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LimpingMan
03-27-2004, 12:02 PM
I would like to give props to those who've voiced criticisms of Far Cry as a modder's tool. FarCry is the best fps so far, I love it.

I would move my mod over to FarCry. However, I will not even start looking at sandbox,etc until I see more. That means I'm waiting for April before I waste my time. Here is why:

www.bikiniwarfare.com (http://www.bikiniwarfare.com)
Unfortunately, I had to stop working on this bf42 mod due to vertex shader bugs relating to animation. For some reason not documented or understood, I was able to work for a time with bf42 without trouble. Then when I changed video cards, my mods would crash from anything with animation(vehicles and rigid things ok). Others had this problem too. I posted the error report on all the boards. Some people could export, some people simply could not(following the exact same steps). I also have the screenshots from my old video card to prove I could get things ingame. So, I had already learned much about bf42 editing things and nearly have a successful mod when it all came crashing down(literally).

The moral of the story? I should've known from the start when BF42 came out and Dice/EA were slow to help modders. Even when they released BattleCraft about a year after, there was no official Max exporters. The community basically made all the tools and wiki. I will NOT have this happen to me again. Slow mod support = NO mod support in the end. Moreover, if a tool isn't "official," then it isn't REAL.

Am I too critical? HL2 promises to have everything a mod developer wants when it comes. They have a track record of good mod(CS,DOD,NS, and the list goes on) support and promise even more. Do you guys think they will include ONLY a level editor with theirs?

I can wait, patience is a virtue. If I can't change every poly, texture, animation, and shader, I wait for a mod engine that does. COD and others like it, I have already ignored without even bothering.

I'm already at 90% modder's disapproval for this one since 3dsmax exporters weren't available at release and are coming a month later(if that). It has the smell of Dice/EA's slow mod/exporter/sdk support. Before someone starts saying I'm too impatient.....It's not like they didn't have the Max exporters to make the game already. Do you imagine UTK4, Doom3, and now HL2 coming out with no 3d exporters?

I'm holding out some hope, but if I only have to wait a month or 2 for TRUE mod support out of the box in the form of HL2, I will.

-Limper

LimpingMan
03-27-2004, 12:02 PM
I would like to give props to those who've voiced criticisms of Far Cry as a modder's tool. FarCry is the best fps so far, I love it.

I would move my mod over to FarCry. However, I will not even start looking at sandbox,etc until I see more. That means I'm waiting for April before I waste my time. Here is why:

www.bikiniwarfare.com (http://www.bikiniwarfare.com)
Unfortunately, I had to stop working on this bf42 mod due to vertex shader bugs relating to animation. For some reason not documented or understood, I was able to work for a time with bf42 without trouble. Then when I changed video cards, my mods would crash from anything with animation(vehicles and rigid things ok). Others had this problem too. I posted the error report on all the boards. Some people could export, some people simply could not(following the exact same steps). I also have the screenshots from my old video card to prove I could get things ingame. So, I had already learned much about bf42 editing things and nearly have a successful mod when it all came crashing down(literally).

The moral of the story? I should've known from the start when BF42 came out and Dice/EA were slow to help modders. Even when they released BattleCraft about a year after, there was no official Max exporters. The community basically made all the tools and wiki. I will NOT have this happen to me again. Slow mod support = NO mod support in the end. Moreover, if a tool isn't "official," then it isn't REAL.

Am I too critical? HL2 promises to have everything a mod developer wants when it comes. They have a track record of good mod(CS,DOD,NS, and the list goes on) support and promise even more. Do you guys think they will include ONLY a level editor with theirs?

I can wait, patience is a virtue. If I can't change every poly, texture, animation, and shader, I wait for a mod engine that does. COD and others like it, I have already ignored without even bothering.

I'm already at 90% modder's disapproval for this one since 3dsmax exporters weren't available at release and are coming a month later(if that). It has the smell of Dice/EA's slow mod/exporter/sdk support. Before someone starts saying I'm too impatient.....It's not like they didn't have the Max exporters to make the game already. Do you imagine UTK4, Doom3, and now HL2 coming out with no 3d exporters?

I'm holding out some hope, but if I only have to wait a month or 2 for TRUE mod support out of the box in the form of HL2, I will.

-Limper

ScopeGlare
03-27-2004, 12:11 PM
point being ?

Nostradamus92
03-27-2004, 12:12 PM
I understand your concern, but in my honest opinion it is unjustified.

Crytek arent coming from the outside to the inside with a big bang an Dice did....i think that is where you need to find there difference irst of all....Crytek has planned their engine to be the basis of a lot of mods..I remember a dev. saying that he really hoped for a lot of singleplayer mods to come out for FarCry.

Now when i look back at the multiplayer beta, I think... it really has the potentil to be a great mp, but it aint all that great, and I think that crytek knows this....it was just rushed out SO that modders could more easily make multiplayer mods and further increase the sales and lifetime....
It's a shame that we have to wait a month for an sdk, but it's better to have something well documented, and from experience, I would trust in what crytek says, cause they keep their promises, more than the average game developer.

Cheers

------------------------------------------
Fighting for peace is like ****ing for virginity

Mangapork-"the CryEditor makes me mess my pants."

Socket-man
03-27-2004, 12:24 PM
Hey Limper,
Im not too confident in HL2 being released anytime soon. And its anyone's guess how moddable it will be right out of the box.
Besides, i recall you saying bikiniwarfare was a side project, something to do in your spare time. So why would you want to "change every poly, texture, shader" etc etc.
Anyway, it remains to be seen exactly how much of the engine can be altered and how easily its moddable. But crytek is the best bet right now.

thedudemanguy
03-27-2004, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimpingMan:
If I can't change every poly, texture, animation, and shader, I wait for a mod engine that does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WELL... DUH.


None of us are interested in modding in an engine you can't change assets for, obviously we'll be able to and they'll have full tools. Crytek is practically selling the engine here more then the game. I haven't looked at sandbox in depth yet but there are 3dsmax plugins for polybump creation...

LimpingMan
03-27-2004, 01:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScopeGlare:
point being ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:It's hard to get excited about FarCry as a modding tool.

Chrisps455
03-27-2004, 02:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimpingMan:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ScopeGlare:
point being ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

:It's hard to get excited about FarCry as a modding tool.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree - ok so some exporter plugins dont exist, but the map maker is damned good for a beta edition, the scripts are accessable (lets face it, they are hardly going to release the games source code).

On the BF42 front.... there are an absolute ton of mods - it may have been a bit lacking in official tools, but the community tools are fine.

Maybe you should just sit down and try to master them?

LimpingMan
03-27-2004, 02:42 PM
Call me a cynic and if I'm wrong, I'm happy to be wrong. Don't misunderstand, I loved the game, it is the best FPS IMHO by FAR http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I also like sandbox. But, the max tools they released are for the normal map thing only and as more of a demo of the concept. You can NOT export any new 3d model into sandbox and that is a FACT AFAIK.

My cynicism comes from all the resent games promising mod support following initial release. I ignore promises like that now. When, "mods" are just a new buzzword for some idiot marketing guy to blather(btw, No, I don't think most marketing guys are idiots either). How many of those games ACTUALLY delivered for us modders? Did COD? BF42?

While I wait for a "mod feature," I imagine them furiously working to disable, limit capabilities, and/or essentially break stuff used to make the game great in the first place. Thats what's been taught to me by the last 10 fps developers to have a "hit game with modability."

If what Crytek promises comes true, I will make a mod of my own with it and be happy doing so. If there's warts with the engine, I'll love those warts! As long as I'm suffering the same warts as the devs did, not new warts created just for the mod community. I wanted to say these things with the hopes of a better understanding between modder and developer. So they know what modders really want and what we've had to deal with in the past. Sorry if this dampens things, that is not my intention.

-Limper

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by thedudemanguy:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LimpingMan:
If I can't change every poly, texture, animation, and shader, I wait for a mod engine that does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WELL... DUH.


None of us are interested in modding in an engine you can't change assets for, obviously we'll be able to and they'll have full tools. Crytek is practically selling the engine here more then the game. I haven't looked at sandbox in depth yet but there are 3dsmax plugins for polybump creation...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

socrates656
03-27-2004, 02:55 PM
i can't say ive ever heard of any game company releasing it sourcecode. Maybe shareware games but no commercial games.

And there is a good reason for that. People that make trainers and cheats for the game would love to have the sourcecode. I was told by a game developer for avp2 alongtime ago that the reason why they don't release it is becaise of the copywrite and also the people who would abuse that code and make the game into a cheaters paradice.

Now I'm not saying that without the game code people can't make multiplayer trainers or program there own cheats into the game. Because that is still very easy, but it would give the game hacker the ability to even bypass the patching code and punkbuster code. No peice of software is perfect. If you are a C++ programmer yourself you would know this they teach you all about this in your first selmester in university/college.

im glad the sourcecode wont be released that would be utterly moronic to do so.

as for the modding part.. well give it time. Im shure some programmers will make some tools for help the modding community out.

http://srsquad.net/sigs/socsig1.jpg
Farcry - Active | &lt;-$c&gt; - Your Taxi Driver - .Sr
Lw - Retired | &lt;-$c2&gt; - Your Gunner - TnT, .Sr

[This message was edited by socrates656 on Sat March 27 2004 at 02:03 PM.]

jarin26
03-27-2004, 03:03 PM
The way I see it.

Why would they release tools that would allow you to make a whole new game for free? When they are trying to make money from the engine for the first time to paying developers?

I reckon we *may* get some type of model exporter but I bet that is about it. I doubt we will get any C code etc

Int he end we may have to hack int he features we want. Like the good old days http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- Jarin

LimpingMan
03-27-2004, 03:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chrisps455:

On the BF42 front.... there are an absolute ton of mods - it may have been a bit lacking in official tools, but the community tools are fine.

Maybe you should just sit down and try to master them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hah nice try at an insult, except I have in fact done great work with a couple bf42 mods since the start. I'm not going to waste more time only to come to the same conclusions. Suffice it to say, after a year's experience, I have a laundry list of why you don't want to mod with bf42.

DC, EOD, GC, while great mods, are all bipedal men proportions made with the same old bf42 skeleton. You cannot do ANYTHING ELSE with that skeleton. Does every character in your mind's eye look, move, and act like the bf42 soldier? If your mod is YET ANOTHER BORING, LAME A**, COUNTERSTRIKE/MILITARY-SIM/WW2 RIPOFF, then by all means mod with it. Even GC has to use that skeleton even though they'll have aliens, etc.

I worked with the star wars GC mod team. A great team, great mod, they would say a lot more negative things that I haven't even mentioned.

I can think of a million mods that would be great for that engine that have absolutely no chance of being just from that one skeleton problem alone.

-Limper

LimpingMan
03-27-2004, 03:26 PM
heh, I'd be happy just to be able to change the art, sound, and levels. A lot can be changed with creativity and a little scripting. I understand them not giving away the engine, I don't mind using similar code, else I'd pick another game that works differently.

I rant about "counterstrike ripoffs" etc in the past but what made original CS great was that it looked and felt different from HL and the other multiplayers. AFAIK they didn't need source code or hacks to do what they did.

-Limper

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by socrates656:
i can't say ive ever heard of any game company releasing it sourcecode. Maybe shareware games but no commercial games.

And there is a good reason for that. People that make trainers and cheats for the game would love to have the sourcecode. I was told by a game developer for avp2 alongtime ago that the reason why they don't release it is becaise of the copywrite and also the people who would abuse that code and make the game into a cheaters paradice.

Now I'm not saying that without the game code people can't make multiplayer trainers or program there own cheats into the game. Because that is still very easy, but it would give the game hacker the ability to even bypass the patching code and punkbuster code. No peice of software is perfect. If you are a C++ programmer yourself you would know this they teach you all about this in your first selmester in university/college.

im glad the sourcecode wont be released that would be utterly moronic to do so.

as for the modding part.. well give it time. Im shure some programmers will make some tools for help the modding community out.

http://srsquad.net/sigs/socsig1.jpg
Farcry - Active | &lt;-$c&gt; - Your Taxi Driver - .Sr
Lw - Retired | &lt;-$c2&gt; - Your Gunner - TnT, .Sr

[This message was edited by socrates656 on Sat March 27 2004 at 02:03 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Madmccoy
03-27-2004, 05:00 PM
They are not releasing the source code to the game.

A Software Development Kit is a suite of tools that allow for the "modification" of an engine; they let you tweak with the implementation of certain facets, but they will /not/ let you change the engine, itself.

Source Code = entire game.


SDK = interface to the game's features, such as graphics, sound, music, skeletal animations... etc.

The source code would be infinitely more valuable, because by studying the source code, you could see how they did their super awesome poly bump technolgoy. That's why you're not getting the source code. ;p

Only the SDK, which allows you to /use/ Polybump without actually seeing how it works.