure do.

Even though it's not the exact same, your eye in the sim focuses outward, and you stop noticing the braces so much. And if a dot is obstructed, you simple roll a few degrees to see better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sometimes, Stigler, among some of your less agreeable views, you actually make great sense. Yes, when I think back to a battle, I never think about the bars being in the way.
The thoughts will be of the combat, following and chasing the bandit almost as if the whole cockpit was not there!

But bars DO get in the way, as in reality, we learn to work beyond that, even in a moniter limited flight-sim. It`s an excellent point you make and may help WW flyers realise that Cockpit on does not mean less enjoyment.

Ok, Stiglr, time you said something I don`t agree with - that`ll be in another thread soon, I hope!

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/Yakgirlgo.jpg
Time to Escape!

Want to see more? go here: http://seafire.dreyermachine.com/
(Fantasy sections for mature viewers only).

AFJ_Locust
07-19-2004, 03:37 PM
Depends on your patients level & how good your eyes are and weather or not you can read.

Most of the GOOD CP servers have detailed missions that include JABO & to win the map you must do the mission and you must have teamwork . To make that happen everyone MUST read the brief & preform there JOB, sometimes flying CP is the absolute BEST, other times when the people that are flying don't have a clue of the mission cause they don't read the brief it can be frustrating as hell & make you just wanna leave. Or strangle the cr@p out of someone.

In the GOOD OP Servers its a Frag fest plenty of fast action, no brief to read, no mission to accomplish just df like mad dogs in a never ending whirl & twirl furball (BnZ the Whirl & twirl) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif Al tho theres a few OP servers out there that run FBD with some pretty good missions, so u might bump into one of those there lots of fun too, all in all either way is FUN There are plenty of elitist here who bash OP, the funny thing is Ill smoke there bunz in CP because what they don't understand is that flying OP gives you skills to apply to CP that help allot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif don't get me wrong theres tons of great CP & OP pilots I just get sick of the Elitist attitude about OP games vs CP games.

Media Assassinz!!!

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

AFJ_Locust
07-19-2004, 03:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
I wonder, all of you cockpit on fans:

Do you, in your mind's eye ever "relive a combat" and notice that in your memory, the cockpit braces and obstructions "don't seem to be there", the same way as when you drive a car, and stop noticing the hood in front of you and the forward roof bracing? I sure do.

Even though it's not the exact same, your eye in the sim focuses outward, and you stop noticing the braces so much. And if a dot is obstructed, you simple roll a few degrees to see better.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes in most planes BUT not in the FW I alwayes rember how many shots didnt get lined up because of thoes 4 inch thick bars that are alwayes in the way http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/cry.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

Timex62
07-19-2004, 04:00 PM
Am I mistaken or is this discussion concerning online play? My rig is so low end I don't even consider online fighting. Offline I can't even see an enemy approaching till he's very near to lighting me up. One day when I can compete online it will be a delight to go cockpit on against human adversaries but for now against AI, with all their abilities, I don't stand a chance without WW.

Close to the Edge

Holycannoli
07-19-2004, 04:18 PM
Well, Karaya, I would figure that being able to do well with cockpit view and the limited 2D/peripheral vision would mean a cadet would be that much better when he/she moved on to a real plane.

I agree that the lack of peripheral vision and the extremely limited angle of view isn't realistic at all. But I also think the fact that I don't speak Russian or German makes the radio chatter in this game equally unrealistic. Flying a campaign as a Russian pilot and hearing a foreign language that's basically just gibberish to me can't be considered real. I'd be able to understand the language at the very least.

(one thing I love about Lock On-turn off native betty and you hear your own language, with a relevent accent to retain immersion)

I also can't wait for the day when someone develops a helmet that gives true 3D AND peripheral vision in a sim! You know, a curved monitor inside a helmet stretching ear to ear and chin to forehead, with software coded to take advantage of...can't be all that far off the way technology is advancing. Then I wouldn't have to use that TrackIR I so desperately need to be competitive with cockpit on! (lose sight, lose the fight totally applies to me and my horrible situational awareness with the hatswitch! I lose sight all the time, in fact I'm great at it!)

AFJ_Locust
07-19-2004, 04:22 PM
I love your helmet idea !!!

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/new1_1.jpg

http://fighterjocks.net//

patch_adams
07-19-2004, 04:46 PM
How do you turn off the cockpit?

XyZspineZyX
07-19-2004, 05:13 PM
Move along Patch, nothing to see here....

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Doc_Hollydayz
07-19-2004, 05:22 PM
Cockpit on unless there is really bad weather and I cant see which way is up or down. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif
Oh and also in ground attack sometimes its usefull to be able to see what you are supposed to be attacking before it passes under the plane.

Cant criticise people for flying without cockpit as there are some limitations to the game that mean you need to make it easier for yourself or else its just no FUN, and that's what its all about.

"Smoke me a kipper, I'll be back for breakfast"

p1ngu666
07-19-2004, 05:24 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif
best post by stiglr EVER.


http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gifctrl+F1 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif

im SUCH a bad man http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Holycannoli
07-19-2004, 05:31 PM
You've never thought of something like that before AFJ? I have lots of times, not that I can ever build one...but I can dream!

GT182
07-19-2004, 07:03 PM
Holycannoli, I've said the same right along..."Virtual Gaming". No monitor, just a helmet with a screen in front of your face. Able to pan as you would be able to see in real life. Hopefully someday they will build it.

Actually I found a site on the net 3 years ago that had what they called a "Virtual Helmet" for pc gaming to sell, gameport connection if I remember right. Trouble was it was a leftover link and the company no longer existed. At least I couldn't contact them to make and order. I tried 3 or 4 times but it was a no-go. So hopefully someone will try making them again.

Cockpit view is a no brainer IMHO. To make it even better use a Tracker IR 2 or 3. It's as close to the real thing as you can get. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"GT182" / "Stab/JG51_vonSpinmeister"
www.bombs-away.net/forums (http://www.bombs-away.net/forums)
"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

LeChuck59
07-19-2004, 08:27 PM
Take away the cockpit and you might as well be playing a space sim. Such games are enjoyable in their own right, but that's not the experience I want out of IL2.

Cockpit on please.

Holycannoli
07-19-2004, 08:33 PM
TrackIR is as close as I can get...for now http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm pretty good at predicting the future (not a psychic thing AFAIK just uncanny accuracy with predictions). I do see a company producing a helmet in the near future. I don't see it being 'virtual' like we want though; more like a TrackIR paired with advanced 3D goggles, but fit into a helmet.

And that'll be the first step toward the 'virtual gaming' we all want.

civildog
07-23-2004, 11:36 PM
Cockpit, why would anyone not use it? Dammnit Jim, it's a simulator not a Nintendo!

&lt;img src="http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v304/civildog/CivilDogsignatureMASTER2.jpg"&gt;

I often think the whole world is out to get me, but then I remember that some of the smaller nations are neutral.

58th AVG "WannaBees" ...We fly where the angels fear to tread!

Dawg-of-death
07-24-2004, 12:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
It is a SIMULATION first, a game second.

Sure, it's all in your approach. Gamers fly Wonder Woman and have ready excuses for it... sim pilots fly with the cockpit on.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PC sims are very unrealistic. It would be like flying a real plane with one eye closed and the other squenting. Boeing Fighter Jet sim for instance projects the image 360 degrees around pilot . They are over a million bucks though. I just want a new vid card LOL. Tunel vision thew a 21" sony. In the "game" full real is most difficult, but in a "real aircraft" off is closer to a realistic all around since of view.

**** pit OFF............ is most relistic to a real AC.
Some will flame you and call it a name like a
Biach veiw or what ever. There is quite abit more action with it off. To fast for some I guess. As long as every one has the same and its what you like is whats important. All of the insterments you need for VFR flight are on the Virch cockpit.

My Flight instuctor will not alough me to use a PC sim(IFR traing only) ............dont tell him http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

S~

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

[This message was edited by Dawg-of-death on Fri July 23 2004 at 11:26 PM.]

Dawg-of-death
07-24-2004, 12:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by eXtra_Corrosiv:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Not even a question.

Cockpit, whether the cockpit is well represented or NOT, MUST be on.

Users of the Wonder Woman view are arcadists who are simply ignoring certain REALITIES for gaming purposes, and to suit their "comfort level".

One should NEVER, EVER, EVAH use the Wonder Woman view.

http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/wonderwoman.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I agree

Athlon 3200+ / 2x512 corsair c2pt 3200LL / radeon X800 Pro / Audigy 2 ZS / WinXP / Saitek X45<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Im about tired of the little name callers in here............. so if u cant beat um join um .........cockpit on is so slow and boaring we will call it old farts veiw........... so wonder girl or old farts, whats it gonna be? A 21" screen or 1/2 of that? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

S~

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

[This message was edited by Dawg-of-death on Fri July 23 2004 at 11:24 PM.]

Jenny_B
07-24-2004, 06:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawg-of-death:
PC sims are very unrealistic. It would be like flying a real plane with one eye closed and the other squenting. Boeing Fighter Jet sim for instance projects the image 360 degrees around pilot . They are over a million bucks though. I just want a new vid card LOL. Tunel vision thew a 21" sony. In the "game" full real is most difficult, but in a "real aircraft" off is closer to a realistic all around since of view.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Word! I took an Aerospatiale Socata Ralley for a spin IRL a few days ago (the pilot let me take the stick at a safe altitude), and found that in IL2, "cockpit off" is closer to the real thing. IRL, you can move your head close to the canopy and get a forward/down-to-the-side view not possible from a sim cockpit. Also, I seem to be taller than the simulated pilot in IL2.

Landing with the cockpit on in IL2 is extremely difficult (except in the HE-111 with its glass front) compared to IRL. The Socata pilot, with 15 yrs experience on Socatas, Pipers and Cessnas, crashed on every attempt when trying.

(BTW, this gave me good hopes for future private pilot licence training, since he assured me that landing IRL is quite easy to learn.)

--Jenny

egypt23
07-24-2004, 11:25 PM
I agree with JENNY

for the amount of REAL flying ive done (CESSNA ,PIPER , YAK9, HURRICANE ,TIGER MOTH, ULTRALIGHT) i move my head so much that the cockpit just seems to disappear anyway (you just dont notice the hardware after a while)

I fly (il2) like this

OFF:: on autopilot(goin home)
so i can admire all the great scenery and work put into making it
and also for ground attacks(love the feeling of a low ground attack)

ON:: for dog fighting
(but i cheat and go EXTERNAL PADLOCK for enemies and friendlies ("movie style",i love that, one of the things that puts this sim apart from others

also i use IR2 WHICH IS GREAT FOR ALL STYLES(almost get the feeling of real head movement

IMHO

CHEERS

Dawg-of-death
07-25-2004, 12:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jenny_B:

(BTW, this gave me good hopes for future private pilot licence training, since he assured me that landing IRL is quite easy to learn.)

--Jenny
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


IL2 has inspired me to learn to fly. I should solo this coming week. Kind of scary...........
I'm told butter flies go away once your in the air by your self. Wow http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

One pilot in my sim today scored 6500 points.
Maybe we should try old F arts view. LOL



S~

Bad-MF(Mongrel Fighter) AKA .......Dawg-of-death

[This message was edited by Dawg-of-death on Sat July 24 2004 at 11:56 PM.]

56th BMAC
07-25-2004, 12:59 AM
Flying with a locked pit is the most difficult, no doubt. If that's how you get immersion from this sim, that's great and that's your choice. Realism, as stated before, is hard to get in a computer game so you have to go for what is the most realistic. I think flying in open pit servers is the most realistic cuz you can turn the pit on to view instruments and then turn it off to gain a more realistic view. Before I get hammered for stating open pit gives you a more realistic view, consider the following:

Two members of my squad are active millitary pilots and our honorary CO fliew P-47's and P-51's in WWII and all three say open pit is more realistic. That right there ends any argument as far as what's more realistic. Difficulty is a different story...

http://56thfg.net/Operations/squadavatars/BMacsSigPic.jpg

RS_Shiesty
07-25-2004, 01:50 AM
Cockpit off generally gets such a bad reputation since its where most of the 'lowest common denomenator' types go first. I find a game with experienced cockpit-off pilots plenty fun for me. Cockpit-off servers with the run-of-the-mill crowd tend to be irritating at best, but that will happen with any server. I think the people influence the enjoyment even more than the settings as the cockpit-on servers generally have a higher maturity level of players (not always, of course.)

http://www.il2airracing.com/images/IL2AirRacing.gif (http://www.il2airracing.com)

Jenny_B
07-25-2004, 06:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dawg-of-death:
IL2 has inspired me to learn to fly. I should solo this coming week. Kind of scary...........
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wasn't it a funny feeling to get in the cockpit the first time, and realize that simming has already made you familiar with the instruments?

As a balloonist, I knew the vario and altimeter before, but for obvoius reasons we don't have an artificial horizon or airspeedo. The latter would, of course, always read zero as you float along with the wind.

--Jenny

Tully__
07-25-2004, 07:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
It is a SIMULATION first, a game second.

Sure, it's all in your approach. Gamers fly Wonder Woman and have ready excuses for it... sim pilots fly with the cockpit on.

http://www.naysayers.com/9jg52/wonderwoman.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For you. For me it's game with aspects of a simulator. For others it may be different.

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