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SAF_ginner
03-14-2004, 08:26 PM
no one will never produce fighter with turnings like fw in fb. when turning flymodel in fb will be little bit real, then also will be a fw historicaly famous and known like one of the worst turning fighter ever. but in history is nothing like that - so fw turnings possibilities are modeled totaly wrong!!! it need to repair! fw is too famous fighter,it must be one of the best modeled... certainly fw never turns like spit or yak. but with rolling rate + power + weapons it was an dangerous felow. not like in fb... snack for everybody who concentrates to shoot him. we want focke wulf - no more maddox wulf!!!

SAF_ginner
03-14-2004, 08:26 PM
no one will never produce fighter with turnings like fw in fb. when turning flymodel in fb will be little bit real, then also will be a fw historicaly famous and known like one of the worst turning fighter ever. but in history is nothing like that - so fw turnings possibilities are modeled totaly wrong!!! it need to repair! fw is too famous fighter,it must be one of the best modeled... certainly fw never turns like spit or yak. but with rolling rate + power + weapons it was an dangerous felow. not like in fb... snack for everybody who concentrates to shoot him. we want focke wulf - no more maddox wulf!!!

Fennec_P
03-14-2004, 08:51 PM
If this is actually a serious post, you should learn that the early FW-190 had a very poor sustained turn rate, as well as high stalling speed. This is due to the relatively high wing loading, low aspect ratio, and thin wing design.

I have not tried it in AEP, but in tests of previous versions, the FW-190s turn performance matches or exceeds historical data. For early versions, 23-24 seconds at 1000m, and for later versions, 21-22 seconds at 1000m.

When a history book or TV show refers to the FW-190s "incredible manueverability", it refers to roll rate, and the lightness of controls at high speeds. Both of these are modelled in FB, even excessively so. Roll rate exceeds historical values, and the controls are light enough to permit 25G turns at 800km/h.

Sustained turning ability and low speed handling in all FW versions is atrocious (save for maybe Ta-152), but this is rarely mentioned in the media. However, if you read pilot accounts, you will find that many comment about the turn and stalling problems in the FW.

SAF_ginner
03-14-2004, 09:09 PM
my dear fennec_p, the problems were the same like pilots have with other planes. or please tell me were you read about this big staling and turning problems? like i sad fw turns normaly, sure not like yak, but it was never so immpotent like in fb!!!

Zen--
03-14-2004, 10:19 PM
Respectfully, the FW is fine. I fly it daily, almost exclusively since IL2 original. In AEP the D9 is a very capable fighter and while it doesn't turn like a Spit, it turns well enough to be competitive as an E fighter.

It's hard to find a better modelled plane in terms of it's complexity, it's depth and it's optimal performance band. Once you master the D9, it's quite a deadly weapon imho.

-Zen-

WWMaxGunz
03-14-2004, 10:36 PM
SAF, you got a lot of learning to do. FW is not for slow flying or slow fighting. It turns well if you turn in the vertical and not nearly flat or stupid nose high turns unless the nose is really high. Learn wingovers. learn to use the rollrate. FW can start a turn quicker faster than most any other because it can get the wings banked faster but you have to execute the turn properly or you will bleed speed badly. Get the nose down if you're not up and winging over. If you turn nose low then drop power to start the turn and bring it back up smoothly as you follow through. There must be a start turn motion and a follow through. Bank and yank is for people who don't know WTF they're doing, it works on crap sims but IL2/FB is not a crap sim.

Spend time learning the planes out of combat. Lots of time. Jumping into missions or worse, DF to learn flying is a guarantee of bad impressions and picking up bad habits. Even German pilots did some hours of training before combat. Even aces did familiarization when they changed planes. The FW's can be flown right. Get someone online to teach you the just flying part if you need it so and can find someone who will. They exist, at least people who do fly FW's well online. If they can do it then do you think you are right with your B&W post? Answer is no.


Neal

VW-IceFire
03-14-2004, 10:37 PM
Even with all of the new fighers in the game...the FW190 family is still quite possibly the most deadly fighters in the game. High speed manuverability, best roll rate of any WWII fighter, and heavy firepower sufficient to go head to head with anything save a flying Battleship and win.

Work at it...its modeled quite nicely but you need to learn what its good at and what its not.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

LuftKuhMist
03-14-2004, 10:40 PM
FW190A did have a poor turn rate and was prone to stalls without even a warning, the wing just snapped down. The main problem with this plane are the stall and spin characteristics. Early models also overheated if my memory serves me.

Only a moron will turn fight in a 190. Keep it very fast and you will have a deadly plane. It was like that in reality, if you want references just ask.

In my honest opinion each great plane has its characteristics, like the mustang. Keep it high and it will be unkillable. Lowalt it's FW fodder. FW, keep it fast and turn the less possible. FW190 is a plane for real war operations also, not a free-for-all dogfighting server where it will definitively be cannon fodder if it fights without advantage.

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/MOMS.gif http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/grab0004.jpg

crazyivan1970
03-14-2004, 10:54 PM
I say it`s a pilot http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

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http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

VF-2_John_Banks
03-15-2004, 09:26 AM
The Mustang is alot but not cannon fodder to FWs at low alt! I have yet to see a German plane to outturn me in a Mustang. FW's can outfly it by flying faster and away from me but i have never been cannon fodder. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif What server settings do you usually fly?

03-15-2004, 10:39 AM
The best thing you can do in a slow Fw 190 is SPEED UP. Don't bother trying to turn fight below 400 kmh.

Let's look at 1-circle* turn rates at 1000m.

At 260 kmh,
Fw 190A-4 (clean): 9.4 deg/s
Fw 190A-4 (full flaps): 14.2 deg/s
Spit LFVB (clean): 15.8 deg/s
Spit LFVB (full flaps): 15.1 deg/s

At 450 kmh
Fw 190A-4: 11.9 deg/s
Spit LFVB: 10.6 deg/s

Against Spitfires especially, force the enemy to go faster than optimum for their aircraft. Not only can you sustain a better turn rate above 410 kmh, you can outroll the Spit. Try a high speed scissors against one without ever dropping below 410 kmh and you'll make angles, guaranteed.

Another Fw 190 advantage that that the charts don't show is its ability to dump energy FAST. You can force overshoots by snap rolling, if you're feeling extra sporty.



* rates for 1-circle used because the data is readily available. It's nearly the same as sustained rates.

zugfuhrer
03-15-2004, 11:57 AM
Take a look at IL2 Compare. That is facts in the game.
It may not reflect the true facts, but it is the facts in the game.
You have to adapt to them. Sometimes the adaption is to stay hidden and do a sneak attack if you dont get killed.

PikeBishop
03-17-2004, 07:07 AM
Dear Neal,

We meet again and I was very interested in your FW explanations. Perfect and to the point sir! I do find it interesting to look at simulators now being that accurate that I feel like a real pilot trying to explain to a nooobie about how to survive.....I feel like a real veteran saying "now son, listen to me........."
The principle of learning by experience has never been more evident in the games of the last 10yrs. I just wish that I was 30 years younger!!
Just think...our friend here will be like us in 6 months teaching someone else. Unlike us I often think of all those poor sods in WWII who lasted 5 mins in their first combat and never got another chance!!

regards,

SLP.

WWMaxGunz
03-17-2004, 10:04 AM
Hi Pike!

Well I did most of my really good learning back 5 and 6 years ago. I had great fortune to be in a time and place where there were patient teachers who were pro or pro quality. I also had some hours of if not stick time then wheel time and access to training in systems and flight that few ever get back in 86-88. But for the combat ACM's and a lot of both basic and fine points it was at the Delphi FSF before most of the real heavies left. Being in a squad now that has a few doesn't hurt either. Just wish I was up to dealing with it all more actively these last few years but some things age a person very fast in not good ways.

30 years younger? Whooo-hooo! That would make a real difference! Possibly avoid some big mistakes if I knew to! OTOH, make new ones most likely but I'd have fun doing so!


Neal

Saburo_0
03-17-2004, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cosmokart:
The best thing you can do in a slow Fw 190 is SPEED UP. Don't bother trying to turn fight below 400 kmh.

Let's look at 1-circle* turn rates at 1000m.

At 260 kmh,
Fw 190A-4 (clean): 9.4 deg/s
Fw 190A-4 (full flaps): 14.2 deg/s
Spit LFVB (clean): 15.8 deg/s
Spit LFVB (full flaps): 15.1 deg/s

At 450 kmh
Fw 190A-4: 11.9 deg/s
Spit LFVB: 10.6 deg/s

Against Spitfires especially, force the enemy to go faster than optimum for their aircraft. Not only can you sustain a better turn rate above 410 kmh, you can outroll the Spit. Try a high speed scissors against one without ever dropping below 410 kmh and you'll make angles, guaranteed.

Another Fw 190 advantage that that the charts don't show is its ability to dump energy FAST. You can force overshoots by snap rolling, if you're feeling extra sporty.



* rates for 1-circle used because the data is readily available. It's nearly the same as sustained rates.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You! Copied & saved to my FW docs.

03-17-2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Saburo_0:
Thank You! Copied & saved to my FW docs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No problem, mate!

If you want to come up with numbers yourself, it's not too hard.

IL-2 Compare displays the turn performance in terms of time per 360 degree circle. This is the standard 1940's VVs way to measure turn performance.

One complete circle may not be quite the same as sustained performance, but if we TRUST that the IL-2 Compare test pilots flew their turns at a constant speed, then the figures are indeed the same thing.

So, to convert time-per-360-degree-turn into degrees-per-second:

Given a turn rate of 25 degrees for a full circle, divide 360 by 25 -- the result is a "sustained" turn rate of 14.4 degrees per second. Hope that helps! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Red_Baroness
03-17-2004, 01:54 PM
Oh yes, by all means. Keep your nose down when turning sharply in a Focke, you can do flaps at combat or not, depends on your skill.

Remember, it's a FOCKE... not a FOKKER... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

I have to keep telling myself that when I fly the darn thing. "Focke, not Fokker....Focke, not a Fokker...*wing stall* OH FOCKE IT ALL TO... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif"

Speed is most definitely of the essence here too when flying the big plane. Keep it up or you'll be with the folks in Valhalla. You can't out turn a Spit in the thing at all, but if you get your cannons on him in a B&Z maneuver (preferrably after you do a half-loop, upside-down dive roll..erhem) then there's nothing but Spilt-ners (heheheh) left of that RAF plane. Then dive, pull back on the stick for a shallow climb and WATCH YOUR BLEEPING AIRSPEED....keep it high even in the climb and the Spit "should not" be able to touch you.

My question on the D9 series is their speed - going 700 or so on the speed bar there is no way in hoohah anything should be able to keep up with me, save the jets. But online, well, different story. What's the deal with that?

And yep Neal, Wing stalls. I hate's em. I'd like to know where the info on the stall-happiness of the Focke was found, perhaps in a book so I can read it myself with my own two moss-green peepers?

Red

----,---'--&gt;@
Karena von Richthofen
"Velvet glove, iron fist"
Deustches Eisen

WWMaxGunz
03-17-2004, 03:20 PM
There's a nice quote in the Shaw book from a P-38 driver. I'm not good at remembering just where everything I've read since I find out why and remember that instead. I do remember reading that rookie FW pilots down low would crank their engines up to chase an Allied plane, turn and go into spins from which they didn't have the alt to pull out of. They were excited and forgot their training which was too short to impress deeply not to do that.

Why is the massive torque of the plane at full power. You get near a stall with all that twist and it will do the rest for you. Esp if you're slow in a turn and I believe the kph readouts fool a lot of Americans into feeling like 300 is fast when it ain't. Sure, you can turn at that speed just not as hard as you think. It's about 190 mph which for a heavy WWII fighter is way down low.

I get the same basic thing in the P-51. Get too slow with the power cranked, turn just a shade too hard and if you're real quick you can look up at the ground. I wasn't the first time and spun around twice in the time it took to yell YOWWW! It started to go into an uncontrolled spin after the first roll but came out with throttle down and proper early spin recovery (I let go of the stick) but got my adrenals working I can tell ya!

I think the P-47 has enough weight to make this less noticeable but I'm sure I could make it work. Just not as nasty quick as a lighter powerhouse plane.

I've read that the FW's have thin wing profiles and so do the P-51's. Better speed but worse AOA related characteristics as a factor. Maybe that's got a lot to do with the suddenness?

I look at the 109-K's and see the torque potential with high torque to weight but I dunno about the wings or any rep. Maybe only very good pilots got to fly the K's... you don't get a rep if the no one screws up. Well, most 109's have wings with very good AOA ability but again I don't know if the K's wings were thinned down. Just about the power.

I didn't get a lot of that in EAW except for the quick pinwheel spins for pulling too much stick for the conditions I was in, generally too slow or too fast. Too fast is worse, IMO, because you have more energy for the spin to use. I had gotten in that sim to where I could feel the edge and stay just inside, spun very rarely when I'd get greedy and fixated. Taught me a lot.


Neal

03-17-2004, 07:38 PM
Agreed w/ MaxGunz. Oleg seems to have turned up the torque effects for AEP 2.00. It still isn't enough to ground loop, but you do need heavy feet to make hard turns in some planes.

Bf 109s especially require almost full right rudder to keep the ball centered in a hard right turn at full power. I'm not sure if the hardcore online 109 drivers have caught on to this or not yet, because you can leave the pedals centered and the plane just mushes sideways without spinning out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway, one of you Yak drivers ought try it out... sucker a 109 into a hard slow righthand turn and then, using your superior climb in righthand battle turn, force them to raise their nose until they flip over. Just don't try the same stunt to the left!

WWMaxGunz
03-18-2004, 12:18 AM
It would be good to know if this can work vs a 109 or if it is something to watch for in the 109. It would also affect how fast you can gain speed and top speed if you don't fly with the ball centered.

Against the 190's it was a used thing by at least one pilot and saved his life.

Against every plane it pays to know which way of turn is favored by torque and precession. I see a post saying we don't have precession and hey I have to keep the nose on heading in climbs and moreso in steep and slow climbs. That is a precession effect from the prop disk not going straight into the relative wind. Should it be more, I can't say but I do notice and it's something not to forget.

Maybe improper rudder and precession can cancel? I know that many is the time I lose track of how I have my cheap stick twisted and catch myself anymore. just not paying enough attention while trying to line up shots. It's something I have to retrain myself on.


Neal